Local UTH is broken and I want to know how to exploit

Quote: Romes

Dan, you didn't answer a couple of my questions...

1) I'm offering you a blackjack game where I'll pay you ONE MILLION DOLLARS if you ever get a blackjack! It's just my "unwritten" house rules that I removed all of the aces from the deck. Would I be a scammer if I didn't tell you about the unwritten rule and invited you to come play my game and take your chance at WINNING BIG???

I wanted to address this good point of Romes. I will say such a game aspect or pay table element is an impossibility by gaming regs. Case in point: One time GLI gave a math report on a game that was developed by a fellow forum member here (Royal Deal Poker, Mike A.) that I assisted on with math reports. The GLI initial report had a "vacant" or impossible pay table line entry of this very nature. GLI submitted math on a pay table that had a straight flush below a royal flush, but because of the nature of the special decks (with no card lower than a ten), no straight flush was possible in the game, as it would be a full Royal in all cases. So the lab report had a straight flush pay line item with its correct mathematical frequency of "0", but was unacceptable to gaming approval as an alluring bet pay line entry that was a semantic impossibility to exist for the player. The report was revised as a result, and GLI changed internal procedures as a result.

2) If the casino hypothetically had an "unwritten" house rule that no one was allowed to win... i.e. they just didn't pay out anyone that actually won and kicked people out... would this put them finally in the "scammer" or "unfair" category?

Yes, but no such casino would exist. People play because of the possibility to win, to have a fair shot (and should have a "fair shot") to win. In such a scenario, NO player would go to the casino, as they might as well just donate their paychecks right at the cage. 99% of players don't get backed off, as they're generally legitimate recreational players, or players of craps, poker games, and Roulette, where there's no back-offs for counting.

Quote: Paigowdan

In such a scenario, NO player would go to the casino, as they might as well just donate their paychecks right at the cage.

Isn't that what casinos are already doing / trying to do?

No they're not, which is why I don't fully buy statements that claim "casinos hate winners." They live on a mix of winners and losers, trusting the house edge to perform its math overall.

I've NEVER had a problem with any big winning sessions on Pai Gow poker, on UTH with multiple four-of-a-kinds on green action, on High Card Flush (a $3,000 win with a seven card flush), or ever on a crap table with a hot streak. One long winning streak on Blackjack was where I got "extendedly lucky" through negative counts, and they certainly checked. I was always paid, and given my comps. Most players never have any trial when collecting their winnings, though most players aren't APs, but legitimate lucky variance winners.

Quote: Paigowdan

No they're not, which is why I don't fully buy statements that claim "casinos hate winners." They live on a mix of winners and losers, trusting the house edge to perform its math overall.

I've NEVER had a problem with any big winning sessions on Pai Gow poker, on UTH with multiple four-of-a-kinds on green action, on High Card Flush (a $3,000 win with a seven card flush), or ever on a crap table with a hot streak. One long winning streak on Blackjack was where I got "extendedly lucky" through negative counts, and they certainly checked. I was always paid, and given my comps. Most players never have any trial when collecting their winnings, though most players aren't APs, but legitimate lucky variance winners.

I think you are ignoring the point that others are making. It is great that this is your experience, but others have had different outcomes. I personally know of people who have been barred from games because they had won "too much". I know of someone who lost $5k playing craps and was barred. He was doing nothing wrong, but someone at the casino felt is was a threat. Even though he had lost. Casinos are often run and managed by people who make very poor, illogical decisions. To ignore that fact the way you have is disingenuous.

I also take issue with the way this thread started. The OP brought up a hypothetical situation and asked the forum for advice. You immediately jumped in and accused him of being a criminal that deserved to be raped. Your personal issues do not justify this, and you owe him an apology. The OP then addressed your accusations and stated that he did, in fact, alert management to the issue and was ignored with prejudice. You continued ignoring this, framing him as a cheater. You even implied that it is up to the dealer to protect the game. In this case he would have had to refused to deal, likely resulting in termination. Does that make sense to you?

If you presented your perspective with an open mind and without passing judgement or advocating violence, it would probably go over much better. I personally agree that casinos are businesses and should be allowed to operate in a "for profit" manner. What I don't agree with is that they should break the law in their enforcement of their "house rules". Casinos that force players to show ID, refused to pay bets, backroom people, etc. are breaking the law and in many cases have to pay hefty settlements. It seems like you choose to just ignore that entire world of reality and instead stick to the idealized notion you have of a "fair game". Many (not all) casinos have no desire to deal a fair game, they want to win. And to have someone else win is just not allowed. This is a reality.

Well said jopke.

Quote: Mosca

Quote: Paigowdan

First of all, if you're a casino dealer, and you're looking to exploit casino game weaknesses in order to "work" with player-agents to exploit marked cards as a situation "rife with potential exploits," then you should be behind bars, with your backside being rife with potential exploits from your fellow cell mates. Based on what we're hearing, this is the thing that really should be exploited.

Prison rape is still rape. the punishment is time out of society, not physical and sexual brutality. The culture of "you get what you deserve" is part of the reason it perpetuates without consequences: "He's a prisoner, what did you expect?"

Surprising coming from you, Dan.

PRISON RAPE, nice of you to condone any act of RAPE. You do/maybe realize the point of prison in the United States of America. The purpose of the courts of sending an individual, found guilty of a felony by a court, is to punish them by removing them from the freedoms of participating in society and enjoying the freedoms of being part of society. Separation away from family, friends, potential victims. A time out if you will, to ponder how you harmed other and to figure out how to play nice with others and be a productive member of society. The point of prison is not to go there and become a victim to see how the victim feels.

The fact that you are a person in the casino business and feels if someone has wronged your casino that they should be victimized/traumatized says alot about where you are coming from.

I just left prison..... 5 hours ago. I work in a prison. I do not feel sympathy for the inmates. I feel sympathy for the victims. I will never wish or utter a wish for a human being to be a victim. I am way too familiar with both sides of the coin. Maybe it is time to think of the totality of what you type before you hit the enter button. And yes I have seen what a man/inmate has gone through after being raped. A television world is not the real world. We send people to prison to punish them. Their time away from society is the punishment, not the rape you wish on them. Besides, It just creates more work for me.....

Quote: jopke

I personally know of people who have been barred from games because they had won "too much". I know of someone who lost $5k playing craps and was barred. He was doing nothing wrong, but someone at the casino felt is was a threat.

There have to be one or more missing elements to explain how a casino feels threatened by someone losing $5,000 at the craps table.

Quote: SanchoPanza

There have to be one or more missing elements to explain how a casino feels threatened by someone losing $5,000 at the craps table.

Agreed. I've played next to people losing (and winning) more than $5,000 in the span of an hour, and the crew didn't bat an eye. I play mostly on the Strip, though -- if this was in a regional location that couldn't actually bankroll big action, maybe that explains it. But then they shouldn't have taken the buy-in in the first place. I don't get it.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Dan,

Thanks for the response. I think we're still talking past each other a bit, so I'd like to address just that part. On the illegal/unacceptable player shenanigans side, I place (from your various examples and others);

Shiners, cig cams, confederates reading cards behind the table and signaling, etc.
Light wands
Daubing/marking/bending cards
Manipulating the dealer into edge-sortable configs aka Ivey
capping/pinching
collusion w/dealer or other players
electronic devices that manipulate the machine or shuffler somehow

On the "use what is environmentally available" information side, aka "caveat casino", I put:

Cards marked or bent by a shuffle machine, bent by hand-shuffling, left in play too long with individual but normal wear, and NOT reported, or not replaced when reported.
Badly placed table components that ergonomically encourage or force flashing or HC exposure.
Dealer carelessness in exposing cards, not randomly turning cards in shuffle, not burning cards, not following protection routine in all cases and to the letter.
Games/bets not calculated correctly for mathematical exposure, exploitable design flaws, marketing promotions with +ev aspects, cheap cards with irregular edges/designs, worn cards, dice, or playing surfaces.
Countable games.

There has to be a line. I draw it where, if the player does nothing to manipulate the game, but simply plays it to the best of his/her ability by the rules the casino sets out, observing all that happens and understanding the significance of what they see, it is part of the "contract" the casino agrees to in offering the bet and the venue.

You obviously draw it elsewhere, and to my mind, it's an arbitrary line you've drawn when talking about counting or hole carding. For example, Hole-carding via a shiner or minicam or daubed cards is wrong. Hole-carding via a bad table layout, machine-damaged cards or sloppy dealer is observant. The first set should result in player banning. The second set should result in casino modification, maintenance, or retraining.

Errors in the player's favor on payouts should be made right, just as short-pays should (we've always agreed on that). It's part of the contract between the player and the house that you'll both abide by the HE of the game, and either of those changes it. But by the same token, if the house is going to use a shoe, it should be a consistent cut every shoe. If there's a min-max bet range, it should be the same for all players. If some have studied the game and are using their heads to play optimal, that's how it is, and the casino should trust time/variance and the HE to do the work.

The HE for every game IS a HOUSE edge, developed assuming EVERY player plays optimal (is an expert) every hand. Almost nobody does, so the house makes more than the math says they should expect. Either that has to be enough, or they have to change the game for everybody, not selectively cut off the experts or the winners.

Right on the dot. Fair means same treatment to everybody. No matter your skin colour, gender, religious belief and skill.

Quote: jopke

Quote: Paigowdan

No they're not, which is why I don't fully buy statements that claim "casinos hate winners." They live on a mix of winners and losers, trusting the house edge to perform its math overall.

I've NEVER had a problem with any big winning sessions on Pai Gow poker, on UTH with multiple four-of-a-kinds on green action, on High Card Flush (a $3,000 win with a seven card flush), or ever on a crap table with a hot streak. One long winning streak on Blackjack was where I got "extendedly lucky" through negative counts, and they certainly checked. I was always paid, and given my comps. Most players never have any trial when collecting their winnings, though most players aren't APs, but legitimate lucky variance winners.

I think you are ignoring the point that others are making. It is great that this is your experience, but others have had different outcomes. I personally know of people who have been barred from games because they had won "too much". I know of someone who lost $5k playing craps and was barred. He was doing nothing wrong, but someone at the casino felt is was a threat. Even though he had lost. Casinos are often run and managed by people who make very poor, illogical decisions. To ignore that fact the way you have is disingenuous.

I do not wish to minimize their points on casinos paying or not paying the casino winners in good faith, but casinos consistently do in good faith - with vast majorities of the gambling population having that experience - and with these populations patronizing casinos with absolutely no such issues, bearing this out.

The experience of some or even many at this board may be different, and may be due to the resistance that the casinos have of comfortably paying AP players that they suspect of being AP players. Remember, this forum represents an usual and small segment of players, with 99% or so of casino players not here, and them being fine with casinos and their seemingly good faith payment practices with the general population. Like I said, you go into a casino, you don't AP, you win straight, you get paid straight, and this is indeed the experience of the vast majority of casino players.

Quote: jopke

I also take issue with the way this thread started. The OP brought up a hypothetical situation and asked the forum for advice.

He got advice and opinions, including mine. First of all, If he goes out into the real casino world, one should be aware of some professional responsibilities and ramifications of being a casino employee around or involved in any gaffed play on live money game situation. What we often say here about such scenarios aside from me is "let's discuss here some math on what this scenario can possibly return - in terms of edge and possible dollars to be made." Really. There is generally zero consideration on what playing with gaffed games above mere card-counting may involve outside of the discussion that goes down the path of "we're Robin Hood's and its justified because casinos are evil, and nothing can or should happen to us."

Quote: jopke

You immediately jumped in and accused him of being a criminal that deserved to be raped. Your personal issues do not justify this, and you owe him an apology.

I have issues with crooks and rip off artists, and I think that a great many regular people often start off some paths extremely innocently at heart and at first, seeing a scenario that starts off looking like some harmless free easy money, with at least a desire to "well, let me just look into that possibility, just as a thought exercise, and bounce it around a bit....no harm here" at first. I've seen this a million times. I saw a lot of this in the casino business, both dealers and players, in a cash-rich, cash-focused action based business. I know my old friend said in a letter from the penitentiary, "I have no idea how I got here, except to say that I am amazed how I got sucked into that trail, just kicking around that idea and how to do it. Sheesh, I ended up doing it, scared at first, then thinking it was a cinch, then that I was actually safe. Ironically, he roomed with a guy that was arrested for casino fraud, who made superb counterfeit high-roller tokens before TITO. Always played uncarded AND got greedy, and his stuff was absolutely indistinguishable from casino issue - even to the coinage supplier to the casino! The supplier said, "these are our issue, I don't understand it." The casino just could not account for more chip/token inventory than they ordered, and really investigated. And the other guy, the roomie said, "The only reason I got caught was because I was too greedy. If I had taken less, I would have flown under the radar scott-free. But no." There was no "I really did wrong, I was a thief, plain and simple," instead it was viewed as a blown opportunity, and this is how he (the roomie) thought. Two very smart guys, basically very decent family people at heart, and parents. THIS whole thing was shocking, scared the crap out of me, regular work-a-day people just pulled in to some serious stuff so easily..... Two financial based thieves/verifiably (I believe) ex-thieves, and roomies then, had a lot to talk about. This is absolutely100% true, and not talked about today. Good thing my old friend XXXX was a huge guy, too, and he did mentioned rape as a threat, along with beat downs. This is what doing time entails, and how our regular life (be it working class, middle class, or Leona Hemsley-level rich) can be "supplemented" by cash at first, then by time, so to speak, before we know what happens. I have a sense that people make their beds and lie in them, and know or should know what they're really getting into. I was not so much advocating it as saying "watch the road you're going down, you clown" in a "you make your bed" sense. Apologies to all offended, but I will also say I was angry and was also ripped off, (which I'm getting the money back). If it is any consolation, I won't press criminal charges on the possibly quite traceable ID theft event, and not because of getting the money back.

Quote: jopke

The OP then addressed your accusations and stated that he did, in fact, alert management to the issue and was ignored with prejudice.

And management can be clowns, often suits without brains or heart, although many sharp people also. But it was a sense of "let me investigate THIS, this looks good 'n' juicy" take on it that I sensed. It isn't a good path. And in the industry.

Quote: jopke

You continued ignoring this, framing him as a cheater. You even implied that it is up to the dealer to protect the game. In this case he would have had to refused to deal, likely resulting in termination. Does that make sense to you?

Yes, admitted. I sensed a zero down side take on a bad situation from the start, and that no other scenario would ever be considered. I'm thinking, a] this isn't gambling or legitimate game protection, then b] are we setting up a school here for this type of thing? and c] if so, it can get very far removed from the daily realm where casinos are actually not viewed as evil and oppressive entities, but fairly simple entertainment providers and businesses, and where the vast majority of casino patron people have none of this "I won but I was denied by winnings" experiences outside of this place. Not only are casino businesses considered oppressors and blood-suckers of sorts, but most recreational gamblers (aka ploppies) are nothing but naïve and foolish losers as civilians, who may actually have a very good perspective on how to approach gambling as a recreation, and not as a for-profit personal endeavor. I mean, who is a gambling hall a for profit for? Gamblers are supposed to pay a house edge and be fine with it.

Quote: jopke

If you presented your perspective with an open mind and without passing judgement or advocating violence, it would probably go over much better.

I don't have an open mind; I think people can easily go down paths where they'll end up in trouble, and at times with little more sympathy than a "he made his bed, the poor soul. He signed for it."

Quote: jopke

I personally agree that casinos are businesses and should be allowed to operate in a "for profit" manner.

This is good to hear. I might not fully believe this, though.....

Quote: jopke

What I don't agree with is that they should break the law in their enforcement of their "house rules".

Ah, there we go. I got to the point where I acknowledge most casino houses are fully law-abiding and regulated business. You say, "I personally agree that casinos are businesses and should be allowed to operate in a 'for profit' manner," followed by "Casinos are crooks who break the law by enforcing their house rules." The house rules are to ensure same fair play from BOTH casino dealer and player: Neither side counts (to include preferential shuffling); neither side utilizes marked cards; neither side edge sorts, etc.

Quote: jopke

Casinos that force players to show ID, refused to pay bets, backroom people, etc. are breaking the law and in many cases have to pay hefty settlements. It seems like you choose to just ignore that entire world of reality and instead stick to the idealized notion you have of a "fair game".

Casinos:
a) First of all, casinos don't force people to show ID unless there's a gun to your head, which doesn't happen. I use my ID or players card ID when buying in every time, and you can also play without ID being an issue at all, unless tax forms are required because you won that big. If the casino is asking to see ID from a player, it's a fair bet that something is indeed going on with that player, otherwise they wouldn't request it or need to. 99% of gamblers don't have this ID issue, and or would show it with offense or an issue, such as tax reporting on a jackpot win.
b) refusing to pay bets. This is not a common issue, and again, if they're refusing to pay out a bet, something is going on that they find suspicious.
c) Backrooming? Like in a Scorsese movie with Joe Pesci and Robert DeNiro? This is over the top. Here I'd say this goes up to 99.9...% of players who never had this issue, being backroomed, or even detained. If you're detained, there's a reason for it that probably won't be so innocent.
d) if they do wrongfully backroom, I hope they pay a fortune to the victim of it, I truly do.

Quote: jopke

Many (not all) casinos have no desire to deal a fair game, they want to win.

Not the case. Most casinos do deal a very fair game, AND have no problem with paying off fair players who also played a fair game.

Quote: jopke

And to have someone else win is just not allowed. This is a reality.

I mentioned I won $3,500 on High Card Flush, the seven-card flush hand. Pit boss calls surveillance, spends a minute verifying the hand, and says "Give Dan in seat #2 seven purple." Done. I threw in one purple (a George here, I was very happy, and this is why I said I won $3,000, as I left with that), Zero issue. This is the typical gambler's experience with a win, be it slots, tables, keno. They've always allowed my wins, and all of my friends their wins. I've ONLY seen this, aside from some rare AP incidents of denial.

This gonna require a lot of popcorn...

Like a great movie? ;)
look we must be the 1% gamblers here or something, because what I hear here is not what I hear from 99 out of 100 casino patrons on the outside.

Too many encore presentations.

There is too much here for me to reply to individual lines, but I do want to respond.

First, this line strikes me as odd:

Quote:

If it is any consolation, I won't press criminal charges on the possibly quite traceable ID theft event, and not because of getting the money back.

You think that a dealer who notices cards are being marked by a shuffle machine and doesn't point it out to management should go to jail but you aren't going to press charges on someone who stole your identity? It seems like you have a very warped sense of justice.

Regarding my opinion of casinos, I really do believe they should be allowed to operate as a "for profit" business, just as I said. I've been to a number of very well run establishments and had no issues at all, includes times I've won or lost. I'm not saying all casino are evil or do bad things. I am saying, however, that some casinos do make very poor decisions on how to treat customers. There are cases where casinos have called the police in, had the police compel patrons to show ID and then immediately obtain the ID from the police. These sorts of cases are fairly well documented and looking up stories from Bob Nersesian will give you some examples.

You seem to refuse to admit these mistreatments exist, or perhaps you think they are justified. I do not. I also think that if someone is cheating (colluding with a dealer, marking cards, etc) that person should be barred from the casino and, in most cases, arrested. Where I get frustrated reading your posts is you seem to only want it in one direction.

Finally, I'd prefer it if you didn't try to paraphrase things I've written. You put the following in quotes, implying it is something I said:

"Casinos are crooks who break the law by enforcing their house rules."

I did not write this. I didn't not state this, not do I believe this. I didn't even imply this. What I wrote is:

"What I don't agree with is that they should break the law in their enforcement of their "house rules"."

I can't imagine you believe casinos should be allowed to break the law in the name of "house rules". If the casino enforces their house rules legally, which most do, then I don't think anyone on this board has an issue with that from a legal perspective. The examples I gave and refer to are cases where casino engage in illegal activity to stop advantage players. I'll just assume you agree this is wrong and you simply misread my post. Now there are countless examples of casinos enforcing "house rules" where it was a poor business decision on the casino's part and that can be frustrating. If the El Cortez wants to ban non-APs for winning at blackjack then so be it. Hopefully that person got a great story and eventually the market will decide that they aren't a good place to play. Either way it is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Quote: Paigowdan

I once was involved in a player dispute on EZ Pai Gow at a casino. There was a misprint on the EZpg layout that could easily be argued to pay 100:1 on one type of simple straight (A-5 wheel straight) that should pay 2:1, and with a dollar bet twice on it when that hand came up. The distributor missed the typo on these two layouts, an innocent thing here. The player openly said "Hey! I CAN make a claim....IF I call gaming....hmmm," - and he did so! [I might assume he is a member here.....] A NGCB Gaming agent comes. Player says "Look, sir, there's the layout with the typo! I deserve money, even if it looks like I'm taking a SHOT! [He WAS indeed...] The shift manager says "Okay, Dan, schmuck - you go talk to the gaming agent. Your game, you were the relief dealer, you explain it, I throw you to him!" Gaming agent asks me if there is a typo on the layout. I say yes, they omitted a word, changing it from "A-5 Straight Flush" to "A-5 Straight" [only] on two layouts. We missed it, as did the distributor and the layout printer also." I also say "player is taking a shot here...he knows otherwise and better." Agent says that's immaterial. Agent says "Can you see the player's point without regards to him taking a shot and even enjoying this situation against you?" I said "Yes I can. I admit there's a typo that can indeed be construed to pay 100:1. And he had bet $1 twice, and he did hit that hand twice." Agent says, "Okay, you men now owe him $200. Now PAY him, AND close the table until the layout is fixed." "Yessir, will do." He apprises the shift manager. Shift manager calls me into the shift office. Visions of Colonel Klink's office from Hogan's Heroes arise....a bowl of teeth and a pair of pliers sitting on the shift manager's desk, jumper cables and a cattle prod are in the corner of the office (now they DO have to deal with dealers here now...) Shift manager asks me "what did you tell the agent?" I said there was indeed a typo on the layout that was unnoticed for years until somebody takes a shot and makes a claim, - rare on Pai Gow Poker, but as we know, we can expect that on craps and BJ." Manager says "Aw, crap, now we have to pay a shot taker $200.....that offends me." I said "Me too. But I told the agent the truth of the situation." He said, "That's okay, you're supposed to do that. Always a little scary when an agent comes in, but you'd be in more hot water if you B.S. them. Take the lumps and go with it." He gets it.

What an idiot -- betting only a dollar. You recognize an advantageous bet and bet the minimum?

Quote: jopke

There is too much here for me to reply to individual lines, but I do want to respond.

First, this line strikes me as odd:

You think that a dealer who notices cards are being marked by a shuffle machine and doesn't point it out to management should go to jail but you aren't going to press charges on someone who stole your identity? It seems like you have a very warped sense of justice.

All right, I'll answer.
On this, No, as I think a casino dealer who contemplates and then possibly participates in a marked card scheme on a live money game (I question what may have been sought) may be in a mess of criminal trouble, and any one taking the tact that marked cards is easy money may not realize in the end the full blunt of what is signed up for. As they say, it's not what is deserved, it's what's negotiated that may be gotten.
As for me reconsidering the incident of the bank fraud on my account, I reviewed and reflected on it, and had reconsidered my harsher views on pursuing a criminal complaint in a sense of justice, and may tell the bank just get the money back and not further pursue the complaint. Now, you're making me regret adopting a softer view of this for someone who might be a misguided hacker scoring his first cash, telling me here that my kinder reconsideration would now be "warped justice." Fine, since it was a more traceable type of ID/bank fraud (which is a serious felony charge as explained to me by the bank manager), you're telling me now I'd have a warped sense of justice if didn't fully see to it that some unknown fraudster didn't get what he pretty much negotiated for himself if pursued and caught in the end with a bit of extra effort. I find this to be mixed signals.

Quote: jopke

Regarding my opinion of casinos, I really do believe they should be allowed to operate as a "for profit" business, just as I said. I've been to a number of very well run establishments and had no issues at all, includes times I've won or lost.

This part has been my belief and exceedingly consistent experience with casinos also. (READ: "The casino is your FRIEND if you're a friend, too, all Mr. Rodgers like...)

Quote: jopke

I'm not saying all casino are evil or do bad things. I am saying, however, that some casinos do make very poor decisions on how to treat customers.

I agree with this too. Surprisingly on the same sheet of music on this also, two in a row. Perhaps we are not so different...

Quote: jopke

There are cases where casinos have called the police in, had the police compel patrons to show ID and then immediately obtain the ID from the police. These sorts of cases are fairly well documented and looking up stories from Bob Nersesian will give you some examples.

Sure, these happen too, and when they happen, may these casinos get what they deserve negotiated for themselves, with a go Bob Nersesian on this.

Quote: jopke

You seem to refuse to admit these mistreatments exist, or perhaps you think they are justified. I do not.

I think they are way less in frequency than presented here, (especially with the concentrated AP school here), and that yes, most back-offs are actually justified and legal by the casino, and I also agree that some are not justified.

Quote: jopke

I also think that if someone is cheating (colluding with a dealer, marking cards, etc) that person should be barred from the casino and, in most cases, arrested. Where I get frustrated reading your posts is you seem to only want it in one direction.

I don't. There are some cases (some) where I think, "go Nersesian."

Quote: jopke

Finally, I'd prefer it if you didn't try to paraphrase things I've written. You put the following in quotes, implying it is something I said:

"Casinos are crooks who break the law by enforcing their house rules."

I did not write this. I didn't not state this, not do I believe this. I didn't even imply this. What I wrote is:

"What I don't agree with is that they should break the law in their enforcement of their "house rules"."

okay, let me apologize on this. But ANY implication that they are crooks, (or even have some nerve) in enforcing their house rules is a common theme here; get backed off, be fine with it, and admit "yeah, I was counting, and was backed off for it, fine with me, I'll play craps/Roulette, or UTH/3CP without attempting to hole-card..." ;)

Quote: jopke

I can't imagine you believe casinos should be allowed to break the law in the name of "house rules".
I don't believe this. What I believe is that they back-off people with a "you're just so awesome on Blackjack, you're just too good for us, here's a comp, now go play craps or go home." And this is perfectly fine, there's no right to play a game that the house isn't fine with you playing it, and if they're not fine, there's typically a valid reason for it.

Quote: jopke

If the casino enforces their house rules legally, which most do, then I don't think anyone on this board has an issue with that from a legal perspective.

C'mon, there's often huge indignation and anger at a back off, frequently precipitating cries of violation and the whole evil casino thing, or the "but it's LEGAL to count, this is an outrage, they have NO RIGHT to stop me from doing something LEGAL!! (yes they do and it's legal for them, too)" and what have you.

Quote: jopke

The examples I gave and refer to are cases where casino engage in illegal activity to stop advantage players. I'll just assume you agree this is wrong and you simply misread my post.

Agree, but there should be NO problem with a casino house in legally stopping AP, especially if they invite you to play craps (which'll tell them if you're just a gambler versus a "pro"), and especially if they offer you a comp with the craps or Roulette invite. Roll some dice and go to the Buffet and be fine with it, as that is what gamblers do. I play dice and cards (UTH, PGP, C4P, HCF, and 3CP with the wife, etc.) and get comped by always showing and playing on my ID. And I think alone this is good and normal and enjoyable, a rarity here. If I play BJ I play Freebet at GVR (played that today).

Quote: jopke

Now there are countless examples of casinos enforcing "house rules" where it was a poor business decision on the casino's part and that can be frustrating.

You can't convince them by telling them it's a bad decision to disallow an AP player to play Blackjack, they won't believe it if they made that decision, and what do you care about how they run their business outside of your own concerns with back offs....you aren't going to show them a P & L statement on it. If it's really their loss you'd have some Schadenfreude over it.

Quote: jopke

If the El Cortez wants to ban non-APs for winning at blackjack then so be it. Hopefully that person got a great story and eventually the market will decide that they aren't a good place to play. Either way it is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Who plays at the El Cortez? And there are people who play green on their pitch games just to go through the rite of passage being backed off and writing home. ("Look at me now, - all backed off and crap - I'm WOV qualified!" type of thing.)

Quote: Elastoid

[On the PGP shot-taking player betting low on the typo-ed layout.]
What an idiot -- betting only a dollar. You recognize an advantageous bet and bet the minimum?

On this, the particular straight is fairly rare (1 in 200 hands), but more so, it was always paid out "non-typo" correctly for years. I mean nobody after installing it treated it as any sort of typo-ed layout IF they saw it. What if he bet quarters and in 200 hands didn't get it? There's be only one shot at this, as we'd refuse the payout, making him call gaming for the claim. A quarter bet would have paid $2,500 through a NGCB claiming action, and yeah, mathematically he should have given it a shot if that was his plan.

We all (dealers and a gazillion regular players) just played and dealt the table never noticing anything, and accepted standard PGP pays for eons. Only when a shot-seeking player went ape-crap in protest one night on it for a $1 bet and then called gaming over it was it an issue. Total loss after NGCB decree = $200. We brought up the lid and the next day swapped the layout.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Elastoid

[On the PGP shot-taking player betting low on the typo-ed layout.]
What an idiot -- betting only a dollar. You recognize an advantageous bet and bet the minimum?

On this, the particular straight is fairly rare (1 in 200 hands), but more so, it was always paid out "non-typo" correctly for years. I mean nobody after installing it treated it as any sort of typo-ed layout IF they saw it. What if he bet quarters and in 200 hands didn't get it? There's be only one shot at this, as we'd refuse the payout, making him call gaming for the claim. A quarter bet would have paid $2,500 through a NGCB claiming action, and yeah, mathematically he should have given it a shot if that was his plan.

We all (dealers and a gazillion regular players) just played and dealt the table never noticing anything, and accepted standard PGP pays for eons. Only when a shot-seeking player went ape-crap in protest one night on it for a $1 bet and then called gaming over it was it an issue. Total loss after NGCB decree = $200. We brought up the lid and the next day swapped the layout.

Funny story -- a casino in Edmonton had two UTH tables. One of them had a "Max Payout 10,000" sign. The other one didn't.

A player played at the one that didn't. Played a lot -- bet between $50 and $100 per bet. Wound up hitting a very large Royal Flush -- I believe it was around $80. There was no max payout sign.

He got paid $10,000. He made a stink. The AGLC agreed there should have been a sign there, but the rule was still in place. He got paid his $10,000, and the next day, they put a sign up.

This player was not taking a shot, he legitimately believed that the table he was playing at carried no max payout. He had played there for months, simply preferring that table because he preferred to play over $20 a bet. But casinos here are managed by the government, and it doesn't give two shits if you're upset and leave to play at another casino. Once you bet the money, it doesn't belong to the casino, it belongs to the AGLC.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Elastoid

[On the PGP shot-taking player betting low on the typo-ed layout.]
What an idiot -- betting only a dollar. You recognize an advantageous bet and bet the minimum?

On this, the particular straight is fairly rare (1 in 200 hands), but more so, it was always paid out "non-typo" correctly for years. I mean nobody after installing it treated it as any sort of typo-ed layout IF they saw it. What if he bet quarters and in 200 hands didn't get it? There's be only one shot at this, as we'd refuse the payout, making him call gaming for the claim. A quarter bet would have paid $2,500 through a NGCB claiming action, and yeah, mathematically he should have given it a shot if that was his plan.

We all (dealers and a gazillion regular players) just played and dealt the table never noticing anything, and accepted standard PGP pays for eons. Only when a shot-seeking player went ape-crap in protest one night on it for a $1 bet and then called gaming over it was it an issue. Total loss after NGCB decree = $200. We brought up the lid and the next day swapped the layout.

You must be very confused, as that would NOT be "taking a shot". If it's printed on the layout and that's the rules, then he should have been paid his $100 or whatever it said on the layout, no questions asked. Whatever the casino wants to do after that is up to them (ie: close the table).

The way I read your story, made it seem like he had NOT been originally paid whatever he was owed, but he was paid later on. Why was he not paid on the spot? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Sounds like sometimes you favor "house rules" and other times you don't. Are you saying the house rule at that casino was to short a player on the A-5 straight even though the layout said 100-to-1?

I remember someone saying that they went from stealing literal pennies in TITO left behind, to attempting to steal big money in TITO, around $70 in a seemingly abandoned machine They They said once they stole about $1 in left machines(adding up penny TITO) it was just days later when they attempted to steal the big money. Unfortunately for them, the Casino employee and the rightful owner of the big money TITO Gambler(who had been in the restroom) caught them getting ready to cash in the big TITO and the thief was forced to give back the TITO and was temporarily banned from the Casino.

Quote: Paigowdan

I don't have an open mind...

Done. Discussion over. You can't have a discussion with someone who's self-described to be as closed minded as Dan.

Quote: Romes

Done. Discussion over. You can't have a discussion with someone who's self-described to be as closed minded as Dan.

Fairly cheap shot Romes, mild applause, you can do better than that... You've proved it, you probably included the math... ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Fairly cheap shot Romes, mild applause, you can do better than that... You've proved it, you probably included the math... ;-)

I disagree. 2F, if you've read the entire discussion Dan and Romes have had, it was very pertinent to the entire sub-conversation throughout their posts about HOW to discuss things when they fundamentally disagree. I would guess you skipped over it, or parts of it, or you would not have said that.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I disagree. 2F, if you've read the entire discussion Dan and Romes have had, it was very pertinent to the entire sub-conversation throughout their posts about HOW to discuss things when they fundamentally disagree. I would guess you skipped over it, or parts of it, or you would not have said that.

Hi BABBs.
Actually I have read this entire thread, and many other threads where both Romes and Dan have conversed. Hat's off to Dan for having a really thick skin, always trying to make his point (s). Not always perfectly IMO, but he keeps plugging away in a fairly hostile environment. Kudos.
And Romes, well you got to love Romes. I was just ribbing him. I hope he understood.
Sparkles reminds me all the time that much of the world does not understand, or appreciate, my humor. You got to love Sparkles too.
I will hide under a rock for a bit.....

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Hi BABBs.
Actually I have read this entire thread, and many other threads where both Romes and Dan have conversed. Hat's off to Dan for having a really thick skin, always trying to make his point (s). Not always perfectly IMO, but he keeps plugging away in a fairly hostile environment. Kudos.
And Romes, well you got to love Romes. I was just ribbing him. I hope he understood.
Sparkles reminds me all the time that much of the world does not understand, or appreciate, my humor. You got to love Sparkles too.
I will hide under a rock for a bit.....

Oh I know you were just taking a jab, and I took zero offence.

I still stand by my remark though. There's "sticking to your guns" in the face of adversity, and then there's narrow/closed minded blurting out the same biased viewpoint BS over and over. I think I made it clear which Dan is doing. You can't have a discussion/debate/information exchange if you're not willing to at least entertain both sides. I try to see everyone's views, including the fact that the casino is a "for profit" business with the right to refuse service to anyone. That being said I made many of points on why I believe they're unfair, misleading/misrepresenting, and how they're the "scammers" quite often breaking the law when someone beats them fair and square... according to their WRITTEN RULES. The idea that "unwritten rules" should be accounted for is completely asinine and proof in of itself on how casinos are misleading/misrepresenting, which is why I gave my example of other more 'obviously unfair' unwritten rules. This shows that there is a point where even Dan considers "unwritten rules" to be unfair... Yet due to his close minded beliefs he refuses to think casinos in our every day real world cross any of these lines, when it's a well known and accepted fact by the masses that they do.

You can't teach nor learn anything from someone who's unwilling to see past their own views. I pity people who are like that... They'll never learn anything from anyone else.

Too much bitterness, even if one knows where it originates.
I know, firsthand, where it originates.
I said, you gotta love Romes, I meant it.
You said we're good.
Carry on....

Quote: RS

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Elastoid

[On the PGP shot-taking player betting low on the typo-ed layout.]
What an idiot -- betting only a dollar. You recognize an advantageous bet and bet the minimum?

On this, the particular straight is fairly rare (1 in 200 hands), but more so, it was always paid out "non-typo" correctly for years. I mean nobody after installing it treated it as any sort of typo-ed layout IF they saw it. What if he bet quarters and in 200 hands didn't get it? There's be only one shot at this, as we'd refuse the payout, making him call gaming for the claim. A quarter bet would have paid $2,500 through a NGCB claiming action, and yeah, mathematically he should have given it a shot if that was his plan.

We all (dealers and a gazillion regular players) just played and dealt the table never noticing anything, and accepted standard PGP pays for eons. Only when a shot-seeking player went ape-crap in protest one night on it for a $1 bet and then called gaming over it was it an issue. Total loss after NGCB decree = $200. We brought up the lid and the next day swapped the layout.

You must be very confused, as that would NOT be "taking a shot".

No, I wasn't confused. My point is, neither was the player:
1. He knew a simple straight pays 2:1. A veteran PGP player.
2. He knew it was a typo that did not represent the correct payout.
3. He knew if he pushed the issue, after knowing it really should pay 2:1, that he'd win on a technicality, and he simply went for it.

Quote: RS

If it's printed on the layout and that's the rules, then he should have been paid his $100 or whatever it said on the layout, no questions asked. Whatever the casino wants to do after that is up to them (ie: close the table).

But one question was asked, and by the shift manager: "Buddy, if you already know that it honestly pays 2:1, then why not accept that? You know it was a typo." His answer openly was: "Because I can get away with taking advantage of an innocent typo - your typo - now watch me do it!" This was his argument and his action. Fine.

Quote: RS

The way I read your story, made it seem like he had NOT been originally paid whatever he was owed, but he was paid later on. Why was he not paid on the spot? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Because there were two printed pay tables on the layout, one said the correct 2:1 payout, the other didn't. (I should have mentioned this also, but it was the misprinted one that produced his "AHA!" moment. But yeah, the bad pay table was fully there, also.) This was on top of the fact that he knew that a simple straight paid 2:1; he was no newbie to PGP. He really was trying to take advantage of a typo, this was clear, and so this was pointed out. He wasn't paid on the spot because he knew it was 2:1, accepted previous payouts he was openly taking a shot on it, that that was a valid counter-point to make. He was saying "I betcha gaming will side with me!" with that being the call: let them make the call.
He was there with a girlfriend/fiancée to whom he was now oblivious too, who was humiliated with the whole scene, and who wanted to go home. Also, another player, a known regular, approached me and asked "You know, I can get in on this, too. I think I had an A-5 straight also, didn't I?" "I answered, "Tommy, we know you here, and we know you know the correct payout. Do you want a piece of this, really, for $98 bucks? Now we have to roll back the tape, probably to see you didn't get that hand, I don't recall that, you had a Jack-high straight, but maybe you did when I was on break, who knows..." If he had gotten that hand I would have said "Sure, just jump in." Sheesh. Now Tommy here was also thinking "A free $98 bucks, hmm...." He thought about it a moment and said "Naa....this is getting creepy...." It was getting to be a ridiculous feeding Frenzy, some in, some out. Free money, easy money, just throw that crap into the mix and step back to watch how different people behave, it was exactly that situation and amazing to witness in hindsight. But at the time I had only a sense of irritation. Now I think it's kind of funny. The other last two players were standing away just watching all this, not going near it but wanting to rubber-neck. I've got to admit, looking back on it, it was something else.

Quote: RS

Sounds like sometimes you favor "house rules" and other times you don't. Are you saying the house rule at that casino was to short a player on the A-5 straight even though the layout said 100-to-1?

What? Short a player? If players could come in now with sharpies to make claims and get away with it they would. People openly knew they were taking advantage of an innocent typo that was to everyone acted like they had seen for the first time when looked at. The house rule here was "if they want to call gaming, here's the phone, let them call gaming to have God resolve this. We're not stopping you, let's hear the referee's call. Okay, here we go." A-Okay.

Quote: Romes

You can't teach nor learn anything from someone who's unwilling to see past their own views. I pity people who are like that... They'll never learn anything from anyone else.

Hey, I've learned to be thick-skinned and to have perseverance. These are required characteristics for this business. I know casinos sometimes cross the lines, I can say a thousand times "Bob Nersesian is right on that one" but this won't be acknowledge. It's the open attitude that players are always 100% right, wonderful, gracious, and righteous that casino workers say "Suuuure...."

Quote: Paigowdan

Let me ask you a question.

Lets say I take a marker from a casino for 9k and for whatever reason they mess up the paperwork or something and forget to collect.

Let's pretend the casino only has one year to inform me by mail I must pay, however because the employee who messed up they didn't. Lets assume I had every intention of paying them back, but I forgot to as well.

Let's assume I'm very wealthy with 100s of millions

13 months later a casino employee calls me and says hey I made a mistake and you got 9k from the casino but if you don't pay it back they are going to take the money out of my pocket. However legally you don't have to.

If I tell them NO because I don't have to, its your loss, you messed up not me. I gain a free 9k. Do you think that's unethical and morally wrong of me or anyone to do that to a person?

Please just a Yes or No answer.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, I wasn't confused. My point is, neither was the player:
1. He knew a simple straight pays 2:1. A veteran PGP player.
2. He knew it was a typo that did not represent the correct payout.
3. He knew if he pushed the issue, after knowing it really should pay 2:1, that he'd win on a technicality, and he simply went for it.

Question for Dan, was the player then banned from play at the casino?

Yes.


But that's me. I fully admit there is indeed an argument that if one is able to quash a debt, then you'd be crazy not to take advantage of that.
There's also a concept of debt as an obligation, where the "I don't owe you any because of reason x" gives way to "You lent me when I was in need or want, and that was the case, and I won't renege with justification, even if a technically valid point can be made. Here ya go."

This is simply item #2 on Mike's Ten Commandments of Gambling.. If the Almighty's commandments aren't followed, then Mike is toast on these expectations. I wonder if he thought "Like these have a shot, they made be viewed as rules to be broken...."

Quote: bw

Question for Dan, was the player then banned from play at the casino?

No, of course not. You can't ban gamblers from gambling halls simply for being pricks, you'd have very few slightly fewer customers, and that's opinion anyway.

Anyway, on that point, the claimer went right home after being paid, with very irritated lady in tow. Actually, he was towed. I'm sure this event is also posted on a Very Bad Dates forum.

Quote: AxelWolf

Let me ask you a question.

Lets say I take a marker from a casino for 9k.

Please just a Yes or No answer.

Axel, jeez.
You pick on Dan here/now.
Give him a break.
You still on 'bad man' list.
Love you Axel!

<edit> you got garter belt pictures to share? No, not you silly man. Just pics....
Blissfully ignorant, undercover, and enjoying myself ( no, not like that ).
The Two Feathers

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes.


But that's me. I fully admit there is indeed an argument that if one is able to quash a debt, then you'd be crazy not to take advantage of that.
There's also a concept of debt as an obligation, where the "I don't owe you any because of reason x" gives way to "You lent me when I was in need or want, and that was the case, and I won't renege with justification, even if a technically valid point can be made. Here ya go."

This is simply item #2 on Mike's Ten Commandments of Gambling.. If the Almighty's commandments aren't followed, then Mike is toast on these expectations. I wonder if he thought "Like these have a shot, they made be viewed as rules to be broken...."

The impression I get from you is that you feel casinos are usually fair and ethical. I can recall many incidences where they have been quit the opposite.

There a few cases regarding large (in the thousands) expired slot tickets/winning spots tickets. They are LEGITIMATE and documented and not earned though AP. The successful well banked casino has refused to cash them(hurting an individual). They can and have cashed large expired ones before, so there's no set in stone rules saying they can't redeem expired tickets .

Perhaps you would like to buy them at a discount go get the money and prove to us just how ethical the casinos are?

This is OUTRIGHT THEFT IMO. They are BLATANTLY ripping off customers.

I think even Mike has mentioned this happen to him.

Tickets say VOID after x days. I interpret that as the ticket itself is voided not the money owed towards the tickets.

Shall I go on?

Don't get me started about promotions. You know the ones where they say if you do X,Y and Z you get X. Upon completion of X,Y and Z and thousands in losses they refuse to give you X. This isn't just a few casinos and times, this has happened many many times at many casinos. There's even been situations where casino management approved and said yes if you play this machine and hit this or that we WILL pay you your bonus. Suddenly they WELSH on the deal.

Shall we get into management telling servers not to cut off customers until they hit the floor or someone else?
I have a quote from a former trip casino cocktail waitress(now a bartender at a different location). She was basically told not to cut anyone off as long as they could still get money out of their wallet and weren't harassing other customers. Perhaps Mission can stop by and talk to her, she's near his location.

PLEASE quit trying to claim casinos ethical, fair and play by the rules because they don't. If they want AP's to follow some unwritten rules, perhaps they should lead by example. Until then, I'll be encouraging any legal AP moves AP's can come up with. I'll will not encourage prison gang raping them.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes.


But that's me. I fully admit there is indeed an argument that if one is able to quash a debt, then you'd be crazy not to take advantage of that.
There's also a concept of debt as an obligation, where the "I don't owe you any because of reason x" gives way to "You lent me when I was in need or want, and that was the case, and I won't renege with justification, even if a technically valid point can be made. Here ya go."

This is simply item #2 on Mike's Ten Commandments of Gambling.. If the Almighty's commandments aren't followed, then Mike is toast on these expectations. I wonder if he thought "Like these have a shot, they made be viewed as rules to be broken...."

The impression I get from you is that you feel casinos are usually fair and ethical. I can recall many incidences where they have been quit the opposite.

There a few cases regarding large (in the thousands) expired slot tickets/winning spots tickets. They are LEGITIMATE and documented and not earned though AP. The successful well banked casino has refused to cash them(hurting an individual). They can and have cashed large expired ones before, so there's no set in stone rules saying they can't redeem expired tickets .

Perhaps you would like to buy them at a discount go get the money and prove to us just how ethical the casinos are?

This is OUTRIGHT THEFT IMO. They are BLATANTLY ripping off customers.

I think even Mike has mentioned this happen to him.

Tickets say VOID after x days. I interpret that as the ticket itself is voided not the money owed towards the tickets.

Shall I go on?

Na, I do indeed see this. I myself really take the "no welshing in gambling" commandment seriously, and say so.

Quote: AW

Don't get me started about promotions. You know the ones where they say if you do X,Y and Z you get X. Upon completion of X,Y and Z and thousands in losses they refuse to give you X. This isn't just a few casinos and times, this has happened many many times at many casinos. There's even been situations where casino management approved and said yes if you play this machine and hit this or that we WILL pay you your bonus. Suddenly they WELSH on the deal.

Shall we get into management telling servers not to cut off customers until they hit the floor or someone else?
I have a quote from a former trip casino cocktail waitress(now a bartender at a different location). She was basically told not to cut anyone off as long as they could still get money out of their wallet and weren't harassing other customers. Perhaps Mission can stop by and talk to her, she's near his location.

We've all taken mandatory Alcohol Awareness certification programs, from dealers and waitresses on up. I've seen a mix of both cut offs as well as improper continuations, and it is a mix of compliance and non-compliance on alcohol. But the fact of the matter is something also needs to be said on grown-ups being responsible for their own imbibing.

Quote: AW

PLEASE quit trying to claim casinos ethical, fair and play by the rules because they don't. If they want AP's to follow some unwritten rules, perhaps they should lead by example. Until then, I'll be encouraging any legal AP moves AP's can come up with. I'll will not encourage prison gang raping them.

Neither will I, but to say you reap what you sign up for if above mere card legal counting and into the fraud and felony level crap as the fact of the matter. Certainly no time to serve if they're legal actions. For the casinos the back offs are legal and more often appropriate than not, and they should be viewed neutrally, and with the cause and effect of someone's own role in it accepted and recognized. All with absolutely no sense of indignation or entitlement to play. Outside of New Jersey game action is a privilege, not a demandable right, and why it's ever felt otherwise is self-defeating folly. If you are free to walk away from a table then they are free to have you walked away from a table, no demand of seeing a magna carta required. They're not going to show you their Internal Controls book on it. So why even care? Worst thing you can ever do is personally beat yourself up because some suit backed you off. A smart AP doesn't waste any time at all feeling any resentment from a back off, it's one down, 19 more to go.

Everyone presents their side in a white hat just to present the other side in a black hat, with everyone claiming and presenting their endless list of the other side's alleged wrongdoings.

I don't always resent casinos for gently 86'ing AP's. However, if an AP is doing nothing but simply playing a progressive, Full Pay machine or promotion WITHIN THE CASINOS RULES. They shouldn't be 86'ing people or backing them off(AND EVEN BEATING THEM).

Ever notice they almost never just back off machine and promotion players? They just go straight for 86'ing them. That's because they know it's shady to tell people they can't play something within the rules, something that's set up to be played that way. Oftentimes they are even advertising FULL PAY machines and various promotions. A come take your best shot within the house rules scenario that's been described. Do you think it's right that they 86 people for that? That's a clear sign the really don't want winners they only want complete idiots who play bad and have a significant chance to lose.

If they want to 86 people for Edge sorting, hole carding etc etc. I'm not arguing that.

Quote: AxelWolf

I don't always resent casinos for gently 86'ing AP's. However, if an AP is doing nothing but simply playing a progressive, Full Pay machine or promotion WITHIN THE CASINOS RULES. They shouldn't be 86'ing people or backing them off(AND EVEN BEATING THEM).

I agree with this, if you're within the casino rules there should be no 86-ing or bait 'n' switch deals!. The beatings should be turned over to Bob Nersesian.

Quote: AW

Ever notice they almost never just back off machine and promotion players? They just go straight for 86'ing them. That's because they know it's shady to tell people they can't play something within the rules, something that's set up to be played that way. Oftentimes they are even advertising FULL PAY machines and various promotions. A come take your best shot within the house rules scenario that's been described. Do you think it's right that they 86 people for that? That's a clear sign the really don't want winners they only want complete idiots who play bad and have a significant chance to lose.

There should be a bad brick-n-mortar casinos warning page similar to Mike's online blacklist page. White hat casinos and black hat casinos and provably the why. They don't advertise here in any case.

Quote: AW

If they want to 86 people for Edge sorting, hole carding etc etc. I'm not arguing that.

Above the card counting level, you risk getting into some grey and black areas involving worse, detentions and police.

I'm okay with casino's backing people off for counting or other methods of AP.Most pros will quietly leave without a problem. Just don't try to force us to show id or backroom us.

Quote: PGD

Above the card counting level, you risk getting into some grey and black areas involving worse, detentions and police.

Why should you risk "grey/black areas + detention/police"? If someone is doing something legal (that the casino doesn't like), but the laws are already set saying those things/actions the player is doing is LEGAL.....why/how would there be detentions / police action? [That is, legally, why would those things be necessary? Of course, those things DO happen, but that's the casino acting in an illegal manner.]

Exactly, that's the big IF.
Either the Player or the house can cross the Legality line.
If a player, don't risk it, if a casino house, call Bob on 'em.,

Quote: Paigowdan

Exactly, that's the big IF.
Either the Player or the house can cross the Legality line.
If a player, don't risk it, if a casino house, call Bob on 'em.,

So your response to casinos breaking the law is -- call Bob N?

I thought you were of the opinion that casinos act justly and only kick out people who don't play by their rules?


And NO - it's not some "big IF". Playing certain ways that casinos do not like (ie: hole-carding) is NOT illegal.

I feel like this thread has turned a corner and is much more cordial. A lot of common ground has been found, and that is great! Hopefully that sort of mindset will continue in the future so we don't have threads so massively derailed.

Quote: RS

So your response to casinos breaking the law is -- call Bob N?

If a casino breaks the law against you, you'd want to be really effective. You'd have file a criminal complaint or civil suit, so you'll pretty much have to get a lawyer to be effective, where your action is powerful and not in vain, so get the best.
What else are you going to do? commiserate here? Write a letter to the chamber of commerce? Do you think if you complain to the casino they'd side with you and sue themselves on your behalf?

Quote: RS

I thought you were of the opinion that casinos act justly and only kick out people who don't play by their rules?

Generally, yes. That is the case for the most part. But if there's a security guard who assaults you or improperly detains you, something serious, then yeah, it's on the casino.

Quote: RS

And NO - it's not some "big IF". Playing certain ways that casinos do not like (ie: hole-carding) is NOT illegal.

Do not confuse it with dealer flashing, which is where the dealer takes the action to expose cards. If the dealer doesn't expose cards, but the player goes beyond the pale to obtain information, that is different. One young casino patron was capping bets for a trivial amount propelled the casino manager to have him arrested by the police.

Quote: Paigowdan

Do not confuse it with dealer flashing, which is where the dealer takes the action to expose cards. If the dealer doesn't expose cards, but the player goes beyond the pale to obtain information, that is different. One young casino patron was capping bets for a trivial amount propelled the casino manager to have him arrested by the police.

Capping bets is clearly illegal, no different than paying for a $1 candybar with a $10 bill and then asking for $19 in change because "hey, I just gave you a $20." It's also expressly against NRS 465 and is a felony:

Quote: NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.

  It is unlawful for any person:
5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

But while we're at it, let's talk about hole carding. I was under the impression that hole carding was in the same legal bucket as card counting -- casinos don't like it but it's not illegal. However, can someone please explain to me how hole carding is legal (in Nevada) given the following language?

Quote: NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.

  It is unlawful for any person:
2.  To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.

Clearly, the hole card in a blackjack game affects the outcome of the game. In addition, the knowledge of the hole card is almost never available to all players, only the player sitting in the location where the dealer's sloppy card handling is visible. In other words, I could be sitting at one end of a blackjack table, a sharp-eyed hole carder sitting at the other end, and viewing the hole card gives the hole carder knowledge that is not available to me. Why isn't that unlawful? Has a passive hole carder ever been charged under NRS 465.070 in Nevada?

I'm pretty sure that actively taking actions that encourage a dealer flash a hole card would be unlawful under that statute, and if the dealer intentionally flashes that'd be a clear violation of that statute ("to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge..."), but what about a player who just observes a sloppy dealer?

I'm going to have to add this to my list of "is this legal or not" questions, which so far contains just one other entry: "if someone uses a practiced throw of the dice, aren't they attempting to alter the criteria which determine the frequency of payment in craps?"

Quote: MathExtremist

Capping bets is clearly illegal, no different than paying for a $1 candybar with a $10 bill and then asking for $19 in change because "hey, I just gave you a $20." It's also expressly against NRS 465 and is a felony:


But while we're at it, let's talk about hole carding. I was under the impression that hole carding was in the same legal bucket as card counting -- casinos don't like it but it's not illegal. However, can someone please explain to me how hole carding is legal (in Nevada) given the following language?

Quote: NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.

  It is unlawful for any person:
2.  To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.

Clearly, the hole card in a blackjack game affects the outcome of the game. In addition, the knowledge of the hole card is almost never available to all players, only the player sitting in the location where the dealer's sloppy card handling is visible. In other words, I could be sitting at one end of a blackjack table, a sharp-eyed hole carder sitting at the other end, and viewing the hole card gives the hole carder knowledge that is not available to me. Why isn't that unlawful? Has a passive hole carder ever been charged under NRS 465.070 in Nevada?

I'm pretty sure that actively taking actions that encourage a dealer flash a hole card would be unlawful under that statute, and if the dealer intentionally flashes that'd be a clear violation of that statute ("to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge..."), but what about a player who just observes a sloppy dealer?

I'm going to have to add this to my list of "is this legal or not" questions, which so far contains just one other entry: "if someone uses a practiced throw of the dice, aren't they attempting to alter the criteria which determine the frequency of payment in craps?"

Grosjean addresses that here:

http://beyondnumbers.lvablog.com/2015/08/30/legal-musings-using-information-not-available-to-others-at-the-table/

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Grosjean addresses that here:

http://beyondnumbers.lvablog.com/2015/08/30/legal-musings-using-information-not-available-to-others-at-the-table.

Thanks for the reference. Grosjean points to a case where hole carders were acquitted of cheating, which is fine, but I'm specifically interested in the Fraudulent Acts language. That's separate from cheating. Apart from some argument and invective, Grosjean doesn't refer to any prior authority on the topic. He does say that hole carding was found legal, but that's not actually what Einbinder says. That decision says hole carding is not cheating. There's a big difference between "not cheating" and "legal".

Has a Nevada DA ever actually prosecuted a passive hole carder for Fraudulent Acts?

Quote: Paigowdan

I agree with this, if you're within the casino rules there should be no 86-ing or bait 'n' switch deals!. The beatings should be turned over to Bob Nersesian.

There should be a bad brick-n-mortar casinos warning page similar to Mike's online blacklist page. White hat casinos and black hat casinos and provably the why. They don't advertise here in any case.


.

Unfortunately Bob's Services didn't command such high settlements back before anyone knew his name in the 90's, there's not to many good progressives around nowadays. Perhaps one day when I'm at knocking on heavens (or hell's) door I can get you a private viewing to a classic casino beating Video.

If there were a blacklist that included casinos who have 86'ed and no payed rule abiding behavior by AP's most of them would be on it.

I don't think you realize how often this stuff goes on.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Paigowdan

I agree with this, if you're within the casino rules there should be no 86-ing or bait 'n' switch deals!. The beatings should be turned over to Bob Nersesian.

There should be a bad brick-n-mortar casinos warning page similar to Mike's online blacklist page. White hat casinos and black hat casinos and provably the why. They don't advertise here in any case.

Unfortunately Bob's Services didn't command such high settlements back before anyone knew his name in the 90's, there's not to many good progressives around nowadays. Perhaps one day when I'm at knocking on heavens (or hell's) door I can get you a private viewing to a classic casino beating Video.

I know what backrooming is about from accounts of the mob days, and its ugly; Scorsese's depiction of backrooming is brutal and blood chilling. They're unjustifiable, and I would say relatively if not totally non-existent in comparison to any claims of their common use and existence as Standard operational Procedure as proof of the evils of regulated corporate operators. Millions seem to patronize gaming as simple evening entertainment without incident. Overzealous security is also a problem at times, but from what I've seen of years in the business is that walk offs are escorts to the parking lot, and detentions involve waiting in a room for the police to arrive.

There are also videos of expelled players yelling, screaming and flailing at peaceable managers in business suits, protesting the right to do whatever the hell they want in the place, along with casino guards putting in some extra shots on a downed patron. It all exists and it is a mixed bag, all of which is bad. You could cherry-pick for your team's side all day long and risk entering into an detached world of pain, inflamed passion and resentment over the simple and common business actions and responses of the casino "suits," when this stuff exists only for the willing entrants and participants who subscribe to this AP-versus-evil operator mindset. I myself do not proselytize game protection to operators; the most I do is take out game vulnerabilities to the best of my ability on the game designs I'm involved with, and say/denounce this whole AP realm as a fundamentally dead-end, a non-real-gambling thing. This is where the juice of gambling does not come from the real result of the cards or roll of the dice and accepted in its game play and payouts, but from what can be gotten away with on a game, and for the relish in such-gotten additional gains. Folly for most for many to pursue in the end, though some make a living at it. Straight-up gambling no longer provides the juice, it just has to have an illicit "against-the-rules" twist, for additional personal profit, and for it to be meaningful "gambling" now. All concealed with cover plays, disguises, ID refusals, and camouflage, which if you think about it, reveals the deceit in the gambler's intentions. Else why hide it, and consider the floorman your friend who says Hi and provides out comps.

The reality is that millions of players play clean and straight up, have fun with no trouble, and go home when they want to after a night out. This is the functional gambling norm of millions that might not be re-attainable for the few, the "elite," the non-ploppie. (I wonder if there's an AP Anonymous: "My name is Jim, and I am an AP player. I have thirty days of clean play on my player's card with no advantage play, disguises, and back offs, all craps, Roulette, and I parlayed a hardways...I played a 6:5 CSM game with 21+3.....I no longer get paranoid when the phone rings in the pit....my sponsor is a floorman...." And the 30-day chip is white, the 90-day is red, the 1-year is green, etc., all on a key chain given with applause.)

With the PGP claiming incident, there was no real incident: the house said "We think you're claiming, and we are fine with gaming making a call on it, and will totally abide and accept you calling them, and will pay you based on their decision. Fine." In the small-money bet capping event, which the manager considered illegal, he just handed the player over to cops. There was no scene aside from a young man waiting to be booked. He has an arrest record for petty casino fraud which'll come up on all background checks, making it a life-impacting event. Manager thinks "Fine, you reap what you sow." I do not think he'll embrace AP play.

Quote: RS

If there were a blacklist that included casinos who have 86'ed and no payed rule abiding behavior by AP's most of them would be on it.

True, but 86-ing, (or being told not to play but to leave), is a normal business response to disallowed/unacceptable AP play or other unacceptable casino behavior, so yes, all casinos would be on that list, as would other businesses. People have been expelled from business for using a cell phone at a movie house or show.

Quote: RS

I don't think you realize how often this stuff goes on.

I've seen it for years from both sides of the table. I think there's some on both sides, but most of what I've seen is just gambling and more gambling, the utter vast majority clean and uneventful.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Paigowdan

I agree with this, if you're within the casino rules there should be no 86-ing or bait 'n' switch deals!. The beatings should be turned over to Bob Nersesian.

There should be a bad brick-n-mortar casinos warning page similar to Mike's online blacklist page. White hat casinos and black hat casinos and provably the why. They don't advertise here in any case.

Unfortunately Bob's Services didn't command such high settlements back before anyone knew his name in the 90's, there's not to many good progressives around nowadays. Perhaps one day when I'm at knocking on heavens (or hell's) door I can get you a private viewing to a classic casino beating Video.

I know what backrooming is about from accounts of the mob days, and its ugly; Scorsese's depiction of backrooming is brutal and blood chilling. They're unjustifiable, and I would say relatively if not totally non-existent in comparison to any claims of their common use and existence as Standard operational Procedure as proof of the evils of regulated corporate operators. Millions seem to patronize gaming as simple evening entertainment without incident. Overzealous security is also a problem at times, but from what I've seen of years in the business is that walk offs are escorts to the parking lot, and detentions involve waiting in a room for the police to arrive.

There are also videos of expelled players yelling, screaming and flailing at peaceable managers in business suits, protesting the right to do whatever the hell they want in the place, along with casino guards putting in some extra shots on a downed patron. It all exists and it is a mixed bag, all of which is bad. You could cherry-pick for your team's side all day long and risk entering into an detached world of pain, inflamed passion and resentment over the simple and common business actions and responses of the casino "suits," when this stuff exists only for the willing entrants and participants who subscribe to this AP-versus-evil operator mindset. I myself do not proselytize game protection to operators; the most I do is take out game vulnerabilities to the best of my ability on the game designs I'm involved with, and say/denounce this whole AP realm as a fundamentally dead-end, a non-real-gambling thing. This is where the juice of gambling does not come from the real result of the cards or roll of the dice and accepted in its game play and payouts, but from what can be gotten away with on a game, and for the relish in such-gotten additional gains. Folly for most for many to pursue in the end, though some make a living at it. Straight-up gambling no longer provides the juice, it just has to have an illicit "against-the-rules" twist, for additional personal profit, and for it to be meaningful "gambling" now. All concealed with cover plays, disguises, ID refusals, and camouflage, which if you think about it, reveals the deceit in the gambler's intentions. Else why hide it, and consider the floorman your friend who says Hi and provides out comps.

The reality is that millions of players play clean and straight up, have fun with no trouble, and go home when they want to after a night out. This is the functional gambling norm of millions that might not be re-attainable for the few, the "elite," the non-ploppie. (I wonder if there's an AP Anonymous: "My name is Jim, and I am an AP player. I have thirty days of clean play on my player's card with no advantage play, disguises, and back offs, all craps, Roulette, and I parlayed a hardways...I played a 6:5 CSM game with 21+3.....I no longer get paranoid when the phone rings in the pit....my sponsor is a floorman...." And the 30-day chip is white, the 90-day is red, the 1-year is green, etc., all on a key chain given with applause.)

With the PGP claiming incident, there was no real incident: the house said "We think you're claiming, and we are fine with gaming making a call on it, and will totally abide and accept you calling them, and will pay you based on their decision. Fine." In the small-money bet capping event, which the manager considered illegal, he just handed the player over to cops. There was no scene aside from a young man waiting to be booked. He has an arrest record for petty casino fraud which'll come up on all background checks, making it a life-impacting event. Manager thinks "Fine, you reap what you sow." I do not think he'll embrace AP play.


True, but 86-ing, (or being told not to play but to leave), is a normal business response to disallowed/unacceptable AP play or other unacceptable casino behavior, so yes, all casinos would be on that list, as would other businesses. People have been expelled from business for using a cell phone at a movie house or show.


I've seen it for years from both sides of the table. I think there's some on both sides, but most of what I've seen is just gambling and more gambling, the utter vast majority clean and uneventful.

I need cliff notes. Sorry I had to stop after the mob stuff.

I'm not old enough to have been around during the mob days.

Quote: Paigowdan

If a casino breaks the law against you, you'd want to be really effective. You'd have file a criminal complaint or civil suit, so you'll pretty much have to get a lawyer to be effective, where your action is powerful and not in vain, so get the best.
What else are you going to do? commiserate here? Write a letter to the chamber of commerce? Do you think if you complain to the casino they'd side with you and sue themselves on your behalf?



Generally, yes. That is the case for the most part. But if there's a security guard who assaults you or improperly detains you, something serious, then yeah, it's on the casino.

Quote: RS

And NO - it's not some "big IF". Playing certain ways that casinos do not like (ie: hole-carding) is NOT illegal.

Do not confuse it with dealer flashing, which is where the dealer takes the action to expose cards. If the dealer doesn't expose cards, but the player goes beyond the pale to obtain information, that is different. One young casino patron was capping bets for a trivial amount propelled the casino manager to have him arrested by the police.

Why do you keep doing this? As if capping bets is at all related to hole-carding...


And I don't think anyone is saying that every casino is backrooming people or no-paying them every single day. OF COURSE IT'S A RARE OCCURRENCE.

You're trying to argue that casinos abide by the law and have their own house rules and act like any other business...but oh yeah some do illegal things, but I'm not talking about that, I just wanna talk about how they're like regular businesses and stuff.


PGD, do you agree or disagree casinos use illegal tactics (unlawful detainment, no-pay [legal] legitimate patrons, etc.) against players whom they don't like / "broke the house rules", even though the patron did nothing against the law?