Roulette: Cheater, Lucky or Us?
On the first day (Friday) we open the doors at 6:00 PM. One of the first people to walk in was a person I had never seen before. No big deal, I thought. Still, he was an odd sort-of goofy-looking fellow, real tall and thin and wore a checkered hat out of the 1960's ala Frank Sinatra.
He went to the one of our roulette tables where he was the only player. The table is 20' long with a layout on each side and the wheel in the middle (at that time, we still rented the wheels). That means there would have been a dealer on the wheel and a dealer over each layout.
The guy was betting straight up numbers and pairs and he was murdering us. All bets were the $5 house max. After about 15 minutes or so, the guy was up over $5,000. The most we have ever lost to a player was about $500 so, this was nuts!
Again, he was the only guy at the table. Every dealer and the pit bosses had their eyes glued to the fellow and his hands in particular. The pit boss swears the guy could not have been past-posting. Suddenly, with a crowd gathering, he colors out and goes to the cashier table to cash in. Total play time, about 20 minutes or so. He went ballistic when the cashier pointed to the signs posted everywhere that state maximum winning $500 per-day. So ballistic that the cops had to be called over. That's when he grabbed his $500 and stormed out flinging f-bombs like crazy.
Somebody mentioned that this guy was a magician and that he travels all over to charity games to run this scam. Frankly, I don't think so, as he was playing alone and had 5 sets of eyes on him. I mentioned before that the game is in a tent so the table and wheel are set up on grass. It's quite possible that the wheel could have been was biased from not being perfectly level. However, this was the very first spins of the night so, no bias could have been patterned so quickly/soon (I could be wrong on this one).
I now have a theory on how this all happened based on everything I just told you. Be interested in your input before I post my theory. Hint: it was an inside job!
Quote: RivaSomebody mentioned that this guy was a magician and that he travels all over to charity games to run this scam.
Who mentioned that to you?
Quote: endermikeWho mentioned that to you?
That's probably the inside person on the scam, no?
Quote: endermikeWho mentioned that to you?
One of our volunteers said it in passing however, I didn't give it much weight. Besides, even if he was a magician, there is no way with people watching him from in front and behind, he could have pulled off any tricks without "somebody" noticing.
And, if the wheel had been biased, he did not have enough time to determine the bias.
No, it's much more sinister than that.
Quote: RivaHe went ballistic when the cashier pointed to the signs posted everywhere that state maximum winning $500 per-day. So ballistic that the cops had to be called over. That's when he grabbed his $500 and stormed out flinging f-bombs like crazy.
How much did he buy in for? Is the $500 a maximum total payout for chips, or a maximum on the net winnings?
I'm assuming this $500 winnings per day state-mandated limitation is just for charity operations, right? It makes sense since any gambler should theoretically be there to support the charity and shouldn't really be stoked about taking them for a big win.
Still the logistics of it seems weird. So once you hit $500 profit, you should just stop playing, right? Any chips over that limit will essentially be worthless. Have you ever had someone try to spread chips around to multiple people to enable cashing out more? Can you walk with the chips and come back the next day to cash another $500?
I guess I'm not as interested in the scam as I am in this weird $500 limit. It would piss me off too, I suppose, but you're already playing HUGE house edge games since it's a charity event. Seems like the $500 limit should be clearly posted when you buy your initial chips, is that the case?
Quote: RivaThe guy was betting straight up numbers and pairs and he was murdering us. All bets were the $5 house max. After about 15 minutes or so, the guy was up over $5,000. The most we have ever lost to a player was about $500 so, this was nuts!
My guess is he walked in the door with some of your chips.
The hole in my theory (or at least one hole) is: "Why wouldn't he try this once you you busy and it would be harder to detect?"
Quote: endermikeMy guess is he walked in the door with some of your chips.
The winnings on a $5 bet on a single number are $175. At 2 spins a minute he would need to hit EVERY BET to win about 5k in 15min. I can't believe you guys would not have shut the table down if he hit EVERY BET ON 30 SPINS.
I could be wrong, but if he is a pro scammer who makes his living scamming events like this I think he would know the limits, and not go so high over them to draw attention and make a scene when not getting payed. I don't know maybe some are like that, but I would think a scammer would be much more discrete and stop right when hitting max (why risk blowing cover when you can't get the money anyway).
Quote: AcesAndEightsHow much did he buy in for? Is the $500 a maximum total payout for chips, or a maximum on the net winnings?
I'm assuming this $500 winnings per day state-mandated limitation is just for charity operations, right? It makes sense since any gambler should theoretically be there to support the charity and shouldn't really be stoked about taking them for a big win.
Still the logistics of it seems weird. So once you hit $500 profit, you should just stop playing, right? Any chips over that limit will essentially be worthless. Have you ever had someone try to spread chips around to multiple people to enable cashing out more? Can you walk with the chips and come back the next day to cash another $500?
I guess I'm not as interested in the scam as I am in this weird $500 limit. It would piss me off too, I suppose, but you're already playing HUGE house edge games since it's a charity event. Seems like the $500 limit should be clearly posted when you buy your initial chips, is that the case?
I believe the $500 max winning limit is a state-mandated rule but, I will check. Either way, it's a rule that we institute and there are signs posted EVERYWHERE to that effect.
You are 100% correct, players can get around this by simply giving the excess to an acquaintance to cash in for them. And, if they don't have an acquaintance there, I'm sure they would simply hit up a stranger to cash the chips for them for say,$20. Also, they could simply come back the following day and cash in. However, we be on the lookout for it because the bank would not balance at the end of the night. Many times players keep chips as a souvenir but not hundreds of dollars of them. Actually, what happens most often is the player cashes in for say, $400 and then goes back to play for an hour and cashes in the other $400. There is nothing we can do to control that.
The fellow I am talking about obviously did not read the signs. Compounding the issue is that he did not have anybody to hand off his chips to otherwise he would have. Plus, when he dumped a bucket of chips on the cashier's table to be counted, there was no way that guy was going to be allowed to leave the event with say $5,000 in dead chips. Plus, he just pulled off a scam and there was no way he was going to come back.
Quote: FleaStiffWhen ALL eyes are on the "magician" ... they hear the ball stop, the croupier calls out Seven Red ... and then proceeds to pay out properly Seven Red since that is where the "magician" has his chip. Meanwhile no one is watching the croupier move that little white ball as quickly as possible.
This was my guess.
Quote: endermikeThe winnings on a $5 bet on a single number are $175. At 2 spins a minute he would need to hit EVERY BET to win about 5k in 15min. I can't believe you guys would not have shut the table down if he hit EVERY BET ON 30 SPINS.
Agreed, the numbers don't appear to work. The probability of winning $5000 in 15 min at a $5 max-bet roulette table is, for all practical purposes, zero. Even if you're making full-complete bets, which wasn't reportedly done. It's mathematically impossible to win over $5000 with single $5 bets per spin unless the game moves at faster than 32 seconds per spin. Considering the dealer was pushing stacks of chips across the layout after every win, there's no way the game was moving this fast unless the wheel itself was gaffed somehow to spin quickly and non-randomly, and both the player and croupier knew it.
Quote: endermikeMy guess is he walked in the door with some of your chips.
The hole in my theory (or at least one hole) is: "Why wouldn't he try this once you you busy and it would be harder to detect?"
We have custom made, casino-quality chips with our own unique artwork printed on both sides. A lot of work to copy for a charity game.
Quote: endermikeThe winnings on a $5 bet on a single number are $175. At 2 spins a minute he would need to hit EVERY BET to win about 5k in 15min. I can't believe you guys would not have shut the table down if he hit EVERY BET ON 30 SPINS.
That's on a normal casino table. For Riva's charity game, straight-up numbers pay less than 35-to-1. I don't remember the exact number but he has posted it in the past.
Some would say the edge on 00 roulette is already high enough to be a charity game for the operator without a modification. But I won't make that claim myself :).
Quote: RivaWe have custom made, casino-quality chips with our own unique artwork printed on both sides. A lot of work to copy for a charity game.
One of your volunteers gave him some chips to walk in the door with.
Edited for simplicity/clarity
Quote: SOOPOOThis was my guess.
Certainly possible but the croupier was a volunteer who I have known for years and trust.
also, why didn't anyone stop him when he was over a $500 win? what's the point in letting him win $4500 more if you wouldn't cash him out?
the probability of hitting more than 20 single numbers out of 100 attempts in american roulette would be about 1 in 5 trillion
I'd reckon there are a lot more cheaters that can hit those numbers than fair players.. i'd put the conditional probability at 1 in several million.
Quote: sodawaterwhat kind of organized scam would take $5000 off a wheel when the max win is 500?
also, why didn't anyone stop him when he was over a $500 win? what's the point in letting him win $4500 more if you wouldn't cash him out?
Yes... great question... you had multiple people watching him but not a one was kind enough to warn him about the limit. Wow.....
Quote: MathExtremistIt must have been a wheel spinning far too slowly (done by the croupier) so (a) the wheel was easily clockable by the dealer, (b) the dealer could hit the right numbers, and (c) the game speed was fast enough to get the bets down in time. There are several videos of people on YouTube that can hit numbers on a roulette wheel when the wheel isn't going very fast, so that's what the dealer must have been doing. It's not mathematically possible to win that much if the spins and payouts take longer than 30-ish seconds, and proper roulette games are far slower.
I was setting up the craps table at the time so, I was not at the the roulette table, at least initially. The first I knew about it was a volunteer coming over to me in a panic telling me "the guy at the roulette table is in to us for over 5 grand". It did not cause me too much worry because I knew about the $500 win cap. So, in my mind it was a non-issue other than I knew we were going to have a huge fight on our hands when he goes to cash out.
But in answer to your question, yes, he probably could have clocked the wheel. And no, the croupier was not in on the caper. And no, he did not have counterfeit chips. If that were the case, why wouldn't he simply walk up to the cashier and cash in for money rather than play roulette. The bottom line is the fellow bought in for some amount (I'll say $100) played for a short while and went back to the cashiers with $5,000. He walked out of the tent with $500, somewhat annoyed :)
Quote: SOOPOOYes... great question... you had multiple people watching him but not a one was kind enough to warn him about the limit. Wow.....
Scammers abound....
Quote: RivaAnd no, he did not have counterfeit chips. If that were the case, why wouldn't he simply walk up to the cashier and cash in for money rather than play roulette.
I'm not saying the chips were counterfeit. The chips he had were genuine, but I think they were given to him by a confederate before he walked in. Then after buying some chips legitamitely he added the ill gotten chips to his pile. He then tried to cash everything out.
The reason he would play some roulette is that even the most brazen fool would not try to walk straight to the cashier without buying in and laying some action.
However I do believe he might be foolish enough to do this without cover. He should have table hopped for a few hours while your event was busy and then cashed out in piecemeal.
Quote: RivaThe bottom line is the fellow bought in for some amount (I'll say $100) played for a short while and went back to the cashiers with $5,000. He walked out of the tent with $500, somewhat annoyed :)
Why didn't you pay him $600?
Quote: SOOPOOYes... great question... you had multiple people watching him but not a one was kind enough to warn him about the limit. Wow.....
A fair question but not logical. First, you have no idea how long a player is going to play. It's possible that this fellow had plans to be there all night. There is simply no way to tell. And, why would I tell somebody the cap is $500 when presumably, they could continue to gamble for 8 more hours.
Frequently, we have players go over $500 during play. They know the drill..they either (1) off the chips to a pal, (2) go through the check out table multiple times w/less than $500 or, (3) come back the next day. Again, we don't sweat it because it's hard to monitor and we make a fair profit on the event overall. It's basically a safety net for situations like this.
Quote: RivaI was setting up the craps table at the time so, I was not at the the roulette table, at least initially. The first I knew about it was a volunteer coming over to me in a panic telling me "the guy at the roulette table is in to us for over 5 grand". It did not cause me too much worry because I knew about the $500 win cap. So, in my mind it was a non-issue other than I knew we were going to have a huge fight on our hands when he goes to cash out.
But in answer to your question, yes, he probably could have clocked the wheel. And no, the croupier was not in on the caper. And no, he did not have counterfeit chips. If that were the case, why wouldn't he simply walk up to the cashier and cash in for money rather than play roulette. The bottom line is the fellow bought in for some amount (I'll say $100) played for a short while and went back to the cashiers with $5,000. He walked out of the tent with $500, somewhat annoyed :)
Come on man, just frickin' tell us what happened! Several theories have been floated and you have shot them all down.
Between this and the JJ suspension drama, I'm falling out of my chair with anticipation. I guess I could actually do some work (perish the though).
Quote: RivaI was setting up the craps table at the time so, I was not at the the roulette table, at least initially. The first I knew about it was a volunteer coming over to me in a panic telling me "the guy at the roulette table is in to us for over 5 grand". It did not cause me too much worry because I knew about the $500 win cap. So, in my mind it was a non-issue other than I knew we were going to have a huge fight on our hands when he goes to cash out.
But in answer to your question, yes, he probably could have clocked the wheel. And no, the croupier was not in on the caper. And no, he did not have counterfeit chips. If that were the case, why wouldn't he simply walk up to the cashier and cash in for money rather than play roulette. The bottom line is the fellow bought in for some amount (I'll say $100) played for a short while and went back to the cashiers with $5,000. He walked out of the tent with $500, somewhat annoyed :)
I get the annoyed part, and I don't think he was counterfeiting chips. How many seconds does it take for a complete game take on your wheel? Unless your game was abnormally short, it's just not physically possible to win enough $5 straight bets in "a short while" to make $5000. It'd be like winning $5000 per hour with $5 bets in blackjack. Even if you won every hand you can't make that much.
Sounds like scamming is going on, but not by the roulette player.
Quote: RivaA fair question but not logical. First, you have no idea how long a player is going to play. It's possible that this fellow had plans to be there all night. There is simply no way to tell. And, why would I tell somebody the cap is $500 when presumably, they could continue to gamble for 8 more hours.
They could, but at some point you may be violating gaming regs. If the player has already won $1000, and you won't let him cash out for more than $500, then the expected value on his next bet is zero. That's beneath the legal limit in all regulated jurisdictions I know about. I'd make sure you're not out of compliance with any such policy.
Quote: AcesAndEightsCome on man, just frickin' tell us what happened! Several theories have been floated and you have shot them all down.
Between this and the JJ suspension drama, I'm falling out of my chair with anticipation. I guess I could actually do some work (perish the though).
OK..I give you a "cliff's notes" version and follow up with details. I actually have a planning meeting down at the school for this year's event. He we go.....
The rented wheel was rigged (extremely biased). The rental guy sent in his pal to work the biased wheel at our event. It was the first and only time I had rented from him. Only related events that occurred 2 years later convinced me now that he was part of the scam.
Details later.
Quote: RivaOK..I give you a "cliff's notes" version and follow up with details. I actually have a planning meeting down at the school for this year's event. He we go.....
The rented wheel was rigged (extremely biased). The rental guy sent in his pal to work the biased wheel at our event. It was the first and only time I had rented from him. Only related events that occurred 2 years later convinced me now that he was part of the scam.
Details later.
Please do elaborate. Did the wheel remain biased all night or did the bias stop when the player left?
Quote: endermikePlease do elaborate. Did the wheel remain biased all night or did the bias stop when the player left?
I presumed it remained biased all night however, it did not appear that anybody else picked up on it. Plus, as it happened, I switched out the wheel because it was like a 25" wheel and I had ordered a 32". That particular wheel was only in use for that first day.
Film at 11:00
Quote: RivaOK..I give you a "cliff's notes" version and follow up with details. I actually have a planning meeting down at the school for this year's event. He we go.....
The rented wheel was rigged (extremely biased). The rental guy sent in his pal to work the biased wheel at our event. It was the first and only time I had rented from him. Only related events that occurred 2 years later convinced me now that he was part of the scam.
Details later.
This still doesn't explain how a player would be able to win $5000 in 20 minutes with a $5 max straight up.
Quote: sodawaterThis still doesn't explain how a player would be able to win $5000 in 20 minutes with a $5 max straight up.
A bit of embellishment on the story would (bought in for 300, cashed out for 4100, 25 minutes of play, etc.). However, I'm shocked no one else realized how biased that wheel would need to be to make this statistically reasonable (even with the embellishments) for the rest of the night. Especially the dealers/croupiers.
[Although I think the "scammer" being given chips by an inside source is the occam's razor solution]
Quote: sodawaterThis still doesn't explain how a player would be able to win $5000 in 20 minutes with a $5 max straight up.
look...our strait-up payout is 25:1 with a $5 max that pays $125. A split pays 12:1 or $60 on a $5 bet. Whether you think this is fair or not is totally irrelevant..these are our payouts for a charitable game event.
The bottom line is, this guy was in to us for 5 grand in a short period of time. If it was/is 20 minutes or 25 minutes 30 minutes, it is of no consequence because nobody could win that much money in so little time, with our payout regimen UNLESS THEY WERE CHEATING!! Please, put away your abacus!
I'm here solely to get advice so our games are not exposed to cheaters in the future--and this site (and its contributing members) is perhaps the best source to help us in that goal. So, sincerely, thank you to all for your input.
$5000 is 1000 x $5. If you pay 25-to-1 that is 40 wins AND NO LOSSES. That alone will take about an hour, and it assumes that the guy won every single bet. No wheel is so biased that he will win every single bet on a single number picked, and, even if he did, it still takes 2x as long as you claimed.
What you are saying makes no sense. Either the guy was getting overpaid, or he walked in with some chips. He did not win $5000 in 30 minutes. If you insist that it was the wheel and nothing more, then you are opening yourself up to get cheated again, because that is not how he did it.
Quote: Rivalook...our strait-up payout is 25:1 with a $5 max that pays $125. A split pays 12:1 or $60 on a $5 bet. Whether you think this is fair or not is totally irrelevant..these are our payouts for a charitable game event.
The bottom line is, this guy was in to us for 5 grand in a short period of time. If it was/is 20 minutes or 25 minutes 30 minutes, it is of no consequence because nobody could win that much money in so little time, with our payout regimen UNLESS THEY WERE CHEATING!! Please, put away your abacus!
I'm here solely to get advice so our games are not exposed to cheaters in the future--and this site (and its contributing members) is perhaps the best source to help us in that goal. So, thank you to all for your input.
See, it's precisely the abacus that allows me to hone in on the notion that nobody can win that fast. Everyone was watching the player's hands; did anyone watch the dealer for overpays? He colored up right after a big crowd appeared, which probably meant the jig was up. How do you know the dealer wasn't just shoving chips across the table to the player before anyone was actually paying attention -- the casino equivalent of a smash-and-grab? Did you actually see the ball land in the wheel on the same number that the dealer marked with the dolly? Or did the dealer just spin the ball, ignore the actual result, put the dolly on the player's chips and pay him?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe key point here is that no wheel bias gives you that much of an edge.
Yes, even over two hours. You're talking about winning a double digit percentage of your inside bets. It had to be some form of outright theft.
Quote: MathExtremistYes, even over two hours. You're talking about winning a double digit percentage of your inside bets. It had to be some form of outright theft.
Over two hours, you'd have to win about half. I'm pretty sure that some of the other players would notice if the ball kept landing on the same number on 1/2 of the spins.
I do not know what was going on here, but it was not wheel bias. If it was over an 8-hour period, I'd believe that it was possible. Even that would be a stretch.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOver two hours, you'd have to win about half. I'm pretty sure that some of the other players would notice if the ball kept landing on the same number on 1/2 of the spins.
There were no other players.
Quote: RivaAgain, he was the only guy at the table. Every dealer and the pit bosses had their eyes glued to the fellow and his hands in particular. The pit boss swears the guy could not have been past-posting. Suddenly, with a crowd gathering, he colors out and goes to the cashier table to cash in.
Everyone's watching the player, nobody's watching the dealer. The player is just the distraction. It's the dealer who must be cheating. Here's my theory:
The player was betting $5, and his chips are worth $1 so he's betting 5 of them. A 25-1 hit on 5 chips pays 125 chips. That *should* be 6 stacks of 20 with 5 on top:
But if everybody's paying attention to the player, they may not notice the dealer put an entire extra row of chip stacks out there as he pushes it across, 10 total, like this:
It would be an $80 overpay each time an inside number was hit. The player could be covering multiple spots and still have an enormous edge.
On the other hand, I'm still skeptical that even over 2 hours he'd be able to amass $5000 by pure luck, even with this overpay. The dealer must also have been able to sector shoot or control the ball somehow. If the wheel is spinning slowly enough, it's doable. Check youtube for lots of videos.
