So whats his stuff about "loose" and payout?

I've no particular idea why I am so averse to "one arm bandits". Perhaps I just view it as being merely reel gambling rather than real gambling. I've never seen much difference between loose, looser and loosest but it seems everybody in town claims to have the loosest slots, with one off-strip casino claiming until a few weeks ago that the odds were in the players favor!

All a slot machine does these days is slice a second into about 12,000 split-seconds and generate a "random" number for each of them, using the most recently generated number whenever that handle is pulled. (Okay... most don't even have handles anymore they just have that red button. And, yeah, I know... the Random Number Generator does not really generate random numbers, its merely a pseudo random number generator but the casinos seem to think its random enough for them even if it can't be proven to be random enough for the purists).

The trouble is that in calculating this "looseness" percentage, there seems to be a step where they compare money taken in to money paid out. We all know that some trivial payout of a few quarters just gets fed back into the machine and is not really a payout at all. So can anyone tell me what an average slot machine's percentage is based on substantial payouts? (I would never consider a five or ten dollar prize on a million-dollar lottery to be part of the payout).

Say its a dollar slot machine (if thats a convenient figure to use) ... whats the payout percentage based upon prizes of 100.00 or more. I know the casinos rarely actually have quarters dropping into a noisy metal tray anymore, but a few of those quarters dribbling back in shouldn't be counted as payout, since players just add them to their bucket.

I just rely on the fact that I'm not going to play any game where an idiot has the same chances as me. If it can't be played badly, it can't be played well. I stick with poker tables and video poker, where there isn't necessarily a house edge.

Quote: RayMills

If it can't be played badly, it can't be played well. I stick with poker

I am living proof that poker can be played very, very badly.

I understand what you mean though about the idiot who is merely pressing a red button: no skill involved at all. Atleast at craps you have the "skill" to avoid listening to that darned stickman's patter. Thats about all.

Quote: RayMills

I just rely on the fact that I'm not going to play any game where an idiot has the same chances as me. If it can't be played badly, it can't be played well. I stick with poker tables and video poker, where there isn't necessarily a house edge.

Well, there IS a house edge at poker. The rake, isn't it?

Quote: wernerw

Well, there IS a house edge at poker. The rake, isn't it?

I don't think the rake, blinds or customary tips are considered a casino edge. A player's skill and sobriety seem to be the only edge at poker.

The 1X and 2X small payouts are considered part of the "payout percentage" of the machine. And yes they are almost always put back in the machine.
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One of the illusions that slot machines use is that people automatically assume that risk and payouts are somehow proportional. That is true in games such as craps which are played with dice. If the payout is 10 times as much, the odds of hitting it are close to 10 times as hard. However, in craps there is a higher house edge for bigger payouts. Roulette is similar.
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However, the slot machine can be programmed in any way the company wants. The Wizard did explain one slot machine in detail. The odds of getting 1X and 3X were fairly high, and the odds of getting 10X and 20X were very low. The odds of getting 80X were relatively very high (something like once every 200 spins). That payback is the excitement builder. It is high enough to get you excited, but not high enough to make you quit. But the probability of hitting a 200X or something higher were very low (roughly once ever 6000 spins).
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Every aspect of the machine is designed to play on your psyche.

Small wins that get bet again ARE considered part of the payout. They are considered part of your total coin-in when calculating comps too.

When ever I hear somebody that won say that they are betting with the casino's money, I want to slap them. Once you win it, it's YOUR money!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Small wins that get bet again ARE considered part of the payout. They are considered part of your total coin-in when calculating comps too.
When ever I hear somebody that won say that they are betting with the casino's money, I want to slap them. Once you win it, it's YOUR money!

What you've said here is all good and true and sensible, but I was more asking for a Real World approach.

In theory each and every slot player absolutely totally and completely knows that if he gets two quarters to drop into that metal tray, that he can pick them up and put them in his pocket rather than in his bucket of quarters. (Yeah, I'm using old time terminology but you can translate it all to the modern world of red buttons and bar codes.) Its just that in reality no one ever pockets those trivial payouts. Everyone just feeds them back into the maw.

Its the same thing with money which has been successfully wagered. The payouts are known by the player to have been earned by him as part of his having put the funds at risk. However, the players feel that "its the casino's money" and so the player can be more risk prone than he otherwise might be.

I was trying to get a REAL WORLD approach. A slot machine's payout (to me) refers only to the more substantial sums that might be disgorged. If the return on investment comes as dribs and drabs... then the payout is zilch. Only the lawyers would say that was a "payout".

The churn in slot machines is extraordinary. It is the easiest thing in the world to take the credits that you've won and continue playing them down to nothing. Most people don't have the discipline to "walk" when they are up a small amount. (It's easier to do in blackjack or craps since there is the physical motion of putting the chips on the felt and waiting for the deal or throw). Therefore, people will only "walk" when they've hit a substantial payout -- usually $100 or more for your average minnow slot player. This is one reason why penny slots have such a great win number. Instead of substantial payouts, you win a small amount equal to or less than your bet every three or four spins or so. It's just a relentless grind. At least on the quarter slots at $0.75 a throw you had the possibility of a 500 or 1,000 coin payout which was not that rare.

Sorry, that is a long way of sidestepping your question. I also have no attraction to slot machines, although I do find them fun. When I was playing slots to earn comps at the Harrah's chain, I only played enough to earn 23 points, and then quit, no matter if I was up or ahead. I played three-reel, three quarter slots. I actually came out pretty close to even.

Even if a player decided to cash out before grinding it to zero, what happens next?

More likely than not, he takes that ticket to a different machine and tries the grind again.

Unless the player tracks the coin in and out on every spin, the only accounting of a player's payout, would be when he gets home, counts his wallet, and subtrats from the starting bankroll.