clarkacal
clarkacal
Joined: Sep 22, 2010
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 401
May 15th, 2011 at 9:34:56 AM permalink
I logged in to my 5 dimes acct last night and was very pleasantly surprised to read a message waiting for me from the management. It stated I was credited back my net losses on one of their video poker games due to the payout being incorrectly programmed. So far I have not received any credit, and I just went back to the message to copy it onto here but I see it has been erased. That's not a good sign. I copy and pasted it though so I have proof from a chat with management. They said they weren't familiar with the situation and that I should get back with them in 30-60 min after they check it out. I will keep you all informed of any developments.

This is very puzzling to me that they would say they are unfamiliar with this and then erase the message on my acct. Would be great if it happens though as I am down on that game over 7k net.
clarkacal
clarkacal
Joined: Sep 22, 2010
  • Threads: 42
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May 15th, 2011 at 1:18:22 PM permalink
Just wanted to make the forum members aware that this kind of stuff goes on at online sportsbooks. I don't think I have any recourse other than making it public, but if anyone has advice on what to do about this I'd love some. This is the rather lengthy chat session regarding the above issue:

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Billy'
Billy: Hello. How may I assist you today?
clark: hi
clark: my act is xxx
clark: I received a message saying I was credited my losses on Royal Jackpot deuces wild video poker but I have not received any credit
Billy: Just a moment please
clark: ok
Billy: Can you confirm the password on your account?
clark: xxx
Billy: Just a moment please
clark: ok
Billy: What casino were you using?
clark: bonus
Billy: Just a moment please
clark: The message said the game had an incorrect payout programmed so I was credited
clark: but I have not received any
Billy: Message where?
You are not currently in a chat session.
You are not currently in a chat session.

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Ian'
Ian: Hello. How may I assist you today?
clark: Ian I was just chatting with Billy and got cut off may I reconnect?
Ian: Sure
Ian: Just a moment please
Please wait while I transfer the chat to 'Billy'.
You are now chatting with 'Billy'
Billy: Where did you get that message?
clark: when I first login
clark: I ll copy and paste it hold on
clark: Please be aware you were credited back the losses accrued playing (VP) Royal Jackpot Deuces Wild from 03/01/11 to 05/09/11 on the Bonus Casino due to the game having an incorrect payout setting. The pay out for the game has now been adjusted to fair price. Feel free to contact us if you have any further questions. Dear Customer,
Billy: Just a moment please
clark: ok
Billy: My manager is now checking into this for you, he is asking if you could contact us back in about 30-60 minutes.
clark: ok shoukd I ask to be reconnected with you?
clark: should
Billy: Sure that is fine.
clark: ok thanks

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Diana'
Diana: Hello. How may I assist you today?
clark: hi, may I be reconnected with Billy please?
Diana: Just a moment please
Please wait while I transfer the chat to 'Billy'.
You are now chatting with 'Billy'
Billy: Hello. How may I assist you today?
clark: hi it's Clark again. I had received the mesage from management you were checking on?
Billy: Sure just a moment.
clark: ok
Billy: That message was placed on your account by mistake, that is why there is no credit back on your account, as per my manager.
clark: Billy please explain how that could be done by mistake
clark: I am down over 7k on that game and if I had been playing a flawed game...
Billy: The message was not meant for you account.
clark: Those were the exact dates I started and stopped playing that particular game. Quite a coincidence.
Billy: Just a moment please
clark: I have been a loyal customer for over 2 yrs and I like your site, if there is something else going on just please explain it and I will probably understand
Billy: As soon as the general manager determine that you were a pro casino player, that type of bonus does not apply to your account, so the message was a mistake.
clark: A pro casino player?
clark: What in the world are you talking about
clark: IF the payout is incorrect its incorrect
Billy: That is as per our general manager sir, I just follow orders.
Billy: Your account is not eligible for any type of bonus.
clark: Ok, how is a refund of losses on a flawed game considered a bonus?
Billy: In order for you to receive any bonus you must re deposit the amount of your payouts.
Billy: Not a bonus but a credit.
Billy: Sorry that is what I meant.
Please wait while I transfer the chat to 'Ernest'.
You are not currently in a chat session.
You are now chatting with 'Ernest'
Ernest: Hello, Clark
clark: Hi
clark: My previous chat with Billy was a bit bizarre
clark: I'm hoping you can clarify
Ernest: it appears the message you saw was placed in your account by mistake
Ernest: I apologize about that
clark: Thats what he said
clark: but how is it a mistake, those were the exact dates I played that game
Ernest: your player profile does not apply for this credit
clark: he said I was a "pro"?
clark: what does that mean?
clark: WHat is my player profile?
Ernest: yes, it's been determined you're not an average player
clark: lol
clark: thank you
clark: Is that a good thing?
clark: How am I not an average player?
Ernest: it is for you
clark: And what does that have to do with me losing in a flawed game?
Ernest: it wasn't flawed
Ernest: it was flawed for some customers
clark: Could yo please explain that statement?
Ernest: you're not one of those, if you were you'd have the credit the note was referring to
clark: you
clark: How it can be flawed for some but not others?
Ernest: because you're not an average player, your history proves it
Ernest: so the settings in your casino play are fine
clark: I assure you I am not cheating if thats what you are jinting, I was trying to figure out how to take a screenshot last night with no success.
clark: hinting
Ernest: not at all
clark: oh ok
Ernest: au contraire, I'm saying you're a very good player
clark: oh ok thanks
clark: I um
clark: I dont understand the statement,"the settings in your casino play are fine" though, do I have different settings? I am not trying to badger you, I just want to feel confident in playing at your site
clark: Are you still there?
Ernest: sorry, yes, still here
Ernest: what I mean to say was that the recreational players were the ones affected by this
Ernest: you're not one of those
clark: Once again, how can some be affected by it but not others? And I am recreational, I just have lots of free time. Have you seen how much Igamble and the games Ive played? Yes I killed full pay deuces but I got like 18 royal flushes. And its an easy game. Can't people win at your site?
Ernest: they sure can, have not been winning?
clark: I bet 500 a game sports, avg. You know this
clark: At what?
clark: I lost about 5k the other night at deuces wild
Ernest: well, you still have taken out 19k more than you've deposited
Ernest: I really don't see the problem, Clark
Ernest: the message was posted by mistake in your account, that was all
clark: The problem I see is if there was a problem with the programming in a game that was represented to be fair, everyone who played it should be compensated. How can you pick and choose because someone is ahead?
clark: Look I really like your site and you give people a fighting chance, but this doesn't fly, do you think?
Ernest: I still don't see the problem, your account was not affected by this as it has deemed to be a more professional type of play
Ernest: you still win, it's not like we're preventing you from that
clark: Ernest, winning or losing is chance, that doesn't mean I shouldn't be credited from a flawed game. Come on you have to see that. And Im really curious, what part of my play is professional?
Ernest: again, the game was NOT flawed
clark: Once again, im not trying to waste your time, I just think you guys are the best online site and I have told dozens of people.
clark: but this is crazy
Ernest: Tony, our General Manager determined your account and action is more professional
clark: That you would credit people that played that game suggest there was a problem Ernest
Ernest: for some people, not for all of them
clark: How is that possible
Ernest: I've been pretty clear on that
clark: Same payout schedule for everyone
Ernest: not all accounts are the same
clark: Oh you adjust the payout schedule is what you are saying
Ernest: and yours, like I said before, show a professional type of action and play
clark: Is that what you are saying, I have a different payout schedule?
clark: Still there Ernest?
clark: Or are you done with me?
Ernest: I'm saying your account is not a recreational account, your game pattern is different from regular accounts
Ernest: no, your payout schedule is not different from other accounts
clark: Well when you don't tell me what makes me a pro I can't defend myself very well. Second year ever betting on games by the way. Ernest, a malfunction on a game is a malfunction for all players that have played it, not just your favorites. You're on some dangerous ground here.
Ernest: we don't have favorites, but your game pattern doesn't make you eligible for the credit the note was about
clark: We aren't getting anywhere, but I have to go unfortunately. I hope this can be resolved later.
Ernest: there's nothing to resolve, sir
Ernest: This decision has been made by management
clark: Doesn't look good Ernest.
clark: But thanks for chatting
Ernest: You're welcome
clark: Bye
JimMorrison
JimMorrison
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 21
  • Posts: 597
May 15th, 2011 at 3:37:04 PM permalink
Pretty standard chat with casino support honestly. If you're up $19k I'm surprised you weren't cutoff long before. Be glad you got paid, I know of others that 5 Dimes is stiffing right now. I have a feeling the message you received was for them, voiding their winnings and refunding losses.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody help me?"
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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May 15th, 2011 at 3:51:00 PM permalink
Cases like this are why the U.S. needs to authorize and regulate online gaming. If a properly regulated casino tried to pull that sort of double-switch they'd get hit with a fine and possibly worse. Adopting the position that "we've determined that you're not eligible for the advertised credit/bonus/promotion due to some criterion we've just made up on the spot" should be illegal, but that's only possible where there are enforceable laws.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
clarkacal
clarkacal
Joined: Sep 22, 2010
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 401
May 15th, 2011 at 6:46:08 PM permalink
Quote: JimMorrison

I have a feeling the message you received was for them, voiding their winnings and refunding losses.


I hadn't thought of that possibility.

The payout schedule they had for quite awhile paid 112%, but the variance and risk of ruin was really high and that's how I thought they justified it. It sounds like maybe they made a mistake initially setting the payouts and now want to cancel all the winning action, which would be scandalous. Especially since they are deciding to keep the losing action.

Can't say for sure because they won't give me a straight answer.
Jufo81
Jufo81
Joined: May 23, 2010
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 312
May 16th, 2011 at 12:13:06 AM permalink
There was a thread about 5Dimes seizing 14,500 in winnings in another forum:
http://www.beatingbonuses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6233

The OP of that thread also said that he found a high player edge game. Maybe your case had something to do with this (the suggestion made in previous post that the message you received was actually to void winnings and refund deposit).

Quote: clarkacal


The payout schedule they had for quite awhile paid 112%, but the variance and risk of ruin was really high and that's how I thought they justified it.



112%? Not in hell can you expect to walk away with that. Besides the variance can be adjusted by using smaller value coins?
clarkacal
clarkacal
Joined: Sep 22, 2010
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 401
May 16th, 2011 at 5:47:09 AM permalink
Jufo, what am I walking away with? I lost over 7k at that game. When I was playing that game my thinking was, yes they know the player has a +ev, but the player only collects on a royal flush and 4 deuces, extremely rare hands. Many players would go bust before they see a profit.

The only coin value ranged from 5 cents to 25 cents, not a big range. I figured yes it was a gamble, but I will keep a proper bankroll and give it a shot. That's what we strive to do here, right? So you say I can't expect to walk away with this 112% edge. I don't see how we can be successful in gambling if we use our logic and tools available to us to determine when we have an edge, but then submit to the mercy of the casino who you seem to believe has the right to retroactively cancel all the action on a specific game except for the profitable action, which it keeps.
JimMorrison
JimMorrison
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 21
  • Posts: 597
May 16th, 2011 at 6:01:46 AM permalink
Quote: clarkacal

Jufo, what am I walking away with? I lost over 7k at that game. When I was playing that game my thinking was, yes they know the player has a +ev, but the player only collects on a royal flush and 4 deuces, extremely rare hands. Many players would go bust before they see a profit.

The only coin value ranged from 5 cents to 25 cents, not a big range. I figured yes it was a gamble, but I will keep a proper bankroll and give it a shot. That's what we strive to do here, right? So you say I can't expect to walk away with this 112% edge. I don't see how we can be successful in gambling if we use our logic and tools available to us to determine when we have an edge, but then submit to the mercy of the casino who you seem to believe has the right to retroactively cancel all the action on a specific game except for the profitable action, which it keeps.



That's the business of online though, you never know when an online casino is going to stiff you. Unless it was a glitch or something they weren't aware of I would never expect to get paid on a 12% player advantage. Are you sure on your math though? That seems ridiculously high for them to offer. I know they have +EV games and I also know they've stiffed people in the past but 112% seems pretty insane to offer.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody help me?"
clarkacal
clarkacal
Joined: Sep 22, 2010
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 401
May 16th, 2011 at 6:10:39 AM permalink
If it was on JoB or some other game with a reasonable amount of variance I would agree.

This was called "Royal Jackpot Deuces Wild", and the only paying hands were 4 deuces for 12500 coins and Royal w no deuces for 55000. With this sky high variance I did not suspect I was taking advantage, just thought it was another 5dimes gimmick. To lend support to my claim of innocence, I am down over 7k on this game. It was far from easy money.
JimMorrison
JimMorrison
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 21
  • Posts: 597
May 16th, 2011 at 6:14:24 AM permalink
Quote: clarkacal

If it was on JoB or some other game with a reasonable amount of variance I would agree.

This was called "Royal Jackpot Deuces Wild", and the only paying hands were 4 deuces for 12500 coins and Royal w no deuces for 55000. With this sky high variance I did not suspect I was taking advantage, just thought it was another 5dimes gimmick. To lend support to my claim of innocence, I am down over 7k on this game. It was far from easy money.



If it was truly a 12% player advantage then you knew you were taking advantage albeit with a lot of variance. I'm not faulting you for that, I take advantage of online casinos daily, but you have to know you don't always get paid. I'd go to SBR and file a dispute. If that doesn't work raise hell over at CasinoMeister, he's corrupt and on the take, but once in a while he comes thru. I don't believe WOO mediates casino disputes anymore so not much you'll gain here. SBR is your best bet since 5 Dimes has a great rating with them. If SBR doesn't come thru then I don't think you'll ever see a dime.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody help me?"

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