Biased Dice: The science begins

Casinos also utilize "Coolers" as well as other goofy ploys like having the boxman never talk to the shooter unless he's on a hot roll. But I agree with Jimbo, a scientific thread needs to concentrate on the real reason casinos use unbalance dice. IMO, That is to increase the house edge on both sides of play. It is no coincidence that unbalanced dice used by the Casinos produce 1 roll bet numbers more than fair dice.

That is why crapless tables are very limited in Las Vegas.

FWIW I have been KILLING crapless craps. I have not had a SINGLE losing session on a crapless craps table yet! I don't roll much hi or lo, but I love getting paid on the ace-deuce odds!!!!

Quote: SanchoPanza

A hell of a lot quicker and far more accurate way to determine any aberrations is to conduct materials analyses of the objects in question. Presumably without even having to resort to mass spectrometry.

Quote: Bohemian

SanchoPanza, been done, see video evidence here:Table of Content and links to each video:
Unbalanced Dice Follow Up Videos By Koganinja777

A colossal waste of time and an insult to our intelligence. If there are recordings of dice being weighed, materials being assayed and pips analyzed, among a number of other truly scientific criteria, I would like to see links to them. Not some sales spiels to give lessons.

Quote: Bohemian

A scientific thread needs to concentrate on the real reason casinos use unbalance dice. IMO, That is to increase the house edge on both sides of play.

How versatile! How ambidextrous!!!

Ahigh, do you think they were pulling your leg (chain)?

Quote: tupp

I am getting a little concerned about you. Your posts are getting crazier and your mentality is becoming disturbingly dense. Either you are off your meds, or you have to be the dimmest bulb that I have ever encountered.

That's pushing it, just make sure you stay on the right side of the borderline if you're going to make a habit of toeing it.

Well Mission, I found it to be entirely truthfull. In fact if we can banish Alan from commenting, on Ahigh's posts, for a month or so, we might get some work done on the main thrusts of his posts. The constant bickering and backbiting is getting old.

Quote: Ahigh

I don't even want to be associated with people who are counting faces! It's sort of the type of thing that puts a weird association of being retarded just to even think there's any value to looking at face counts.

Wasn't it your idea to do a face count? Haven't you done face counts in the past for your own stats? Or are you just being sarcastic here?

Since I can only read your words and can't "read" your facial expressions or tone of voice for sarcasm, would you please clarity?

And I don't doubt that you were told at the Silverton or other casinos about a "casino superstition" but then I don't play at such places. The places where I play superstitions do not run the pit. But I've never set foot in the Silverton. And do you think they were just pulling your leg, maybe?

Quote: DeMango

Well Mission, I found it to be entirely truthfull. In fact if we can banish Alan from commenting, on Ahigh's posts, for a month or so, we might get some work done on the main thrusts of his posts. The constant bickering and backbiting is getting old.

Sorry DeMango, but I have to keep you guys honest and protect you from going off into the deep end. :-)

By the way, you might help here by asking Ahigh what he really thinks about counting faces? Please note my post above which quotes Ahigh.

Quote: Mission146

That's pushing it, just make sure you stay on the right side of the borderline if you're going to make a habit of toeing it.

You're right. Sorry for taking it that far.

If I ran a Craps table and it was 'dumping', I'd change the dice. A precaution against the very slight possibility loaded dice were introduced.

Quote: Ahigh

[Floor personnel] pull dice off the table when they are dumping and put new dice on the table until the table doesn't dump. Whether it's on an hour by hour basis or a day by day basis makes no difference. They want the dice that have the better holds.

Quote: Ahigh

this is absolutely true and I stand by it. This information is based on observation....I think the phrase I would quote from Patrick [Boxperson and Dealer] is, "any time the table is dumping, I'll change the dice."

Quote: Wizard

Sadly, I don't doubt this.

The reason I questioned this statement that dice are changed throughout the day based on whether the table is dumping is that I have not personally observed this. And please don't question whether I've had enough experience. I've played at many places and for countless hours over the years.

Out of curiosity, I did a little checking on this. I talked to a couple of casino directors in different states and also reviewed some state regulations.

Here is what I determined.

With the exception of perhaps Las Vegas--the regulations of which I did not check--but at least where I made my inquiries, the changing of dice does NOT occur based on the whim or belief of some floor personnel as to what the table is doing. In most states, and particularly in Indiana where I play most often, the regulations are explicit and somewhat lengthy about the control and handling of dice by the casino and what must be done to change out the dice.

As a matter of policy and state regulations, new dice is entered into play when the table is opened. That dice is cancelled when the table is closed at the end of the day--so that additional new dice is used the next day when the table is reopened. (Qualification here: there may be exceptions or this may not be exactly the case everywhere, but this is what occurs based on my inquiries.)

The dice are obviously checked throughout the day and in the event the dice are damaged or flawed or believed to be tampered with, then there are procedures to replace the dice. This has to be logged and documented.

This process of changing out the dice basically requires the direct action of the shift manager in most cases. There is an involved procedure to place the new dice into the game. The dice that is removed must be "cancelled" (such as drilling a hole). Again, there are logs and records that must be maintained documenting all of this.

I know one instance only when dice was changed out during play when I was present. A shooter accidentally threw the dice off the table and one of the die could not be found. (It was probably picked up by a slot player nearby and pocketed as a souvenir.) Because the set of 5 dice was incomplete, the casino had to change out the dice for a new set of 5 dice. I recall this taking a little bit of time while the players had to wait. (They did this between shooters.)

Incidentally, if the casino believes the dice have been tampered with and it is for this reason that the dice are changed, then the procedure is even more involved. The dice must be set aside and placed in a sealed envelope, noted as such, and delivered to an enforcement agent (from the gaming commission).

Based on my personal experience and based on my inquiries, other than at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day, or when the dice are damaged or flawed, the dice are NOT changed. This assumes that the dice are checked regularly and frequently throughout the day and there is no suspected tampering.

As for Las Vegas, it may be that the regulations there are not as strict regarding the changing of dice. It may be that the casinos have a much more loose policy. It may be that the boxperson or immediate floor supervisor has more authority to change the dice. One of the benefits of this Forum is that I learn new things.

Regardless, I personally do not believe that dice are changed out in order that the casino may intentionally introduce bias dice. The casinos have nothing to gain by cheating--since they will win anyway based on their favorable house edge. On the other hand, they have everything to lose if they are caught.

I have learned a few things from the discussion of this issue and also from several other issues that have been discussed in this Forum regarding the practice of various casinos:

1. In most instances, the management of the craps game is very similar throughout the industry. There are some exceptions, most of which are not material or vital.

2. Dealers and floor personnel can be just as silly and superstitious as some players and they may decide things based on their silly beliefs. These individual decisions may not be consistent with their own casino policy and these decisions may be contrary to industry practice. But we deal with it.

3. One of the more inane views of some dealers or floor supervisors is that the money that is lost to players (through luck and/or variance, and assuming there is no illegal player activity or cheating), is that it is "their" money that is lost, as opposed to the casino's money, and they take it personally and act irrationally on this misplaced belief. Again, we must deal with it.

4. It may be that the floor supervisor is concerned about being blamed for the table dumping or that the floor supervisor may be accused of not sufficiently protecting the casino, and as a result, the floor supervisor imposes some silly practice (such as changing the dice) to "cover his ass."

I accept that some people on this Forum have observed the changing of the dice by individuals based on whether the table is dumping or not. I tend to think this practice is limited to some individuals who are in the position to do this. I also tend to think--just my opinion--that this practice is not necessarily the established policy of the casino or of the casino industry generally.

Quote: Wizard

A friend of mine dealt at the Gold Coast years ago and he said they kept some dice in the refrigerator, in case a table was running too hot.

I've heard this same thing several times over the years--always said jokingly. I assume your friend was joking as well. But maybe not. If not, then this proves my point--some dealers and floor personnel can be just a silly and superstitious as some players.

I think the question really is this: has the casino ever forced a shooter to give up the dice he is using because new dice have been brought to the table?

New dice are brought to tables all the time -- at least twice a day at the casinos where I play -- but the dice changed at the table is always done before the next shooter chooses his two dice to throw.

If a casino were to tell a shooter that he had to switch out the dice he was using I would be suspicious, but I can't be suspicious of dice being changed out between shooters.

Quote:

Alan M
I think the question really is this: has the casino ever forced a shooter to give up the dice he is using because new dice have been brought to the table?

New dice are brought to tables all the time -- at least twice a day at the casinos where I play -- but the dice changed at the table is always done before the next shooter chooses his two dice to throw.

If a casino were to tell a shooter that he had to switch out the dice he was using I would be suspicious, but I can't be suspicious of dice being changed out between shooters.

Alan M I hate to tell you this, but I've had the dice changed on me so many time I can't count them all. They slip the dice in when a point is made, or when they started an argument. I pick up on it right away when I pick up the dice, and thank them for changing out the dice, telling them I love it when they put in new dice.

There have been times when the box ask to see the dice in the bowl, then the next thing you know is there are new dice in the game.
I've also had them do it when the next shooter seven out and the dice came back to me, only too find that they slipped in new dice!

Sorry it's happened to you. Never happened to me or to anyone else. The casinos I've played craps at including: Caesars, Bellagio, Mandalay, NYNY, MGM, Fiesta North, Red Rock and my favorite... the Gold Strike in Jean on the I-15.

Just like super Rick, I have had the dice switched on me several times...I laugh everytime... I pretty much know their dice change out schedule, and a 'new set' and a table raise always follows my rolls... I guess it's just respect..

Quote: Bohemian

Wizard, this is wonderful work, but maybe as a baseline study only. I do not have Midgley's book in front of me now, but if I recall correctly this roll data is from 1978ish ? No wonder 2 of the casinos are now obsolete. Caesar's is NOW using some of the worst reported biased dice, maybe they had to change their operations formula from using fair dice to semi-survive.

Verified. Midgley dice rolls were recorded all in 1978 according to page 33 of his book published in 1980.

Quote: Bohemian

Caesar's is NOW using some of the worst reported biased dice, maybe they had to change their operations formula from using fair dice to semi-survive.

I am still curious as to where are these published reports that Caesar's is "using some of the worst reported biased dice." What is the source for how you can make such a statement?

Quote: Jimbo

I am still curious as to where are these published reports that Caesar's is "using some of the worst reported biased dice." What is the source for how you can make such a statement?

A report, technically, is anybody else (EG: on his dice team) telling him about the results they are observing from the dice. Please don't hijack this thread guys. I imagine FACE and Wizard have already lost enough motivation to participate in this. 10,000 samples is only $100 to me and I hope we get there. But if we keep arguing about the junk that's already published about biased dice, we're going to get nowhere.

What we need are samples from respected members of this forum. Not arguments between people who subscribe to Harley's beliefs and people who question the belief systems of such people. We have already driven that line of discussion all the way to the end. It's interesting drama, but very non-productive.

Wow... this thread is still going on looking for some bias that the experienced crew somehow misses yet the players pick up on and which takes place during the customary and ordinary life of the die yet escapes notice by the casino's computers or green eye shaded personnel.

Think back to those slightly over sized sleeves ... painted to look like a stack of reds but hollowed out and filled with a stack of blacks. Now you work those into a game ... and even if nobody notices the physical object, the computers noticed that late in the swing shift the tables were running at a loss and therefore something had to be wrong.

So lets say a die gets nicked, crew fails to notice it, players somehow pick up on it, table starts running "hot" for the players ... ah , but hold it... a nicked die could at most make the table start running luke warm..... but even then, the computers will pick up on it even if the staff don't.

The life cycle of the dice just don't allow for sufficient nicks and cuts to be inflicted but not noticed. Its similar to an ordinary aircraft wing. All those nicks and dents and dead bugs mean its no longer "theoretically pure" but it sure still flies well enough.

You might just as well hang out at the tables looking for a twenty year employee who suddenly turns to collusion.
Its going to be rare and when it does happen it will be noticed.

You know what? It occurred to me that the worst case scenario of biased dice is still not as bad as a crapless table's increased edge as I left the Stratosphere last night.

IE: the worst case scenario is still not THAT big of a deal!!!

And with that in mind, ABSOLUTELY the crews can fail to notice it!

But the subject isn't how big of a deal it is, to me. I want to just know if it is true.

The edge isn't going to more than double on the passline. And on crapless it's TRIPLE just from the math alone.

If the edge on the pass line more than doubles, there's a player edge flat-betting the don't with no lay odds!

The flimsy arguments that it doesn't happen because someone would notice it fail to account for the amount of difference that may be occurring if it's true. IE: not much.

The slim difference is why we needs TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SAMPLES to know anything at all!

Quote: Jimbo

I've heard this same thing several times over the years--always said jokingly. I assume your friend was joking as well. But maybe not. If not, then this proves my point--some dealers and floor personnel can be just a silly and superstitious as some players.

I should ask my friend how he knows this, since he didn't deal craps. However, he did say he was reprimanded for saying "good luck" to a player, because they didn't want to actually give players good luck.

Quote: Bohemian

Caesar's is NOW using some of the worst reported biased dice, maybe they had to change their operations formula from using fair dice to semi-survive.

With that, I think I'm going to excuse myself from this thread. If somebody posts more numerical evidence, feel free to PM me with the URL of the post.

Quote: Wizard

With that, I think I'm going to excuse myself from this thread. If somebody posts more numerical evidence, feel free to PM me with the URL of the post.

I don't blame you. I have lost a lot of interest after comments from Bohemian as well.

I believe Biased dice will remain their domain.

Quote: Ahigh

The edge isn't going to more than double on the pass line. And on crapless it's TRIPLE just from the math alone. If the edge on the pass line more than doubles, there's a player edge flat-betting the don't with no lay odds!

At the risk of violating strict and heavy copyright rules, let me state that it might be a good idea to consult the authority on such subjects:
"CRAPLESS CRAPS
In my Ten Commandments of Gambling I advise that you avoid gimmicks, and Crapless Craps is an illustrated example. In this game the player cannot lose a pass bet on the come out roll. If any number other than a 7 is rolled on the come out roll it, becomes the point. What you are giving up is the sure winner of 11 on the come out roll. To the mathematically challenged, it may seem a good deal, that you are only giving up 1 sure winner for 3 sure losers. The catch is that the probability of hitting a point of 2 or 12 is only 1/7, and the probability of hitting a point of 3 or 11 is only 1/4. So the player is not gaining much on the 2, 3, and 12, since the player will likely lose anyway, but is giving up a sure winner on 11 for only a 1/4 chance of winning. Over all, the house edge on the pass bet in crapless craps is 373/6930 =~5.382%. . . .

Crapless craps does offer free odds of 6-1 on the 2 and12, and 3-1 on the 3 and 11. The following table shows the combined house edge by combining the pass line and the odds:

You can also make place bets on the 2, 3, 11, and 12. The2 and 12 pay 11-2 with a house edge of 7.143%. The 3 and 11pay 11-4 with a house edge of 6.250%. THERE IS NO DON'T PASS BET IN THIS GAME.

You can also make buy bets. On points of 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 the odds are the same as regular craps. The following table shows the odds on the 2, 3, 11, and 12. One reader claims they only charge the commission on wins in Mississippi but I'll list it both ways."

The edge per roll is roughly triple. The Wizard fails to get into the details that the pass line bet lasts for more rolls in crapless as it is more easily dismissed by the Wizard.

I posted a very thorough analysis of the edges in crapless, and this is just another lack of understanding based on analysis per roll versus per bet resolved.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/13414-crapless-craps-revisited/#post228642

The edge per roll is 1.29% on crapless and 0.42% on craps. 1.29 / .42 = 3.02 .. this might be off a little, but it's triple in general... When you factor in odds bets, line with odds on crapless is less than triple on the edge per roll (because of having more odds bets available in general in crapless).

Looking at your red text, though, I'm talking about if biased dice more than double the edge on the pass line, there is a player edge on the don't pass on regular craps.

IE: for the edge per roll to get higher in craps than in crapless, there will have to be a player edge on the don't pass line. And the field goes to a HUGE player edge as well if it's more hi's and lo's.

Quote: Wizard

With that, I think I'm going to excuse myself from this thread. If somebody posts more numerical evidence, feel free to PM me with the URL of the post.

I don't blame you. Getting into this made me think, and the more I think, the more I find the whole thing ludicrous. My two arguments...

Accidental Biased Dice; The Ignorant Scenario - In order for these to even exist, the manufacturers would have to be slacking big time. Despite any rules and regs that may or may not exist, I can't imagine any of them allowing their QC to slack to such an extent as to put their reputations at risk. A confirmation of bunk dice would be a huge blow to them and I have to imagine they're a little more on top of their game than that. Strike 1.

If we take a leap and assume BD do exist despite or regardless of the manufacturers QC, then the casinos themselves would have to likewise be very foolish to not have the tools in place to prevent them from being used. A confirmation would be just as if not more damaging at a casino, and further, an unobserved bias would have just as much potential to harm than help. Strike 2.

The way I collect my data is the same way a BD player must collect his/hers. There is simply no way to keep track of individual dice. There have been comments aplenty from the bright minds of this forum, all saying BD cannot be confirmed in this manner. Need anything more be said? Strike 3, 5 yard penalty.

Purposeful Biased Dice; The Conspiracy Scenario - I'll try to get through this with out laughing. The manufacturers, I assume, would have to create multiple sets biased toward different numbers, lest folks catch on and start betting with the bias or just betting on it accidentally. There would have to be some sort of extra process separate from the mass production line, one which has somehow not had a whistle blown on it yet. And to what end? Casino kickbacks? Wouldn't those have come to light already as well? Hard to believe Paulson or whoever would risk their empire. Strike 1.

But assume they do. The casinos likewise would have to have some sort of scheme going on that not one of the thousands of Pit and Floors who have been unceremoniously let go have blown the whistle on. Pit and Floors that have the mental ability to follow the money going out and be able to determine exactly which numbers are "strong", what numbers most of the money is being lost at, and pull out the certain set of biased dice to counteract that. This from the "C and D students" so many lament. Right...Strike 2.

And to top it all of, the BD players would still have to identify the bias using the same data collection process that I just did which everyone said was worthless. And I don't know how long a BD player would play for, but dice typically "live" for 8 hours, and each of my sessions were at least 4. Bohemian said he attacks much earlier than 10,000 rolls, but based of my numbers, dice only live for about 400. Strike 3, 4 minute double minor.

After coming to the opinions listed above, I see no reason to continue torturing myself with mind rotting face counts. The only scenario I can possibly conceive re biased dice is that the bias I already opined that must exist is "good enough" for the QC and "good enough" for the casino, yet makes enough of a difference for a handful of brilliant minds to dissect and capitalize on. Not only do I still believe this impossible purely for the identification issues listed above, but I'm even unsure that an extreme bias would show up so strongly. So I have one more thing in the works...

I got my hands on some uncanceled casino dice. Although this is my "busy season" (and by "busy" I mean busy drinking beer and fishing ;p), I'm gonna load the balls off them and do some face counts that way. While I'm sure it must affect something, I'm not sure at all as to how extreme the bias must be to show a difference. Perhaps by doing so we can get an idea on what degree a bias must exist to affect things, and get a better idea if that is even conceivable in the casino world.

Quote: Ahigh

Looking at your red text, though, I'm talking about if biased dice more than double the edge on the pass line, there is a player edge on the don't pass on regular craps.

That is not what your two sentences, "And on crapless it's TRIPLE just from the math alone. If the edge on the pass line more than doubles, there's a player edge flat-betting the don't with no lay odds!," say.
The sole reference is to crapless craps and the tripling of the edge. The assertion in the second sentence of the excerpt clearly follows from the first. "Biased" dice do not enter into this passage at any point or even by implication.

Yeah, this whole thread has just gone south like all the others on the subject.

It is not exclusively the domain for experts such as Harley Horn and Koga Ninja!

The same thing happens in all consiracy theory threads, gambling or not. Someone claims there to be a conspiracy/bias, tons of crazy claims are made, and in the end those with higher inteligence give up knowing they will never be able to talk any sense into the other side.

Casinos do not use or switch in/out biased dice
There was no shooter in the grassy knoll
Yes, we did actually land on the moon
No, Elvis (Tupoc, Kurt Cobain and many others) is not alive and hiding
The government did not blow up the World Trade Center on 9/11 from the inside
There are no aliens being hidden by the governement
The holocaust did occur

Oh yeah, and nobody can throw legal craps throws and influence/control the outcome any different than a random shooter.

ZCore13

Quote: SanchoPanza

That is not what your two sentences, "And on crapless it's TRIPLE just from the math alone. If the edge on the pass line more than doubles, there's a player edge flat-betting the don't with no lay odds!," say.
The sole reference is to crapless craps and the tripling of the edge. The assertion in the second sentence of the excerpt clearly follows from the first. "Biased" dice do not enter into this passage at any point or even by implication.

You know what? I don't even know what you're trying to say, but without arguing let me try to re-state my points:

The maximum amount of "EXTRA" edge possible by INTENTIONALLY using biased dice without creating exposure on the don't pass line is double. IE: pass line edge goes from house edge of 1.41% to 2.82%. Beyond this, a player edge on the don't pass bet will be introduced.

This serves the purpose of demonstrating that the edge per roll being limited to 2x on the passline compared to using fair dice without creating exposure is to say that they already have ANOTHER game (crapless) with an edge per roll of THREE TIMES HIGHER and it's totally legit and legal and all that bull crap. And I even play this game (recently). In fact, biased dice would LOWER the edge on crapless rather than reduce it, even though I haven't done all the work to show how much aside from individual bets.

But anyway, the whole point of bringing ALL of this up is that double the edge on the pass line is NOT A BIG FREAKING DEAL EVEN. The worst case is NOT A BIG DEAL.

Whatever bias is there towards any particular BOX numbers is going to repeat those box numbers anyway. So you might have a PLAYER edge on the four and ten with these theoretically biased dice and might actually win MORE money in theory because you have more 4's and 10's being rolled. Even if the edge is higher on free bets for other box numbers, you have to hit that number first before having an opportunity to take the free bet, which reduces the chance that you to take it evening things out anyway.

But again .. the bottom line is .. wait for it ....... IT DOES NOT MAKE A HILL OF BEANS DIFFERENCE. Especially compared to some really horrible game like DOUBLE ZERO ROULETTE. Which coincidentally is Harley's main money-maker game!

So put me on the side of people who simply don't care anymore.

I was contacted by a casino company about this thread. It's pretty clear who I am so they had no trouble contacting me. This went too far. Way too far.

Ping Alan Mendelson: In view of the statement "If the edge on the pass line more than doubles, there's a player edge flat-betting the don't with no lay odds" combined with the repeated allegations of Caesar's use of biased dice, it could be advisable, dare we say, to jump to the other side. Feel free to ask about the alien turf.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I was contacted by a casino company about this thread. It's pretty clear who I am so they had no trouble contacting me. This went too far. Way too far.

As do all the baseless claims that take up dozens of threads now. I warned a few people months ago about bringing up specific casino names with slanderous allegations. Bad idea.

ZCore13

Worse than slander -- it's the Internet and it's libel. And the libel laws make the website owner/operator responsible for libelous posts even on a public forum.

Advice to Slander Lawyers: Who was that Masked Man??!!??

Task for Firm Research Dept: find translation of "Kemo Sabe"

Quote: AlanMendelson

I was contacted by a casino company about this thread. It's pretty clear who I am so they had no trouble contacting me. This went too far. Way too far.

Blame the Masked Man and his sidekick, you know who.
They can't win the fair way, so blame the dice.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I was contacted by a casino company about this thread. It's pretty clear who I am so they had no trouble contacting me. This went too far. Way too far.

Care to give out more detailed information? This sounds pretty damn vague, really. In light of your previous comments about being concerned about libel and what-not, I'm not surprised that you would say this, but I would love to see you prove that you're not just making this up!

Quote: Ahigh

I'm not surprised that you would say this, but I would love to see you prove that you're not just making this up!

This is hilarious! Who do the casinos get ahold of? Not
the famous-in-his-own-mind champion of craps, Ahigh,
who he claims is known to every craps dealer in town,
and they whisper about him when he's not there. No,
the casinos contact the guy who really has some fame,
Alan. And now Ahigh doesn't believe it, how could they
bypass him, the God of Craps..

Quote: Face

We all know that all die must have bias, since the tolerances aren't to aerospace+ standards.

That may be true. But I think to use the word "bias" here is a little misplaced. Not that it is a big deal. It may be only a question of semantics. When I think of the word "bias" I think it implies other things. For me, the fact that tolerances for dice could be more stringent (to "aerospace standards") means that "perfection" does not necessarily exist, as opposed to saying that "bias" exists.

Quote: Face

I know for a fact every single die is biased. I believe with all my heart that it's not enough to matter. I also believe that even if it was, it would at the very least be difficult to the point of impossibility for someone to identify a bias and take advantage.

Accepting your definition of "biased" to mean that the tolerances of dice are not to aerospace standards, I agree.

***

I will go further. I maintain throughout this discussion (or any discussion) of biased dice and this thread:

1. The basic premise for conducting this study (by Ahigh) was confusing and without direction. It was difficult, at best, to try to understand what this study was intended to show or what, exactly, this study could establish.

2. Certainly this study--as designed and as implemented--would not and could not prove the existence of biased dice.

3. Recording actual faces of individual die from different casinos and from different dice sources/manufacturers and from different dice sets--particularly in an actual casino environment with different shooters under varying table conditions--will show nothing other than the outcome of the numbers are within random expectation.

4. The process of manufacturing casino dice is not flawed and the dice are acceptable to insure random outcome of numbers to allow the game of craps to be played fairly (conceding, obviously, the inherent house edge) between the casino and the player. Regulations in place pertaining to the specifications for casino dice are adequate.

5. Stated differently, dice as currently manufactured and regulated may not be perfect, but the manufacturing process and regulations do insure that the dice are perfect enough for the purpose intended.

6. Biased dice are not used by casinos in an effort to secure a greater house edge for a game in which the house already has the edge. The casinos have nothing to gain and everything to lose by attempting to use biased dice.

7. Claims by some individuals that biased dice were used based on observation are not reliable. However, if such a claim should have merit, then there are regulations and procedures in place to address such a claim and to thoroughly investigate and examine the suspected biased dice. Responding to such unmerited claims by conducting this study (if that was, indeed, the intent) was and is useless.

8. Even assuming biased dice can be found to exist through some extreme analysis, measurement or study, it would be impossible for either the player or the casino to practically identify such biased dice during the course of play and to exploit such biased dice so as to gain an advantage.

9. Actions by casino staff to remove or change out dice for whatever perceived reason (other than dice to have been found to be tampered with or dice that is found to be flawed or damaged) does not prove the existence of biased dice. It may prove the casino staff is superstitious or suspicious or simply silly.

***

These statements/comments are not directed at Face, who undertook the task of recording individual die faces, I think, as a way of accommodating this discussion.

Quote: Face

However, there are those who say the bias is enough to be exploitable. Not only that, but that the manufacturers and even the casinos are in on it.

My response is that there are people who believe in many outlandish claims including the green-eyed monster. Without proof, it does not make it true.

And this study as designed and implemented by Ahigh does nothing to contribute to the discussion regarding the existence of exploitable biased dice--either in support of such claims or in refuting such claims.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I was contacted by a casino company about this thread.

Tell them we want more comps, no vig on lays and more match plays, especially those that can be hedged.

Quote: Jimbo

And this study as designed and implemented by Ahigh does nothing to contribute to the discussion regarding the existence of exploitable biased dice--either in support of such claims or in refuting such claims.

I earnestly await for your superior attempts to do a better job. Please take the wheel genius!

Quote: SanchoPanza

Tell them we want more comps, no vig on lays and more match plays, especially those that can be hedged.

LOL

Quote: Ahigh

I earnestly await for your superior attempts to do a better job. Please take the wheel genius!

Nobody else wants to take on a task where the premis has no merit. You keep trying to prove things that don't exist. What's next? An in depth investigation into the existance of the tooth fairy? It will go something like this:

Ahigh - The tooth fairy exists. I've been researching this for 5 months now. I've got proof.

Most everyone else - No it does not exist and you can't prove it. Please prove your claim.

Ahigh - Look at my charts. See there in the middle of the bar graph. That's the tooth fairy's chance of being real. See how it's much higher than the others?

Most everyone else - Your charts don't prove anything. It's just luck that you think you saw the tooth fairy all those times you say you have.

Ahigh - You are wrong and you are a liar. Why do you lie and make things up? I do not lie. Look at this screen shot of my savings account balance. It's HUGE!

Harley or one of his cronies - Yup, it's true. Not only does the tooth fairy exist, I know for a fact I can control her and make her show up more than she should.

Most everyone else - Please prove this using some sort of scientific or statistical method, otherwise you are full of it.

Ahigh - I've already proven it. Do your own work. I'm not going to do the work for you. You are wrong and a liar. Do it yourself genius!

Most everyone else. Sigh...


ZCore13

Quote: Ahigh

I earnestly await for your superior attempts to do a better job. Please take the wheel genius!

I assume this is some sort of joke, right?

The only thing to even debate is how much the variations in the manufacturing process of making the dice affect the holds.

I think we can all agree "not all that much compared to the math."

That's what I think.

As far as what I came up with, most of it was based on the Wizard's suggestions of "casino environment" and "actual evidence" rather than "adjectives."

In a very big way, the parameters you guys have problems with are the parameters required for the Wizard to become involved in the conversation.

Now he's no longer involved because of the participation of Bohemian, and then it falls into an attack on me and my methods of conducting research.

Which, effectively, is following the Wizard's suggestion.

In the end, I don't really give a crap anyway. I don't even have time to type this message, much less argue with you guys about my poor construction of research.

The Wizard gave up, and Harley (and or his followers) couldn't stay out of the debate.

So THERE YOU FREAKING GO!

THE END

Quote: Zcore13

Most everyone else - Your charts don't prove anything. It's just luck that you think you saw the tooth fairy all those times you say you have.

Ahigh - You are wrong and you are a liar. Why do you lie and make things up? I do not lie. Look at this screen shot of my savings account balance. It's HUGE!
ZCore13

Hilarious! Thats exactly how it went, good work ZCore..

Quote: Zcore13

Not only does the tooth fairy exist, I know for a fact I can control her and make her show up...

At last, something worthy of debate.

The Tooth Fairy is female?

Quote: Zcore13

Not only does the tooth fairy exist, I know for a fact I can control her and make her show up...

Quote: Calder

At last, something worthy of debate. The Tooth Fairy is female?

More importantly, is she/it inflatable?

Quote: Ahigh

Care to give out more detailed information? This sounds pretty damn vague, really. In light of your previous comments about being concerned about libel and what-not, I'm not surprised that you would say this, but I would love to see you prove that you're not just making this up!

Yes Ahigh Im making it all up. Of course I am making it up. No one libeled the casinos or the dice makers here. Its just me making a bad joke.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Tell them we want more comps, no vig on lays and more match plays, especially those that can be hedged.

About a year ago I was invited to dinner with a top casino exec -- just the two of us -- to talk about business. (I have done some marketing/consulting work for the industry.) And during the discussion I said to him "why don't you have better video poker? Those idle machines have got to be costing you money. You would still have negative expectation games and a house edge but you would attract more players and you would make more money than what you have now with all of those machines empty and having non revenue floor space."

I swear to you my comment went right over, through or around his head and he had no idea what I was talking about.