Someone please explain - even if card counting were actually illegal,
Quote: Paigowdanyes, I said that, but the assumption is "allowable" available information, and that it should indeed be used to play well. But AP players may not limit themselves to what is allowable, which then becomes a game protection issue that a casino may respond to. Different games have different protocols; tracking discards is a part of allowable and expected protocols of Bridge. Tracking discards doesn't always seem to be allowable in Blackjack.
Using restricted information is not always fine or allowable, hence the flat-betting and back offs. I also gave an example of how UTH is now dealt, as a way to prevent restricted information from getting out that may affect game protection.
As for customers being ATMs, all businesses view customers as a revenue source, and all businesses have customers. If that's evil, then ALL businesses are evil.
Wait, isn't seeing the cards on the table "allowable information" - this discussion is about card counting…so, isn't the information available to card counters the same as to all other players at the game…that being the cards on the table?
Quote: PaigowdanI think that involves physically and deliberately altering the deck, or setting up a stacked deck that is illegal.
NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:
1. “Cheat” >>>means to alter the elements of chance<<<, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or >>> frequency<<< of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.
2. The words and terms defined in chapter 463 of NRS have the meanings ascribed to them in that chapter.
(Added to NRS by 1981, 1292; A 1993, 830; 1995, 1502)
They are altering the element of chance if they know the count is good and souffle because they know you're counting or make a big bet. They are cheating but according to you the counter is just breaking the rules.
NRS 465.083 Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.
(Added to NRS by 1967, 1282; A 1969, 408; 1977, 325; 1979, 1478; 1981, 1294)
NRS 465.085 Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction.
1. It is unlawful to manufacture, sell or distribute any cards, chips, dice, game or device which is intended to be used to violate any provision of this chapter.
2. It is unlawful to mark, alter or otherwise modify any associated equipment or gaming device, as defined in chapter 463 of NRS, in a manner that:
(a) Affects the result of a wager by determining win or loss; or
>>>> (b) Alters the normal criteria of random selection, which affects the operation of a game or which determines the outcome of a game.<<<
Quote: IbeatyouracesLook, it all boils down to the fact that casinos DO NOT like winners. I don't care what anyone tells you of what they advertise. This is the hard truth. ANYONE perceived to be "not profitable" for any reason is usually down the door. This includes non-AP's who have a history of being ahead.
Many break even players have lost their comps without warning or explanation. The casinos will never tell you the truth.
Quote: aceofspadesWait, isn't seeing the cards on the table "allowable information" - this discussion is about card counting…so, isn't the information available to card counters the same as to all other players at the game…that being the cards on the table?
That is indeed true, - by itself, and taking no further steps.
But it is the introduction of a specific methodology to not only process that info to determine the composition of the remaining deck, and then to act on it by adjusting bet sizes based on that information.
Granted, it can be argued very unfair not to be able to use that info, as it is usable and expected to be used in poker, bridge, and other games. But a special case is made for casino banked Blackjack; it's nominal house performance is based on non-counting players for the game to be offered. If counting players are introduced, the business model is no longer valid, as the MIT teams blasting of the game in casinos in the 1990's had shown.
What is a casino to do?
1. Often CSMs only, or with games so weak it's not worth it to play.
2. Offer a even-money blackjack or other modified game and openly allow counting.
3. Offer the current game and deny competent counters from playing.
That's the situation.
Quote: PaigowdanThat is indeed true, - by itself, and taking no further steps.
But it is the introduction of a specific methodology to not only process that info to determine the composition of the remaining deck, and then to act on it by adjusting bet sizes based on that information.
Granted, it can be argued very unfair not to be able to use that info, as it is usable and expected to be used in poker, bridge, and other games. But a special case is made for casino banked Blackjack; it's nominal house performance is based on non-counting players for the game to be offered. If counting players are introduced, the business model is no longer valid, as the MIT teams blasting of the game in casinos in the 1990's had shown.
What is a casino to do?
1. Often CSMs only, or with games so weak it's not worth it to play.
2. Offer a even-money blackjack or other modified game and openly allow counting.
3. Offer the current game and deny competent counters from playing.
That's the situation.
Do you even believe your own statements at this point or have you fallen so far down the rabbit hole you can never go back?
Quote: aceofspadesDo you even believe your own statements at this point or have you fallen so far down the rabbit hole you can never go back?
My statements accurately match the real world of gaming. This is exactly what's going on: the Blackjack "math and profit" model of the game assumes/prefers non-counters, doesn't work well with competent counters, and the caught card counters may be backed off for business reasons.
Ace, exactly how isn't this the case? This is exactly what's going on.
Quote: aceofspadesDo you even believe your own statements at this point or have you fallen so far down the rabbit hole you can never go back?
Notice I'm not in this thread much?
Dan has been it that rabbit hole a
bunch of times over years, he
knows this will end as it always
does.
As long as they stop 86ing people who are not breaking the law they can do what they want.Quote: PaigowdanMy statements accurately match the real world of gaming. This is exactly what's going on: the Blackjack "math and profit" model of the game assumes/prefers non-counters, doesn't work well with competent counters, and the caught card counters may be backed off for business reasons.
Ace, exactly how isn't this the case? This is exactly what's going on.
If a a casino wants to introduced crappie BJ and cut their own throat, that's on them. The place down the street may be willing to take the risk in order to steal guys like AOS away. Take the good with the bad.
As for other jurisdictions, like Vegas, they can use Gestapo tactics. Casino are private property and they can use no trespassing law against you, if you are a card counter.
Casino can use CSM but there are some resistance, especially from high rollers.
Recap.
1. Card counting is not illegal, but casinos do not want you to use your brains to get an advantage on them.
2. There are some who believe that it should be, and believe the casinos are in the right to kick card counters out.
3. AC casino cannot kick card counters out.
4. Casinos do not want to exclusively use CSM because they know there will be a casino that will not use this. This is will BJ players will flock to.
Quote: IbeatyouracesUston, not Houston.
Thanks, I will change it.
Quote: AceCrAAckersCounting cards is not illegal! No one has been arrested, prosecuted for it, and fined or imprisoned for it. In AC, you can openly count cards and they cannot kick you out for this. Thank Ken Uston for this. Using your brain is not illegal!
I, for one don't celebrate Uston for this move. Regardless for what his intent may have been (and that is open for debate), the end result was that his actions resulted in inferior games and conditions in AC for the rest of us, for decades.
Also, the can not kick you out clause is irrelevant. As I posted last night, when you wear out your welcome in AC, as I did 6 years ago, they have other methods, preferential shuffling, bet restricting which was the one employed over and over against myself, and cutting the deck in half, otherwise known as offering 50% penetration, making the game unplayable. These countermeasures only differ in name from backing off and barring players. The end result is the same.
I do have to say that I completely agree with Axelwolf. Preferential shuffling has to be illegal as the law is written. Shuffling away positive counts in the middle of a game is altering the odds of that game. I guess it's just a matter that no one has gone to the trouble and expense to challenge this in court, at the multiple levels that would be necessary to get a just ruling. There is no advantage on doing so, as the casino would just move to the next countermeasure and probably use that as an excuse to offer worse games and conditions along the way.
I would say the exact same thing for the bet restrictions. It can't be legal to restrict one player to a $5 minimums and $50 maximums, while the rest of the table is $25 minimum and $1000 maximums, as happened time and time again to me. That has to be some sort of discrimination against a particular player. It's just that no one has bothered to fight it.
Quote: kewlj
I would say the exact same thing for the bet restrictions. It can't be legal to restrict one player to a $5 minimums and $50 maximums, while the rest of the table is $25 minimum and $1000 maximums, as happened time and time again to me. That has to be some sort of discrimination against a particular player. It's just that no one has bothered to fight it.
It is discriminatory, but that may be argued as discrimination for business and on-premises game-play reasons, and not ethnic or racial reasons.
Quote: PaigowdanIt is discriminatory, but that may be argued as discrimination for business and on-premises game-play reasons, and not ethnic or racial reasons.
I am not a lawyer (nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night) But I can't imagine that would hold up in court.
I should mention that the bet restriction method used on me (special table card $5 minimum, $50 maximum) only came about in the last 10 years or so. Before that players were flat bet, meaning had to place the same wager round after round. It was the NJ casino commission that recognized that this practice (flat bet) would not hold up in court (before a case ever got there) and changed the rule to casinos had to offer a minimum of 1-10 spread but could do so @ $5-$50 amounts, even at tables that were much higher limits.
Quote: kewlj
I, for one don't celebrate Uston for this move.
Cat Hulbert was on his team and claims
he was a hack. He could never keep the
count, was always asking what it was.
He refused to play covertly and was always
in the casinos face with his moves, trying
to get kicked out. He also thought women
were too dumb to count cards, and she
turned out to be the best player on his
team.
I just laughed. It made the dealer uncomfortable as hell. I colored up and told the other player he should go. I saw the other player the next night and he came up to me bitching about his terrible run the previous night. Poor guy was pick pocketed and didn't even know it.
I've watched a dealer rob a blind man. No one will ever convince me that casinos deserve anything other than disrespect.
Quote: MaxPenI know of a single deck game that is dealt by the same two primary dealers that is preferential shuffled. They both count and shuffle whenever the deck goes positive +2. Even if only one hand was dealt to 2 players. They will go 4 hands if the deck is negative. I called one out on it by asking a couple of sideways questions. His first response was, "I'm not counting. I have to make sure I have enough cards without running out at all times."
I just laughed. It made the dealer uncomfortable as hell. I colored up and told the other player he should go. I saw the other player the next night and he came up to me bitching about his terrible run the previous night. Poor guy was pick pocketed and didn't even know it.
I've watched a dealer rob a blind man. No one will ever convince me that casinos deserve anything other than disrespect.
El Cortez will deal an extra round if the count is negative. Never saw an early shuffle due to a high count though. I'm sure its happened though.
Quote: IbeatyouracesEl Cortez will deal an extra round if the count is negative. Never saw an early shuffle due to a high count though. I'm sure its happened though.
Some of this occurs naturally of course. If the count is positive, it means small cards have come out and it takes more cards to complete a round. If a count negative, more 10's and Aces have hit the felt s rounds are completed with fewer cards. So it will naturally take an extra round at negative counts to reach the same shuffle point than it would to reach that same point in positive or even neutral counts.
But yes, it seems the borderline cases (and even some not so borderline cases) go the way of an extra round in negative counts and a slightly earlier shuffle in positive rounds. I sure that decision is just coincidence though. <- LOL
Quote: kewljSome of this occurs naturally of course. If the count is positive, it means small cards have come out and it takes more cards to complete a round. If a count negative, more 10's and Aces have hit the felt s rounds are completed with fewer cards. So it will naturally take an extra round at positive counts to reach the same shuffle point than it would to reach that same point in negative or even neutral counts.
But yes, it seems the borderline cases (and even some not so borderline cases) go the way of an extra round in negative counts and a slightly earlier shuffle in positive rounds. I sure that decision is just coincidence though. <- LOL
I'm certain that in some cases, it's a coincidence. Not when I observed it!
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm certain that in some cases, it's a coincidence. Not when I observed it!
I have one small local store that my partner and I play a CSM for about 45 minutes a week. Our monthly mailers, contain weekly free bets and match plays that turn the play +EV, which is why we give them just enough play to keep that coming.
Like many CSM, they let the cards build up some before placing them back into the machine, which provides a couple rounds without those cards in play. I can't help but notice that when small cards come out and the count is positive, that 'build-up' is re-entered into the CSM at about the half deck mark, but when 10's and aces have come out, the 'build-up' (I forget the name for this) is allowed to grow to about a deck.
I mean it's a CSM. They already have a set advantage, but like most things the casino wants to squeeze every extra drop they can. :/
Quote: kewljI have one small local store that my partner and I play a CSM for about 45 minutes a week. Our monthly mailers, containing weekly free bets and match plays thast turn the play +EV, which is why we give them just enough play to keep that coming.
Like many CSM, they let the cards build up some before placing them back into the machine, which provides a couple rounds without those cards in play. I can't help but notice that when small cards come out and the count is positive, that 'build-up' is re-entered into the CSM at about the half deck mark, but when 10's and aces have come out, the 'build-up' (I forget the name for this) is allowed to grow to about a deck.
I mean it's a CSM. They already have a set advantage, but like most things the casino wants to squeeze every extra drop they can. :/
I had a relief dealer deal all six decks out of the machine! Unfortunately nobody, even me noticed. He had just come of a shoe game and wasn't paying attention and didn't realize it was a csm.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI had a relief dealer deal all six decks out of the machine! Unfortunately nobody, even me noticed. He had just come of a shoe game and wasn't paying attention and didn't realize it was a csm.
Sounds like a situation where you should notice or not notice depending on the count. :)
Quote: kewljSounds like a situation where you should notice or not notice depending on the count. :)
Since it was the csm, I wasn't counting. I think I've counted once in the last two years.
Quote: Paigowdan
If a house lets you count all you want with their blessing, then fine.
Quote: Paigowdan
If a casino decides your play is fine with them, then they won't back you off, and that is very fine.
According to this logic, if no back-off occurs than the casino is ok with the players action. If the casino is ok with it, the player is playing the game within the rules set forth by the casino. To try and say rules are being broken can only be accounted for with cogitative dissonance.
Quote: PaigowdanI believe the cognitive dissonance is within the pro-counting camp, where card counting cannot be reconciled as a righteous and justifiable thing while there exists the risk of getting flat-betted or backed of
It is justified because if there is no back-off it means the casino allows it within their rules. Once a back-off occurs, the player knows to stop or risk being trespassed. Once 86d, the player either never goes back to that casino or does so knowing full well they can be arrested. Fortunately, for the vast majority of card counters, those things are rare because the players rarely push the boundaries that far and because the casino is usually completely fine with them
Quote: TomG
Once a back-off occurs, the player knows to stop or risk being trespassed. Once 86d, the player either never goes back to that casino or does so knowing full well they can be arrested.
Legally, this is only partly true, at least here in Nevada. According to Bob Nersesian (of godlike status to card counters), the Nevada law states that a patron must be given the opportunity to leave each and every time before arrest, even if the trespass act had been previously read. In other words they have to remind you that you have previously been trespassed, are not welcome and allow you the opportunity to leave before an arrest can be made. You pretty much have to not leave to be arrested for trespassing. The casinos are well aware of this, which is why there really are very few trespassing arrests, recently in Vegas. It's more just a threat the casinos use figuring most patrons don't really know the law. Basically an intimidation tactic.
Now to be clear, I am talking specifically in regards to card counting. If you have engaged in other things, criminally then yes, they can immediately take action based on a previous trespassing. This is why you have to be careful, the casinos will make up things, drunk and disorderly, creating a disturbance, ect, to justify arresting you on a previous trespassing.
My "god-like status" comment is not meant to be sarcastic. Bob is our hero, fighting for our rights and often times there isn't a lot of money in some of the cases that he takes and wins on behalf of card counters and AP's. Equally as important to having him there fighting if we need him, is the educational value he provides. He has enlightened many of us to the actual laws, which can enable us to stand up for our rights, when the casinos attempt to push us around. Thank you Mr N. :)
Here are my 3 musts for a Las Vegas card counter:
1.) Proper bankroll to withstand the extreme swings involved.
2.) Mentality or mental makeup to withstand the swings involved.
3.) Always have Bob Nersesian on speed dial. (Buy him a meal once in a while. This will insure he will take that call) :)
Quote: TomGAccording to this logic, if no back-off occurs than the casino is ok with the players action. If the casino is ok with it, the player is playing the game within the rules set forth by the casino. To try and say rules are being broken can only be accounted for with cogitative dissonance.
What..??
Look, it's really simple. If the casino deems that your play is fine, you're good, and you may continue to play as you see fit. If they find your play to be problematic or unacceptable, you may get blocked from playing. We get that, and there's no cognitive dissonance in that.
Quote: TomGIt is justified because if there is no back-off it means the casino allows it within their rules. Once a back-off occurs, the player knows to stop or risk being trespassed. Once 86d, the player either never goes back to that casino or does so knowing full well they can be arrested. Fortunately, for the vast majority of card counters, those things are rare because the players rarely push the boundaries that far and because the casino is usually completely fine with them
Yes. Again, the casino makes that call. And your point is?....
Quote: kewlj...3.) Always have Bob Nersesian [an attorney] on speed dial. (Buy him a meal once in a while. This will insure he will take that call) :)
For when cover plays or disguises fail, I assume.
I find that the need to keep an attorney on speed dial in order to play Blackjack as a card counter says quite a bit about the nature of card counting, if it so above board and proper and the thing to do and all that. For most players, an attorney on speed dial isn't needed to play at a casino or a card room.
It was about 10 years ago during one of my early trips to Vegas, prior to relocating here. I was in my early 20's but looked more like a high school freshman. I was an easy target for intimidation. And the people at one of the Evil Empire joints did just that. After backing me away from the table, a large bald man and a couple security guys told me I needed to accompany them to the "office" to sign some paperwork. As we left the casino floor, and were parading down a hallway, I informed them that I wanted to call my attorney Bob Nersesian immediately. At the time I did not know Mr Nersesian.
The parade immediately came to a halt and the large bald man, turned glared at me for what seemed an eternity and finally said, "Go on, Get out of here".
I don't think I ever ran as fast in my life. I took a most indirect route to my hotel room (because I required a change of underwear), where I holed up for the rest of the day. :/
Quote: Paigowdan
For when cover plays or disguises fail, I assume.
I find that the need to keep an attorney on speed dial in order to play Blackjack as a card counter says quite a bit about the nature of card counting, if it so above board and proper and the thing to do and all that. For most players, an attorney on speed dial isn't needed to play at a casino or a card room.
Not at all Dan, it is needed because the casino industry abuses it's authority in this matter time and time again.
Still, it doesn't sound like quite the life.
Quote: kewljNot at all Dan, it is needed because the casino industry abuses it's authority in this matter time and time again.
Not for many, but for some, yes, I would assume. Most I've seen at houses I work at were either requests to "go play craps" or "go home."
I don't believe card counters should be handled by Nicky Santoro-like characters.
Quote: PaigowdanQuote: kewlj...3.) Always have Bob Nersesian [an attorney] on speed dial. (Buy him a meal once in a while. This will insure he will take that call) :)
For when cover plays or disguises fail, I assume.
I find that the need to keep an attorney on speed dial in order to play Blackjack as a card counter says quite a bit about the nature of card counting, if it so above board and proper and the thing to do and all that. For most players, an attorney on speed dial isn't needed to play at a casino or a card room.
It should tell you that we're not the ones breaking the law. It's YOUR industry that is. Now let's see what's "above board and proper."
Quote: IbeatyouracesIt should tell you that we're not the ones breaking the law. It's YOUR industry that is. Now let's see what's "above board and proper."
Really? Saying to a player "Go play craps," or "all bet sizes must match the first bet size" or "Please leave" are against the law? I don't think so.
Now certainly, if some GoodFellas-like crap happens, brass knuckles and all that, then yeah, laws clearly may be broken, then do get Bob Nersesian, and get some justice.
Quote: kewljSome of this occurs naturally of course. If the count is positive, it means small cards have come out and it takes more cards to complete a round. If a count negative, more 10's and Aces have hit the felt s rounds are completed with fewer cards. So it will naturally take an extra round at negative counts to reach the same shuffle point than it would to reach that same point in positive or even neutral counts.
I'm Sure you know this, but I'll point it out for others. Don't play single deck where they deal to a fixed point in the deck or use a cut card. That is preferential shuffling by procedure and changes the house edge a good share, whether they're conscious of it or not. Counting single deck really is a different game and requires a bit of different skill set. You must count the number of rounds and make sure it is consistent with number of players to make sure you're not being preferential shuffled on. Most common is number of players + rounds dealt equals six. In this case you're going to get deeper into the deck playing two hands if heads up.
I Don't play often at el co, but when I do I don't play the single deck due to the notch cut in shoe. Any dealer who goes by that is preferential shuffling by procedure. Cut card effect hurts at double deck too, but not really comparable to single deck, it's a fundamentally different game.
Quote: AxelWolfNRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:
1. “Cheat” >>>means to alter the elements of chance<<<, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or >>> frequency<<< of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.
2. The words and terms defined in chapter 463 of NRS have the meanings ascribed to them in that chapter.
(Added to NRS by 1981, 1292; A 1993, 830; 1995, 1502)
They are altering the element of chance if they know the count is good and souffle because they know you're counting or make a big bet. They are cheating but according to you the counter is just breaking the rules.
A few comments:
1) Has preferential shuffling ever been litigated in Nevada at all?
2) Has preferential shuffling ever been litigated in Nevada by a flat-betting non-counter who was at the same table as a card-counter? That would be the best test case, I'd think.
3) It is mathematically demonstrable that a standard shoe game with a cut card has a slightly different edge than a CSM game using the same number of decks. The payouts in blackjack never change so this effect is necessarily related to a slightly different frequency of winning between a hand-shuffled shoe and a CSM. Why does the use of a CSM not violate this statute?
Quote: PaigowdanSorry to hear about that, kewlj. I guess Bob's name is a name that strikes fear into the hearts of some casino guys
Still, it doesn't sound like quite the life.
Thank you PGDan. It's good to have someone on your side in these situations, like Mr N.
I am not sure about the "quite the life" comment. My life as a low to mid-level car counting AP is not exciting, MIT movie, running away from security everyday kind of stuff. Nor are there any high priced hotel suites and high roller treatment. I make a modest, I guess middle-class living and live a modest suburban life.
But it is a unique type of career and there has been a learning process involved that goes to far more than the mechanics of card counting. My approach is to learn the tolerance and comfort levels of the different places I play, and avoid these types of situations. There was some trial and error involved in that learning process, which is why I have some limited experience and stories to tell, but I prefer to avoid these situations. I like to learn just what is tolerated and play within these limits. For the most part I am welcome at almost all of the places in my regular rotation.
Sometimes there is even a look of recognition from different casino personnel. I am not saying I get a friendly wave, but they recognize me. They know I will be playing within their comfort level and my stay will be short. I like to think they choose the path of least resistance (which is human nature) and do nothing and know I will be out of there hair momentarily, with them having done nothing. It's sort of a co-existence. Occasionally you get the gung-ho type (usually younger floor person), but that too is easily recognizable.
Quote: kewljNot at all Dan, it is needed because the casino industry abuses it's authority in this matter time and time again.
Quote: IbeatyouracesIt should tell you that we're not the ones breaking the law. It's YOUR industry that is. Now let's see what's "above board and proper."
If this is how you guys feel about the gaming industry, then why in the world you even consider stepping into a casino or a card room?
If I felt that way about my work or play environment, I'd think I'm in the wrong line of work or play. Not meaning to sound like EvenBob with a question, what is so compelling about it? (Kewlj answered....)
Quote: kewljThank you PGDan. It's good to have someone on your side in these situations, like Mr N.
I am not sure about the "quite the life" comment. My life as a low to mid-level car counting AP is not exciting, MIT movie, running away from security everyday kind of stuff. Nor are there any high priced hotel suites and high roller treatment. I make a modest, I guess middle-class living and live a modest suburban life.
But it is a unique type of career and there has been a learning process involved that goes to far more than the mechanics of card counting. My approach is to learn the tolerance and comfort levels of the different places I play, and avoid these types of situations. There was some trial and error involved in that learning process, which is why I have some limited experience and stories to tell, but I prefer to avoid these situations. I like to learn just what is tolerated and play within these limits. For the most part I am welcome at almost all of the places in my regular rotation.
Sometimes there is even a look of recognition from different casino personnel. I am not saying I get a friendly wave, but they recognize me. They know I will be playing within their comfort level and my stay will be short. I like to think they choose the path of least resistance (which is human nature) and do nothing and know I will be out of there hair momentarily, with them having done nothing. It's sort of a co-existence. Occasionally you get the gung-ho type (usually younger floor person), but that too is easily recognizable.
Very Good description, really.
Quote: PaigowdanVery Good description, really.
sorry. Quoted wrong post and now can't delete. :/
Quote: MathExtremistA few comments:
1) Has preferential shuffling ever been litigated in Nevada at all?
2) Has preferential shuffling ever been litigated in Nevada by a flat-betting non-counter who was at the same table as a card-counter? That would be the best test case, I'd think.
3) It is mathematically demonstrable that a standard shoe game with a cut card has a slightly different edge than a CSM game using the same number of decks. The payouts in blackjack never change so this effect is necessarily related to a slightly different frequency of winning between a hand-shuffled shoe and a CSM. Why does the use of a CSM not violate this statute?
Follow-up after some research -- this has already been litigated in NJ:
Doug Grant Inc v Greate Bay Casino
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-3rd-circuit/1178797.html
citing Campione v Adamar:
"The district court believed that the primary purported predicate act on which appellants relied is the shuffling of cards when the count is favorable to the players.4 The complaint alleges that use of the “shuffling-at-will” countermeasure constitutes a predicate act of racketeering because it violates the criminal casino “cheating” statute, N.J.Stat.Ann. § 5:12-115. The trial court in Campione rejected this precise claim. Campione, 643 A.2d at 51 (“labeling of the shuffling at will as ‘cheating’ is specious”). Moreover, despite appellants' protestations, the regulation itself makes clear that a casino at its discretion may shuffle at the conclusion of any round of play"
Quote: PaigowdanNot meaning to sound like EvenBob with a question, what is so compelling about it? (Kewlj answered....)
Didn't really mean to answer as that post was more of a glimpse into my life. I would like to answer the "what is so compelling thing" a little more if I could.
I love the game of blackjack. (That's not to say there aren't days that I pull my hair out). I love playing blackjack for a living. I am proud to do so with the elementary method of card counting that most players have left behind. I guess I consider myself a throwback. Some in the blackjack community have used the term 'dinosaur' to describe me. I take no offense in that and contrarily wear that with pride. I have dabbled in some more advantageous techniques involving blackjack like hole-carding and shuffle tracking, but they are not for me. Again, I like making a living from the technique of card counting. I don't feel it's dishonest as you do. I play the game within the rules using nothing but my brain.
Now, while I do love the game of blackjack an making a living playing it, I do dislike some of the things associated with the casino environment and some of the predatory activities that the casino industry engages in. But not a whole lot I can do about that. Live blackjack is played in a casino. :/
There are times when I feel particularly annoyed at the casino industry and their predatory actions that I take a little extra pride in that I am 'beating' them. But really that is just irrelevant. I mean I am not Robin Hood taking from the rich and giving to the poor. My taking is about my profit. I am taking from the rich and giving to me. I am quite comfortable with that. :)
I am not trying to get rich. I am just trying to make a comfortable living. Initially I had a 10 year plan to make a million dollars. I was naïve and didn't understand how things worked. I am now in year 12 and only two-thirds of the way there. The first 5 years were far different and scarcer than I anticipated. It took five years to even get to a cumulated 6 figure win. :/ But I am now in a real good place..averaging upper 5 figures to just touching 6 figures on a good year. I will get there. :)
Quote: MathExtremistFollow-up after some research -- this has already been litigated in NJ:
Doug Grant Inc v Greate Bay Casino
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-3rd-circuit/1178797.html
citing Campione v Adamar:
"The district court believed that the primary purported predicate act on which appellants relied is the shuffling of cards when the count is favorable to the players.4 The complaint alleges that use of the “shuffling-at-will” countermeasure constitutes a predicate act of racketeering because it violates the criminal casino “cheating” statute, N.J.Stat.Ann. § 5:12-115. The trial court in Campione rejected this precise claim. Campione, 643 A.2d at 51 (“labeling of the shuffling at will as ‘cheating’ is specious”). Moreover, despite appellants' protestations, the regulation itself makes clear that a casino at its discretion may shuffle at the conclusion of any round of play"
This is the type of thing where you would need to appeal several times to get to a high enough court that might take a serious look at it and probably no one would be willing to do that. The district court level....no....that ruling was done before the case even started.
It's really just common sense (which is why it would likely get bogged down...lol) In a game that has advantageous situations and disadvantageous situations, how can you shuffle away the advantageous situations and play out the neutral and disadvantageous situations and NOT have effected the odds or randomness of the game??
The fact that there was or is a 'regulation' allowing this has no standing. Regulations are just procedures set by a state or commission. They are not laws. When they violate the law they need to be challenged.
Quote: kewljDidn't really mean to answer as that post was more of a glimpse into my life. I would like to answer the "what is so compelling thing" a little more if I could.
I love the game of blackjack. (That's not to say there aren't days that I pull my hair out). I love playing blackjack for a living. I am proud to do so with the elementary method of card counting that most players have left behind. I guess I consider myself a throwback. Some in the blackjack community have used the term 'dinosaur' to describe me. I take no offense in that and contrarily wear that with pride. I have dabbled in some more advantageous techniques involving blackjack like hole-carding and shuffle tracking, but they are not for me. Again, I like making a living from the technique of card counting. I don't feel it's dishonest as you do. I play the game within the rules using nothing but my brain.
Now, while I do love the game of blackjack an making a living playing it, I do dislike some of the things associated with the casino environment and some of the predatory activities that the casino industry engages in. But not a whole lot I can do about that. Live blackjack is played in a casino. :/
There are times when I feel particularly annoyed at the casino industry and their predatory actions that I take a little extra pride in that I am 'beating' them. But really that is just irrelevant. I mean I am not Robin Hood taking from the rich and giving to the poor. My taking is about my profit. I am taking from the rich and giving to me. I am quite comfortable with that. :)
I am not trying to get rich. I am just trying to make a comfortable living. Initially I had a 10 year plan to make a million dollars. I was naïve and didn't understand how things worked. I am now in year 12 and only two-thirds of the way there. (The first 5 years were far different and scarcer than I anticipated). But I am now in a real good place..averaging upper 5 figures to just touching 6 figures on a good year. I will get there. :)
Interesting. Slow and steady wins the race. I will say that in the human condition, we are all predatory to some degree in business, (Lions and Gazelles and all that); I ask that it be considered that AP play is also predatory in nature with a view of casino operators not as businesses supplying gambling services, but as enemies to be crushed and defeated. Dealers, they are drones.
“Permitting a casino to restrict its patrons only to those customers who lack the skill and ability to play such games well intrudes upon principles of fair and equal competition and provides unfair financial advantages and rewards to casino operators,”
---------------------
In short, the casinos choose to ban, harass, intimidate, and identify intelligent players via their lowly thugs... the gaming officers. They choose to only accommodate and cater to the blissfully ignorant.
Recently, a gaming officer in the state of Indiana said that advantage play in the state of Indiana was against the law! No joke. They attempt to intimidate and exploit the general public's ignorance on behalf of the casinos!
It if often said that taxes on cigarettes and gambling are a tax on the poor and ignorant. The experts aren't wrong.
