Backcounting Advice?

Hello. First-timer here. Following my first backcounting experience, I’m left with a few thoughts and some questions.

All along I felt uncomfortable about the whole thing. It just seemed so obvious what I was doing. Is this a normal reaction? Am I being paranoid?

What is the ideal backcounting situation? What table min should I seek? $25, $50, $100? What bankroll should I have? What (if any) bet size is too large? How many players? Should I backcount in a crowded casino only? What type of game? H17 doesn’t bother me, but I would like to surrender my hand if necessary. Anything else?

I have an upcoming trip. My plan is to backcount, play, and move to the next casino. Repeat.

1BB, kewlj, LonesomeGambler: I have spent the past couple days reading every post authored by each of you. It was time well spent. Thank you!

Some people prefer to play off the top and wong out when needed (that's what I always did), but if you have patience and the right conditions, playing positive-only counts is far better. Crowded casinos are generally best, as you'll blend in better, but overcrowding makes it less likely that you'll be able to get a spot when the counts jumps up. Backcounting adjacent tables simultaneously increases the rounds per hour observed, as well as the frequency of positive counts to jump into; it also helps when you appear to be watching one table and then jump into another. Be aware of what you look like to surveillance—they have a term for people who circle the pit over and over again: buzzards.

Have cheques in hand, play unrated (you may be leaving soon), don't hawk the game too hard, rinse, repeat. Table mins should have no bearing on your backcounting approach, unless you plan on placing bets below $100 or so. If I were backcounting now, I would find any TC3+ and just flat bet a few hands of $x until the count dropped back down to TC2, but that really depends on your bankroll. Generally, you should have a max bet out at TC5 (or 4, depending on your approach and risk tolerance), so there should be little (or no) variation between what you wong in with and what you bet throughout the rest of the rounds you play. The caveat is that yes, this is somewhat obvious to even moderately sharp casino personnel. Bankroll and risk considerations aside, what you bet will likely be determined more by casino conditions (heat, tolerance, etc.) than by what the count calls for.

Uh... question.

I got one back. Its usually sore. Counting it is not something I often do, but if I were to count it, I would always reach the sum of ONE.

So methinks youze is talking about something else.... what?

@FleaStiff:

(Non-counter talking)

Back counting means surreptitiously counting the deck while not playing. The idea is you hang out in the pit watching the cards at one or more tables, then you sit down and play once the count is already positive. The benefit is you're not exposed to the house edge, and you don't have to worry about raising your bets and throwing "counter" flags, since you enter with your 'big bet.' The drawbacks are the very act of entering games mid-shoe is suspicious and you may not be able to find a seat when you need one.

Quote: sunrise089

Back counting means surreptitiously counting the deck while not playing. The idea is you hang out in the pit watching the cards at one or more tables, then you sit down and play once the count is already positive. The benefit is you're not exposed to the house edge, and you don't have to worry about raising your bets and throwing "counter" flags, since you enter with your 'big bet.' The drawbacks are the very act of entering games mid-shoe is suspicious and you may not be able to find a seat when you need one.

Another drawback can be a very low max bet on mid-shoe entries. I remember at O'Shea's, where EVERY TABLE was 6:5 on a six-deck game (possibly even 8-decks), they had signs saying mid-shoe entries (after the first hand was dealt) had a max bet of $100. ON A 6:5 GAME!!!

Talk about paranoid...

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With no mid shoe entry being widely enforced, this back counting seems unlikely to be useful.

Its true one can stand and chat (and surreptitiously count) thus avoiding the House Edge, but its better to hire some bimbo to play against the house edge at low minimum bets and issue signals.

Whats the use of counting cards and then entering mid shoe but being watched ultra carefully right away? If you try to increase your bets you will be noticed in that situation right away.

Quote: FleaStiff

Whats the use of counting cards and then entering mid shoe but being watched ultra carefully right away? If you try to increase your bets you will be noticed in that situation right away.

It may very well not be worth it relative to normal counting, but the advantage is you can hit hard and fast. Sit down, bet as much as allowed, get out after just a few hands. In heat terms you could conceivably be better than a person who plays with a big spread and gets watched for a long time, and you're certainly better off in expectation per bet since you're never exposing money to a bad count.

Of course you're right though, that's all moot if the mid-shoe entry rules are strict.

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I'm sure this won't help anybody. Where I normally play, mid-shoe entry is common. I once witnessed an individual who had been sitting playing at the table for a long period of time, become disgusted when someone entered mid-shoe. Granted, the shoe was doing well for everyone at this point. Anyway, the individual asked the interrupter to wait until the end of the shoe, but the interrupter refused and started playing. Because of that, the individual declined to play any hands until the next shoe.

It occurred to me that a card counter could use this to their advantage. CC is at table, when count gets bad. CC signals confederate, who comes in to play a hand. CC announces that the new player is "messing up the order of the cards" and sits out. Confederate plays one hand, then leaves. CC announces that even though confederate has left, the cards are all out of order and refuses to play. If the count should turn positive, CC jumps back in. By that time, confederate has been "gone long enough for the cards to get back in order." If the count never gets good, CC just waits until next shoe.

I'm sure there are ways that a back counter could use this as well.

Quote: FleaStiff

With no mid shoe entry being widely enforced, this back counting seems unlikely to be useful.

No MSE isn't really that common. I know it is ubiquitous in AC since they can't bar you, but in Vegas it is usually limited to single and double deck. Backcounting and Wonging in are more commonly practiced in shoe games.

To the OP, if you don't have Blackjack Attack, I would highly recommend it. The very first chapter is "Backcounting the Shoe game." It's an old article (published in 1984 originally, but with updates since) with tons of advice that is still salient today. Before I read that article, I always envisioned backcounting as an incredibly obvious tactic, I mean you're just standing there staring at the cards! It's much better if you can make it look like you're watching something else, glance at the layout, and count down every card that is showing just before they sweep the table. I know, this is much more difficult than watching the game play out, but it's much less obvious. I'm still terrible at it, although I haven't been to the casinos much since I went to the eye doctor and got glasses. My (somewhat) poor vision was making it even harder.