Utilizing Dealer Mistakes for Positive Expectation

Well, this is a big stretch, but seeing as how it happened to me several times, I figured I would ask.

The situation is thus, I'm playing craps, and rolling the dice. On comeout rolls, I leave any Come Odds working. At one point, I had all the points covered. Thus, I stood a big chance of losing big on the comeout roll, should I roll a 7. But, any point number rolled meant winning. I believe that the Wizard also suggests leaving the odds working on comeout rolls (even though his craps simulator doesn't allow this. grrr. :) just kidding).

In addition to playing the Pass Line + Odds, and Come Line + odds, I'm playing $1 on the Pass Line for the dealers, with odds for them as well. I also play my favorite hard 10 as a sucker bet, with $5 on that bet, and $1 on that bet for the dealers.

So, several occasions, even though I specifically let the dealer know that I want my odds working, and the dealer even puts the little "on" button on my odds, when I roll the 7, my bets do not disappear. In one circumstance, the bets simply remained on the point numbers. In most of the circumstances, the dealer palmed the "on" button (my take on things), pulled off the odds, gave them to me, and took away all the come bets, as a normally rolled 7 without odds working would have done.

It's possible that these "mistakes" were made because I was the only person at the table making bets for the dealers, even though my bets were not all that large, at least in my opinion.

One time, when a dealer did not take away my bets, and the stick mentioned it to him, the dealer started taking away my bets, and mumbled to the stick that "this guy is the only one tipping us." Later, when it happened again, the stick didn't say anything, and the dealer did not take away my bets.

I've noticed that this doesn't happen AT ALL if the box man is particularly paying attention to what is going on. However, since the play of leaving your odds bets working is a rare one, I think it's easy for the dealer to "mistakenly" not handle the situation as if your odds bet were working.

In another thread, someone talked about making bets that the dealers frequently make mistakes on, as a way of possibly getting a better payout and/or not getting a loss when you should.

I've also noticed that playing at casinos where dealers are newer results in: slower play, but with more player-favored mistakes, especially on more complicated payouts. In this particular circumstance, it seems like the mistakes are offset by the slowness of the game.

My question is, is it possible to utilize these "mistakes", whether intentional or not, to turn the game into a player advantage, or to significantly reduce the house advantage? And, if the situation is that some intentional "mistakes" are being made simply because the player is tipping, does the cost of tipping outweigh the advantage you might receive?

Mistakes and favors happen by dealers. But, that being said, I do not think a dealer would go to great effort to give money to a player. On the other hand, my last time in Vegas, I counted no less then 7 mistakes against me by the dealers in 2 hours. I do play the don't, so sometimes a dealer not paying attention will grab my bet as a 7 out instead of paying me. This happen last week at a different casino because the dealer was watching a woman with huge breast leaning over the table and he forgot to pay me at a 7 out. The only mistake I have utilized is when a dealer "forget" to pick up my loss and give me an all day bet. Yes, this can be associated with tipping which I do.

its difficult to calculate the exact value of dealer mistakes. i just do all i can to encourage them. i know it cuts down on the house edge but dont know to what degree. it might make the game slightly in my favor, i just tend to think of it as making the game nuetral so i can give the illusion of action while neither side is winning. but i still accrue comps and continue to get mailers with coupons i can profit off of.

I have a number of issues with this topic.

"Utilizing Dealer Mistakes for Positive Expectation" sounds like you're trying to come up with a formula to calculate the value of those mistakes. Can't be done.

If you are trying to calculate them, does the tip intended to induce mistakes figure into the calculation? I hope not, since good ettiquite dictates that you should tip anyway.

Mistakes, even the intentional type you describe, are very much random and can be influenced by the mood of the dealers, and how closely the box and/or floorperson is watching.

There should be no 'Positive Expectation' because you should never expect to get those mistakes.

Last, but not least, is the ethics question. I understand that when it comes to casinos and dealer mistakes in a player's favor, ethics tend to take a beating, and can't really blame you, but I thought I'd bring it up.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I understand that when it comes to casinos and dealer mistakes in a player's favor, ethics tend to take a beating, and can't really blame you, but I thought I'd bring it up.

hmmmm, yes, I think the best policy is to give up that kind of thinking.

I notice no one has ever mentioned outright cheating ideas, so that's good. I came across one that is fairly easy to get away with at a Craps Table, dealer sympathy possibly helping, and that no one has ever mentioned *anywhere* that I have seen. I find I have to force myself to 'just say no' to the idea of trying to pull it off. Something I did by accident once, and the temptation is there, so I am no Saint.

Ethics, karma, positive thinking. Sure I like a free money or a give me, but good effort towards a dealer will get you a lot more good will from a dealer in the form of being helped and a real effort to make sure you are covered on your bets. Plus, a new dealer will make mistakes and get his lunch handed to him by a pit boss. I have gotten more positive results from a dealer and pit boss when I mention or return a mistake. Pit boss's will usualy up your comps immediatedly or a little later give you a buffett. Dealers talked amoung themselves during rotataion. They know the Georges and the jerks. Also they know who helps and who is rude. There is nothing better then coming back from the bathroom to a very crowed table and the dealers have your spot waiting for you so you don't have to fight your way in. I like it. I firmly believe good deeds do pay off.

I should have stated that this is all hypothetical.

Well, I guess my first thought is that ethics would come to mind in situations where the dealer makes a mistake. I don't mind pointing out the mistake to help the dealer out. However, in situations where the dealer is intentionally doing the wrong thing, in my favor, is it still a question of ethics to insist that the dealer not do so? I have to admit that when the dealer didn't take down all my bets on the comeout of 7, that I was in no mood to point it out to him that he should be taking down my come bets and all odds on all 6 of the points. That's a lot of chips going away for me.

The thing is, the dealer was doing it intentionally for me. He knew what he was doing, and I knew he was doing it for me. That doesn't make it right. In a college accounting class, the professor was discussing certain illegal things that could get you fired and/or in worse trouble. One of the students in the class asked what about if your boss was doing the things and asking you to go along, or one of your co-workers was involved. The professor's answer was, well, you just found someone to share a jail cell with.

If the dealer was doing it every time, then I could see this as a real issue as the dealer would eventually get caught, plus the casino would assume that you are in cahoots with the dealer. On the other hand, if the dealer is only doing it, say 15% of the time, my question still remains, does it become any sort of significant advantage? And if so, is that advantage offset by the tipping?

I tip no matter what the dealers are doing. My thought on this topic was simply, if you are tipping, and the dealers are doing things intentionally that result in your favor (perhaps the word mistake was wrong), do those things result in a better player advantage, and is it enough of an advantage to really offset the cost of the tip in the first place.

Considering going out to dinner, and receiving your bill at the end of your dinner, and the dessert you ordered is not on the bill. Clearly, not saying anything would be ethically/morally wrong. So, you mention to the waiter that your dessert is not on the bill and you need to pay for it. But, let's say you do mention it to the waiter, and he/she says, well you come in here all the time and leave such good tips, I'm not charging you for your dessert this time. Do you insist on paying for the dessert? And if you decide not to, is it still ethically wrong? [This is a circumstance that happens to me at a place I eat at regularly here in Phoenix. Probably about once a month, the waitress gives me my dessert for free. One time, the waitress tried to give me my whole meal for free, but I refused. I know that she is paying for it out of her tips, and I just didn't want her to do that. And yes, it's the waitress offering the free dessert, not the management, owner, or anybody else.] So, I receive a free dessert once a month, but since I tend to tip on the high side (around 50%), I've probably paid well more than that over the course of the month. If I tipped only 15-20%, maybe I wouldn't get a free dessert, but I would have paid less money over the course of the month as well.

I don't play blackjack, so this is a very convoluted example based upon nothing, but let's say you're playing blackjack at $10 a hand. Because you're tipping, the dealer is "flashing" the next card off the top of the deck. Obviously, I don't know how the person would do that, considering the deck is in a shoe, but go with me here. Clearly, seeing the next card must give some kind of huge advantage on knowing whether or not you should hit or stand, the most obvious advantage being that you would never bust out. When you win your hands, you're giving the dealer a $1 tip, 10% of your winnings, which is the reason the dealer is doing this in the first place. I understand that blackjack is a low house expectation game, and knowing the next card must change that expectation somewhat, but is it enough of a change to offset the loss incurred by tipping? For the record, I would state that if I were at a table where this was happening, I would probably just get up and leave. It's nice to have that inside information, but I would foresee to many problems, namely resulting from the casino believing that you and the dealer were in cahoots to rip off the casino and undergoing some sort of legal problems, if not worse.

Again, this is really more of a hypothetical question. I just wonder if such player advantages, if they are resultant, are offset by the tipping.

After the first bet and you are aware of what the dealer is doing you are now taking part in a felony. Good luck in jail.

The waiter/dessert analogy is false. When a waiter gives you a free dessert and doesn't charge you, typically one of two things is happening. Either the waiter has gotten approval from the manager or the waiter is willing to pay the cost out of his or her own pocket to show gratitude for your regular patronage. Either way, you are not participating or benefitting from dishonesty.

If a dealer is frequently giving you an advantage that is not allowed by the rules, he or she is stealing from the casino, and you are benefitting.

My feeling on these types of things is that mistakes happen both ways and are often uncorrected. In the long run, true errors probably even out. When you cross the line from "error" to deliberate fudging, however, it becomes dishonesty.

I have to wonder how often this kind of thing could really occur. My understanding is that casino surveillance is pretty robust, and it's even more intense with regard to dealers than patrons.

Quote: konceptum

...my question still remains, does it become any sort of significant advantage? And if so, is that advantage offset by the tipping?

I tip no matter what the dealers are doing.

Well, if you're tipping anyway, then tips don't offset the advantage -- unless your tipping habbits change / increase because of it.