Celebrate Religion here

Quote: FrGamble

the Church is not scared

Not only is the Church scared, they're scared to
death. They're losing everything they hold dear
as they move into the future.

Quote: FrGamble

My argument is only that billions of people testifing to the truth of something is indeed good solid evidence that should be weighed and not dismissed out of hand.

Let's say I hand you a box and you determine it to be empty. If billions of people testified it was full, would you consider that good, solid evidence that should be weighed and not dismissed out of hand?

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There is no scientific proof (nor can there be) that God exists or does not exist,

You lost me at "or." There is no "or" in this argument. You claim god exists. Fine. Prove it. Until you do, or someone else does, there is no reason to believe any kind of deity exists or, as far as we know, can exist.

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therefore we have to consider the evidence.

"There you go again," attributed to Ronald Reagan.

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I am suggesting that it is quite amazing the hubris in declaring worthless the fact that so many millions upon millions of people who are much smarter than you, me, and all on this forum and who have dedicated their lives to study of theology, philosophy, history, and religion believed with all their heart and mind that there is indeed a God.

1) I don't think there are millions upon millions of people smarter than the average user of this forum (especially since Logan/Singer left).

2) Studying history, philosophy, religion and science is a useful way to determine why so many people believe in deities, and why such beliefs have persisted for so long.

3) There are many other misconceptions and simply wrong assumptions people make regarding the world. Some far more consequential than religion, like for example the value of eye-witness testimony.

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I think we need to take a reality check and recognize how strange it sounds to say everyone was completely wrong and I am right.

See the empty box example above. Would you consider you need a "reality check," or that everyone is completely wrong and you are right?

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It is prideful, childish, foolish, not logical and it would not make the Xaverian Brother's very proud.

You go two things right. The first, for certain, and I assume the second. Also, it's interesting you can deride and uphold pride in the same paragraph.

I'm not sure everyone is clear on a few things regarding the Galileo case. First it should be remembered that Galileo was not the first one to propose that the earth revolved around the sun. A Catholic priest by the name of Nicholas Copernicus proposed that theory towards the end of his life. It was accepted as a theory but being unprovable at the time because of technological limitations it was accepted by everyone including the Church to be a valid theory. When Galileo, a faithful Catholic himself, became convinced of the fact that the earth revolved aroung the sun he proposed it as a fact and not a theory. He was attacked by his fellow scientists who rightly claimed the physical evidence could not support this idea at the time. He also pushed the Church to recognize what I've mentioned already on this forum a couple of times, namely that the Bible was not a scientific textbook, but a book of faith whose every verse does not need to be taken literally. Many in the Church agreed with Galileo not only about his scientific theory but about its theological implications. The Pope, who was a personal friend of Galileo's, was not ready to move too quickly in proposing his science a fact without all the evidence and against many other scientists, nor was he ready to push the idea of a non-literal translation of the Bible too strongly even though this idea has always been present in the Church. It was a combonation of proposing his theory at the time as fact and his interpretation of Scripture that got him in trouble. Interestingly the Church is more sorry for its treatment of his Biblical theology than its lack of acceptance in regards to his science. He was totally right about how we need to look at Scripture, but it turns out his theory that the sun was not only the center of our solar system, but of the whole universe was not totally correct.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm not sure everyone is clear on a few things regarding the Galileo case.

I'm sure you're not clear on the Galileo case.

Regardless of what the actual controversy was, the Church reacted by threatening Galileo and later by keeping him under house arrest. That's what people find abhorrent and horrible, and extremely offensive. This institution that purports to represent an all-loving deity, when challenged intellectually responds, effectively, by saying "Shut up, or I'll kick the crap out of you!"

Defend that.

Quote: Nareed

Regardless of what the actual controversy was, the Church reacted by threatening Galileo and later by keeping him under house arrest. That's what people find abhorrent and horrible, and extremely offensive. This institution that purports to represent an all-loving deity, when challenged intellectually responds, effectively, by saying "Shut up, or I'll kick the crap out of you!"

Defend that.

This is why Pope John Paul II prayed for the forgiveness of the Church's sins in the year 2000. Below is an excerpt form the litany of prayers:

A representative of the Roman Curia:

Let us pray that each one of us,
looking to the Lord Jesus, meek and humble of heart,
will recognize that even men of the Church,
in the name of faith and morals,
have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel
in the solemn duty of defending the truth.

Silent prayer.

The Holy Father:

Lord, God of all men and women,
in certain periods of history
Christians have at times given in to intolerance
and have not been faithful to the great commandment of love,
sullying in this way the face of the Church, your Spouse.
Have mercy on your sinful children
and accept our resolve
to seek and promote truth in the gentleness of charity,
in the firm knowledge that truth
can prevail only in virtue of truth itself.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

R. Amen.

R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.

A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.

Quote: FrGamble

This is why Pope John Paul II prayed for the forgiveness of the Church's sins in the year 2000. Below is an excerpt form the litany of prayers:

Ah, well that explains it.

You see, the prayer says nothing about forgiveness. It does recognize mistakes, barely, then has some begging and flattery of god (I must admit that, if this is typical Christian flatter, it's milder than the Jewish kind).

But that would explain why Catholics still try to justify or explain away the Church's treatment of Galileo.

I find it hilarious that JPII found fault with prior popes yet some people still believe in the infallibility of the pope.

Quote: FrGamble

Your arrogance is unbelievable. Excuse me if I represent frankly the fact that the Church is not scared about surviving after these two thousand years because EvenBob armed with a incorrect and prejudiced view of history says we need to change to fit his vision of what is right. I think we will stick with the truths of God and we'll see you in another couple thousand years or when the Lord returns. Good grief!

That's why there's a shortage of priests, at the same time congregations and attendance are shrinking.

The church is at least concerned, if not scared. And if they are not, then they should be.

Quote: FrGamble

My argument is only that billions of people testifing to the truth of something is indeed good solid evidence that should be weighed and not dismissed out of hand.

Non-Christians outnumber Christians by a factor of 2.5 to 1. Can 5 billion people be wrong?

Quote: MathExtremist

Non-Christians outnumber Christians by a factor of 2.5 to 1. Can 5 billion people be wrong?

He was waiting for that one. He's arguing for God, not the nature of that god. Once we accept God (based on the weight of numbers), then the argument turns toward which god is God.