View Royal Casino -- Victoria, BC

Greetings from sunny Victoria, British Columbia. Earlier today I paid a visit to the View Royal casino, which is about a 20-minute bus ride from downtown Victoria. Here are some facts and observations about casino. If anything is in error, I welcome correction, as always.

All casinos, and there are several of them, in British Columbia are strictly overseen by the provincial government, although actual management is done by a private company. Based on answers given to me by the slot manager at the View Royal, all BC casinos are part of the same player reward program and you should find the same game rules at all casinos.

The View Royal casino is one of only two casinos on Vancouver island. The other is way up north, so the View Royal is pretty much the only gambling option close to Victoria. It can be found in the city of View Royal, which is on the outskirts of the greater Victoria area, along a highway in a commercial area. The casino is small to medium in size, with about 500 slots and about 20 table games. There is little to do besides gambling. There is no smoking (yeah!), no alcohol (boo!), and no music. The clientele seemed like locals, but it was hard to tell as most players just sat there an played without saying a word. If you prefer to be left alone while you play you shouldn't have any problem at the View Royal. If you're looking for excitement apart from the actual gambling, you probably won't find it.

There is a free shuttle that makes a loop between various stops in downtown Victoria and the casino every 90 minutes. I picked up a schedule at the visitor information center at the inner harbor. The shuttle is a comfortable passenger van. On the way back the driver asked where you were getting off. As long as it was on his way, or not far off of it, I think he would drop off customers anywhere on the way back.

I visited the casino from 7 PM to 9 PM on Sunday, July 10. About half the table games were manned, and of those the average number of players was about three. I would estimate that about 25% of the machines were being played. Other than the casino there is a snack bar in a separate room. In the penny slots room there is a small bar, where I was told you could order alcoholic beverages, but could not take them elsewhere in the casino. There was also a counter to buy lottery tickets. With the generalities out of the way, here are the games they offered and the rules.

Video Poker:

VP does not seem to be very popular at the View Royal. I would estimate the ratio of reeled slots to VP to be about 20 to 1. What games I did find were multi-denom with with the following games:

Deuces Wild
25 ¢: 25-15-10-4-3-2 (94.82%)
50 ¢ 16-13-10-4-3-2 (96.77%)
$1 25-15-9-4-4-3 (98.91%)

Double Bonus
25¢ 8-5 (94.19%)
50¢, $1 9-6 (97.81%)

Jacks or Better
25¢ 6-5 (95.00%)
50¢ 7-5 (96.15%)
$1 8-5 (97.30%)

Slots

The BC casinos web site says the average return is 92%.

Video Keno

25¢, 50¢ 8-spot (92.31%)
$1 8-spot (92.62%)

Blackjack

6 decks
Continuous shuffler
Dealer hits soft 17
Late surrender
Double any two cards
Double after split allowed
No resplitting aces
Dealer takes no hole card, but player will lose original bet only if the dealer gets a blackjack.
House edge of 0.55% with correct basic strategy.

I might add that the tables had basic strategy cards available. However, said cards were based on a different set of rules. In particular on where the dealer stands on a soft 17, no surrender, and no double after a split.

Other games

Roulette (double zero)
4-Card Poker
Baccarat
EZ Baccarat
Texas Shootout

Poker

There was an electronic poker game that was shut down when I was there.

Player Club

The player's club is useful for slot players only. Table games players do not get rated. Points are earned at the following rates:

Slots: $1 bet = 1 point
Video blackjack & baccarat: $5 bet = 1 point
Video roulette: $5 bet = 4 points.

Every 1000 points is worth $5 in free play. That would equate to a free play rate of 0.5% for slot players.

There are three levels of cards -- single, double, and triple diamond. It takes only 7,500 in turnover to get double diamond, and 45,000 to get triple, which compared to Vegas is pretty easy to attain the higher levels. Double diamond members get an extra 5% in "bonus points," and triple-diamond members get 10%.

Overall I found the staff to be helpful when I had a question. However, the dealers I encountered were otherwise very quiet, as well as the players. When I had a question the two people at the player club couldn't answer they paged the slot manager.

So that is my report on the View Royal. I welcome all questions, comments, and corrections. I'll probably make a blog entry about this on my Odds site, so I consider this to be a first draft.

>Greetings from sunny Victoria, British Columbia.
Is that humor or was it really sunny when you were there?

>which is about a 20-minute bus ride from downtown Victoria.
Is it Victoria or Vancouver that has the proposed mega-casino project in the downtown area?

>as most players just sat there an played without saying a word.
That can be a refreshing change. And it obviously means that there are no young ladies chatting up a series of unattached males. I'm surprized about the no music. Even Dotty plays music.

Deuces Wild
25 ¢: 25-15-10-4-3-2 (94.82%)
50 ¢ 16-13-10-4-3-2 (96.77%)
$1 25-15-9-4-4-3 (98.91%)
Double Bonus
25¢ 8-5 (94.19%)
50¢, $1 9-6 (97.81%)
Jacks or Better
25¢ 6-5 (95.00%)
50¢ 7-5 (96.15%)
$1 8-5 (97.30%)
........ so does this compare favorably with Las Vegas pay tables?

>The BC casinos web site says the average return is 92%.
Mean, median, modal?
This seems to be a bit on the low side.

Video Keno
25¢, 50¢ 8-spot (92.31%)
$1 8-spot (92.62%)
..........Again, I would compare this to Las Vegas so as to give a more informative comment just so people know what its like even if they have no intention of treking to Vegas.
Blackjack
Dealer takes no hole card, but player will lose original bet only if the dealer gets a blackjack.
House edge of 0.55% with correct basic strategy.

>I might add that the tables had basic strategy cards available. However, said cards were based on a different set of rules.
By how much did such cards erode that 0.55 percent house edge? Or add to it? Is that an easy calculation?

I note you mentioned Video Roulette in the slot club discussion how does that differ from the live roulette wheel's edge?
Also your slot club earnings section might have a comparison to Vegas casinos just to let people know how Canada does things.

Craps players are left with nothing. *sigh*

Quote: FleaStiff

Is that humor or was it really sunny when you were there?

I've been in the Seattle and Victoria for a week now and the weather has been great the entire time. Sunny skies and not a drop of rain.

Quote: FleaStiff

Is it Victoria or Vancouver that has the proposed mega-casino project in the downtown area?

I don't know, but my guess would be Vancouver. A big casino in downtown would not blend well into Victoria. It would be like putting a casino along the waterfront in San Francisco.

Quote: FleaStiff

>as most players just sat there an played without saying a word.
That can be a refreshing change. And it obviously means that there are no young ladies chatting up a series of unattached males. I'm surprized about the no music. Even Dotty plays music.

Indeed. Depends on why you're playing. The median player age was about 50. The number of attractive women I noticed was zero. There was one average looking gal, but she was there with boyfriend. She just sat there and watched him play. Rarely did they speak to each other, and even then they whispered. I've seen libraries with more talking than this casino.

Quote: FleaStiff

(re: video poker_so does this compare favorably with Las Vegas pay tables?

Much worse.

Quote: FleaStiff

>The BC casinos web site says the average return is 92%.
Mean, median, modal?
This seems to be a bit on the low side.

The web site didn't state the median or mode. The 92% would be the mean, I assume by machine. I'm not sure what games are included in that figure. 92% is about where Vegas sets its low-denom slots too.

Quote: FleaStiff

Video Keno
25¢, 50¢ 8-spot (92.31%)
$1 8-spot (92.62%)
..........Again, I would compare this to Las Vegas so as to give a more informative comment just so people know what its like even if they have no intention of treking to Vegas.

That is about the same as Vegas low-denom video keno.

Quote: FleaStiff

(re: incorrect basic strategy card)
By how much did such cards erode that 0.55 percent house edge? Or add to it? Is that an easy calculation?

Not surrendering costs 0.09%. To make an educated guess, the no DAS about 0.04%. The S17 0.01%. So about 0.14% total due to the wrong card. Perhaps I'll figure it out exactly when I get back home. If anyone else wants to save me the trouble, my blackjack appendix 9 on my Odds site would be all that you need to answer the question.

Quote: FleaStiff

I note you mentioned Video Roulette in the slot club discussion how does that differ from the live roulette wheel's edge?
Also your slot club earnings section might have a comparison to Vegas casinos just to let people know how Canada does things.

The free play in video roulette would be 0.4%. So lower the house edge from 5.26% to 4.86%. The free play rates is better than most Vegas slot clubs. While the pamphlet also mentions other "offers and promotions," as a non-competitive casino, I doubt they compare to such incentives in Vegas.

Regarding the question about craps, I asked the supervisor about it. He said a much larger casino in Vancouver had a craps table at one time and it didn't get enough customers to play it, so they took it out. Based on that experience, they never put one in at the Victoria casino. Strange that they would have Texas Shootout but not craps. Then again, I think for many years dice games were illegal in Canadian casinos, so perhaps our friends up north have not had a chance to get to know the game yet.

Quote: odiousgambit

Craps players are left with nothing. *sigh*

What is it about craps anyway?

It seems plenty of jurisdictions either don't like or plain don't allow craps. There's the nonsense with cards in California, and from what I read here it seems in many palces the game just isn't attractive enough to be played.

Ok. I can see craps requires a larger investment than most games, and it should have bigger operating costs. I mean, the table is larger, and massive, and a proper game requires two dealers plus a stickman and boxman. So, sure, that would amek the game less attractive to casinos. On the other hand, the table allows for a lot of players, the game moves very fast, and there are a lot of bets available per throw, many with high house edges. And that ought to make the game more attractive to casinos.

So what is it about craps?

Quote: Nareed

What is it about craps anyway?

on the recent East coast casino expansion there was little thought about bringing tables games and not having Craps! Last time I was in DE they needed to open another table midday and apparently didnt have the dealers to do it.

Quote: Wizard

Strange that they would have Texas Shootout but not craps. Then again, I think for many years dice games were illegal in Canadian casinos, so perhaps our friends up north have not had a chance to get to know the game yet.

My thought exactly. The only market that I'm aware of where Texas Shootout thrives is the Kansas City market. Ameristar has like three tables of it. But even Ameristar Council Bluffs, Iowa where the game debuted and survived for at least 6 years no longer has it (replaced by, well I guess there are a few new games that could have replaced it... EZ Bacc or MS Stud is my guess.)

On the record, I kind of enjoy Shootout. It does have a high house edge, but it's fun.

Quote: Nareed

What is it about craps anyway??

It may just be a self perpetuating situation. If dice were illegal for awhile there may be a generation who grew up ignorant of craps, if the laws change that does not mean demand will be there. It just might be that there is an insufficient number of players clamoring for a dice game or that the casino owners think that there are too few players.

Quote: Wizard

She just sat there and watched him play. Rarely did they speak to each other, and even then they whispered. I've seen libraries with more talking than this casino.

Well, this is Victoria. Extremely polite.

>So about 0.14% total due to the wrong card.
Oh, okay. That's not all that much. I just wondered about why the casino personnel never noticed this.

Quote: odiousgambit

on the recent East coast casino expansion there was little thought about bringing tables games and not having Craps! Last time I was in DE they needed to open another table midday and apparently didnt have the dealers to do it.

I don't quite understand. They had insufficient dealers for craps or for some other game?

I've been thinking that perhaps craps is seen as low-class. Perhaps because it uses dice, or perhaps because of the cmplex lingo attached to it. and that may have something to do with the lack of popularity.

It's also a hard game to learn. I've mastered the pass/don't pass come/don't come pay, but that's it. When I see discussions here about buying and laying numbers, and having bets working or not, and the myriad prop bets, my eyes glaze over.

Quote: Nareed

...It's also a hard game to learn. I've mastered the pass/don't pass come/don't come pay, but that's it.

That's pretty much all you need to know. In fact, it's probably best that you don't learn any other bets on the table. Well, maybe the place 6/8.

Quote: Wizard

I've been in the Seattle and Victoria for a week now and the weather has been great the entire time. Sunny skies and not a drop of rain.

Shhh! Don't tell everyone that summer has arrived up here!

I live in Vancouver and that big casino project mentioned is planned for downtown Vancouver, right beside the BC Place Stadium which happens to be directly across the street from the current downtown casino (Edgewater).

For years there were no craps tables in town due to gaming regulations regarding dice but that changed about 5 years ago. The Edgewater Casino had one craps table up until about 6 months ago when they took it out due to lack of play. There is one table in town (at the Grand Villa Casino in Burnaby, about 15 minutes from downtown Vancouver) that gets a lot of play. It has the Fire Pay bet and the crew is so-so. You'll also find craps at the River Rock and Boulevard casinos.

Not a lot of locals play craps for the reason Nareed mentioned - it wasn't available for so long that very few locals know the game and have little interest in learning and in many cases the crew doesn't know how to run the game at any kind of pace that makes it fun. Lots of payout errors and an air of disinterest.

The best poker games in town are found in the following casinos and from best to worst in this order: the River Rock (Richmond), Edgewater (downtown Vancouver), Boulevard (Coquitlam), Cascades (Langley) and Starlight (New Westminster).

If anyone has any questions about Vancouver area casinos I'd be happy to respond with as much information as I can get for you. As for the Wizard's comments about the Victoria casino and how quiet it is he's absolutely right. Victoria is known locally as the home of the "Newlyweds and nearly-deads". It's a great place to visit or retire and it is a very quiet place in general.

I've never seen craps prosper anywhere outside the US. To the outsider it is a complicated and intimidating game. However, it really is pretty easy to master just the line bets and odds, which is all you need. Seems to me the existing players are dying off, and not being replaced by young players. In two generations I think it will be hard to find a game anywhere.

Quote: TheNightfly

I live in Vancouver and that big casino project mentioned is planned for downtown Vancouver, right beside the BC Place Stadium which happens to be directly across the street from the current downtown casino (Edgewater).... Victoria is known locally as the home of the "Newlyweds and nearly-deads". It's a great place to visit or retire and it is a very quiet place in general.

I didn't know that. Whatever happened to the Chinatown casino there?

My water taxi driver today said that Victoria has the best weather in Canada, and thus attracts a lot of elderly people in the same way that Arizona and Florida do for Americans.

Quote: Wizard

I've never seen craps prosper anywhere outside the US. To the outsider it is a complicated and intimidating game. However, it really is pretty easy to master just the line bets and odds, which is all you need. Seems to me the existing players are dying off, and not being replaced by young players. In two generations I think it will be hard to find a game anywhere.

My water taxi driver today said that Victoria has the best weather in Canada, and thus attracts a lot of elderly people in the same way that Arizona and Florida do for Americans.

You were in my 'hood and you didn't say hello?

Victoria does have great weather (though those who like it hot are best of going to the Okangan Desert in BC, or so I am told). Rain fall is much less than Seattle and Vancouver due to the rain shadow effect of the Olympic mountains, the sea keeps a breeze going even in summer and a bit warmer in winter. I love it here. Apparently it's been a cold July. I don't mind, it's great for getting out and about into the countryside.

Some of those water taxi drivers are full of it though. I've not heard more lies per mile than from a water taxi driver :)

There's been talk about another casino downtown near the water front to pick up some of the cruise trip trade. Hopefully it doesn't happen. I've been to View Royal three times : once to look at it, once to show my friend what a backwater casino can be like and once because I was driving past and had had a free drawing offer that I wanted to drop in a box.

The VP also goes to 10 coins on some of the machines. I put $10 through once... and I like VP... the whole experience is rather sad and uninspiring. The tribal casinos in Washington do a much better job (then I don't think BC government should be running the casinos anyways), and River Rock has a much more entertainment/gambling buzz as well.

Quote: thecesspit

You were in my 'hood and you didn't say hello?

Sorry about that. I don't like to announce to the whole world when I'm out of town.

I appreciate your comments. That casino was pretty dead, but I didn't want to put it so strongly. A lot of it is not their fault, due to a lot of elderly players.

Seems to me the city might make less money off cruise ship traffic with a casino, for these reasons:

1. There is already a casino on the cruise ships.
2. I've noticed the patrons in cruise ship casinos tend to be small bettors.
3. Said patrons might leave more money behind doing other activities, of which there are plenty to choose from.

Quote: Wizard

Whatever happened to the Chinatown casino there?

The Chinatown casino hasn't been around for almost 8 years or so. The Holiday Inn casino on Broadway closed about 5 years ago. The Blueboy/Grand Casino on Marine Drive has also been gone almost 5 years. The Renaissance casino shut down almost a decade ago. The closures were due mostly to the fact that these were small casinos in rather out-of-the-way locations that didn't make a lot of money and couldn't sustain a big loss. They've now been replaced by the big(ger) joints like Edgewater and River Rock.

Quote: TheNightfly

The Chinatown casino hasn't been around for almost 8 years or so. The Holiday Inn casino on Broadway closed about 5 years ago. The Blueboy/Grand Casino on Marine Drive has also been gone almost 5 years. The Renaissance casino shut down almost a decade ago. The closures were due mostly to the fact that these were small casinos in rather out-of-the-way locations that didn't make a lot of money and couldn't sustain a big loss. They've now been replaced by the big(ger) joints like Edgewater and River Rock.

Thanks. The former Chinatown casino did a terrible job of advertising. As I recall it was on the third floor of a nondescript office building with zero signage. I think it was only by doing some advance research I even knew about it. Perhaps there was some law forbidding them to advertise, in the same way that the Pahrump brothels can't advertise openly in Las Vegas. Actually, I've started to see some discrete ads for the bars in said brothels, so maybe that is a bad example.

Quote: TheNightfly

The Chinatown casino hasn't been around for almost 8 years or so. The Holiday Inn casino on Broadway closed about 5 years ago. The Blueboy/Grand Casino on Marine Drive has also been gone almost 5 years. The Renaissance casino shut down almost a decade ago. The closures were due mostly to the fact that these were small casinos in rather out-of-the-way locations that didn't make a lot of money and couldn't sustain a big loss. They've now been replaced by the big(ger) joints like Edgewater and River Rock.

Wow, it's been 5 years since the Broadway closed... that's about how long I've been in BC then...

Quote: Wizard

Sorry about that. I don't like to announce to the whole world when I'm out of town.

I appreciate your comments. That casino was pretty dead, but I didn't want to put it so strongly. A lot of it is not their fault, due to a lot of elderly players.

Flower beds, newly weds and nearly deads. That's Victoria (according to the common saying anyways). The casino is a pretty nondescript part of the city too, out with all the used car lots, and has no view to speak of... which is hard work to do in Victoria.

Quote:

Seems to me the city might make less money off cruise ship traffic with a casino, for these reasons:

1. There is already a casino on the cruise ships.
2. I've noticed the patrons in cruise ship casinos tend to be small bettors.
3. Said patrons might leave more money behind doing other activities, of which there are plenty to choose from.

Indeed. I think it's a horrible idea for Victoria, but seem people seem to be insensed that there is a real working docks and float plane harbour there and want to "develop" it all...

Quote: Wizard

Seems to me the city might make less money off cruise ship traffic with a casino, for these reasons:
1. There is already a casino on the cruise ships.
2. I've noticed the patrons in cruise ship casinos tend to be small bettors.

Seems like one of those "No Brainer" things. So probably the casino proposed for that dock area is really aimed at local residents and the real estate interests don't want to admit that.

Quote: Wizard

Seems to me the city might make less money off cruise ship traffic with a casino, for these reasons:

1. There is already a casino on the cruise ships.

From all I've heard about casinos on cruise ships, I'd save my money for a land casino with better rules and payouts.

Quote:

2. I've noticed the patrons in cruise ship casinos tend to be small bettors.

No way around that, except maybe to make a flea-type casino like Casino Royale on the Strip, or a Vegas-type low-end locals joint. But maybe all that is covered by existing casinos? In any case a grind joint is not quite the best investment these days.

Quote:

3. Said patrons might leave more money behind doing other activities, of which there are plenty to choose from.

Can't argue with that. people tend to do certain things in certain palces. I gamble in Vegas, for example, and if for some reason i ever tooka cruise, I'd look for other thigns to do.

Quote: Nareed

From all I've heard about casinos on cruise ships, I'd save my money for a land casino with better rules and payouts.

The video poker on cruise ships have extremely stingy pay tables. I would expect the slots are set very low as well, given the captive audience. The rake in poker is also very high, as I recall 10% on Norwegian. However, the table games follow fairly standard rules.

A Victoria casino might capture some sharp machine players, boycotting the ship casinos, but in my opinion most players don't bother to consider the rules and will just play wherever is convenient.

Quote: Wizard

The video poker on cruise ships have extremely stingy pay tables. I would expect the slots are set very low as well, given the captive audience.

So even at a rip-off joint, VP is the least worst alternative :)

Quote:

The rake in poker is also very high, as I recall 10% on Norwegian. However, the table games follow fairly standard rules.

I remember hearing 6:5 and 2x odds for BJ and craps respectively. By my low-low roller standards, 2x on craps is not good.

Quote:

A Victoria casino might capture some sharp machine players, boycotting the ship casinos, but in my opinion most players don't bother to consider the rules and will just play wherever is convenient.

There's that. I recall puzzling over why the craps table at the Fremont, with 2x odds max, saw any action at all, given that MSS nearby offers 20x, and any of the other nearby casinos offers at leas 3,4,5x.

Quote: Nareed

There's that. I recall puzzling over why the craps table at the Fremont, with 2x odds max, saw any action at all, given that MSS nearby offers 20x, and any of the other nearby casinos offers at least 3,4,5x.

Yep, and others close by the FSE, like the El C at 10x, even according to the Wizards survey 4 Queens is 5x.

Here is an exterior shot of the View Royal casino. If there is any royal view in the vicinity, I didn't see it.



In related Victoria news, please see my blog entry about spindle hunting.

Quote: Alan

Yep, and others close by the FSE, like the El C at 10x, even according to the Wizards survey 4 Queens is 5x.

Exactly.

So part of it is as the Wizard says: people will play where it's convenient.

The other part, I suspect, is that prop bets are as bad as elsewhere. I really don't pay much attention to them. Usually I play pass or don't pass, maybe come or don't come, all with as high odds as I dare to risk, and sometimes I'll either place the 6 and/or 8, or lay the 4 and/or 10.

Point is I wouldn't play craps at 2x if something better were available enarby. and probably not at all, except maybe to apss the time and with very low stakes. But plenty of people do.

Quote: Wizard

Regarding the question about craps, I asked the supervisor about it. He said a much larger casino in Vancouver had a craps table at one time and it didn't get enough customers to play it, so they took it out. Based on that experience, they never put one in at the Victoria casino. Strange that they would have Texas Shootout but not craps. Then again, I think for many years dice games were illegal in Canadian casinos, so perhaps our friends up north have not had a chance to get to know the game yet.

The casino in Vancouver that used to have craps and no longer does is the 'Edgewater' downtown. This is the casino that was looking at building a major casino and hotel since the lease is coming up where they are, unfortunately it was turned down by the city.

There are 4 casinos in greater Vancouver that have one craps table: the 'River Rock, 'Grand Villa, 'Starlight and 'Boulevard'. They are all in the suburbs and 10 to 15 miles from downtown. They are all larger than the downtown casino with the River Rock being the largest with over 100 tables and about 1000 slots. The craps tables typically don't open until noon or later and shut down around 1:00 depending on day of the week and how busy they are. All tables are $5 minimum so they are easy on the budget. The other table games are 24/7 with very few $5 tables. Odds are 3x4x5x.

To return to the question about the cost of using the wrong basic strategy card posted at the tables here are my results:

Surrender errors: 0.088%
Split errors: 0.016%
Double errors: 0.004%
Total errors: 0.108%

So 81% of the cost of errors is not surrendering when you're supposed to. For those who may never visit the View Royal this should still go to show the value of surrendering.

I lived in BC from October 2005 to July 2006. Craps had been out there a few months or so at least upon my arrival. I worked at Boulevard and they were rather happy to have someone with dice experience although not enough to have me sit box or deal. *shrug*

The casino that was supposed to be built ended up getting 86ed from what I'm told and with a moratorium imposed on Greater Vancouver so far as building new ones. It likely would have done well from the cruise ship employees since a great deal of them gamble. Go into a casino in the Caribbean if there's a ship in port and a large chunk of the staff can be found there. Just ask Halifax, Nova Scotia; Paradise Island, Bahamas; Philippsburg, St. Maarten; etc.

Craps has done very well in Niagara Falls, Orillia (Ontario) and in some other jurisdictions but it seems, from someone who has sat box and dealt in many jurisdictions, that the learning curve is so steep that most can't be bothered when they can just follow "the book" (poorly...) with regards to $5 BJ. If you can get someone to play with a crew that wants to teach, you can hook some of the younger folk but the average age of dice players now is well over 35, IMHO.

View Royal is a quaint little joint but, if you want BC gaming excitement, go to River Rock or Boulevard.