Dumping on Dotty's?

Greetings!

For those of you unfamiliar with the concept of a, "Dotty's," it is essentially a Video Poker/Slot parlor with a small convenience store (cheap smokes, apparently!) limited food selection, and fifteen slot/video poker/video slot machines.

In any event, Dotty's' (grammar ???) had long been in operation in the State of Oregon by the time they came to Las Vegas, Nevada in 1996. The locations quickly expanded and currently number 102.

Essentially, these are the same as parlors in the State of West Virginia with a few notable exceptions being that the effective tax rate is much higher in WV, WV limits payouts to a statutory maximum of 95% for its parlors, WV has a maximum of five machines in parlors (special exception for private/public clubs which can have ten because they are both private and public) and Dotty's are (generally) nicer and cleaner than parlors. In fact, I've only seen one parlor in WV nicer than the one Dotty's I peeked inside and that was at an Elks' Club.

Similarities include the fact that both locations are required to have some food items, (WV parlors can have whatever they want, but satisfy the requirement merely by having mini candy bars or Little Debbie type things), both types of locations are required to have beer (WV parlors are required to have a minimum of two kinds of beer for sale---second-hand information---and I don't know what it is for Dotty's) and both locations are required to have coffee/pop. (The coffee & pop must be free to players in WV, I don't know if Dotty's is required to give it away.)

Dotty's can be best described as your Grandma's dining room with slot machines and office chairs.

Anyway, for many years, Dotty's ambled along operating almost strictly as gambling establishments until the big casinos (primarily Stations and Golden Gaming, who rely heavily on the Locals market) got royally p***ed off because they have to do a variety of things to run a full-on casino and pay machine taxes up to 6.75% where as Dotty's, with a restricted license and pay $574 per year, per machine.

Okay, so the Clark County Commission is miffed because Dotty's revenue from machines is supposed to be incidental to other revenues, which, of course, is a law that they themselves put into effect. In 2011, in order to comply, Dotty's installed bars with a minimum of 8/15 machines being bartops, installed kitchens (very limited menu) and have at least 2,500 square feet of public space.

HISTORY:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/may/04/dotty-vs-goliath-can-little-slot-tavern-win-fight-/

http://dmckee.lvablog.com/?p=15126

In any case, Dotty's has lost the fight and is now required to have gambling revenue be incidental, which previously had no definition, but is now defined as being less than 50% of all revenues and they must have full kitchens open at least sixteen hours a day...IMMEDIATELY.

In the event they are non-compliant, non-compliant locations will be reduced from fifteen to seven machines.

http://dmckee.lvablog.com/?p=15155

POLL QUESTION

How should Dotty's locations be handled?

I think that they should be taxed as casinos, personally, because it allows their business model to compete with the business model of the larger casinos, but apparently, that was never an option as far as the Clark County Commission was concerned.

I imagine there are people on here who know much more than I do, so what do you guys think and am I missing anything?

Dotty's "casinos" are a hell of a lot nicer than the slot parlors in West Virginia, that's all I have to say.

Quote: teddys

Dotty's "casinos" are a hell of a lot nicer than the slot parlors in West Virginia, that's all I have to say.

That's true, next time you're in town I'll have to show you the exception. Multi-level establishment, wide variety of snacks, expensive chairs, oak/brick adorned parlor room, fireplace...the whole nine!

I know quite a bit about this topic and have attended some of the commission meetings about it.

My only real problem with what they decided and the new rules is that they are being applied retroactively to sites hat the commission had already approved. I think it should only be enforced for new locations.

In Nevada all sites except casinos the slot machines are supposed to be incidental to the business. Having worked for a company that placed slot machines in over 700 locations in Nevada, the gaming revenue is the primary income to almost every tavern. There is no way they would have over 50% of their revenue from non gaming. I would guess at most taverns it is closer to 90% from gaming as opposed to 50%.

Quote: Mission146

That's true, next time you're in town I'll have to show you the exception. <snip>"

@Mission146: the exception to the "the slot parlors in West Virginia" here (sounds like there are plenty according to the OP), or the exception to Dotty's places (familiar with the one single level by a Walmart). It'd be nice to find a nice multilevel with decent paytables and good chairs.

Quote: jochman

@Mission146: the exception to the "the slot parlors in West Virginia" here (sounds like there are plenty according to the OP), or the exception to Dotty's places (familiar with the one single level by a Walmart). It'd be nice to find a nice multilevel with decent paytables and good chairs.

I meant the exception as in a WV parlor nicer than a Dotty's. You also won't find good paytables in WV with a 95% statutory maximium.

They should just expand nongambling revenue setting it up with a hub for ecommerce at each location. Dotty's Ebay for example, whatever like a corporate inversion. Maybe just buy the plaza's they're in, there are so many ideas, I don't know what stops them unless it's something like a vendetta against them no matter their action.

There are Dotty's Casinos in Billings, Bozeman, Belgrade, Butte and Helena, Montana. They don't get a tax break here
They pay 15% like everyone else.

Dottie's has been a secretive company operating in four or five states.

Its a very profitable company. It knows its niche and while some people view it as a smokers paradise I think its more that they have comfortable chairs, lots of games on each machine and no frills. I know someone who got out of jail from a drug bust and it was a Dotti's operator who gave her a twenty dollar bill to put into the machines. They have a USE your points or LOSE your points policy each month, but if you were in the hospital or something the manager gives them all back to you.

Stations hates them because Stations provides music and real restaurants and nightclubs.

There were two agencies... liquor board and Gaming board.

Lets face it though.... we all knew the money came from the slots, not the peanut butter crackers or ice cream soda.

I think its a great idea for slot players to have a place where they take their pension check and load up a card and just play their favorite slots at their comfortable chair with no distractions.

Even the non smoking Dotties make money.

Stations recently moved in on the customers of those Burger and Beer and Slots bars. Stations recognized the players cards from all the Burger and Beer joints and holds large functions for them at Stations and gives them points good at Stations.

So Stations was never opposed to the Dottie concept.... just to the fact that Dottie was making the money.

Stations invested in the expanded grocery store slots company and in the Burger and Beer slots market. Stations wanted the Dottie customers and revenue but didn't want Dottie.

Quote: mickeycrimm

There are Dotty's Casinos in Billings, Bozeman, Belgrade, Butte and Helena, Montana. They don't get a tax break here
They pay 15% like everyone else.

They have them in Illinois too. Haven't been in one there, but they have to fork over 30% to the state and they only get 5 machines per location and non-smoking of course just like the riverboats.

Also I voted to tax them like casinos because Nevada Gaming Tax rates are a gigantic joke anyway.

Quote: FleaStiff

Dottie's has been a secretive company operating in four or five states.


Stations invested in the expanded grocery store slots company and in the Burger and Beer slots market. Stations wanted the Dottie customers and revenue but didn't want Dottie.

What do you mean by secretive?

You are mistaken about Stations having anything to do with the bars and grocery stores. I believe you are thinking of Golden Gaming which bought the ETT slot route. They are not related other than Fertittas sisters husband owning it.

On the merits of the matter I don't know and don't much care, but as a matter of practical reality:

[x] Kick back more under the table juice to the political machine which runs everything that happens (or doesn't) in Southern Nevada government.

As you may be aware, the entire elected "leadership" (save ONE) of Clark County, Nevada went to federal prison (again) several years ago after the FBI got them on tape (again) taking their customary sacks of cash via a mob bagman (and some other misc tokens such as complementary BJ's on the golf course from a juiced-in "adult entertainment" enterprise). Meet the new stooges installed by the Reid machine to replace them, same as the old ones.

Quote: DrawingDead

On the merits of the matter I don't know and don't much care, but as a matter of practical reality:

[x] Kick back more under the table juice to the political machine which runs everything that happens (or doesn't) in Southern Nevada government.

As you may be aware, the entire elected "leadership" (save ONE) of Clark County, Nevada went to federal prison (again) several years ago after the FBI got them on tape (again) taking their customary sacks of cash via a mob bagman (and some other misc tokens such as complementary BJ's on the golf course from a juiced-in "adult entertainment" enterprise). Meet the new stooges installed by the Reid machine to replace them, same as the old ones.

I was going to say the same thing but thought possibly they're not structured profitably enough to include graff able to compete with a large casino.

Just idle curiosity: Is or was there actually a "Dotty" or is that like "Sara Lee" and "Aunt Jemima" and suchlike?

Quote: DRich

You are mistaken about ... (everything).

Yeah, I know. I must have been sober or something. It was Hard Rock that recently "bought" customer loyalty from the youthful Bars and Burgers market sector with an electronic absorption of PT's card system.

I forget what entity was formed but someone took over grocery store slots, promised to upscale them and unify them under a common card name and point system. I mentally cataloged it as a Stations sponsored action but it may have been based on names and pants pockets versus corporate pockets stuff. I'm sure Stations didn't directly do it so soon after having successfully strangled dear old aunt Dotty.

Quote: tringlomane

They have them in Illinois too. Haven't been in one there, but they have to fork over 30% to the state and they only get 5 machines per location and non-smoking of course just like the riverboats.

Also I voted to tax them like casinos because Nevada Gaming Tax rates are a gigantic joke anyway.

I think that may be why there are no Dotty's in West Virginia. The tax in Nevada on machines seems to be up to 6.75% of revenue for casinos...before the WV parlors even have to think about revenue, WV taxes them 2% of the GROSS INCOME in machines right off the bat! You stick a $20 in there, West Virginia's got $0.40 of that already, whether the parlor wins or loses!

It's no wonder WV has a statutory maximum return of 95% for these places, at exactly 95%, the House would only have an effective 3% edge before it even starts getting taxed on the positive revenues!

Quote: DrawingDead

Just idle curiosity: Is or was there actually a "Dotty" or is that like "Sara Lee" and "Aunt Jemima" and suchlike?

NO, there is no Aunt Dotty. There never was an aunt Dotty. Its more akin to "Aunt Jemima", a figment of the imagination of a marketing executive who desired some sort of uniformity in his establishments so they all look like they were decorated in a similar country kitchen style.

For a while I was claiming that Aunt Dotty was real and did exist. I was supposedly selling seminars and other training materials that help people believe in Aunt Dottie and once you became a believer you would see her making the rounds of her various establishments and refilling the salt and pepper shakers. It was, once again, merely part of my warped sense of humor.

Quote: Mission146

I think that may be why there are no Dotty's in West Virginia. The tax in Nevada on machines seems to be up to 6.75% of revenue for casinos...before the WV parlors even have to think about revenue, WV taxes them 2% of the GROSS INCOME in machines right off the bat! You stick a $20 in there, West Virginia's got $0.40 of that already, whether the parlor wins or loses!

It's no wonder WV has a statutory maximum return of 95% for these places, at exactly 95%, the House would only have an effective 3% edge before it even starts getting taxed on the positive revenues!

Gaming laws say gross but don't mean it literally. I doubt it's true the way you interpret. Think about it, you could bankrupt them single handedly and they couldn't stop it.

I think it was WVA that had some fun defining parlors ... so some places put up interior walls and created two parlors but didn't take out any machines.

Quote: FleaStiff

I think it was WVA that had some fun defining parlors ... so some places put up interior walls and created two parlors but didn't take out any machines.

They have to be so many feet away from each other which becomes pretty significant in placement.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

They have to be so many feet away from each other which becomes pretty significant in placement.

It's 150 feet, there are exceptions, and the ones that were already closer than that were Grandfathered.

As far as the tax, I think the code says, "Gross Receipts," which would be coin in, I'd have to look it up on the computer later...I'm on my phone right now.

Irrespective of how the concept fares in other states and irrespective of any taxation issues in those other states, I think it was very unfair for the "establishment" casinos, clearly lead by Stations, to squash the competition based on such flimsy issues as separate machines in clusters versus bar-top machines in a row. The only real objections the casinos ever had was that Dotty was getting the money and they were not. There were no other issues, just smoke, mirrors, lawyers and publicity hacks.

Quote: FleaStiff

The only real objections the casinos ever had was that Dotty was getting the money and they were not. There were no other issues, just smoke, mirrors, lawyers and publicity hacks.

Oh no. I've just learned Dotty gave an electronic acquaintance of mine a hundred dollars on her birthday. Not even the Venetian ever did that for me.

Quote: FleaStiff

Oh no. I've just learned Dotty gave an electronic acquaintance of mine a hundred dollars on her birthday. Not even the Venetian ever did that for me.

They are bad for for everyone all around.

Quote: AxelWolf

They are bad for for everyone all around.

Care to expand?

I was only in one in Sparks a few years back and was shocked something like this existed. The smoke was so thick and the decorations were from the 70's. Didn't play at all and if they are all like this, I guess I know your answer. But someone must like them.

They are degen slot paradises. VP players on Game Kings must bet 100 credits on 9/5 JOB to get a full pay royal the last time I surveyed one. You can go to a bar at Station and get 8/5 BP with a progressive on five quarters.

It is convenience gambling at its finest, but marginally better than playing slots at the gas station or grocery store.

Every Dotty's I have been to had NSUD (99.73%).

Regarding the legal issue, as much as I like Dotty's, I believe in playing fair. If they don't make 50% of their revenue from non-gambling business, then they should be treated as a slot parlor. They do sell a lot of cheap cigarettes but I doubt that accounts for a big slice of their revenue.

What is considered revenue for slots at these type of places? Is it just coin-in ? Or is it net hold? If it is net hold, I could see them under the 50% if they then count the sale of other products as revenue without considering the cost of the product. It wouldn't really be an apple to apple comparison since you are comparing profit with revenue, but how was the law written.

Quote: Wizard

Every Dotty's I have been to had NSUD (99.73%).

Regarding the legal issue, as much as I like Dotty's, I believe in playing fair. If they don't make 50% of their revenue from non-gambling business, then they should be treated as a slot parlor. They do sell a lot of cheap cigarettes but I doubt that accounts for a big slice of their revenue.

I have always thought Dotty's offered good gaming.

If restricted locations like bars and Dotty's were required to have over 50% non-gaming revenue, 90% of the bars in Las Vegas would be affected. If you follow the local politics of it those against Dotty's will not put a percentage of revenue requirement on it. They always use ambiguous terms so they can single out Dotty's without affecting the majority of locations. Politically they should just say that any new restricted locations require 50% or more non-gaming revenue.

My personal opinion is that everybody should just pay x% of their net gaming revenue in taxes. No quotas -- just a simple percentage.

I'll have to check out NSUD. Is it 100 coins for max royal on Game Kings?

The Dotty's fight involves Golden Gaming which I always found to be hypocritical. PT's is no less a slot parlor than Dotty's. The Dotty's on Sahara in question was 91% slot revenue, 8% tobacco and 1% food/bev.

I doubt a PT's is any lower than 80% gaming. People don't go there to eat. Those that go there to drink spend maybe $10-$15 per person. People that gamble lose $100. There are far more gamblers than drinkers at most PT's.

You have to be a serious restaurant to have gaming incidental. BWW and Fridays come to mind.

Quote: Boz

Care to expand?

I was only in one in Sparks a few years back and was shocked something like this existed. The smoke was so thick and the decorations were from the 70's. Didn't play at all and if they are all like this, I guess I know your answer. But someone must like them.

That's like saying, there's a lot of Seven Elevens, someone must like them. It's just convenient for people to get their daily fix or whatever the case is. It's usually quick easy parking and there's always one just down the street.

For the record I do know dotty's offers some good VP and there's even some advantages there.

They do have free snacks and cheap smokes. The "free Drinks" are easy to get. Just dress well(at least just don't look homeless) sit down and just look like you're going to play. I think they now offer food but I haven't seen anyone eating it.

On the business side It's probably a gold mine. It takes one employee to run a shift. Obviously there's management and others somewhere.

Socially and economically I think Dotty's is bad. I believe they have helped kill many local independent bars.
Call them the McDonald's or Walmart of gambling dressed up as something "fancy".

They don't create competition, they just crush it. The Boz's here in Las Vegas have very little chance of opening a successful bar nowadays.

Bars that have been open since the 90's are shutting down and being replaced by Dotty's and other copycats.
Is Dotty's to blame? I really don't know, but they certainly are not helping.

Some bars have fantastic food here in Vegas(its not always the normal bar food you would expect). They also have cool events, bands, games, promotions, sports etc etc. Dotty's has nothing special.

Somehow they attract middle age women. It's probably because the stigma of going to a bar or casino. Dotty's seems neither like a bar or casino. Its more like the Country Kitchen. Listen to how it sounds. Family member says, "Betty what did you do today?" Betty says, "Oh I just went to Dotty's." How innocent sounding is that?

From an AP standpoint someone might say they have some good machines. Unfortunately almost all locations are Identical including the same mundane promotions that they have had for years. If you seen one, you seen them all.

Personally I want own them or get rid of them.

I just saw a video about Las Vegas casinos in bad areas and one was La Vallita Casino, which with zero research I will declare that it's a Dotty's-owned casino.

The tipoff (among many) is the U1 video slots.

It's a Latino version of what Red Dragon is for an Asian-theme casino.

Like what has been discussed before, I feel that this type of casino is a superficial shell of a business yet does offer a clean, comfortable atmosphere for casual gaming (and some drinks and light food), so I'm conflicted by their existence.