pai gow hand and how it should have been handled

here is the background on the hand in question.... Gold Coast Casino FPG- me betting 2 hands at $500 using chips and $100 bills. (my hand and the dragon hand, usually). I have $300 in $100 bills and $200 in green on hand A which I set. I then receive the dragon and I put out a stack of $500 all green chips. the my dragon hand is Q-9 low, with a 2-3-4-5-6 straight high side. the dealer has K-4 low with a A-2-3-4-5 straight high. ( the second highest straight, so I should lose). the dealer pushes hand A and I take my money back into my bankroll and then pushes my dragon hand (she must have been new as I believe she thought the wheel straight lost to my 6 high). as she's picking up my hand and putting it into the shuffler the floor notices the error as he is talking to the dealer I pull my wager back off the betting circle. the floor then backs up the cards and points out that I should lose and asks me for my bet?!!!???...

what transpires next is my question:
the floor asks me for me to give him $300 bet, he first asked the dealer and since she never proved my hand A wager or my dragon bet, she doesn't know how much and guesses $300. now if they would have said you owe us $500, I would have paid. I am a "advantage player" in that I never cheat, but I feel it's the dealer's job to pay and take correctly and if they make an error, well that's the price of doing business. I know not everyone holds that value of ethics but I think its fair.

I now tell the floor that I didn't have $300 wagered. he calls surveillance (as a side note I'm a surveillance manager in a fairly large Casino (bigger than GC) and he comes back with surveillance said you had $400 bet. I then call BS on the guy and say you guys have no idea what I had bet. we argue for about 10 minutes back and forth and then he calls the shift manager. he calls surveillance and comes back with yet another different # that I had wagered and said they could tell because she broke the bet down the hand before, which was a lie she hadn't broken down a wager of mine in 3 hands. now the table has been dead for 25 minutes and he starts accusing me of cruising the casino and taking shots. I'm getting more and more upset (another side note is that on this trip I was killing GC up about 10k on FPG, Sports, BJ and Craps) but that is regardless. he starts in again how I'm "cheating" his casino and if I want to make another wager here I gotta pay the lost bet.

I can guarantee that they cannot tell my wager from the camera view, I'm sure that they only have an overhead shot and it's impossible to tell a chip stack from that vantage point. and you need that view to read the cards, but unless someone takes a second camera over and views the wagers, you just have no idea 1 chip looks the same as a stack of 20. so what does the WOV think should have happened to me and by me. i'll post what actually did happen in a couple of days.

Although it's tacky IMO, the house has the right to demand the water from you. You did lose it after all.

Here's where I get lost in all this. Your wager was $500, they think it was $300 and that's what they demand of you. If it was me, I'd have held my tongue, handed over the $300 and been thankful that I saved $200. Why carry on? Did you think you were going to get to keep the whole $500?

One of the Wizard's 10 commandments is that gamblers should pay their debts. I agree, but if they other party can't specify the correct amount owed, well tough luck.

It seems like you wanna keep the whole $500, but are willing to pay it - ONLY if they can correctly tell you how much. I agree with that attitude.


They're never going to show you the video, so here's what you do. You offer to pay them what you owe, but only if they can correctly tell you the exact denominations and quantity of chips and cash. Tell them to call gaming to review the video. Come up with an answer, and you'll return when they call. Tell them at the meeting, you will have the correct exact amount in an envelope. If they, along with gaming, can tell you what's in the envelope, you'll give it to them. Otherwise, you'll give them nothing.

If they don't like that idea, offer to give them the $300, specifying that the correct amount is more, and do they want to reconsider?

A Casino surveillance manager who busts shot-takers taking shots himself......gotta love it.

bdc,

I'm stuck; what's FPG? Can't make the acronym parse. edit; fORTUNE Pai Gow. d'oh!

I'm one of those who, if I lost, is not going to let them push the bet back to me; I lost it. I have come around some to see the point of it, but it won't be me doing it. So take this with a grain of salt. But as I was reading I wondered how would you, as a surveillance manager, have liked having that happen in your house? That was probably the vig for most of the day she pushed back at you. Feels kind of "Golden Rule"-breaking to me, as well as bad karma, for you not to just joke it off and give them the money. If the floor doesn't see it, fine, good karma for you...but they did. Perhaps surveillance did as well and was on the verge of calling when the floor saw it. Can't believe a guy playing for a thousand a hand isn't getting that personal attention from above.

Quote: Deucekies

Although it's tacky IMO, the house has the right to demand the water from you. You did lose it after all.

Here's where I get lost in all this. Your wager was $500, they think it was $300 and that's what they demand of you. If it was me, I'd have held my tongue, handed over the $300 and been thankful that I saved $200. Why carry on? Did you think you were going to get to keep the whole $500?

+1

yes I did think I would. and it got the best of me that they didn't really have a clue as to what I wagered and they postured like they knew.

that would have been a great idea. I really wished I thought of that.

Quote: bdc42

that would have been a great idea. I really wished I thought of that.

Thought of what?

I gotta assume you're talking about my idea, since I'm the only one who provided a plan of action.

At first my thought is that you should have handed over the $300 that they asked for. After thinking about it, I am sure they would have looked at the camera and saw that it was more than $300 so they probably would have come back asking for more anyways.

We get locked in on the ohh $500 is a lot of money bla bla bla, however if you are betting $500 on every hand then it is just 1 unit so you shouldn't have put up such a stink over 1 unit. Maybe if this was BJ and you were at a 18 spread it would be different.

Maybe if you lost the hand you should just pay it.

Dan -

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. But I gotta disagree with you on this one.

Yes, bdc42 should pay, but how much?

The casino asked for repayment three times, with three different numbers. Even if bdc42 was wrong, and didn't bet $500 like he thinks, what is he, or any of us supposed to think or do when the casino can't even come up with a number and stick to it?

Quote: bdc42

... he starts in again ... and (says) if I want to make another wager here I gotta pay the lost bet.

I glossed over this point the first time around. It sounds like he's saying you can keep the money if you leave. My knee-jerk reaction is to, duh, LEAVE. But would that blacklist you at that casino or family of casinos? Probably. And that's probably something you want to avoid.

Doesn't NGC have rules specifying that casinos need enough cameras on each table so that every bet can be accurately counted? If so, this could open a whole can of worms. Personally, considering bdc42's occupation (surveillance at a different casino), that might be a can of worms he doesn't want to open. Then again, maybe it is...

Me? I'd open that can of worms.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Dan -

I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. But I gotta disagree with you on this one.

And Dave, I too have respect for you but have to disagree on this, - because the OP knew he lost right at the moment of take-and-pay, and he still didn't say "No, I lost, I didn't push, so take your winnings" - right on the spot with the hands open and without a second thought. I do this, and so do some people. You lost, and you know you lost, so you say "take your money" like a clean person and go to the next hand.

Here's his admission:

Quote: bdc42

here is the background on the hand in question.... Gold Coast Casino FPG- me betting 2 hands at $500 using chips and $100 bills. (my hand and the dragon hand, usually). I have $300 in $100 bills and $200 in green on hand A which I set. I then receive the dragon and I put out a stack of $500 all green chips. the my dragon hand is Q-9 low, with a 2-3-4-5-6 straight high side. the dealer has K-4 low with a A-2-3-4-5 straight high. ( the second highest straight, so I should lose). the dealer pushes hand A and I take my money back into my bankroll and then pushes my dragon hand (she must have been new as I believe she thought the wheel straight lost to my 6 high). as she's picking up my hand and putting it into the shuffler the floor notices the error as he is talking to the dealer I pull my wager back off the betting circle [instead of admitting it as the loss I knew it was]. The floor then backs up the cards and points out that I should lose and asks me for my bet?!!!???...

This whole thing went down as a mess because he wanted to take casino money he darn well knew wasn't his, and that was already lost. And this guy manages surveillance for a large casino. He should know instinctively that a dealer's error doesn't make "wrong money" the player's, but it was his money in this case this time. That's the real story. We saw this with Mission, and we see it here. Troubling. And calling Gaming might be a bad idea. If they see this thread of admission and the surveillance footage of a "knowing hand" pulling back the cash, there might be other questions.

Quote: bdc42

so what does the WOV think should have happened to me and by me. i'll post what actually did happen in a couple of days.

If you need the money that bad, you have no business setting foot in a casino.

The most moral action is to give them the full $500.

However, I understand the argument that scoring a hand properly is part of the game, much like the defense trying to recover a fumble is to football. If that is your position, then I would have paid the $300 when the dealer asked, or at least offered to pay the lowest amount after the video review.

To refuse to pay anything I see as taking a shot. I have to take the casino's side on this one.

Not that anyone asked, but if I were in charge, I would have given the surveillance footage my best look and given the player every benefit of the doubt in judging the bet amount.

deleted

Quote: Paigowdan

And Dave, I too have respect for you but have to disagree on this, - because the OP knew he lost.

Hmmm... OK. You do have a point.


But what if, for whatever reason, the player was distracted, the bet left as a push, the cards taken and into the shuffler before the player realized the error, and absentmindedly, he took his bet back. And then the casino figured it out and asked for it back, but asked for the wrong amount?

What then?

It would seem that the OP was trying to do the right thing and give back the correct amount, but was surprised / dumbfounded that the casino didn't specify the correct amount, or even specify, and stick with an incorrect amount.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

It would seem that the OP was trying to do the right thing and give back the correct amount, but was surprised / dumbfounded that the casino didn't specify the correct amount, or even specify, and stick with an incorrect amount.

The OP was hardly trying to do the right thing. That would have been to offer the $500 without being asked. To play the card that because surveillance can't determine the exact bet he owes nothing is hardly an act to be proud of.

What if somebody steals your wallet, mixes your money with his money, and then you realize who stole your wallet and ask for your money back. Can the thief refuse because you don't know exactly how much he took? I've seen such cases on the People's Court and the judge will generally go with the estimate of the victimized party.

That would be different. Deliberately playing dumb but knowing the deal, versus an authentic "didn't notice" situation are different.

So no, I don't think the OP did the right thing when he KNEW how much he pinched back on what he knew was his loss.

In an innocent correction case, let the floor sort it out with surveillance, and operate on the basis that it'll get done. And the casino floormen try to do what's fair, it's not their money, they are just referees who are generally a LOT more neutral than gamblers who'll only see and believe what they want to see and believe.

I will say this board has become "Petty Larceny Confession City," and that this is actually refreshing. From this thread, and with Mission's situation, it's amazing the trail of pain and aggravation caused by a moment's deceit or dishonesty. Nothing can sometimes cost as much as a free lunch attempt.

Quote: Paigowdan

I will say this board has become "Petty Larceny Confession City," and that this is actually refreshing. From this thread, and with Mission's situation, it's amazing the trail of pain and aggravation caused by a moment's deceit or dishonesty. Nothing can sometimes cost as much as a free lunch attempt.

I really do not feel that it is fair to compare this to what Mission did. In this case he lost a bet and he should pay. Mission was trying to collect on what the casino would be giving out anyways. I won't say what mission did was 100% right, but not in the same category IMO as this play.

As much as I can't stand to admit it, I'm going to agree with Paigowdan on this.

Quote: VCUSkyhawk

I really do not feel that it is fair to compare this to what Mission did. In this case he lost a bet and he should pay. Mission was trying to collect on what the casino would be giving out anyways. I won't say what mission did was 100% right, but not in the same category IMO as this play.

Any attempt to take was isn't yours or is earned is the issue and source of pain in so many cases.

Sometimes I am just amazed of the trail of aggravation from a moment's greed.
We're talking:
A moment to honestly say to the dealer: "You won, take it."

And a moment to slip in my player's card on a big machine and let the comp account accumulate on someone else's action.

trails of annoyance and pain stemming from a quick, greedy slick-ass action or so thought. The devil laughs. If never done, it'll never have consequences like this. I believe that in the end, we don't get away with squat except the good works.

Quote: Paigowdan

The devil laughs.

This made me laugh. I believe that Satan is probably up to alot more serious f*ckery (as Stephen King puts it) that putting people up to advantage play.

Quote: VCUSkyhawk

This made me laugh. I believe that Satan is probably up to alot more serious f*ckery (as Stephen King puts it) that putting people up to advantage play.

I'd agree, watching the world through CNN: Syria, ISIS, beheading Infidels and all that. But he takes all action. Cantor Gaming don't have #$%^ on him.

My take on this is that if they ask for the money right away (before the next hand is dealt) I will repay them. I'm not volunteering any extra info though. I would have given them the $300. I've repaid dealer mistakes in this situation before.

If they come back later (after the next hand is underway), forget it. It's classless of them to even ask at that point, IMO. It's over; they screwed up; they can pay for their mistake. Maybe that $500 would have been my loss limit.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

If they come back later (after the next hand is underway), forget it. It's classless of them to even ask at that point, IMO. It's over; they screwed up; they can pay for their mistake. Maybe that $500 would have been my loss limit.

Have you been in this situation before and done this? What was their response? "Ok, you're right", or "Cough it up or get out"?

PS: I agree with you. Once the hand is over, no rewind. But I do know casinos do this sometimes.

Do casinos run on player rules? I don't think so.
I've seen five hands pass, with floor supervisors alerting a player of a debt.
Say no, goodnight.

Quote: Deucekies

Have you been in this situation before and done this? What was their response? "Ok, you're right", or "Cough it up or get out"?

PS: I agree with you. Once the hand is over, no rewind. But I do know casinos do this sometimes.

It's never happened to me. There have been ones that I just know that surveillance has seen, too (due to a few factors, I'm pretty sure that surveillance was watching the table, and it was just too obvious to miss). I suspect that it is this casino's policy to not ask for bets back in this situation. You are going to risk losing a customer who comes and gambles with tens of thousands of dollar for a weekend for a single bet over a few hundred dollars? They are smarter than that, I think. Doing something like that would be penny wise, pound foolish. They give me thousands in freeplay for my play, but they are going to kick me out over a few hundred? They are not that dumb.

I think that it is crazy that (in the OP) they let it get to that point for a single bet. Here you have a player rated at $1000 per hand. You are really going to run him off over what you think is $300? How many $1000/hand players does this casino have? Business must be damned good if they are willing to lose a customer like this! What a terrible pit boss.

Agree. You want to keep money players. If they took the view that the OP was just heated up over it and not really a shot taker, they may have been more gracious.

Axiom -

You're absolutely right. It IS pretty stupid to bust the big player's chops over a single bet.

But the casino already made that decision - and screwed it up.

So the question is, how do we resolve it? How much should the OP pay, if anything?

" I pull my wager back off the betting circle [instead of admitting it as the loss I knew it was]. " Can anybody spell T H I E F !

DJ yes your idea would have been perfect. of course they might have said,"Well you are going to put some odd random number in there that you didn't bet" but still I like you idea.

I can spell thief, but once the dealer pushes my hand and picks up the cards, I feel the money is mine again. just how I feel. the house pays the dealer and if they make an error I shouldn't have to correct the error. I do take exception to the term thief... I definitely have a code of ethics and I don't believe picking up my wager after the dealer pushed the hand and put the cards in the shuffler would qualify as thievery.

Quote: Paigowdan

Agree. You want to keep money players. If they took the view that the OP was just heated up over it and not really a shot taker, they may have been more gracious.

ok PG Dan ( I mean holier than thou Dan). at exactly what point did I cross the line? if lets say I have an obvious hand of 10's and K's with 3 small cards and I accidently put K-10 low and K-10 high an absolute honest error as nobody would play the hand this way and the dealer has K-Q low with 2's high and not only do they not push my hand, but take my wager saying I should set my hand properly. I made an honest mistake and paid the price why shouldn't the Casino be held to the same standard. (by the way this was a real situational hand in my home state Casino, in Washington). I fail to see how the house is allowed to make an error, then say whoa... it was an honest mistake by the dealer and I am not allowed the same grace. so if the house has made an error in my favor I (without any cajoling on my part) I should keep the error. The Casino should hire better dealers IMHO or pay the price of a bad dealer costing the place money.

my states NGIC's (Washington state) state that we must have 1 PTZ camera per two BJ games and 1 on each carnival game. the quality of the coverage is never mentioned only that all card values must be verifiable. 2 cameras on roulette and 3 on craps. (2 fixed and a PTZ). if surveillance or the Pit deemed action worthy I'm sure they could pull a camera off a dead table or one of the many PTZ that shoot the floor.

Quote: bdc42

here is the background on the hand in question.... Gold Coast Casino FPG- me betting 2 hands at $500 using chips and $100 bills. (my hand and the dragon hand, usually). I have $300 in $100 bills and $200 in green on hand A which I set. I then receive the dragon and I put out a stack of $500 all green chips. the my dragon hand is Q-9 low, with a 2-3-4-5-6 straight high side. the dealer has K-4 low with a A-2-3-4-5 straight high. ( the second highest straight, so I should lose). the dealer pushes hand A and I take my money back into my bankroll and then pushes my dragon hand (she must have been new as I believe she thought the wheel straight lost to my 6 high). as she's picking up my hand and putting it into the shuffler the floor notices the error as he is talking to the dealer I pull my wager back off the betting circle. the floor then backs up the cards and points out that I should lose and asks me for my bet?!!!???...

what transpires next is my question:
the floor asks me for me to give him $300 bet, he first asked the dealer and since she never proved my hand A wager or my dragon bet, she doesn't know how much and guesses $300. now if they would have said you owe us $500, I would have paid. I am a "advantage player" in that I never cheat, but I feel it's the dealer's job to pay and take correctly and if they make an error, well that's the price of doing business. I know not everyone holds that value of ethics but I think its fair.

I now tell the floor that I didn't have $300 wagered. he calls surveillance (as a side note I'm a surveillance manager in a fairly large Casino (bigger than GC) and he comes back with surveillance said you had $400 bet. I then call BS on the guy and say you guys have no idea what I had bet. we argue for about 10 minutes back and forth and then he calls the shift manager. he calls surveillance and comes back with yet another different # that I had wagered and said they could tell because she broke the bet down the hand before, which was a lie she hadn't broken down a wager of mine in 3 hands. now the table has been dead for 25 minutes and he starts accusing me of cruising the casino and taking shots. I'm getting more and more upset (another side note is that on this trip I was killing GC up about 10k on FPG, Sports, BJ and Craps) but that is regardless. he starts in again how I'm "cheating" his casino and if I want to make another wager here I gotta pay the lost bet.

I can guarantee that they cannot tell my wager from the camera view, I'm sure that they only have an overhead shot and it's impossible to tell a chip stack from that vantage point. and you need that view to read the cards, but unless someone takes a second camera over and views the wagers, you just have no idea 1 chip looks the same as a stack of 20. so what does the WOV think should have happened to me and by me. i'll post what actually did happen in a couple of days.

OK here is what happened : I argued with the shift and shut the game down for 30 minutes or so and I DID give back the $500. stormed off to another Casino and came back. I stayed another 2 nights there and when I was getting ready to leave I called and asked if I could have my food, movies drink comped. the desk said I had to talk to the shift manager. Guess who it was, the same guy I fought so hard with. he came to the pit and talked with the floor and then came to talk with me, and I swear to God this next part is true, the dealer is paying my Push just as he's standing there talking with me about my comp. in fairness he was really professional and handled me very well but he didn't catch the dealer error. it was hilarious to me later, at the time I was actually a little nervous when he was paying me. and one side note is that they wouldn't let me play cash anymore.

The correct action would be to pay the $500, no questions asked. You knowing how to set the hand is the rule of the game. Blackjack won't give you back the money for hitting a 20 and getting a 3, just as much as Pai Gow won't give you back money for not playing the house way or missetting a hand.

A Play was made, you lost, and nowhere in the rule book does it say that you should return back part of your bet. That said, as the pit, there's a couple of ways I might have handled it differently: first I might have let it slide if you're a regular player and just remember that there will be an opportunity when you mis-set a hand to take your money later. Secondly, i might have gone with the $300 and left it there, and if the camera went upstairs I would have responded with the truth that we don't know how much you bet but it was at least $300.

I didn't pull the money (it was a stack of green) until the hand was pushed and cards taken off the table. how long do I have to wait? 4 hands 20 minutes . is it my job to do the dealer's job? no really is it my job? the dealer doesn't tell me when to hit and stay at BJ. my knowledge of whether I won or lost has zero bearing on the dealer's knowledge. and the fact you imply I did anything that isn't above ground is troubling. I am in no way responsible for a dealer error. I was willing to give the wager back if they could tell me how much I bet. again I feel I did nothing wrong in asking that question. I know how much I wagered, but what if I didn't? does that absolve the Casino to just randomly give out a number. what if I wagered $300 and they demanded $500 back and I'm too drunk to know any better and give them the money. what does that make the Casino .... oh yeah wait for it, dishonest thieves. they should be able to tell me how much I wagered, and correctly, if they want their money back.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Axiom -

You're absolutely right. It IS pretty stupid to bust the big player's chops over a single bet.

But the casino already made that decision - and screwed it up.

So the question is, how do we resolve it? How much should the OP pay, if anything?

As I said, if it were me, I would have paid the $300 as requested. Had there been another hand dealt in between I would have refused.

If the state that he is in doesn't legally require him to pay it back, then, if he chooses not to, that is his choice. It's not the choice that I would make but it's up to him.

Quote: bdc42

... and I DID give back the $500.

Well, I'm glad about that. Do the right thing and all. It occurs to me that another course of action could have been taken. When they came back with the second wrong number, tell them it's still wrong, pay the $300, and do my offer to pay the right amount if they can figure it out. Get a gaming guy to look at the video. Etc.

Quote: bdc42

... asked if I could have my food, movies drink comped. the desk said I had to talk to the shift manager. Guess who it was, the same guy I fought so hard with.

So did you get the comp?

Quote: bdc42

and I swear to God this next part is true, the dealer is paying my Push just as he's standing there talking with me about my comp. in fairness he was really professional and handled me very well but he didn't catch the dealer error. it was hilarious to me later, at the time I was actually a little nervous when he was paying me.

Incredible! Maybe it was a test? Did you pay that one back?

Quote: bdc42

one side note is that they wouldn't let me play cash anymore.

To be honest, I'm surprised any casino lets anyone play with cash. I would think it's very hard for surveillance to verify a bet of stacked bills. And maybe that's part of the reason they couldn't figure out what the original bet was...

I've seen cash allowed to be wagered at the blackjack table in Vegas. It's called "money plays" and that's what the dealer calls out. It's only allowed once when a new player comes to the table. After that hand the cash must be converted to chips if the player wishes to continue.

Quote: bdc42

ok PG Dan ( I mean holier than thou Dan). at exactly what point did I cross the line?

When you pulled your bet back knowing damn well it lost.
This wasn't an honest mistake, it was a deliberate act of deceit to take something that wasn't yours.
It was the house's money when it lost, and you knew that working in casino surveillance, and you still tried to take it back.

Quote: bdc42

I didn't pull the money (it was a stack of green) until the hand was pushed and cards taken off the table. how long do I have to wait?

You didn't have to wait at all. You knew the situation, and should have said, "I lost, take your money," and be done with it.

Quote: bdc42

is it my job to do the dealer's job? no really is it my job?

No. But it is your job to not take money that you know damn well isn't yours. That's everyone's job. It's your job not to argue with floor supervision after they check with surveillance that you had lost, only to lie and argue about it, and when you know for a fact that they're correct.
As surveillance, You tell floor supervision to enforce the correct play, the actual result of the cards, and you expect them and the players to say, "Yeah, that is true." This is why it was both a pointless scene there, and here. You kept on trying to get away with a petty scam you shouldn't have, when you should have let go.

Quote: bdc42

the dealer doesn't tell me when to hit and stay at BJ.

This isn't BJ. For that matter, the dealer doesn't tell you how to set the hand in PGP.

Quote: bdc42

my knowledge of whether I won or lost has zero bearing on the dealer's knowledge.

That is correct. Only you knew damn well you lost at the time, and you acted on this knowledge to try for money you knew wasn't yours and that you had lost.

Quote: bdc42

I am in no way responsible for a dealer error.

No, but you were responsible for your actions when you knew the truth of the situation.

Quote: bdc42

I was willing to give the wager back if they could tell me how much I bet.

Yeah, but you were also absolutely unwilling to admit and surrender the money that you knew you lost - when presented with an opportunity to grab the cash and make a stash. Devil 1, Jesus 0.

Quote: bdc42

again I feel I did nothing wrong in asking that question.

We can see that.

Quote: bdc42

I know how much I wagered, but what if I didn't?

Then that would be different. You would be innocent of trying to pull one off, instead of guilty of trying to pull one off, because you knew.

Quote: bdc42

does that absolve the Casino to just randomly give out a number.

But the casino did not try to give out a random number; they called surveillance in good faith to try to determine the amount to the best of their ability.

Quote: bdc42

what if I wagered $300 and they demanded $500 back and I'm too drunk to know any better and give them the money. what does that make the Casino .... oh yeah wait for it, dishonest thieves.

Only if they knew different, - as you had. There are no innocent thieves. You can be only innocently mistaken, or knowledgably deceitful. There is no other scenario. Which one is it?

Quote: bdc42

they should be able to tell me how much I wagered, and correctly, if they want their money back.

Really?
Are you telling us if the casino does not know of a scam or error at the time, then the casino doesn't deserve the money? They do try, as the dealer made an error that was caught. Let me ask you, when you're working surveillance, and you spot a dealer's error of $500 on a pushed play that actually lost for the player, do you say "Ah, let the player keep it because the dealer didn't notice, and I'm not 100% sure of the exact amount...." or would you notify the floor and have them inform the dealer and player, and ask the player for the money, and to ask how much it was.
I think you'd call the floor, and ask for the money back, and to ask the player for the amount bet if needed. This is where a problem may happen, all because of our inner propensity for petty dishonesty when it serves us.

I did get the comp, and like I said he was a perfect gentleman about the whole situation. my play easily covered my expenses. it wasn't a test, the guy was just BS'ing and made a mistake. but the irony of it all and the shift walking up to the table at that exact moment was priceless. no I did not pay back that payout. I play a lot of pai-gow and dealer errors, especially in LV, are rare. well under 1-2000. and the fact it happened when the guy showed up was incredible.

the funny thing was after the incident, all the BOYD properties (I only went to the Orleans other than GC) took away the cash play for me. I guess I deserved it. The casino's appreciate cash play so they don't have to be taxed on the drop if the player wins. that's why most floor supervisors really frown upon "the false drops".

Quote: bdc42

The casino's appreciate cash play so they don't have to be taxed on the drop if the player wins. that's why most floor supervisors really frown upon "the false drops".

And this is why "cash plays" is now illegal in most jurisdictions. The casino appreciates it, the state doesn't.