6:5 BJ---will competition kill it?
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| | 11 votes (26.82%) |
41 members have voted
September 2nd, 2010 at 6:44:42 PM
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It's hard to tell just how many people shy away from 6:5 tables, but it's obvious that many people happily play at them (ande those people VOTE...and REPRODUCE...*shudder*). But Vegas casinos are going down for the third time. How long before someone breaks ranks and removes their 6:5 donkeykillers? Would any major casino do this voluntarily?
I think it would be a VERY smart move for any given major Strip casino to do this; then they could scream it to the rooftops that they had "the best blackjack on the Strip!!!!!". What would REALLY be radical is to bring back 3:2 with single deck or double deck. The casinos somehow managed to make money, years ago, when such games were widespread. If one casino (chain) did this, there would be a domino effect, as even the turista stupidos would begin to dimly realize that the 3:2 games were a much better deal. Of course, we could still have some 6:5 games for those who would rather get paid $12 than $15.
I think it would be a VERY smart move for any given major Strip casino to do this; then they could scream it to the rooftops that they had "the best blackjack on the Strip!!!!!". What would REALLY be radical is to bring back 3:2 with single deck or double deck. The casinos somehow managed to make money, years ago, when such games were widespread. If one casino (chain) did this, there would be a domino effect, as even the turista stupidos would begin to dimly realize that the 3:2 games were a much better deal. Of course, we could still have some 6:5 games for those who would rather get paid $12 than $15.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 2nd, 2010 at 6:54:24 PM
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Quote: mkl654321The casinos somehow managed to make money, years ago, when such games were widespread.
Only because they cheated all of the players all the time. ;)
September 2nd, 2010 at 7:02:15 PM
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As evidenced by the $1 Blackjack at the Sahara - which pay even money, the casinos will not stop if there is demand. I think that blackjack is much like shopping at this point - the knowledgeable consumer will not pay "full price" with even money or 6:5 crapjack, and instead seek out the 3:2 tables.
Trump Marina in AC recently had 2 $1 blackjack tables with the .25 ante opened. They are doing gangbuster business right now, with Trump quoted that their standard 3:2 table makes about 950 a day, while these $1 tables are making between 1100-1500 a day. They are petitioning NJ gaming to add a 3rd table. People will happily pay $12.50 an hour to the house so they only have to pony up $40 for a night of blackjack.
-B
Trump Marina in AC recently had 2 $1 blackjack tables with the .25 ante opened. They are doing gangbuster business right now, with Trump quoted that their standard 3:2 table makes about 950 a day, while these $1 tables are making between 1100-1500 a day. They are petitioning NJ gaming to add a 3rd table. People will happily pay $12.50 an hour to the house so they only have to pony up $40 for a night of blackjack.
-B
September 2nd, 2010 at 7:08:58 PM
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I have a question about the even-money blackjack at the Sahara. Apparently you receive a one-dollar voucher for free slot play for each blackjack you hit -- even if you're only betting $1/hand. So that's actually something like 1:1 blackjack. Of course, you won't get all the money back out of the machines, but let's say you play video poker or another decent game. What does this make the house edge?
September 2nd, 2010 at 7:17:31 PM
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Quote: mkl654321It's hard to tell just how many people shy away from 6:5 tables, but it's obvious that many people happily play at them (ande those people VOTE...and REPRODUCE...*shudder*). But Vegas casinos are going down for the third time. How long before someone breaks ranks and removes their 6:5 donkeykillers? Would any major casino do this voluntarily?
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It is here to stay. Few people are at the level of awareness as we are here but most here don't realize that--like McGovern supporters who couldn't believe he lost because "everyone they knew voted for him." Except we are smart!
Anyhow, I see it dealing Monte Carlo Nights. People don't understand let alone care they are getting ripped off. Same thing as Big 6/8 bets the attitude is "it is such a small amount, how much difference can it make--look at the hot cocktail waitress! I'll play here!"
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
September 2nd, 2010 at 8:19:05 PM
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Quote: nyuhoosierI have a question about the even-money blackjack at the Sahara. Apparently you receive a one-dollar voucher for free slot play for each blackjack you hit -- even if you're only betting $1/hand. So that's actually something like 1:1 blackjack. Of course, you won't get all the money back out of the machines, but let's say you play video poker or another decent game. What does this make the house edge?
That's kind of interesting. Assume a minimum $1 bet. You get a BJ roughly every 21 hands (I assume that is a shoe game), so you are losing 0.5 bets every 21 hands (vs. 3:2)--that's about 2.6 percent. The game itself is probably -0.7%, so that's -3.3% EV for the player, but then you get back $1 every 21 hands--that's almost 5% back in your pocket, since if you can play the vouchers on VP, you figure to get back 97 or 98%! Wow! A highly positive game for the ultra-low roller!
I wonder how long THAT is going to last--people will be crawling out of their dumpsters to play!
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 2nd, 2010 at 8:45:57 PM
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I think you just get the voucher, no cash. Is that correct, nyuhoosier? If you get 1:1 plus the voucher then, you're right, it's a positive E.V. game.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 2nd, 2010 at 10:01:59 PM
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It won't go away. The casinos are scared, and rightfully so, of legions of gamblers educated by The Wizard. A casino can't make money with educated gamblers at a $5, or maybe even a $10 table, with good rules. Sure they make money, but not enough to justify free booze, paying the dealer, paying the lights, paying the insurance, etc etc. The casinos are not in business to offer a fun public service. They are there to make money.
It's like a restaurant that finally raises the price of a menu item. They know it will prevent some customers from buying that item again, but they just can't afford to sell it at the lower price, no matter how many they sell. "We're sorry, but we HAD to raise the price."
It's like a restaurant that finally raises the price of a menu item. They know it will prevent some customers from buying that item again, but they just can't afford to sell it at the lower price, no matter how many they sell. "We're sorry, but we HAD to raise the price."
September 2nd, 2010 at 10:14:19 PM
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Quote: mkl654321How long before someone breaks ranks and removes their 6:5 donkeykillers? Would any major casino do this voluntarily?
Correct me if I'm wrong, as always, but I think the Venetian/Palazzo has 100% 3-2 blackjack. Same with the M.
Regarding the general question, the Strip casinos argue that a $5-$10 minimum 3-2 table is not profitable enough to keep on the floor. To play the devil's advocate, they would say the public is better served by giving the $5-$10 blackjack player something to play, rather than start all their blackjack tables at a $25 minimum. Furthermore, they would argue that even 6-5 blackjack is a better bet than most other games.
While those are valid points, I think the Vegas casinos are abusing it, and are trying to gradually phase more and more tables to 6-5. That kind of greed is killing the city.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 2nd, 2010 at 10:37:03 PM
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Quote: WizardCorrect me if I'm wrong, as always, but I think the Venetian/Palazzo has 100% 3-2 blackjack. Same with the M.
Regarding the general question, the Strip casinos argue that a $5-$10 minimum 3-2 table is not profitable enough to keep on the floor. To play the devil's advocate, they would say the public is better served by giving the $5-$10 blackjack player something to play, rather than start all their blackjack tables at a $25 minimum. Furthermore, they would argue that even 6-5 blackjack is a better bet than most other games.
While those are valid points, I think the Vegas casinos are abusing it, and are trying to gradually phase more and more tables to 6-5. That kind of greed is killing the city.
Well, yeah, but those tables are $100 minimum or something like that. I'd love to see a major Strip casino offer games no worse than, say, the Strip rules double deck at the Flaming O that existed several years ago---it was $5 minimum.
I have a VERY hard time believing that a low-limit 3:2 table isn't profitable "enough". 3:2 was the only kind of game available in Vegas for sixty years. I do believe the casinos made money on the game. The Horseshoe dealt $1 and $2 single deck all day and all night. They managed to stay open.
I agree that a perfect basic strategy player won't be worth the casino's while at a 3:2 game, but out of 100 tourists, maybe ONE plays accurate basic strategy. Just spend five minutes at any table and watch people stand on 15 against a 10, hit 14 against a 4, and double down on A9. The casinos made fortunes dealing 3:2; yes, they make even more dealing 6:5, but the long-term effect is to slaughter even the ploppies. A successful parasite does NOT kill its host.
There seems to be a number casinos aim at for card-based table games: a house advantage of 2-2.5 percent. This apparently makes money at a sufficient rate without absolutely slaughtering the players in the process. But the 2.3 percent house advantage at 6:5 shoe BJ isn't fixed, because of the skill factor. Anybody not playing perfect basic strategy would be fighting more like a 4% -EV. This moves the game into the mass slaughter zone.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 2nd, 2010 at 11:12:54 PM
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There have been more and more casinos that are moving away from BJ tables to adding poker-based table games, because as they put it, it's what the players want. To a degree they are right, but at some of the midwest casinos especially, the feeling in the pit is that there are no longer enough BJ tables to satisfy the masses. This drives table mins up higher and higher, so a new West Virginia casino an hour away from Washington D.C. can offer $50 min tables across the entire floor. Even up in Chicago you will be hard pressed to find a table min less than $15 on a weekend evening.
That being said, what difference does it make if BJ gets paid 6:5 to the casino? Many players don't complain vocally, pit staff and dealers are looking out for their own jobs, and the operators are looking at the bottom line. Luckilly, the 6:5 BJ tables that surfaced in the midwest (namely Kansas City) bombed on 6-deck tables. They still offer Single deck 6:5, but Double-deck is still 3:2 most everywhere.
There is nowhere like Vegas, as far as spectacles, shopping, restaurants, nightlife and hotels all wrapped into one package. Unfortunately, when gamblers across the country (and it is soon going to be offered in every state I'm sure) can play better games at their home casinos, Vegas loses its appeal as a gambling destination. Sure it's fun to gamble in Vegas; I did plenty in February. But I rarely played BJ, and especially not at Harrah's casinos.
I really don't have an answer to the poll question. Part of me says 6:5 will become the norm, and part of me says Vegas will wise up and get rid of it, for the reasons stated above.
That being said, what difference does it make if BJ gets paid 6:5 to the casino? Many players don't complain vocally, pit staff and dealers are looking out for their own jobs, and the operators are looking at the bottom line. Luckilly, the 6:5 BJ tables that surfaced in the midwest (namely Kansas City) bombed on 6-deck tables. They still offer Single deck 6:5, but Double-deck is still 3:2 most everywhere.
There is nowhere like Vegas, as far as spectacles, shopping, restaurants, nightlife and hotels all wrapped into one package. Unfortunately, when gamblers across the country (and it is soon going to be offered in every state I'm sure) can play better games at their home casinos, Vegas loses its appeal as a gambling destination. Sure it's fun to gamble in Vegas; I did plenty in February. But I rarely played BJ, and especially not at Harrah's casinos.
I really don't have an answer to the poll question. Part of me says 6:5 will become the norm, and part of me says Vegas will wise up and get rid of it, for the reasons stated above.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
September 2nd, 2010 at 11:22:52 PM
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I always wonder why north american players all bitch about 6:5 over 3:2 but gladly play 00 roulette when 0 should be played.
September 2nd, 2010 at 11:40:41 PM
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Quote: appistappisI always wonder why north american players all bitch about 6:5 over 3:2 but gladly play 00 roulette when 0 should be played.
If you had spent any time in North America, you would know that there are about three single-zero roulette wheels on the entire continent. As far as "bitching" or "gladly playing", though, roulette isn't a very popular game in America; the houae edge is prohibitive because of the double zero, but it's also a pretty mindless game.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 3rd, 2010 at 3:25:18 AM
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There is a difference between The Steak and The Sizzle.
Restaurants and Casinos have to sell each item, but its a matter of degree and emphasis.
Even though most of us would prefer fine food to an emphasis on ambiance, some restaurants go for the ambiance.
Casinos were perfectly able to sell 6:5 Blackjack, they even put it in two-foot high letters on their marquee! Customers will play what is offered. Many of those customers will be ignorant. Some will grumble. A very few of them will vote with their feet and find a casino that still offers 3:2 blackjack. Overall, a casino can easily "sell" its 6:5 games to the public.
Yes, Sahara has a number of these one dollar offerings: Dollar Shot and Glass; Dollar Hot Dog; Dollar Blackjack. Anyone going to various Party Pits knows that they are paying for those skimpy uniforms and pole dancing. I guess most who go to Party Pits don't really care much about 6:5 or 3:2. Heck, they don't really care about 21, they care more about 38. Whatever you say about the 6:5 or 1:1 payouts in the party pit its obvious there is a market for it.
Is there a market for 3:2? Of course. Even a Sweat The Money grind-joint such as South Point can pride itself on only 3:2 with nary a 6:5 anywhere in sight. South Point is not closing its doors or shutting down its BlackJack tables!
Vegas will gripe about low profitability of its tables, but if casinos really and truly had to offer decent 3:2 payouts ... they could do it. They simply don't want to because it is sufficiently profitable to lose a teensy few dedicated blackjack players but keep the 6:5 tables and keep the advertising programs that bray about such games.
Restaurants and Casinos have to sell each item, but its a matter of degree and emphasis.
Even though most of us would prefer fine food to an emphasis on ambiance, some restaurants go for the ambiance.
Casinos were perfectly able to sell 6:5 Blackjack, they even put it in two-foot high letters on their marquee! Customers will play what is offered. Many of those customers will be ignorant. Some will grumble. A very few of them will vote with their feet and find a casino that still offers 3:2 blackjack. Overall, a casino can easily "sell" its 6:5 games to the public.
Yes, Sahara has a number of these one dollar offerings: Dollar Shot and Glass; Dollar Hot Dog; Dollar Blackjack. Anyone going to various Party Pits knows that they are paying for those skimpy uniforms and pole dancing. I guess most who go to Party Pits don't really care much about 6:5 or 3:2. Heck, they don't really care about 21, they care more about 38. Whatever you say about the 6:5 or 1:1 payouts in the party pit its obvious there is a market for it.
Is there a market for 3:2? Of course. Even a Sweat The Money grind-joint such as South Point can pride itself on only 3:2 with nary a 6:5 anywhere in sight. South Point is not closing its doors or shutting down its BlackJack tables!
Vegas will gripe about low profitability of its tables, but if casinos really and truly had to offer decent 3:2 payouts ... they could do it. They simply don't want to because it is sufficiently profitable to lose a teensy few dedicated blackjack players but keep the 6:5 tables and keep the advertising programs that bray about such games.
September 3rd, 2010 at 5:08:23 AM
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I think you need to get out more. There ARE single zero tables. Not a lot, but they are out there - and NOT only in the high limit room.Quote: mkl654321If you had spent any time in North America, you would know that there are about three single-zero roulette wheels on the entire continent....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 3rd, 2010 at 6:54:58 AM
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I am just saying that we gamblers have to be realistic in our expectations. To further the restaurant analogy, you can't be upset with Big Boy Hamburgers for charging $7 for a burger now, even though "the burgers use to sell for $3 and they made money off of them at that price didn't they?" Sure I want to be able to still buy a $3 burger. Lots of people would flock to a place that sold a good $3 burger, but the restaurant can't make money doing it, regardless of volume.
September 3rd, 2010 at 7:11:17 AM
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True. Though realism goes both ways. We know when we order from the Dollar Menu at a fast food joint that we are aiding the franchiser to force that franchisee to provide an item on which he makes an insufficient profit, yet we take advantage of what is a bargain to us. We know when we ride on a really supercheap ticket that the airline can not really fly us safely at that price, but we do it anyway and trust to our luck. So sure, we don't really think that the price of a bet on the PassLine should be immune from inflation, but that doesn't stop us from wanting to take advantage of the low prices that we want to be available and that are in fact available in some struggling casinos.Quote: BigTipI am just saying that we gamblers have to be realistic in our expectations.
Realistically, the casinos made a mistake in going after the lower ends of the market, but as long as there is no requirement that we arrive in Top Hat and Tails and wearing white gloves, we are not going to do so. If casinos are desperate enough to offer low minimums sometimes we are going to try to force them to stretch it a bit.
September 3rd, 2010 at 7:17:05 AM
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I think there could be a Single Zero Wheel and a Double Zero Wheel five feet distant from each other... and players would not even notice much less care.Quote: DJTeddyBearThere ARE single zero tables. Not a lot, but they are out there -
One man from the UK came to risk his entire life's savings on one spin of a roulette wheel. The table was roped off, the event was filmed, the man's friends were with him but behind the ropes. A casino executive came out and made an on-camera speech about normally we would not allow this but since you are determined to risk your entire life's savings blah, blah, blah. Then the spin was done.. and the man did actually win though it was fairly apparent he didn't quite know how to play roulette. Of course this was a double zero wheel but he probably didn't even know what that meant.
September 3rd, 2010 at 7:24:20 AM
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You're absolutely right, of course, but I just wanted to point out that they ARE out there.Quote: FleaStiffI think there could be a Single Zero Wheel and a Double Zero Wheel five feet distant from each other... and players would not even notice much less care.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 3rd, 2010 at 7:55:05 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffI think there could be a Single Zero Wheel and a Double Zero Wheel five feet distant from each other... and players would not even notice much less care.
.
This is a given.
I was playing blackjack at Monte Carlo on a $10 S17 table that was right next to a $10 H17 table. My table had three players. The bad table was full. I looked at the dealer and said, "Does this not amaze you?" She said, "There are a lot of stupid people in this world." I laughed pretty hard at that.
September 3rd, 2010 at 7:55:08 AM
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I am the only one so far to vote that Harrah's will start paying even money on blackjacks. Maybe they will start giving out 1:1 and a piece of candy, or the dealer does a little dance when you get a snapper -- it certainly wouldn't suprise me, and their customers will probably think it's fun. (Harrah's is the PARTY casino!!) Harrah's has been at the leading edge of bilking the customer for years -- if you look at their hold percentages in Atlantic City (the only jurisdiction that breaks down revenue), their table game percentages have been steadily increasing for month after month. Their desired house edge on tables is around 5%. Harrah's Resort AC is the best example of this -- tons of 3-card with the 7% H.E. Pair Plus payout, only ONE Spanish 21 table with the good rules, all H17 BJ, and only ONE pai gow tiles table (all other casinos have at least two).
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Somebody is going to have to take these MF's on, and it is going to have to be a coordinated advertising campaign, as someone suggested. If Harrah's can trumpet their "no resort fees," another casino can publicize all 3:2 blackjack. I don't think the Venetian will do this, because they don't want to seem cheap/publican, but I can definitely see Boyd or Palms doing it. Perhaps a billboard with a photo of the Wizard giving a thumbs-up and a grin saying, "The Palms has the best blackjack in Las Vegas!"
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Somebody is going to have to take these MF's on, and it is going to have to be a coordinated advertising campaign, as someone suggested. If Harrah's can trumpet their "no resort fees," another casino can publicize all 3:2 blackjack. I don't think the Venetian will do this, because they don't want to seem cheap/publican, but I can definitely see Boyd or Palms doing it. Perhaps a billboard with a photo of the Wizard giving a thumbs-up and a grin saying, "The Palms has the best blackjack in Las Vegas!"
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 3rd, 2010 at 8:11:15 AM
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Quote: teddysI am the only one so far to vote that Harrah's will start paying even money on blackjacks.
I think this is a given too. I wanted to vote for both things, but I figured that was a sardonic question included for humor's sake.
1:1 has been used in party pits already, has it not? I'm pretty sure I saw it at the bikini pit in front of that club at Rio. That's how the 6/5 double deck started. The ploppies are paying for "entertainment" without a problem and some suit decides to give it a shot at a regular pit. "Wow! Look at those idiots. They're STILL playing. Let's try 6/5 in an eight deck shoe now."
And that's why I saw an eight deck shoe game paying 6/5 at Bill's. Incredible.
September 3rd, 2010 at 8:56:56 AM
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Quote: mkl654321Well, yeah, but those (Venetian) tables are $100 minimum or something like that.
The Venetian has 3-2 blackjack at a $15 minimum. The full rules are 8 decks, dealer hits soft 17, double after split, surrender allowed, re-splitting aces allowed. House edge of 0.57%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 3rd, 2010 at 10:17:13 AM
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regarding high minimums I saw a Pai Gow Tiles game @ the palazzo, it had maybe one empty seat, $500 minimum! Harrah's and Paris have pai gow tiles for $15 now, MGM was $25.
September 3rd, 2010 at 10:19:20 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffI think there could be a Single Zero Wheel and a Double Zero Wheel five feet distant from each other... and players would not even notice much less care.
One man from the UK came to risk his entire life's savings on one spin of a roulette wheel. The table was roped off, the event was filmed, the man's friends were with him but behind the ropes. A casino executive came out and made an on-camera speech about normally we would not allow this but since you are determined to risk your entire life's savings blah, blah, blah. Then the spin was done.. and the man did actually win though it was fairly apparent he didn't quite know how to play roulette. Of course this was a double zero wheel but he probably didn't even know what that meant.
He had played poker and roulette, and he asked to play a single-zero or fair wheel with blocked off zero's. The casino said either this wheel or we don't let you film it. His spin was 'only' around $135,000, but he hit his red 7 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Revell
In the UK we only have single zero wheels, and having watched the show, he certainly knew the odds. He was almost certainly getting a nice fee from the TV channel, so I didn't worry too much about him selling all his clothes and possessions for the bet.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
September 3rd, 2010 at 10:51:17 AM
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I don't understand why people hold such disdain for people who play games poorly or who don't care about the odds. If someone is having a good time, why is it anyone's business how they choose to spend their time and money? Do you tell the guy who spends $300 on a bottle of wine at a restaurant that he could have bought it for $60 from a wholesaler?
Not to mention that it's bad players who subsidize good games and good promotions that make it possible to find player friendly opportunities.
Not to mention that it's bad players who subsidize good games and good promotions that make it possible to find player friendly opportunities.
September 3rd, 2010 at 11:05:47 AM
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Quote: SolidAUDo you tell the guy who spends $300 on a bottle of wine at a restaurant that he could have bought it for $60 from a wholesaler?
It depends. If he wants that wine to go with that meal, then no. If he just wants that wine, then yes.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 3rd, 2010 at 11:19:55 AM
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Quote: SolidAUI don't understand why people hold such disdain for people who play games poorly or who don't care about the odds. If someone is having a good time, why is it anyone's business how they choose to spend their time and money? Do you tell the guy who spends $300 on a bottle of wine at a restaurant that he could have bought it for $60 from a wholesaler?
Not to mention that it's bad players who subsidize good games and good promotions that make it possible to find player friendly opportunities.
I suppose it's because it takes so little time and effort to learn to play casino games decently, and to select the best games. Particularly, if you're either a skiller amateur gambler or an advantage player, you realize that these people are throwing their money away for no good reason at all--they aren't getting anything in return (NOTE: I am NOT reopening the "entertainment value" debate--what I mean is that they are suffering a worse house advantage than they need to). And yes, that does breed contempt if you, yourself, spend that time and effort seeking out the best ganbling value for your money.
I do agree that the presence of the mentally lazy and the mentally deficient in the casino helps to create opportunities for the rest of us. However, this is one of the very few life's venues where the presence of idiots is a GOOD thing. On balance, I'd rather colonize one of the outer planets with all of those idiots (setting their spaceship to self-destruct on landing, of course) than put up with them in day-to-day life.
Also, an idiot can't help being an idiot, so the specimen I hold in special contempt is the person who HAS a brain but refuses to USE it. For some reason, millions of people think that when they go into a casino, it's a good idea to leave their brains in the glove compartment--probably because they're going to have FUUUUUUUUUUN, and to them, fun and thinking are antithetical.
You may infer from the above that I do not suffer fools gladly (I probably should never turn on the TV or pick up a newspaper). And yes, by the way, the guy who pays $240 too much for the bottle of wine is deserving of contempt as well. The difference in value between drinking the bottle of wine and drinking it in a swanky (read: overpriced and pretentious) restaurant would only be $240 for someone who doesn't care about money. Someone who works at McD's or Wal-Mart would feel particularly appalled at this, since the wine boob just threw away a week's worth of their wages on AMBIANCE. Feh!
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 3rd, 2010 at 11:47:31 AM
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I meant to say that the $1 blackjack game at the Sahara pays even money, plus you receive a $1 voucher for free machine play for every blackjack. So it's something close to a 2:1 game if you play for $1/hand, although you obviously won't get all your money back from the free machine play.
For me, a $1 blackjack game doesn't hold much excitement. But just how positive is this game? I can see how an extremely low roller would enjoy knowing he's playing the best game in town for his money.
On another note, there is a newish game in Vegas that's perfect for people who normally play at $2-$10 a hand, but refuse to play 6-5 blackjack. If you fall into that category, you should definitely check it out. It's a simulated game with a virtual dealer where you sit on stools facing a video screen. The rules and the action are the same, but you're pressing buttons rather than handling cards. These are the places where I've seen it in the 6-deck, 3-2 variety:
-- Westin
-- Riviera
-- Gold Spike (min. only $1/hand)
-- Las Vegas Club
-- Laughlin
For me, a $1 blackjack game doesn't hold much excitement. But just how positive is this game? I can see how an extremely low roller would enjoy knowing he's playing the best game in town for his money.
On another note, there is a newish game in Vegas that's perfect for people who normally play at $2-$10 a hand, but refuse to play 6-5 blackjack. If you fall into that category, you should definitely check it out. It's a simulated game with a virtual dealer where you sit on stools facing a video screen. The rules and the action are the same, but you're pressing buttons rather than handling cards. These are the places where I've seen it in the 6-deck, 3-2 variety:
-- Westin
-- Riviera
-- Gold Spike (min. only $1/hand)
-- Las Vegas Club
-- Laughlin
September 3rd, 2010 at 12:16:40 PM
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Sahara also has those table game machines. I saw them there last year.
There's another advantage to playing 1:1 for $1 - Split tens, or double down on BJ. Sure, the odds are terrible, but for a buck, it's a lot of fun to see the reactions...particularly if ya get lucky!
There's another advantage to playing 1:1 for $1 - Split tens, or double down on BJ. Sure, the odds are terrible, but for a buck, it's a lot of fun to see the reactions...particularly if ya get lucky!
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 4th, 2010 at 2:43:41 AM
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Quote: SolidAUI don't understand why people hold such disdain for people who play games poorly or who don't care about the odds. If someone is having a good time, why is it anyone's business how they choose to spend their time and money? Do you tell the guy who spends $300 on a bottle of wine at a restaurant that he could have bought it for $60 from a wholesaler?
Disdaining the house for offering lousy bets is what protects those bad players and keeps them from having to care about the odds. Atlantic City doesn't allow Big 6/8 bets because they're a swindle. You could make a compelling case that 6:5 is the same situation.
A more apt analogy might be a restaurant offering a really nice $30 bottle and Blue Nun for $300. It's not a case of fraud, but it's pretty damn slimey.
September 4th, 2010 at 2:36:11 PM
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Bellagio also does not have 6:5 blackjack. I've played there on the CSM $10 tables on weekend nights. I was surprised when I saw 3:2 at $5 on a Tuesday morning. Mind you, the dealers aren't that friendly there, but Bellagio does not offer 6:5.
Bally's however, does, and there is indifference between the 6:5 games and the 3:2 games. There are enough indifferent gamblers who do not know that 6:5 is worse. Hell, when spots are tight, there is indifference between Switch, Spanish, 3:2 and 6:5. You'll see regular gamblers play regular blackjack strategy at Switch and Spanish and I just shake my head. I figure, more money to the casino... keeps it open.
So no, as long as folks aren't edumacated, and they won't be, as Barnum and Bailey said, "there's a sucker born every minute". Now give me the horn high yo!
Bally's however, does, and there is indifference between the 6:5 games and the 3:2 games. There are enough indifferent gamblers who do not know that 6:5 is worse. Hell, when spots are tight, there is indifference between Switch, Spanish, 3:2 and 6:5. You'll see regular gamblers play regular blackjack strategy at Switch and Spanish and I just shake my head. I figure, more money to the casino... keeps it open.
So no, as long as folks aren't edumacated, and they won't be, as Barnum and Bailey said, "there's a sucker born every minute". Now give me the horn high yo!
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
September 5th, 2010 at 5:38:03 AM
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Quote: WizardCorrect me if I'm wrong, as always, but I think the Venetian/Palazzo has 100% 3-2 blackjack. Same with the M.
Regarding the general question, the Strip casinos argue that a $5-$10 minimum 3-2 table is not profitable enough to keep on the floor. To play the devil's advocate, they would say the public is better served by giving the $5-$10 blackjack player something to play, rather than start all their blackjack tables at a $25 minimum. Furthermore, they would argue that even 6-5 blackjack is a better bet than most other games.
While those are valid points, I think the Vegas casinos are abusing it, and are trying to gradually phase more and more tables to 6-5. That kind of greed is killing the city.
Wizard, or anyone who may have this information, are there any surveys or numbers out there that detail what percentage of BJ games on the Strip are 6-5 or any other "carnival" type BJ games? I remember reading there are something like 2,400 BJ tables on the Strip, but I am curious to see how much table space these horrible games have taken.
September 5th, 2010 at 7:56:13 AM
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Quote: LSUTiger518are there any surveys out there that detail what percentage of BJ games on the Strip are 6-5 or any other "carnival" type BJ games?
I don't know of any but I would hope that such a survey would differentiate between the brazenly overt 6:5 and the more secretive and thus deceptive offerings. I think there is a difference between some One-Dollar Party Pit with signage as large as a pastie versus a casino that attempts to sneak in 6:5 games with tiny signage and no indication of its being some sort of special area of the casino.
I've played at a Crapless Craps table and it took a few moments and a comment from the dealer for my alcohol-sodden brain to accept that 12 was my point number. The state of my inebriation is my responsibility but the signage and location of the table is the casino's responsibility. I think its a similar situation with 6:5 or 1:1 Blackjack. Its okay if its in an overtly obvious area and has appropriately large signage. That doesn't necessarily make it desirable, nor does it quite make it as economically necessary as the casino might claim, but it does make it fair notice to the player that its a special situation. A casino can have two roulette wheels in close proximity to each other, but signage should be large and explicit if the zero situation is different.
September 7th, 2010 at 4:42:35 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
September 7th, 2010 at 4:47:57 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
September 7th, 2010 at 5:18:51 PM
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<Homer Simpson voice>Ooh, free tee-shirt!</Homer Simpson voice>Quote: IbeatyouracesYeah, they have an 8 deck H17 pit at MGM Detroit with 6/5. You get a "free" tee-shirt for playing there.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 7th, 2010 at 5:37:45 PM
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Quote: LSUTiger518Wizard, or anyone who may have this information, are there any surveys or numbers out there that detail what percentage of BJ games on the Strip are 6-5 or any other "carnival" type BJ games? I remember reading there are something like 2,400 BJ tables on the Strip, but I am curious to see how much table space these horrible games have taken.
According to the September 2010 Current Blackjack Newsletter:
Total blackjack tables = 2099
Total 6-5 = 467
Total Super Fun 21 = 41
Total BJ Switch = 42
Total Spanish 21 = 6
There are a few other novelty blackjack games I didn't list, but are still included in the total games. The total of the four listed is 556, or 26.5% of the total.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 7th, 2010 at 6:03:29 PM
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Quote: WizardAccording to the September 2010 Current Blackjack Newsletter:
Total BJ Switch = 42
.
Hey! That is great. I've met the inventor a couple of times. There were only six or so when I first met him at Casino Royale watching the tables. Nice guy.
September 8th, 2010 at 7:37:10 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesNah, there are four single 0 wheels in Detroit. 2 at MGM and one each at Greektown and Motorcity. LOL
And a lot of the new machines have single zero in both Las Vegas and Atlantic City.
September 13th, 2010 at 11:27:52 AM
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Quote: WizardAccording to the September 2010 Current Blackjack Newsletter:
Total blackjack tables = 2099
Total 6-5 = 467
Total Super Fun 21 = 41
Total BJ Switch = 42
Total Spanish 21 = 6
There are a few other novelty blackjack games I didn't list, but are still included in the total games. The total of the four listed is 556, or 26.5% of the total.
It would be interesting to see what the drop and win percent is for each game.
September 13th, 2010 at 2:20:08 PM
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Ignorance is bliss. The "JP math doesn't matter" guys will help keep the 6/5 games alive and well.
July 7th, 2011 at 3:40:37 PM
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I've seen these 6-5 tables both in Europe and Australia. In the former they have lower limits and speaking to a pit boss are there for the Friday evening crowd and allow lower table limits. (His point being that they are in business and with smaller bets have to increase the house odds to cover costs.)
While in a large Australian casino I once walked up to a table - at the time the hands just being completed covered the strip (that usually says Blackjacks 6-5, Insurance Pays 2-1 or similar) and a nearby leaflet explained "Blackjack" and 3-2. So I put down my $10 and amazingly got a blackjack first hand. When the dealer only paid $12 I complained - whereupon they pointed out the cloth. My formal complaint (I guess similar to the Nevada Commission) fell on deaf ears. As it happens I went onto win a $400 jackpot on a fruit machine - but I won't be going back there to play Blackjack.
Sorry but I suspect 6-5 blackjack is here to stay and it seems a shame that casinos don't always display the full rules and the officials are powerless. They should have the UK idea - which sets a default rule set and for instance only allows casinos to hit soft 17 if it is clearly displayed.
While in a large Australian casino I once walked up to a table - at the time the hands just being completed covered the strip (that usually says Blackjacks 6-5, Insurance Pays 2-1 or similar) and a nearby leaflet explained "Blackjack" and 3-2. So I put down my $10 and amazingly got a blackjack first hand. When the dealer only paid $12 I complained - whereupon they pointed out the cloth. My formal complaint (I guess similar to the Nevada Commission) fell on deaf ears. As it happens I went onto win a $400 jackpot on a fruit machine - but I won't be going back there to play Blackjack.
Sorry but I suspect 6-5 blackjack is here to stay and it seems a shame that casinos don't always display the full rules and the officials are powerless. They should have the UK idea - which sets a default rule set and for instance only allows casinos to hit soft 17 if it is clearly displayed.
July 7th, 2011 at 3:46:23 PM
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My and the missus wont set foot into any casino that offers 6-5 blackjack.
Weve even stopped going to Vegas this year, after 40 visits over the last 15 years :(
Weve even stopped going to Vegas this year, after 40 visits over the last 15 years :(
July 7th, 2011 at 6:38:13 PM
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If you do the math, casinos can not offer 3 to 2 SD BJ, except as a loss-leader !
July 7th, 2011 at 7:11:42 PM
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It's funny... I posted a reply in September, and upon reading it, I finally voted: That Harrah's will go to 1:1 on BJ.
As a Diamond player at Harrah's, I appreciate their room offers and the availability of a Harrah's/Caesars casino in many markets. But they clearly have high overhead in Vegas. Through marketing, they can get their players to come out to Vegas with the hopes of getting them to play worse games than at the local casinos. Unfortunately, there are a few smart players who see through this, and limit their play while in Sin City (like myself).
So, sure go ahead and bilk the customers, who cares, right?
As a Diamond player at Harrah's, I appreciate their room offers and the availability of a Harrah's/Caesars casino in many markets. But they clearly have high overhead in Vegas. Through marketing, they can get their players to come out to Vegas with the hopes of getting them to play worse games than at the local casinos. Unfortunately, there are a few smart players who see through this, and limit their play while in Sin City (like myself).
So, sure go ahead and bilk the customers, who cares, right?
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
July 7th, 2011 at 7:39:31 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffIf you do the math, casinos can not offer 3 to 2 SD BJ, except as a loss-leader !
I'd love to see those definitive mathematic proofs. In the meantime, the El Cortez still offered it at several of their tables as of April, and they seemed to be doing OK to me.
July 7th, 2011 at 8:22:11 PM
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Hey, don't kill the messenger. I hate 6-5 too. But in all of Vegas, per Wiz"s chart, there are 2 casino's that offer 5-2 SD BJ.
I will stand by my original loss leader statement. Take a 6 player table, let 2 players bet $10 a hand and 4 players $5. And deal
70 hands per hour. And make them lousy enough players to lose 2 % at a game where basic strategy will get you an negative house edge of only 0.30 %. $40 X 70 hands = $2800 X 2% = $56. Now pay the dealers, the air conditioning, part of pit personnel, security , and tell me this is not a loss leader. Imagine the drop with knowledge players !!
The Hacienda game has house edge of 0.13% and $2 minimum bet. Does that sound like a money maker for the house ???
Any math experts have a detailed analysis or care to comment ???
I will stand by my original loss leader statement. Take a 6 player table, let 2 players bet $10 a hand and 4 players $5. And deal
70 hands per hour. And make them lousy enough players to lose 2 % at a game where basic strategy will get you an negative house edge of only 0.30 %. $40 X 70 hands = $2800 X 2% = $56. Now pay the dealers, the air conditioning, part of pit personnel, security , and tell me this is not a loss leader. Imagine the drop with knowledge players !!
The Hacienda game has house edge of 0.13% and $2 minimum bet. Does that sound like a money maker for the house ???
Any math experts have a detailed analysis or care to comment ???
July 7th, 2011 at 8:34:42 PM
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70 hands/hour full-time at 0.13% on 6 $2 bets is only $812 for the month. Obviously that's not going to cover overhead, but that assumes you actually realize that HA and that low handle. If you get 2% players all of a sudden you're at $12,500 for the month which is pretty good for a $2 table, and if players start raising their bets that goes up further.
Remember that it's not about single table performance, it's about the performance of the whole floor. NV casinos have bingo for exactly one reason: to drive slot play between breaks. Look at the TTM win on bingo statewide: it's only $4M. That translates into about $9200 per bingo hall per month. The average blackjack table in NV makes $29,000 per month and is at least 100 times smaller (I'm guessing there -- anyone know how many blackjack tables you could fit into a bingo hall?)
Remember that it's not about single table performance, it's about the performance of the whole floor. NV casinos have bingo for exactly one reason: to drive slot play between breaks. Look at the TTM win on bingo statewide: it's only $4M. That translates into about $9200 per bingo hall per month. The average blackjack table in NV makes $29,000 per month and is at least 100 times smaller (I'm guessing there -- anyone know how many blackjack tables you could fit into a bingo hall?)
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
July 7th, 2011 at 8:46:19 PM
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I agree about the whole floor concept. But it is more about economics than greed that has led to the growth of 6-5 BJ at the $5 level.
Of course hitting soft 17 or restricting Double Down at that level sure as hell is greedy.
Hope by late August I can help turn that scene around with my game. The day before I head to Vegas i will definitely post it here.
For constructive criticism and the exposure of any mathematical flaws. I know the players here do not play 6-5 BJ except at gunpoint.
But somebody is at all those tables, that's for sure. Anybody got any numbers for drop per 6-5 $5 versus 3-2 $10 in same casino ?
Of course hitting soft 17 or restricting Double Down at that level sure as hell is greedy.
Hope by late August I can help turn that scene around with my game. The day before I head to Vegas i will definitely post it here.
For constructive criticism and the exposure of any mathematical flaws. I know the players here do not play 6-5 BJ except at gunpoint.
But somebody is at all those tables, that's for sure. Anybody got any numbers for drop per 6-5 $5 versus 3-2 $10 in same casino ?
