War Blackjack is spreading
WarBlackjack Inc
Raving’s Cutting Edge Table Games Conf. Show Winner 2013
Garry A. Hamud, President of War Blackjack, Inc., on behalf of War Blackjack, Best New Table Game 2013, Ravings Consulting/Casino Journal Magazine Gold 1st Place Show Winner, announced that War Blackjack continues to grow in popularity and demand with players and operators alike, now being played at Bear River Casino (CA), Feather Falls Casino (CA), Konocti Vista Casino (CA), and Casino Pauma (CA), opening this week at Cher Ae Heights Casino (CA), Twin Pines Casino (CA), and this month at Colusa Casino (CA), Canterbury Park Casino (MN), Apache Casino (OK), Indigo Sky Casino (OK), and Grand Lakes Casino (OK), with numerous more locations in Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada before the middle of April 2014.
An updated list of all locations will be published on the 20th of March 2014, reflecting 36 venues to date.
Clicked on how to play the game. Up came Blog 12-31-2013
" War Blackjack is played as follows: Player makes an optional War wager in the War game in any amount within table limits, and the winner is determined by whichever player or dealer Up Card is highest. War wins are paid 1:1, and, at this point things get really fun . . the player can take down and pocket his original War wager and win OR he can ‘cap’ or ‘press’ his pending Blackjack wager with all of the War winnings whilst pocketing / being pushed back his original War wager! And, all of this happens AFTER the player has seen the dealer’s Up Card, so he can make a skilled choice. Blackjacks too still pay 3:2."
This does not say what happens to ties. So I clicked on Rules. Ties lose. Just to be sure I clicked on SEE OFFICIAL Rack Card.
Nothing happens ?
If I recall correctly, you lose ties with the dealer in the War portion of the game. So I think the HE starts at 7.7% and then is adjusted down by the player advantage of being able to add your winnings only to the main BJ bet after seeing the dealer's upcard and your own card.
Ace plays as a low card when it comes to the initial game of War, so you can't parlay your winnings with an Ace which would be really nice.
I would guess the decision to add your winnings to your main BJ wager would be dictated by the same basic strategy chart of when to double given a hard 2-10. There are not gridlines for the 2-4 in Basic BJ strategy, but I imagine they are the same as rules for 5-8 where you never double.
So is correct strategy to parlay your War BJ winnings only on:
9 Vs Dealer 3-6
10 Vs. Dealer 2-9
Ace - Can't parlay, because you lost the War wager
Of course players will be playing it much differently, but if correct, that doesn't seem like very many options to parlay correctly (36/169 = 21.3% of hands). The hit rate is over 46% on a win so that is appealing, but it is an even money pay. It looks to be almost the exact opposite of House Money where you have a winning hand 23% of the time and parlay your side bet AND the winnings 47% of the time.
Wonder if it is being rolled out as a $5 min bet due to the hit rate being so high and the parlay rate being 1 in 5 hands. I can't get super excited about playing War for a $1 and then having the option to add my $1 winnings to my $5 Main BJ Bet.
Good research UC!
Quote: ParadigmI would guess the decision to add your winnings to your main BJ wager would be dictated by the same basic strategy chart of when to double given a hard 2-10.
If I understand the game correctly, that would be too conservative.
With a double down, you get to double your bet but you must take exactly one card (you cannot hit again).
In this case you are not giving up the option to take another card, so you should add the winnings whenever you have an edge, even if it's razor-thin.
Quote: ParadigmLooks like it is time for Wiz to do a page on War Blackjack as they have made some significant install progress since Raving.
If I recall correctly, you lose ties with the dealer in the War portion of the game. So I think the HE starts at 7.7% and then is adjusted down by the player advantage of being able to add your winnings only to the main BJ bet after seeing the dealer's upcard and your own card.
Ace plays as a low card when it comes to the initial game of War, so you can't parlay your winnings with an Ace which would be really nice.
I would guess the decision to add your winnings to your main BJ wager would be dictated by the same basic strategy chart of when to double given a hard 2-10. There are not gridlines for the 2-4 in Basic BJ strategy, but I imagine they are the same as rules for 5-8 where you never double.
So is correct strategy to parlay your War BJ winnings only on:
9 Vs Dealer 3-6
10 Vs. Dealer 2-9
Ace - Can't parlay, because you lost the War wager
Of course players will be playing it much differently, but if correct, that doesn't seem like very many options to parlay correctly (36/169 = 21.3% of hands). The hit rate is over 46% on a win so that is appealing, but it is an even money pay. It looks to be almost the exact opposite of House Money where you have a winning hand 23% of the time and parlay your side bet AND the winnings 47% of the time.
Wonder if it is being rolled out as a $5 min bet due to the hit rate being so high and the parlay rate being 1 in 5 hands. I can't get super excited about playing War for a $1 and then having the option to add my $1 winnings to my $5 Main BJ Bet.
Good research UC!
Reading the website, they mention that the War sidebet mins and maxes are the same as the main table wager. I didn't see where ties lose but do recall from Raving that that is correct. They also say that only the winnings can be carried over to the BJ bet, not the War bet amount you placed. I found that distinction interesting. And I wonder if someone's betting the table max whether they have any trouble applying their winnings and effectively playing for double table max. I suppose they could, since that happens on doubles/splits anyway.
Quote: UCivan36 venues to date.
The Wizard [WoO] does not cover this game. He usually does with enough placements.
Quote: odiousgambitThe Wizard [WoO] does not cover this game. He usually does with enough placements.
This is the first I've seen (and I've been watching for it) that they had any placements. Very well done for them, too. But I don't know that the Wizard or anyone else was aware they had passed the regulatory requirements needed, so he may not have known the game was live. They are offering free placements initially (which I understand is not uncommon), so it may be one thing to start the game off, and another once there's a fee to keep it in play. I hope they continue to do well; it helps all designers, I think, to see a game get placed.
Babs, the site says " War Blackjack is played as follows: Player makes an optional War wager in the War game in any amount within table limits"
It also says under rules " War Blackjack is a blackjack side bet configured for use with two, four, or six standard 52-card decks. To begin, players place a main blackjack wager and an optional War bet. The War bet is not limited to any amount relative to the main wager."
That second one is a little misleading.
Curious to see what the rack card says, but that link is broken !
Quote: BuzzardFor what it's worth, I emailed the website yesterday about the errors, and got no reply yet. Not exactly superior customer service.
Babs, the site says " War Blackjack is played as follows: Player makes an optional War wager in the War game in any amount within table limits"
It also says under rules " War Blackjack is a blackjack side bet configured for use with two, four, or six standard 52-card decks. To begin, players place a main blackjack wager and an optional War bet. The War bet is not limited to any amount relative to the main wager."
That second one is a little misleading.
Curious to see what the rack card says, but that link is broken !
Thanks, Buzz; I read the first statement you quoted - "any amount within table limits" to mean the same min-max as the table, and I think that was an incorrect interpretation, though it could be offered with the same limits as the main bet, this doesn't say it is to be offered that way.
My guess is on a $5 min BJ table it will be a $5 min side bet.
I noticed on the website is says Power Press is trademarked. But only last month did they apply for 2 trademarks :
War Blackjack and Take Command 21 War Blackjack.
I agree with 2 games in 1 hand and more than twice the excitement. But think 2 to 5 times the number of chips in play compared to to standard blackjack is a bit on the high side.
Quote: ParadigmThere is no rush in the game if it is offered as a $1 side bet. Who cares about winning a $1 and having the option to add that $1 to your BJ wager.
My guess is on a $5 min BJ table it will be a $5 min side bet.
My guess is the game will not be successful, if that's the case. People are at a $5 table to bet $5 and sometimes a $1 or $2 side bet.
At least that's the case in Colorado.
When House Money gets here( And with Bally it will appear at 10 or 12 casinos all at once ), it will last about as long as Switch did.
The difference between this and House Money is with HM you have a chance to win more than 1-1 on your side bet and get to stack the original bet and your winnings on the main BJ bet. While I believe roughly 22% of the 23% hit rate is 1-1/3-1 in HM, you will have the 1 in 100 opportunity to win 4-1 or 9-1.
That being said, I have played HM 3 times and twice it was offered as a $5 min game. The time I played it for $1 or $2, it didn't seem like a very good game. However, as a $5 game, you do get some juice hitting a pair of Jacks against a dealer up ard of 4-6 with a $10 main bet & a $5 HM bet allowing you to add $20 to you $10 BJ bet with a pat hand of 20......that is a good player experience!
Take the same hand with War Blackjack where you win the War bet with your first Jack...now you get to add $5 to your $10 BJ bet.....it is 't quite the same IMHO.
So a nickle player gets a pair, caps before splitting, then re-splits, throw in a double or two and he can see $100 of his money out there.
On weekends in Colorado it can be $200. Because it will be $10 minimum on BJ and looks like that makes it $10 minimum on
HM side bet.
That's what killed SWITCH. Just so you know this in not after the fact talk, I commented that on a thread here when I first saw the game in Colorado. Nickle players don't wanna play $10 on weekends, let alone $20. And for the opportunity to SWITCH , so they can double down or split and have $40 or $60 in play on one hand. All on a game they are unsure of the proper strategy.
But HM will have that same $20 a hand hurdle to overcome.
That's not how the game is played per Bally website.
Or am I missing something. Posted limits in Colorado $10 Minimum, $100 on a $10 BJ table. About all you will find on a weekend.
" You may also make the House Money wager for any amount within the posted limits."
Yes I missed something. $5 minimum BJ table and you bet $10 on BJ and $5 HM. Not exactly what the average $5 player will do !
Properties will decide whatever limits they want on the game. The distributor doesn't force a property to do anything when it comes to table limits.
You may be right that a $5 min side bet would not work in Colorado.....but it will work in a lot of other markets.
I think HM & War BJ need a $5 min to be compelling for the player, but that's just my opinion.
T,J,Q,K vs 2-9
9 vs 2-8
8 vs 2-7
7 vs 4-6
6 vs 5
Quote: BuzzardCan you tell me which casino is using an infinite deck ? Thanks !
There was an online casino that used one, but they don't exist anymore.
Quote: mipletThe correct capping based on infinite decks is:
T,J,Q,K vs 2-9
9 vs 2-8
8 vs 2-7
7 vs 4-6
6 vs 5
Thanks Mips!
So if this is correct, you will win even money on approximately 46% of hands (78/169) and then cap the winnings on 63% of those winning hands (49/78). This only makes sense to me as a player if you make War BJ a $5 minimum bet.
There are markets where $5 minimum on side bets are the norm. For $1, it is a "who cares?" type of proposition bet when alongside a $5 or more main BJ wager.
Do I have the above right?
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13War Blackjack will be coming to my place in a few months. I believe we'll be the first in the State (as usual) to give this brand new game a shot.
On the cutting edge as always!!
Quote: Zcore13War Blackjack will be coming to my place in a few months. I believe we'll be the first in the State (as usual) to give this brand new game a shot.
ZCore13
Will you be putting it next to the Texas Shootout Table ?
Quote: BuzzardWill you be putting it next to the Texas Shootout Table ?
well since we have 2 Texas Shootout tables and only ten tables total there's a good chance it might be next to a Texas shootout table. I'm not that great at Mass but you might be able to figure out the chances on that. I haven't really decided where it's going to go yet.
ZCore13
I wonder if any forum members have seen / played this game in casinos. So far, no one has posted any play experience, except that Zcore is installing the game in his casino. 36 placements is very impressive for any new game. If these are independent developers, then the accomplishment is really amazing.Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: odiousgambitThe Wizard [WoO] does not cover this game. He usually does with enough placements.
This is the first I've seen (and I've been watching for it) that they had any placements. Very well done for them, too. But I don't know that the Wizard or anyone else was aware they had passed the regulatory requirements needed, so he may not have known the game was live. They are offering free placements initially (which I understand is not uncommon), so it may be one thing to start the game off, and another once there's a fee to keep it in play. I hope they continue to do well; it helps all designers, I think, to see a game get placed.
I will be in the area of Casino Pauma later in the week, it was on the list of "open now" properties, so I will report what I find.
It definitely is on the Bear River Casino website, so it must be in play there.
I believe they are still an independent developer, but have some arrangements with Aces Up/Ten Sticks gaming to use their licenses in various states. Ten Sticks is listed as an AZ approved vendor, so I bet that Zcore's install is going through that company for licensing/distribution purposes.
It is being run as a $5 minimum side bet on a $5 minimum BJ Table. I bet that will be the standard as the bet simply doesn't make sense at a $1 minimum. I played maybe 20 hands with $5 on each wager. Hit two tie hands and lost them, that kind of stinks, but also managed to win with a 2 against an Ace, recall Aces play low in the War Blackjack side bet. Left even for the session which was great as I simply wanted to get a feel for the game.
I think the $5 minimum will be the challenge for the game at this property as every other side bet on the floor, and there are side bets on every main pit BJ table, appeared to be $1 minimums. Further, they also run a $3 minimum BJ game (with even money pays on BJ, ouch!) which tells me this is more of a lower roller type of property vs. the Pechanga's or Pala's nearby.
The table was empty before I sat down. While the property was fairly slow (3PM on a weekday afternoon), there were at least 3 other BJ tables open with perhaps 6-7 players dispersed amongst them. 2 or 3 of those players were playing the Buster Blackjack side bet on the other tables.
It is way too early to tell how the game is doing, but War Blackjack has a solid table position in the main pit and looks like it will be open everyday.
I hope they succeed as multi step BJ side bets (as opposed to instant resolution side bets like Lucky Ladies, 21+3, Royal Match, Lucky Lucky, etc.) are what is next in BJ side bets IMHO. War BJ, House Money, 3 to 1 Blackjack and Lucky Stiff BJ, are trying to make the multi-step/journey type of BJ side bet the new standard.
Isn't Shortie Blackjack the first one to start the new standard? How is it doing now? How about House Money?Quote: ParadigmI hope they succeed as multi step BJ side bets (as opposed to instant resolution side bets like Lucky Ladies, 21+3, Royal Match, Lucky Lucky, etc.) are what is next in BJ side bets IMHO. War BJ, House Money, 3 to 1 Blackjack and Lucky Stiff BJ, are trying to make the multi-step/journey type of BJ side bet the new standard.
I know House Money has installs in NV, CA,WA that I have seen. The last I heard at G2E they were above 100 tables at that point, likely higher now. Pacman will have to advise on that one.
Quote: Paradigm
I hope they succeed as multi step BJ side bets (as opposed to instant resolution side bets like Lucky Ladies, 21+3, Royal Match, Lucky Lucky, etc.) are what is next in BJ side bets IMHO. War BJ, House Money, 3 to 1 Blackjack and Lucky Stiff BJ, are trying to make the multi-step/journey type of BJ side bet the new standard.
Don't for get my Odds-Win Bonus (Multi-step BJ side-bet), It will be in on-line casinos some time this year.
Odds-Win Bonus Blackjack:
The Odds-Win Bonus may be played with any standard blackjack main game using 1-8 decks.
The rules and general dealing procedures are as follows:
1. The player makes a main blackjack wager and optional Odds-Win Bonus before the hand begins.
2. There is no restriction on the Odds-Win Bonus amount relative to the main bet amount. I.e., the Odds-Win Bonus may exceed the main bet.
3. The player receives his first two cards. If he’s made an optional Odds-Win Bonus, the dealer checks if the two card total is odd. If the two card total is even, the Odds-Win Bonus loses. If the two card total is odd, the dealer leaves the Odds-Win Bonus which will win if the player wins or pushes his main hand.
4. The hand is played out following standard blackjack dealing procedures. If the player has a remaining Odds-Win Bonus, he may not surrender his hand. If the player busts, he loses all his bets.
5. If the player wins the main hand, his remaining Odds-Win Bonus (if any) is paid 4-to-1 for blackjack, and 3-to-1 for any other total. If the player ties the dealer, his remaining Odds-Win Bonus (if any) is paid even-money. Otherwise, if the player loses the main hand, his Odds-Win Bonus also loses.
Any feedback welcome.
Quote: MrCasinoGames4. The hand is played out following standard blackjack dealing procedures. If the player has a remaining Odds-Win Bonus, he may not surrender his hand. If the player busts, he loses all his bets.
Any reason why you can't surrender and sacrifice your Odds-Win wager?
Quote: VenthusAny reason why you can't surrender and sacrifice your Odds-Win wager?
Probably to prevent player stupidity. Because wouldn't this be a bad idea in most cases? Except if you had a tiny Odds-Win bet vs. the main BJ bet.
Quote: VenthusAny reason why you can't surrender and sacrifice your Odds-Win wager?
Quote: tringlomaneProbably to prevent player stupidity. Because wouldn't this be a bad idea in most cases? Except if you had a tiny Odds-Win bet vs. the main BJ bet.
Yes Tringlomane, It is to prevent player play Stupidly.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesDon't for get my Odds-Win Bonus (Multi-step BJ side-bet), It will be in on-line casinos some time this year.
I like it, Stephen. Strengths IMO are the simple qualifier and high qualification/hit rates, much like 3-to-1 BJ.
Good luck!
Quote: ParadigmI got a chance to stop by Casino Pauma in Pauma Valley, CA today around 3PM. They do have War Blackjack and have had it in play for a little over 2 weeks.
It is being run as a $5 minimum side bet on a $5 minimum BJ Table. I bet that will be the standard as the bet simply doesn't make sense at a $1 minimum. I played maybe 20 hands with $5 on each wager. Hit two tie hands and lost them, that kind of stinks, but also managed to win with a 2 against an Ace, recall Aces play low in the War Blackjack side bet. Left even for the session which was great as I simply wanted to get a feel for the game.
I think the $5 minimum will be the challenge for the game at this property as every other side bet on the floor, and there are side bets on every main pit BJ table, appeared to be $1 minimums. Further, they also run a $3 minimum BJ game (with even money pays on BJ, ouch!) which tells me this is more of a lower roller type of property vs. the Pechanga's or Pala's nearby.
The table was empty before I sat down. While the property was fairly slow (3PM on a weekday afternoon), there were at least 3 other BJ tables open with perhaps 6-7 players dispersed amongst them. 2 or 3 of those players were playing the Buster Blackjack side bet on the other tables.
It is way too early to tell how the game is doing, but War Blackjack has a solid table position in the main pit and looks like it will be open everyday.
I hope they succeed as multi step BJ side bets (as opposed to instant resolution side bets like Lucky Ladies, 21+3, Royal Match, Lucky Lucky, etc.) are what is next in BJ side bets IMHO. War BJ, House Money, 3 to 1 Blackjack and Lucky Stiff BJ, are trying to make the multi-step/journey type of BJ side bet the new standard.
Nice review. I'll be allowing $1 - $25 on the war bet.
ZCore13
Z are you going to do any type of tracking of participation rate? That always seems to be the hardest piece of information to obtain when determining how a new side bet is performing.
The typical problem is that the only way to get that information is for the floor or surveillance to manually track those bets as a percentage of regular BJ bets.
Obviously you can track drop and hold parameters, but due to short term variance on the main BJ game or the side bet, that will not always be a reflection of how the side bet will perform long term. To me, the key is you want players making the side bet and the numbers will sort themselves out. But how do you track participation rate other than manually watching the table and tabulating bets?
Quote: ParadigmAt $1 - $25, the players will end up driving the action themselves as they see it play out. They will realize that it is a higher hit rate type of bet, that stacking $1 on their $5 BJ wager isn't very exciting and I bet end up making $3 or $5 War BJ wagers as their norm.
Z are you going to do any type of tracking of participation rate? That always seems to be the hardest piece of information to obtain when determining how a new side bet is performing.
The typical problem is that the only way to get that information is for the floor or surveillance to manually track those bets as a percentage of regular BJ bets.
Obviously you can track drop and hold parameters, but due to short term variance on the main BJ game or the side bet, that will not always be a reflection of how the side bet will perform long term. To me, the key is you want players making the side bet and the numbers will sort themselves out. But how do you track participation rate other than manually watching the table and tabulating bets?
I rarely ever track participation percentage. I let the end numbers speak for themselves and watch/talk to players for player enjoyment. I personally play every game and side bet before bringing it in and am in the pit a lot. I'll take personal experience over a raw stat any day.
Is there any placement for 3 to 1 Blackjack?Quote: Paradigm
I hope they succeed as multi step BJ side bets (as opposed to instant resolution side bets like Lucky Ladies, 21+3, Royal Match, Lucky Lucky, etc.) are what is next in BJ side bets IMHO. War BJ, House Money, 3 to 1 Blackjack and Lucky Stiff BJ, are trying to make the multi-step/journey type of BJ side bet the new standard.
Z, Do you also ask your dealers whether they liked the game or not? Hope U could get honest answers from them. We all know very well that almost all dealers just don't like new games.Quote: Zcore13I personally play every game and side bet before bringing it in and am in the pit a lot. I'll take personal experience over a raw stat any day.
Quote: UCivanZ, Do you also ask your dealers whether they liked the game or not? Hope U could get honest answers from them. We all know very well that almost all dealers just don't like new games.
Yes, I always get dealer feedback, but I'm not usually wrong about a game after researching and playing a game. I am a player and dealer at heart. Those are the eyes I look through when doing anything in my department. Also, I've done a lot for the department and dealer tokes, so they trust and support me when something new or different comes in.
ZCore13
Quote: MrCasinoGamesDon't for get my Odds-Win Bonus (Multi-step BJ side-bet), It will be in on-line casinos some time this year.
Didn't mean to leave you out Stephen, the list is what came to me off the top of my head at the time. Your Odds-Win side bet certainly falls in the "journey/multi-step" side bet category.
As Lucky indicated, it is similar to the "3-1 Blackjack" side bet that was exhibited at Raving. That one uses a qualifier of same color two card hand. Get paid 3-1 if you subsequently beat the dealer.
Quote: UCivanIs there any placement for 3 to 1 Blackjack?
I believe they have a placement committed, not sure it is live yet. Owner is a member here but not that active on the boards. If I recall, the bet got slammed on the Forum and then went and then promptly made the podium at Raving (3rd) :-)......go get 'em Tim!!
Quote: UCivanHope all TGDs are like you, let good games go into casinos.
+1.......unfortunately, Z is amongst a small number of DTG's that operate this way!
Quote: Paradigm+1.......unfortunately, Z is amongst a small number of DTG's that operate this way!
True. But in their defense, some are 'handcuffed' by top down policies that direct them to (a) reject all 'unproven' games, or (b) rely solely on HQ to choose the games to put on the floor, sometimes without regard to individual markets or the 'on the ground' experience of their TGDs (e.g., Caesar's Entertainment).
The best properties are run by real pros who hire real leaders with floor experience and give them (TGDs) a high level of autonomy to review and place new games. The smarter ones, like Z, listen to their patrons, dealers, and floor people and thereby serve these constituencies, as well as the industry as a whole, by introducing promising new games to the marketplace.
It baffles me that an industry that's based on 'risk' has become one that is increasingly averse to 'risk.'
Quote: LuckyI like it, Stephen. Strengths IMO are the simple qualifier and high qualification/hit rates, much like 3-to-1 BJ.
Good luck!
Thanks Lucky,
Good luck with your games too.
