2 Face Blackjack
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I just started a page on 2 Face Blackjack, but so far all that is there are the rules. Xcite Gaming is behind it. I just asked them for the math report. Hopefully they will provide it.
I played the game for about 15 minutes and thought it was a pretty good idea. When the dealer exposed the hole card, I had to make educated guesses on the strategy.
and the player gets to see the dealer hole card at times. This
gives the player a jolt, and a reason to play again. The person
who designed this understands what players want, unlike 90%
of the designers out there.
Quote: WizardWhen the dealer exposed the hole card, I had to make educated guesses on the strategy.
For any hand where the dealer exposes his hole card, would the correct strategy be similar to that used when playing double exposure blackjack.?
I guess with the 10s removed there'd be some differences
Hard 17 18 19 20
4-8 H H H sur.
9 H H H sur.
10 H H H H
11 H H H H
12 H H H sur.
13 H H H sur.
14 H H H sur.
15 H H H sur.
16 H H sur. sur.
17 S H sur. sur.
18 S S sur. sur.
19 S S S sur.
20-21 S S S S
Soft 17 18 19 20
13 H H H H
14 H H H H
15 H H H H
16 H H H H
17 H H H H
18 S H H H
19 S S S H
20-21 S S S S
Splits 17 18 19 20
2,2 split split H sur.
3,3 split split H sur.
4,4 H H H sur.
5,5 H H H H
6,6 split H H sur.
7,7 split H H sur.
8,8 split split sur. sur.
9,9 S split split sur.
10,10 S S S S
A,A H H H H
Quote: Mission146Is there no doubling allowed on this game?
The player would double a lot when the dealer has 12- 16. Here's what I get vs 12-16:
Hard 12 13 14 15 16
4 H H H H doub.
5 H H H H doub.
6 H H H doub. doub.
7 H H H doub. doub.
8 H doub. doub. doub. doub.
9 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
10 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
11 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
12 H S S S S
13-21 S S S S S
Soft 12 13 14 15 16
13-18 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
19 S doub. doub. doub. doub.
20 S S S doub. doub.
21 S S S S doub.*
Splits 12 13 14 15 16
2,2 split split split split split
3,3 split split split split split
4,4 split split split split split
5,5 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
6,6 split split split split split
7,7 split split split split split
8,8 split split split split split
9,9 split split split split split
10,10 S S S split split
A,A split split split split split
*After splitting 10,10 vs 16, the player would double 10,A. However, the player wouldn't double blackjack vs 16.
How many times do you play blackjack and it feels like every hand the dealer keeps showing face cards? Well it seems like you'd actually WANT that with this game.
And compared to the push on 22 games, the missing 10s aren't very noticeable to the player whereas the push on 22 can be infuriating. Even money BJ is no fun, but bearable.
I'll check it out when I'm in Vegas in a week and a half.
Worst case scenario, the Hard-11 consists of 9,2, so in an eight deck shoe, you have:
48 * 8 = 384
31 + 32 + 31 + 95 = 189
32 to push
31 + 32 + 32 + 32 +32 = 159
(189/380 * 2) - (32 * 0) - (159/380 * 2) = 0.1578947368421052
Now, the same results, but with hitting:
(189/380 * 1) - (32 * 0) - (159/380 * 1) = 0.0789473684210526
In the value of hitting to a total of 12-16 and being able to hit again, we'd need to find expected value of:
0.1578947368421052 - 0.0789473684210526 = 0.0789473684210526
Over the value of hitting to a total of 17-21.
I do understand that the probability of just winning the hand clearly increases, I'm just wondering by how much.
It would take some time for me to determine all of the possible outcomes for that hit on 11 to a total of 17+, otherwise bust, so do you happen to already know the EV of hitting on Hard-11 vs. a Dealer Seven?
Quote: Mission146Is there no doubling allowed on this game?
It is allowed, including after the dealer exposes his hole card. For example, doubling on 11 against a 16 would be perfectly allowed.
Quote: ChesterDogHere's what I get for the strategy against the dealer's 17 to 20:
Good stuff! Is this based on six or infinite decks? Have you done further analysis of the game? So far the game maker has ignored my inquiry for the math on the game.
Quote: WizardGood stuff! Is this based on six or infinite decks? Have you done further analysis of the game? So far the game maker has ignored my inquiry for the math on the game.
Thanks!
I used an infinite deck analysis. For resplitting up to four hands except aces, I get an amazing house edge of 0.41%. And if resplitting of aces is allowed, I get a house edge of 0.39%.
Quote: Mission146I guess I don't understand not doubling Hard-11 against 17, just for one example. There are twelve values in this game, six values win, one value pushes and five values lose.
Worst case scenario, the Hard-11 consists of 9,2, so in an eight deck shoe, you have:
48 * 8 = 384
31 + 32 + 31 + 95 = 189
32 to push
31 + 32 + 32 + 32 +32 = 159
(189/380 * 2) - (32 * 0) - (159/380 * 2) = 0.1578947368421052
Now, the same results, but with hitting:
(189/380 * 1) - (32 * 0) - (159/380 * 1) = 0.0789473684210526
In the value of hitting to a total of 12-16 and being able to hit again, we'd need to find expected value of:
0.1578947368421052 - 0.0789473684210526 = 0.0789473684210526
Over the value of hitting to a total of 17-21.
I do understand that the probability of just winning the hand clearly increases, I'm just wondering by how much.
It would take some time for me to determine all of the possible outcomes for that hit on 11 to a total of 17+, otherwise bust, so do you happen to already know the EV of hitting on Hard-11 vs. a Dealer Seven?
Here are my infinite-deck results for doubling and hitting/standing with 11 vs 17:
Card Total EV dbl. EV hit/stand
10 21 2.000 1.000
10 21 2.000 1.000
10 21 2.000 1.000
9 20 2.000 1.000
8 19 2.000 1.000
7 18 2.000 1.000
6 17 0.000 0.000
5 16 -2.000 -0.250
4 15 -2.000 -0.188
3 14 -2.000 -0.120
2 13 -2.000 -0.046
1 12 -2.000 0.033
AVERAGE 0.167 0.452
I see that doubling is bad because of those certain losses of two bets when the player gets a five or less.
Quote: IbeatyouracesEnough to make hitting the better play, even in standard blackjack when the hole card is known, you hit 11 vs. 17.
Looks that way, sure goes against my intuition on that play. I wouldn't play it without seeing a chart, though, and that's why!!!
Quote: ChesterDogI used an infinite deck analysis. For resplitting up to four hands except aces, I get an amazing house edge of 0.41%. And if resplitting of aces is allowed, I get a house edge of 0.39%.
Here is my basic strategy. We disagree in several places. I still need to double check my work. I actually have a two-year old spreadsheet on this game. I'm not sure why.
It seems odd that you just hit a hand total of 10 against a dealer 12, 13 or 14 when it is composed of two 5's.
Quote: ZerchiDoes the chart indicate doubling a natural against a 16, or would that only be for a soft 21 after splitting?
It seems odd that you just hit a hand total of 10 against a dealer 12, 13 or 14 when it is composed of two 5's.
It's soft 21 after splitting. And good catch. Hitting 55 in those spots does look inconsistent to the standard strategy for 10.
Quote: ZerchiDoes the chart indicate doubling a natural against a 16, or would that only be for a soft 21 after splitting?
Soft 21 after splitting.
Quote:It seems odd that you just hit a hand total of 10 against a dealer 12, 13 or 14 when it is composed of two 5's.
Yeah, that doesn't seem right. I'm in the process of starting over with a clean spreadsheet. I don't trust that old one that strategy is based on.
Quote: ZerchiDoes the chart indicate doubling a natural against a 16, or would that only be for a soft 21 after splitting?
It seems odd that you just hit a hand total of 10 against a dealer 12, 13 or 14 when it is composed of two 5's.
Zerchi,
Not a mathematician, but getting rid of 1/4 of the ten-count cards has to be a significant factor in changing the strategy on things like this; you're that much more likely to get a smaller card that will be less help on a double-down and benefit from being able to be hit again. I would guess that it's a close percentage in that range, but hit is the side of the line that is the better play overall on those cards, so that's the correct strategy. EDIT: The Wiz answered the same time I did, so I'm going to leave my opinion up, but defer to what he said.
Quote: mipletThey list the bs and house edge starting on page 21. pdf
Good work! I hunted around their site and didn't find that.
I see they say the infinite-deck house edge under the Paris rules (their version 1) is 0.407%. I get 0.442%.
By the way, that report says re-splitting aces is not allowed.
Quote: WizardSoft 21 after splitting.
But since BJ is even money, is BJ able to be doubled vs. a 6? Or does BJ beat a 21 by the dealer so you don't want to double?
Quote: ams288Are you allowed to hit aces after splitting them or do you only get one card? I'm wondering what the difference between the soft 12 row and the A,A row is.
Good point. That row is hypothetical only. I'll remove it.
Quote: tringlomaneBut since BJ is even money, is BJ able to be doubled vs. a 6? Or does BJ beat a 21 by the dealer so you don't want to double?
I suppose you could, but it would be a bad play. The highest EV, other than a natural, is doubling soft-21 against a hard 16. The EV of that play is 0.930555556, less than the 1.0 by taking the natural.
Quote: WizardI see they say the infinite-deck house edge under the Paris rules (their version 1) is 0.407%. I get 0.442%.
I found the point of departure. I was allowing infinite re-splitting and they capped it to four hands. Normally the four-hand limit makes hardly any difference, because the player so seldom would otherwise get to five or more. However, this game calls for splitting tens against a 15 or 16. With infinite re-splitting the player can expect to be rebuffed to re-split 0.14 twenties each initial time the player splits tens. Adding that rule I get the same 0.407% house edge as the Xcite report.
I consider my page on 2 Face Blackjack pretty much done. I welcome all comments and corrections.
Getting rid of the 10s really is brilliant, IMO. The average BJ player is not going to properly adjust their play to account for this. The house edge is very low with optimal play, but hardly anyone is going to play optimally.
Quote: ams288Getting rid of the 10s really is brilliant, IMO. The average BJ player is not going to properly adjust their play to account for this. The house edge is very low with optimal play, but hardly anyone is going to play optimally.
It is the beauty of Spanish 21 as well and the reason it holds so much more vs. Traditional BJ in WA.
Quote: ams288I've printed out the strategy and I'll use it next weekend when I'm in Vegas.
Good idea. With the possible exception of craps, it is probably the best bet in the whole casino.
Quote: BuzzardThis will go the way of Face Up Blackjack. People with use their version of basic strategy, find they go broke even faster, and that will be that !
Buzz brings up an interesting point, anyone care to figure out the edge using basic BJ strategy except where an adjustment to BS is likely obvious to most players (i.e. Surrendering a 19 against a known dealer 20)?
If this non-optimal strategy HE ends up in the range of 1.5%-2%, the type of player making those mistakes likely plays regular BJ to a similar edge and won't notice their bankroll dissipating any faster than normal.
Apparently it's been in Paris for over a year.
For the most part, the dealers at Paris were no good. Unfriendly, unhelpful, might as well have been made of stone. There were a couple friendly ones, but they gave awful advice. That always bugs me. When I told one that basic strategy is to split 10s against a 15 or a 16, she said my strategy card was "a joke card."
Then during my last session the dealer was a really friendly guy. He saw I had it printed out and asked where I got it. I told him WoO and he got really excited. Said he'd checked for it before but didn't see it. Said he was gonna print it out when he got home. I was the only one at the table. He kept asking me proper plays. He said he's never been able to give any advice on the game because he didn't know the strategy (that sure doesn't stop the other dealers). He asked if I knew the house edge and I told him 0.4%ish. He got really excited about that too, said this or dice is the game to play at Paris then.
There were never more than two other players at the table. And, as expected, most of them played it like traditional BJ. They were afraid to take their hits and often ended up killing the table because of it.
Quote: IbeatyouracesJust a guess here, but the more face cards you keep pulling out to splits, the more likely the dealer will not bust his/her hand.
Not for infinite deck.
Quote: bigfoot66What am I missing here? How does the house edge drop when they limit you to splitting 4 times instead of letting you split more times? Shouldn't more options decrease the house edge? If splittling more than 4 times increases the house edge why are we splitting to a 5th hand?
There is something else at play, and I don't remember what. If we allow re-splitting tens infinitely I get a house edge of 0.395%.
Quote: bigfoot66My only thought was that it might have something to do with the fact that, as you continue to split, you put more money on the table, but the house edge is measured versus the original one bet. So perhaps the "element of risk" is decreasing but for some other reason it was increasing the house edge.
No. The house edge in blackjack is measured in terms of the original wager only. Having more choices should never increase the house edge, assuming optimal strategy.
1. When you split aces, can you double?
2. When the player has blackjack and the player has a 10 and shows an ace, I assume it's a push?
Thanks,
Oscar
Quote: oscar33Sounds like a great game. Two questions:
1. When you split aces, can you double?
2. When the player has blackjack and the player has a 10 and shows an ace, I assume it's a push?
Thanks,
Oscar
1 - No, you get one card only. Which really sucks in this game sucks because there are no 10s.
2 - I assume you mean both the player and dealer have blackjack. It's a push.
Quote: ams288I think Paris got rid of the game. At the very least it's been moved from where it was previously. I wanted to play last weekend and there was just a regular 21+3 table there. I wandered around a bit looking for it but didn't find it.
Yes, it's been removed.
