Am I Slot or Not?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

For example, ShuffleMaster's TableMaster BlackJack machine, the one with the big screen display of a dealer with several player positions, looks and acts like blackjack, but is considered a slot machine by most gaming authorities.

Rapid Roulette and Rapid Craps would also be considered slot machines if they included TITO devices.

I think the operative difference is that ShuffleMaster looks like a table game, but in fact a different virtual deck is used for each player. So the play of anyone else does not affect your outcome at all. With 8 decks it would only be a minor effect, but in order to meet most jurisdictions definition there can be no effect at all.

Rapid Craps does not qualify as slots, because you are betting on an action undertaken by another person. It's a narrow definition, but because another person rolls a dice, or starts a RNG, then it is no longer a slot machine. It is now an electronic table game.

Quote: Wizard

The distinction gets very blurry with some of the tables at the Red Rock and Riviera.

My knee jerk reaction was that this is would be a table game and the only thing the machine added was the handling of currency and betting. However, after looking at the definition of a "slot machine" given above it isn't really clear. At first I thought a distinction might be that a player cannot initiate the start of the game, i.e. it requires the dealer to act to initiate the "game". However, there are also various gaming devices such as the old Sega Royal Ascot game that initiated the start of a race itself, at predetermined intervals.

My current opinion, subject to change, is that the distinction is that the "mechanical, electrical or other device, contrivance or machine" cannot complete a game without some outside action by an operator. This would be similar to keno driven by a RNG.

Mark

Quote: ThatDonGuy

whether by reason of the skill of the operator or application of the element of chance, or both,

So at least in Vegas, it's basically a machine where:

• Cash or credit slips go in
• A game of luck, skill, or combination thereof is played
• The machine pays back in cash or credit slips

And now to derail my own thread slightly
So in the case of Scrabble or Cash King Checkers... They are skill games slightly more on par with Video Poker than a straight up slot machine. Even Gems Wild Tiles, which has no skill, is a different breed of game than a "normal" slot.

Have you ever seen games like these catch on?
Will games like these catch on?

As a 35 year-old grew-up-on-video-games-and-computers-child, I would be more apt to play something that is more interactive and fun with a decent pay return.

Pacomartin,
If each player plays from a virtual deck (which I'm not disputing) wouldn't you have a problem accounting for the dealer's hand? There is only one dealers hand and it needs to be drawn from a true virtual deck. Which deck is it drawn from? A player and dealer may end up with the same cards and that isn't possible in the table game. I've always thought that virtual cards and dice must have the same probability in the virtual game as they would in a physical game.

Mark

Mark -

The dealer plays out of his own shoe as well - which also contributes to giving the machine the "slot" designation.

I presume there are jurisdictions where everyone uses a single shoe. But even in those cases, I'd assume it's a new shoe for each hand.

Quote: Dween

As a 35 year-old grew-up-on-video-games-and-computers-child, I would be more apt to play something that is more interactive and fun with a decent pay return.

There you are!!!! In the market I'm in you're a mythical creature. We keep hearing about the next generation of slot players that grew up on video games but have never seen you. We see much more of the shuffleboard crowd than the Xbox crowd. And before anyone says it, we know that you need to market to the group to get the players.

Mark

The Bally roulette slot is the most deviant slot
I know of. It looks like roulette, it has the same
rules as roulette, the same payouts. But its a
slot machine, it arrives at the winning number
like a slot. It pays off not by picking randomly
from 36 numbers, but by paying off like a
regular slot does. This is very confusing to
many people who play it and know how roulette
works. For instance, you see the zero's sleep
for long periods on a regular wheel. Not so
on the machine, they show up regular as rain.
One time I was walking by a bank of them and
I noticed somebody had bet a total of $112 on
every betting space on the layout, in 50 cent
chips. All but the number 2, which wasn't covered.
The winning number? 2, of course.

Quote: EvenBob

The Bally roulette slot is the most deviant slot
I know of. It looks like roulette, it has the same
rules as roulette, the same payouts. But its a
slot machine, it arrives at the winning number
like a slot.

That seems to be inconsistent with the Nevada regulation 14.040.2(b).
"(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant."


Mark

Quote: marksolberg

That seems to be inconsistent with the Nevada regulation 14.040.2(b).
"(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant."

Well, they've gotten around that somehow, its a slot.
I was told as much by a slot tech, after I complained
it wasn't acting like the real game. I once saw a guy
win $1100, and make bets until the whole $1100 was
gone. He won a little a couple of times, but it took the
money back ruthlessly. That can happen on a roulette
table, but its the exception, not the rule. It will take
the $1100, but it takes much longer usually. On the
machines, the exceptions seem to be the rule.

Not trying to change the subject, but has anyone done any research into the math on Top Dollar slots? My wife plays them and always goes for a higher amount and always seems to end up with less.