darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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February 9th, 2017 at 10:39:29 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

The underlying complaint was that they altered the element or chance. If someone hit the button at 48 seconds and 'always' won, then this would be a machine malfunction like any other. Sure, the player can sit and play all day, but the casino certainly could refuse to pay based on machine malfunction.

An example of this is also the double up trick. It was just some guys hitting some buttons, but they figured out if they hit them in a certain sequence at a certain time that it changed the outcome. This is the same thing. The guy is hitting a button at a certain time and it changes the outcome.



Again i beg to differ. The double up similar to the phil ivey case required some physical action on the part of the casino. Turning cards in ivey case and enabling a double up option normally turned off

Simply sitting down and playing cannot be considered cheating regardless of what time interval you pick for depressing the button. Also note the article says the casinos are not pulling out and replacing the machines but letting them continue to operate as is. That alone refutes any allegation of machine malfunction. If the slots have a bug then they need to be fixed. That is not the situation here. Instead the slots are working per design. Just someone figured out how to beat them. Assuming you could do it purely by your own brainpower no electronic device that is
Romes
Romes
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February 9th, 2017 at 11:19:23 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Again i beg to differ. The double up similar to the phil ivey case required some physical action on the part of the casino. Turning cards in ivey case and enabling a double up option normally turned off

The double up feature was, and still is at some places, on by default. It required zero casino action for a lot of the double up feature glitch money. Sure some places they asked for the feature to be turned on, but I believe the majority of them were already on.

Quote: darkoz

Simply sitting down and playing cannot be considered cheating regardless of what time interval you pick for depressing the button. Also note the article says the casinos are not pulling out and replacing the machines but letting them continue to operate as is. That alone refutes any allegation of machine malfunction. If the slots have a bug then they need to be fixed. That is not the situation here. Instead the slots are working per design. Just someone figured out how to beat them. Assuming you could do it purely by your own brainpower no electronic device that is

Being a programmer, anything that results in a non-desired outcome in a bug. This is definitely a bug. The article simply stated that it would take too much effort/money/whatever to pull and re-program the machines to use a different PRNG. Also, they're not just sitting down "and playing" as you put it. They're sitting down and pressing the button at a specific time to manipulate the outcome. "And playing" would mean they're just hitting the button randomly as most players do.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
DRich
DRich
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February 9th, 2017 at 2:05:56 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz



Simply sitting down and playing cannot be considered cheating regardless of what time interval you pick for depressing the button.



I think that is the disconnect. It doesn't have to be someone cheating for it not to be a fair game. A judge could rule that it is not fair even if it was the casinos fault that it wasn't fair and the judge could still demand the money returned. As someone else pointed out that is pretty much why slot machines have a disclaimer that malfunctions void all pays.
Keyser
Keyser
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February 9th, 2017 at 2:54:25 PM permalink
If the machine was malfunctioning, then wouldn't the casino be required to refund money to all of the people that also lost money? Hmmm...


Besides, if that's the case, then are skilled poker players changing the element of chance on the poker machines? How about the bonus hunters and progressive slot players?
Nathan
Nathan
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February 10th, 2017 at 1:17:43 PM permalink
About slot machine malfunctions I remember hearing somewhere that a guy kept getting huge wins on a $1 bet. He ran up his wins to roughly $8,000(He didn't have to pay taxes because all of his wins were under $1200. ;) ) He said, "I'd better stop playing and cash out before the casino staff realizes that this game is paying all too well!" He cashed out and left, and lo and behold, casino employees came roughly 2 minutes later, checked the machine, shut it down and put a "Out of service, sign on the machine. ;)
Guy "won" less than his bet and the slot machine had the audacity to tell him he got a big win! SMH! Also, the Nintendo cartridge is so much more important than the Nintendo console. Without the cartridge, the Nintendo console is just a useless box.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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February 10th, 2017 at 1:58:16 PM permalink
Rereading the .25 second timing, couldn't you just wait for a string of winners. Even if you misses the payout you were looking for, Perhaps the machine had 3 winners back to back within .75 seconds?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Keyser
Keyser
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February 10th, 2017 at 3:57:18 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Rereading the .25 second timing, couldn't you just wait for a string of winners. Even if you misses the payout you were looking for, Perhaps the machine had 3 winners back to back within .75 seconds?



Axel,

We think alike. Perhaps play until you have a reasonable win, begin a count and continue counting until you hit another reasonable win. Next determine the time in between the two wins and repeat. It's a long shot, but maybe.

I always assumed that the machine made millions of decisions per second. I also assumed that the buttons used to trigger a bet had a pause, or rng like function that prevented any kind of rhythm tracking of the machine.
ProfessorSlot
ProfessorSlot
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February 10th, 2017 at 6:56:15 PM permalink
All I can say is I salute this Russian guy. Never knew by just playing with the spin button you can actually cheat the slot machine. He just invest low amount then cash out big amount.
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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February 10th, 2017 at 8:53:54 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I think that is the disconnect. It doesn't have to be someone cheating for it not to be a fair game. A judge could rule that it is not fair even if it was the casinos fault that it wasn't fair and the judge could still demand the money returned. As someone else pointed out that is pretty much why slot machines have a disclaimer that malfunctions void all pays.



Any competent attorney would proceed with

"So this quote malfunction occurs on a regular basis and only if someone depresses the button at a specific time but you continue to allow the endlessly repeating malfunction to continue without fixing. Oh and this particular malfunction occurs on multiple machines different titles in different casinos worldwide and thr machine gives no notice of malfunction to either the player or casino except through a separate audit and that is your definition of a malfunction?"

If it were me i would definitely let a jury decide that one. Lets see how the average person agrees with that

Edit: obviously i was not quoting in true lawyer speak for those anal minded people on here
sltploppy
sltploppy
Joined: Feb 5, 2017
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March 4th, 2017 at 2:51:28 AM permalink
I tend to agree with the argument laid out by darkoz if someone could use their brain. Also, this is clearly not a machine malfunction or bug. The Russians figured out the inputs that the RNG uses to generate it's "Random Number" results. They then created an app with an algorithm that mimics those inputs and suggests when the RNG would produce "Random Number" that would result in a winning spin. If you read the article the "solution" to the issue here is to replace the PRNG in every machine that shares the same inputs to produce it's "Random Number" result. The manufacturer and casinos are making the right business decision given the capital required to take that action and the sophistication required to exploit the input determination along with the knowledge that they can collect winnings or a percentage of the winnings back from anyone found to be exploiting this knowledge.

To prevent others from deconstructing the PRNG input algorithms recent models are having encryption built into the chip.

I have to give the Russian team credit though - deconstructing a RNG algorithm from slots salvaged in the Russian casino shut down is a pretty innovative idea.

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