Darkside = MUCH lower House Edge than Passline!
Thread Rating:
But on a long roll with Passline/Come, you leave $ on the table when the 7 eventually shows up.
That *HAS* to increase the HE from the players perspective. You're not taking in all the $.
It's like tipping the dealers 5% when you leave.
Example:
Excluding the odds bets, the house edge on the pass line is 3.88% and the house edge on the don't pass is 3.76% if you tip the dealers 5%.
Example2:
Banker in baccarat = 1.06% HE
5% tip on winning bets ups the HE to 3.35%
Thread about how tipping affects the HE:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10935-house-edge-if-you-include-5-tipping/
In my lastest thread about a long roll, i left 1/3 of what I won on the table when the 7 came.
That's like giving the casino a 33% tip!
When playing Dont Pass, there's no $ left on the table. When you win, all $ comes to you.
If I'm wrong, where's the hole in my logic?
At the end of the day, there are very few right side players that leave the table in the black, and most have losses that far exceed 1.4%. But such is the cost of entertainment. Can you guess how I play?
Ask yourself this, however. When the casino "teaches" you how to play in those free sessions, what do they "teach?" What makes them the most money.
Quote: darthvader... most players press any winnings that they get. On a hot roll, this results in a big win. However, on most rolls, this simply gives most, if not all, of the winnings right back to the casino. You will even hear banter about "playing with the casino's money" as a rationalization for the pressing. No such thing. Chips in the rack are the player's money, and each bet is independent.
Yes. Although there are many "grinders" who just stand there making endless minimum bets against the house edge, most players seem to "press their luck" by using winnings to increase their bets and referring to this as "the casino's money" is a way of providing themselves some comfort as they hope for the big win to materialize.
Of course even someone who has their money in the Don't, when they get that dealer's fist next to the bet rarely take "their" money back, they just leave it there as another bet on the Dark Side. Dark Side bettors often comfort themselves by thinking they are betting on the side of the casino and gleefully lay odds for the more-likely event. All the while hoping for a fairly short roll to take place.
Neither "Right Siders" nor "Wrong Siders" have any of the casino's money to bet with. That "casinos money" are prior winnings that the bettor has already purchased through exposing the funds to risk. Its the Bettor's money ... but neither Right Side nor Wrong Side bettors seem to act that way soon enough.
Quote: 100xOddsThe HE is ~1.4% for both Pass and Dont Pass.
But on a long roll with Passline/Come, you leave $ on the table when the 7 eventually shows up.
That *HAS* to increase the HE from the players perspective. You're not taking in all the $.
In my lastest thread about a long roll, i left 1/3 of what I won on the table when the 7 came.
That's like giving the casino a 33% tip!
When playing Dont Pass, there's no $ left on the table. When you win, all $ comes to you.
If I'm wrong, where's the hole in my logic?
At the end of a long roll with bets on pass/come, yes one leaves $$ on the table, but during the same long roll a DP/DC player has been losing all along, finally winning when the seven-out comes. The ev's are almost exactly the same.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: darthvaderUsing a sports analogy, playing the right side with pressing is swinging for the fences at every at bat. Once in a while, you will hit a home run. Most of the time, you will strike out. Playing the darkside results in lots of singles and a higher % of winning sessions.
Actually, there is very little difference between pass and DP, in terms of ev, standard deviation or skew. The odds bets are skewed oppositely, but this difference decreases pretty fast as you have more decisions.
Of course, if a "rightside" player tends to bet progressively and a "wrongside" player doesn't, the skews will be very different, but it's not inherent in the bets themselves.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: 100xOddsThe HE is ~1.4% for both Pass and Dont Pass.
But on a long roll with Passline/Come, you leave $ on the table when the 7 eventually shows up.
That *HAS* to increase the HE from the players perspective. You're not taking in all the $
If I'm wrong, where's the hole in my logic?
Yes the 7 has to come eventually, just like the hard 6 has to come eventually, just like any roll has to come eventually. It doesn't affect the house edge at all.
Pass/come bets will be profitable if the 7 comes later than expected and will lose if the 7 comes as expected or sooner than expected. Hard 6 bets will be profitable if the 3/3 comes sooner than expected and will lose if it comes as expected or later than expected.
Just because a Pass/come player has bets out when the 7-out hits doesn't affect the house edge one bit. Having multiple bets up means you win more when you win and lose more when you lose.
Of course, it will increase TOTAL money lost but the RATIO of money lost stays the same (which is house edge)
Takes money to make money.Quote: 100xOddsIn my latest thread about a long roll, I left 1/3 of what I won on the table when the 7out came.
That's like giving the casino a 33% tip!
Just like a business.
Gots incomes and expenses.
And
not all businesses make money the longer they are in business
not all craps players make money the longer they play craps
Quote: goatcabinQuote: 100xOddsThe HE is ~1.4% for both Pass and Dont Pass.
But on a long roll with Passline/Come, you leave $ on the table when the 7 eventually shows up.
That *HAS* to increase the HE from the players perspective. You're not taking in all the $.
In my lastest thread about a long roll, i left 1/3 of what I won on the table when the 7 came.
That's like giving the casino a 33% tip!
When playing Dont Pass, there's no $ left on the table. When you win, all $ comes to you.
If I'm wrong, where's the hole in my logic?
At the end of a long roll with bets on pass/come, yes one leaves $$ on the table, but during the same long roll a DP/DC player has been losing all along, finally winning when the seven-out comes. The ev's are almost exactly the same.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
WELCOME back Alan ! You have been sorely missed.
Quote: 100xOddsThe HE is ~1.4% for both Pass and Dont Pass.
But on a long roll with Passline/Come, you leave $ on the table when the 7 eventually shows up.
That *HAS* to increase the HE from the players perspective. You're not taking in all the $.
It's like tipping the dealers 5% when you leave.
Example:
Excluding the odds bets, the house edge on the pass line is 3.88% and the house edge on the don't pass is 3.76% if you tip the dealers 5%.
Example2:
Banker in baccarat = 1.06% HE
5% tip on winning bets ups the HE to 3.35%
Thread about how tipping affects the HE:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10935-house-edge-if-you-include-5-tipping/
In my lastest thread about a long roll, i left 1/3 of what I won on the table when the 7 came.
That's like giving the casino a 33% tip!
When playing Dont Pass, there's no $ left on the table. When you win, all $ comes to you.
If I'm wrong, where's the hole in my logic?
You're wrong.
If you are pressing when you play right side and not when you play dark side, then of course you will lose more money in the long run. This is not because the house edge is higher; it's because you are betting more money with that edge.
If you press the same amount (or don't press at all) and you bet about the same amount of money then you will lose about the same amount. You long-term losses will be house edge multiplied by amount bet. You can't change that by structuring your betting patterns differently -- this is exactly what all the betting system crackpots are trying to do.
Expected loss = house edge x total amount bet. That is all that there is to it. If you get something different, you are making a mistake.
It is true that the distribution of your results will be different when playing right way vs dark side, but this has nothing to do with expectation. Leaving the money on the table when you lose is not "like tipping"; it's losing a bet that you made. The fact that when you lose playing dark side you lose one bet at a time over several rolls, vs losing all your bets at once on one roll is irrelevant. This does not change the EV.
Quote: RaleighCraps
WELCOME back Alan ! You have been sorely missed.
Thank you, Raleigh Craps!
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: RaleighCrapsWELCOME back Alan ! You have been sorely missed.
It *has* been a long time and your absence was noticed and missed!
For just the money on the line, you're looking at about the same edge. Where the extra edge comes from is the money you're putting on odds, on which you're getting less. Really, at the end of the day, you're gauging your money by the amount you've put on the line, I imagine - or does playing the dark side send you to the $10 tables when you'd otherwise be playing $25, since you'll be staking more ultimately? If not, it's about the same edge. You're only getting rated for your line bets, that I can tell you.
(Note that in terms of variance, you're doing about the same. It's slightly less because of the pushes vs. one-unit losses on 12, but otherwise the losses and wins exactly mirror one another, and most are much larger, so since the variance is based on the square, it's a wash.)
Your logic, though, is lousy. It would be quite easy to conceive of a game where your losses are all at once, yet the wins make up for it, giving a positive edge vs. your opponent's negative one. Say you're hosting a roulette wheel - your losses are massive when they hit, but the money you take in makes up for it, whereas your opponents are losing money chip by chip.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceLeaving the money on the table when you lose is not "like tipping"; it's losing a bet that you made.
ahh.. lets say (by some miracle) i timed it right and took all my pass/come odds down just before the 7 hits. the reason i have more $ is that I didnt make a bet?
THX!
You just go ahead and see how that works out for you.Quote: 100xOddsahh.. lets say (by some miracle) i timed it right and took all my pass/come odds down just before the 7 hits. the reason i have more $ is that I didnt make a bet?
THX!
I'm seeing a definition problem here.
"Leaving Money On The Table" is what exactly? It's losing your bet(s).
If you put a chip on the don't pass and after 10 rolls, the shooter makes his point. Is that also "Leaving Money On The Table"? Sounds the same to me.
The right side player tends to press wins more often, and thus ends up with more money on the table when the 7 out hits. For a 7 out, the right side player may lose 3, 4, 5, or even 6 bets all at once.
The dark side player rarely plays more than a couple of numbers at one time. And even when they do, they only lose one bet at a time. So even a DC bettor, who runs into someone who throws six 6s in a row will only lose 1 bet on each throw.
However, when you look at total action by both players, if they have bet the same amount of total action, then their expected loss to the house is going to be about the same. Again, the biggest difference is the right side bettor will likely end up losing many bets at once.
Quote: RaleighCrapsI think everybody is basically saying the same thing.
The right side player tends to press wins more often, and thus ends up with more money on the table when the 7 out hits. For a 7 out, the right side player may lose 3, 4, 5, or even 6 bets all at once.
The dark side player rarely plays more than a couple of numbers at one time.
What you say may be true, but it really has nothing to do with the right vs. wrong question, i.e. the bets themselves. There's no reason that a don't player would not press or make multiple DC bets. If they both put the same amount of money at risk, their expected losses are very close to the same. Darkside odds have an opposite skew, but even that difference diminishes pretty quickly as more bets are made, and the higher probability of winning lay odds bets takes hold.
The original subject line is a false statement.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: vert1276I have been felted both ways both P/L and Darkside.....I maybe play darkside like 10% of the time...just had way to many outings of getting my don't come bets getting picked off one after another after another.....nothing more disheartening than that
Oh yeah. My last time out, what I had left was cleaned out by a kid who had no idea what he was doing shoot off four hard 10s in a row.
Quote: VenthusOh yeah. My last time out, what I had left was cleaned out by a kid who had no idea what he was doing shoot off four hard 10s in a row.
ya had that happen to me to many times....one time it was 5 times in a row some guy picked off my 4...$10 DC with $50 odds...lost $300 in about 2 min...was done playing dark side for a while LOL
Quote: vert1276I have been felted both ways both P/L and Darkside.....I maybe play darkside like 10% of the time...just had way to many outings of getting my don't come bets getting picked off one after another after another.....nothing more disheartening than that
best strat for dark: one large DonT Pass
no Dont comes
Quote: darthvaderTo all those who got creamed once and lost faith in the dark side: IMO, you must have an exit strategy so that one hot shooter does not wipe you out. In my case, if I lose one big odds bet I am done with that shooter (taking down remaining odds). Then wait for the next one before going big again.
I don't believe in superstition.....just because he has picked off some of my don't come bets doesn't mean he is any less or more likely to roll a 7 on the next roll....
Quote: darthvaderTo all those who got creamed once and lost faith in the dark side...
Nah, I'm non-denominational. I go into this expecting to be creamed regardless of which side I'm on.
The trick to winning is not getting greedy. It's harder not to get greedy the bigger you bet .. Just my humble o.
