Lucky Cat Blackjack
BTW, I hear they use pay table 2 (the stingy one) at the Golden Nugget, but do pay 3 to 2 on blackjack.
On Rule-3 you have it as:
Each Lucky Cat die has a picture of the Lucky Cat on one side and are blank on the other four.
I think you mean Five (5) and not four.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI'd play this with the good paytable. I predict it won't stick though. Just my uninformed opinion, I wish Geoff the best 🙂
Me too. After 6-5 BJ and triple-zero roulette, my opinion of the average gambler's math skills has sadly diminished. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if this were a hit. Casino are very hungry for blackjack games with a higher house edge, as 3-2 games are not very profitable. This will be nearly the same speed as regular blackjack and I think most players will like the dice. When I was in Brussels there was a blackjack side bet involving dice and the players seemed to love it, fighting over betting spots. I was the only one not playing it.
Quote: WizardMe too. After 6-5 BJ and triple-zero roulette, my opinion of the average gambler's math skills has sadly diminished. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if this were a hit. Casino are very hungry for blackjack games with a higher house edge, as 3-2 games are not very profitable. This will be nearly the same speed as regular blackjack and I think most players will like the dice. When I was in Brussels there was a blackjack side bet involving dice and the players seemed to love it, fighting over betting spots. I was the only one not playing it.
I’d like to know how triple zero roullette is doing in casinos that offer it. Particularly in casinos that have a European wheel also.
Quote: jackmagic777Which casino will be first to offer the skinny pay table and 6 to 5 for a blackjack ?
...I would assume this will be the norm for the game.
Quote: jackmagic777" Get paid multiple odds when dealer busts with 22 " when actually almost half the time you will not get paid at all. This game is my nomination for RABBIT HUNTER of the year award.
Yeah. How often on average does a dealer bust with a 22? And since the odds are basically 50/50 that the bonus will even give money, how many hands on average will you have to play in order to receive an actual payoff?
Quote: GialmereGratz and good luck to Switch especially for the rarity of adding to a game without it costing the players more money to get in on the action. However, I can't see a casino giving players something without a catch so....
...I would assume this will be the norm for the game.
Yeah. How often on average does a dealer bust with a 22? And since the odds are basically 50/50 that the bonus will even give money, how many hands on average will you have to play in order to receive an actual payoff?
You should see a "winning" lucky cat roll a couple of times an hour on average.
Quote: WizardI'm planning to stop by around 4:30 and hope to see some WoV members. I just did an analysis of the game. My page on this game still isn't done, but here is what I have so far: Lucky Cat Blackjack.
BTW, I hear they use pay table 2 (the stingy one) at the Golden Nugget, but do pay 3 to 2 on blackjack.
The stingy paytable? Ouch. I wonder if strip casinos will be extra greedy and offer 6 to 5 and payable 2. I'd hope not. :(
I semi-predicted how the game would work on the other forum I post at today with the same exact mechanism of dice with one lucky cat face and 5 blank faces, but made an example of only 3 lucky dice that paid 2, 3, and 8 to 1 respectively and pushed with all blanks. That added about 0.42% to the house edge before strategy changes. I thought that was fair. Paytable 2... not so much. :(
One nice thing about this mechanism from the casino's perspective is that you could fine tune the house edge very well with different "lucky cat" paytables.
Thanks for the write-up! Hope you get lucky and get a 4 lucky cat roll tonight! That might hurt Geoff though...lol
Quote: michael99000So if I bet $500 on my bj hand , get a split , stay alive , the dealer busts with 22, then four cats show up , boom I win $100,000
Plus $1,000 for your two bets!
Quote: michael99000So if I bet $500 on my bj hand , get a split , stay alive , the dealer busts with 22, then four cats show up , boom I win $100,000
On pay table 1, yes. On the Golden Nugget pay table 2, it would be $1,000 * 50 = $50,000.
Quote: smoothgrhPlus $1,000 for your two bets!
That $1,000 is just getting your own money back. The net win is $50,000 on pay table 2.
Quote: WizardOn pay table 1, yes. On the Golden Nugget pay table 2, it would be $1,000 * 50 = $50,000.
This seems like the type of wager where casinos set a max aggregate table payout per hand , such as I see on the Lucky Ladies side bet, or the let it ride progressive
They aren’t going to want a table full of players betting black and purple chips on their hands, with a side bet where everyone winning is correlated and possibly having to pay out a quarter million dollars. Especially when the bonus required no additional wager beyond the normal bj bet
Quote: NathanI don't get the Posters saying there is a potential you won't get paid a cent if the Dealer has 22. Everytime the Dealer busts you win money, right? I USED to have a Blackjack App so I was a little more keen on how it worked but got rid of that app a long time ago, so.....;)
Geoff Hall games all have the catch that all hands push on Dealer total of 22
Depending on US treaties, if a non-resident alien, you may be taxed at 30% and NOT allowed to deduct gambling losses.
Quote: jackmagic77750k to compensate for the hundreds of times you did nor win 1k when the dealer busted with a 22. What a deal, don't forget to pay your takes. House will withhold 12K, If they don't like your ID or SSN, they will withhold 14k. Some states may withhold also WV 6.5%
Depending on US treaties, if a non-resident alien, you may be taxed at 30% and NOT allowed to deduct gambling losses.
You only get a W2-G on a table game if it is 300x your wager.
WAIT A MINUTE If you win on an ETG blackjack game, dependent on the state, you may be issued a W2G if payout exceeds $1,200. I know Stadium BJ is classified as slot machines in PA ! Withholding would kick in at 5K
Quote: jackmagic777My mistake, but if it is 300 to 1, and over $600 all the above applies. Plus we must always report our winnings. It is the American way.
WAIT A MINUTE If you win on an ETG blackjack game, dependent on the state, you may be issued a W2G if payout exceeds $1,200. I know Stadium BJ is classified as slot machines in PA ! Withholding would kick in at 5K
Electronic table games are considered slots for W2G generation purposes.
Quote: michael99000This seems like the type of wager where casinos set a max aggregate table payout per hand , such as I see on the Lucky Ladies side bet, or the let it ride progressive
I should have asked about that. There was another player at the table betting up to $100 or so, so this is not a trivial question.
Quote: beachbumbabsElectronic table games are considered slots for W2G generation purposes.
I can confirm that.
Quote: jackmagic777My mistake, but if it is 300 to 1, and over $600 all the above applies. Plus we must always report our winnings. It is the American way.
WAIT A MINUTE If you win on an ETG blackjack game, dependent on the state, you may be issued a W2G if payout exceeds $1,200. I know Stadium BJ is classified as slot machines in PA ! Withholding would kick in at 5K
This game is highly unlikely to make it to an electronic format. But if it would, congratulations in advance, Switch!!!
I have no idea, at this stage, whether the game will gain more momentum in the future. On the plus side it does have some good features, offering multiple odds without the need for the players to make an additional wager. However, as pointed out earlier in this thread, the majority of rolls will be a 'push' or 1/1 so the question becomes 'How often will a player sit through pushes and even money pays before thinking that the 'big hit' is too extreme?
The dilemma is that on one hand you want to offer high odds for the extreme outcomes BUT, in order to do that, there has to be a high % of ties to cater for that. Alternatively, the dice could be designed in such a way to decrease the pushes but that would also decrease the maximum payout to 10/1 or less. One other way to offset this is to make the players pay for the feature (i.e. a side wager) and then the losses incurred, from the times that the feature does not come up, allows increased payouts for when the feature appears.
I think the bottom line is whether players will accept a built-in multiple odds bonus in return for having a 48% push rate on a dealer 22. Time will tell and I'm on the fence at this stage :-)
Quote: michael99000This seems like the type of wager where casinos set a max aggregate table payout per hand , such as I see on the Lucky Ladies side bet, or the let it ride progressive
They aren’t going to want a table full of players betting black and purple chips on their hands, with a side bet where everyone winning is correlated and possibly having to pay out a quarter million dollars. Especially when the bonus required no additional wager beyond the normal bj bet
You're quite right Michael, the aggregate payout, per player, at The Golden Nugget, is $25,000.
Quote: tringlomane
... ... ...
The stingy paytable? Ouch. I wonder if strip casinos will be extra greedy and offer 6 to 5 and payable 2. I'd hope not. :(
I have the same concerns and hope that on a 6/5 game that Paytable A would at least be used.
A very interesting idea that, on a lucky day, you can win a big multiple.Quote: Switch...The dilemma is that on one hand you want to offer high odds for the extreme outcomes BUT, in order to do that, there has to be a high % of ties to cater for that...
The main feature I can see is that when all four dice show cats everyone wins. So unlike some poker games the casino is taking a bigger risk. With most of those usually only one person can get the large payout (with the Royal Flush). However there was a poker game ( http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/pokertwowaytexasholdem.html ) and I can remember when the dealer got quads everyone got paid out 25 to 1 (I never saw one of the higher payouts).
Mathematically you can devise a payout with fewer ties if you add a second cat to one of the die. A payout of 0 1 2 3 100 is 98.148%.
Another idea, which I like, is to keep the higher payout (sadly 73+ is over book) but introduce a 50% chance of winning with no cats. Another way is to use the dice, for example having another symbol on each and if any one of those appears you get paid if no cats. Sadly as getting another symbol is more likely than 50%, a high payout of 25 is very close if using 1 2 5 25 (I'm guessing because you mentioned 10 you'd already thought of this!)
| 96.834% | Chances | Pays |
|---|---|---|
| No symbols | 19.753% | 0 |
| No cats | 28.472% | 1 |
| 1 cat | 38.580% | 1 |
| 2 cats | 11.574% | 2 |
| 3 cats | 1.543% | 3 |
| 4 cats | 0.077% | 25 |
But i do remember her name was not Roger Snow. Seriously do PA casinos issue W2G on SHFL stadium blackjack ???
You can not gamble back any withholding. LOL If Pacman was still here, he might know the answer.
I just spoke with a Caesars executive about the W2G question. First, he wasn't sure, and said that other issues may play into it. For example, in Maryland the gaming taxes are different between table games and slots. I can't give a specific quote, but he suggested the policies may vary from state to state, depending on other state laws, like the Maryland one, despite the W2G rules being a federal thing.
That said, he thought the rule of thumb was that if the outcome was determined by real cards or dice, then it's a table game. If they are electronic representations of such things, where the outcome is ultimately determined by a RNG, then it's a "slot machine."
This would make for a good Ask the Wizard question, so I welcome any evidence on the topic. It would be nice to have a law or statute to quote.
Quote: WizardFirst, please another look at my Lucky Cat page. I just added a basic strategy and finished off some other details.
I just spoke with a Caesars executive about the W2G question. First, he wasn't sure, and said that other issues may play into it. For example, in Maryland the gaming taxes are different between table games and slots. I can't give a specific quote, but he suggested the policies may vary from state to state, depending on other state laws, like the Maryland one, despite the W2G rules being a federal thing.
That said, he thought the rule of thumb was that if the outcome was determined by real cards or dice, then it's a table game. If they are electronic representations of such things, where the outcome is ultimately determined by a RNG, then it's a "slot machine."
This would make for a good Ask the Wizard question, so I welcome any evidence on the topic. It would be nice to have a law or statute to quote.
The stadium games with a live dealer and live cards but players betting virtually from terminals are treated as Table Games in Nevada. The "bubble craps" and games like that are treated as slot machines.
Quote: FCBLComishThe stadium games with a live dealer and live cards but players betting virtually from terminals are treated as Table Games in Nevada. The "bubble craps" and games like that are treated as slot machines.
That is consistent with what I wrote.
Bubble craps is determined by a real die though, right? Unlike ecraps.Quote: WizardThat is consistent with what I wrote.
Quote: unJonBubble craps is determined by a real die though, right? Unlike ecraps.
Good point. I think because there is no human being in the process and the outcome is determined by a machine, then it is a "slot." However, I clearly could have phrased my previous post better.
Quote: jackmagic777Who rolls the dice? Are they really rolled? As a player I would decline, for sure. I mean half tbe time the players would not win! I'd hate be be the dealer on a hot streak of NO CATS. That can't be good for tips. Switch, any feedback from dealers ???
On the whole the dealers seem to like the game. I missed it but one dealer told me that she had rolled 4 cats but there was only 2 players at the time. One player was still there and he said that he had a $25 wager and received $1,250 but didn't realise that was how it worked at the time - nice surprise eh?
I'm working on some other variations, based on overall feedback and from observing the current game. One positive thing I've noticed is that players are excited when the dealer gets a '22'. The main thing, from my perspective, is to maintain that player excitement for a s long as possible and maybe even to extend the number of times that it happens.
Thank you to everyone for spending their time giving feedback !!!
Quote: Switch
I'm working on some other variations, based on overall feedback and from observing the current game. One positive thing I've noticed is that players are excited when the dealer gets a '22'. The main thing, from my perspective, is to maintain that player excitement for a s long as possible and maybe even to extend the number of times that it happens.
Thank you to everyone for spending their time giving feedback !!!
This doesn't surprise me. Even though the net outcome is tilted toward the house, it's a fun distraction from regular BJ routine and there is a chance you might win big!
Quote: jackmagic777Switch, how much longer will you be in " THE COLONIES " ?
If he is in Nevada, would that count as being in the the "colonies?"
