Casino asked to return wrongly-given payout. Is it wrong/illegal to keep the money?

I was playing money wheel and I bet $10 on the 2-1 payout. I won but instead of giving me $20, the dealer gave me $50. I was quite surprised and I pretended I didn't know what happened. (Yes, I'm not an angel).

So on the next round, I bet $10 each on the 2-1, 5-1, 10-1 and 20-1 payout. Again, I won on the 2-1 and again, the dealer gave me $50. As soon as the chips changed hands, the supervisor noticed the error and asked the dealer how much was the payout.

I immediately walked away from the table. I wanted to cash out and exit the casino but as the chips I was using were not chips with denominations on them (check), I had no choice but to change my colored chips back at the same table where I was playing. I was asked to give back the additional $30. After some arguing, I returned the money.

My question is if I had resisted, would it have been illegal for me to keep the money? Does the casino have a legal hold on me? Am I, in effect, stealing in the legal sense of the word? I'm thinking along the lines that it was the dealer's mistake and his error is my gain. Besides that, if it was at a cashier counter in a supermarket check-out line and a wrong change was given, I am not legally obliged to return the change.

Granted that in this case, I had to exchange the chips for checks. What if in the future I am playing with checks instead? Would security stop me when I exit the casino or if I insist on keeping the wrong payout? I'm asking more in the sense of legality rather than morality.

On a side note, my friend who used to work in the casino said that dealers/cashiers who pay out wrongly are not required to have the mistake deducted from their salary. Any truth on this or does this only apply in Malaysian casinos?

You have to give the money back. People are allowed to make mistakes, that does not make the money yours. You could have tried to get something out of it though, maybe a coffee shop comp or something but even that is not likely. be glad you got one bonus payout. I too would not return the money on my own volition but I had been caught like that I would NOT walk away. Just act confused and give the money back. If you had walked away with real chips you could be considered a cheater or a thief and even if not prosecuted you might have trouble gambling in the future. Even if this is unlikely, is it worth it for a lousy $30? Plus if you fight it they could go back and see that you got paid $50 twice and demand $60 back.

Nareed's Law: you're not responisble for correcting a dealer error in your favor. You may do so, and it may even be the right thign to do. But ultimately it's your choice.

That said, it's like getting the wrong change at the store, or not being charged for an item, or paying for one item and getting two, etc. If they catch the mistake before you leave, they should get their money or items back.

I know as a dealer if we make a mistake the casino usually lets the player keep it in their favor. But if it is a large transaction (large is defined differently depending on what casino) they may ask. I accidentally paid out a flush to a person on the deuces wild game when they only had 3 of a kind, but all the cards were hearts except for one and that was a diamond. Stuff can happen during forced overtime. I did not do it on purpose, but I was so tired and after being on the table for 80 minutes all the cards seemed to become a blur.

Is it wrong to keep the mistake? Yes.

Is it illegal? I don't know. Malaysian laws are quite different than American laws. The severity of punishment for law breaking varies widely between the two countries too (e.g., drug offenses). Best not to quibble about getting caught taking advantage of a mistake by the dealer.

Quote: Nareed

Nareed's Law: you're not responisble for correcting a dealer error in your favor.

Right. But if the mistake is corrected by the floorman, the pit boss, or the dealer, you have to abide by it.
It's only if the error in your favor escapes unnoticed that you may cherish, delight, and celebrate in the wrongfully gotten gains. And it is such if not properly won by the cards or dice. Lord knows we will wail, cry outrage, and bang our chests if an innocent mistake is made the other way. People cannot help but to be people: in search of a free lunch by any means possible.

Again, corrected money is correct money, so abide by it.

Quote: Jerm88200

was playing money wheel and I bet $10 on the 2-1 payout. I won but instead of giving me $20, the dealer gave me $50. I was quite surprised and I pretended I didn't know what happened. (Yes, I'm not an angel).

Apparently.
You were just being human, which is not a compliment per se.
You would have been a rare angel if you had said "Listen, I didn't rightfully win this, - so I am returning it."
If you pretended to "not know what happened," - then you did indeed know exactly what happened, and chose to take cash that you knew you didn't win.
Says it all. That simple.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's only if the error in your favor escapes unnoticed that you may cherish, delight, and celebrate in the wrongfully gotten gains.

I sense you're one semantic disagreement from blocking me, so I'll try to clear this up ;)

I'm not saying players shouldn't correct errors in their favor, only that they're not responsible for doing so.

In fact I've never faced such a situation in my short gambling career. But I've discovered erros in change, in items charged and so on. I will almost always say or do something about it. Not always, because sometimes I discover the error much later, and it's too small to worry much about it.

Quote:

And it is such if not properly won by the cards or dice. Lord knows we will wail, cry outrage, and bang our chests if an innocent mistake is made the other way.

I don't wail, not over amisspayment. I do correct such errors, I admit, when I notice them. But then in such cases Nareed's Laws, if there were a version for the pit crew, would be "The dealer is not responsible for correcting an error in the casino's favor."

To each his own, and as we will do.
Ignore the passion of my POV, I may illustrate by excessively obvious or black-and-white example, or just an exceedingly plain call.

I do believe in Karmic law, in a sense of "you pay now or you will pay later, " and we reap what we sow.
Dealers witness so many karmic lessons that are demonstrated and failed that we become ruined for life.
If a dice dealer is your judge on judgement day, abandon all ye hope.
Dan's law: if it is right by an unbiased observer's POV, (the "shoe on the other foot" so to speak) - try to see it and adopt it.

Dan's law: if it is right by an unbiased observer's POV, (the "shoe on the other foot" so to speak) - try to see it and adopt it.

Then by Dan's law I shall adopt counting at my earliest convenience.

Quote: Paigowdan

I do believe in Karmic law, in a sense of "you pay now or you will pay later, " and we reap what we sow.
Dealers witness so many karmic lessons that are demonstrated and failed that we become ruined for life.
If a dice dealer is your judge on judgement day, abandon all ye hope.

On my last year's Las Vegas trip, Casino Royale had a new dealer at the Crap table. The poor dealer was short-changing people because he couldn't figure the payout for people's pass line odds bets. No malice just inexperience. People would kindly correct him, but that made the poor guy more flustered.

Meanwhile I'm betting the don't which really confused him. I have both a don't pass and a don't come bet up and the point on the don't come rolls up. Lo and behold the dealer doesn't gather my losses but lets it ride for the next roll. It's early in the trip and I figure I'd better not ruin my karma so I have to get his attention and inform him that I'd just lost the bet and he should take my chips.

It didn't help my karma that trip and I'm still waiting to beat the record for longest roll before a 7-out. 8-)

Quote: Paigowdan

I do believe in Karmic law, in a sense of "you pay now or you will pay later, " and we reap what we sow.

Karmic 'law' is about as valid as 'what goes
around comes around'. That everybody gets
their 'just desserts' in the end. Its an urban
legend and an old wives tale. The universe
has no memory of your actions, how could
it. You either pay for your actions immediately
or you don't. Its wonderful to think life is
fair, but its not, and its obviously not.

My fear is that the universe's memory is eternal - and infernal.
And it's that we all do pay, - as we cover the costs that we cost us all.

I never said that life is fair - that's not the consideration. It's enough that I am fair. (I won't let you cheat in either direction.)

And I have heard some argue that life is indeed fair. Consider that:
1. We are here on sufferance, and -
2. When and while God is perfect.
If the above two are true, then we are:
3. here on the sufferance we rightfully deserve. We give it out and we get it back squarely.

I had a childhood friend who, while in college, was a part-time manager of a clothing store for quite a while; he used to rip off its inventory blind, and totally got away with it. He was very clever, and used to brag about it all after moving on...
A few years after this, he designed some childrens' toys (really catchy stuff, hot sellers), and set up a small operation that grew with a small manufacturing and distributing operation. His life seemed assured, or so it seemed, spending as he could afford. Sold toys to the chains. He later and ironically lost the business to insurmountable losses stemming from employee theft that he had thought he had fully covered. (He used to say, "Me, - of all people! I'm a GREAT guy...I just can't BELIEVE this!! HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO ME! What did I do to DESERVE THIS!")

Apparently, some of his workers and trusted accountants were just as clever as he had once been. After he lost it all, - the dream died - he had to resume a daytime job, (to include such things as a limited income, taking crap from the boss, taking orders from his bread-winning wife). He couldn't fathom for the LIFE of him what he did to deserve this result, his business lost, getting underwater with his mortgage, the whole nine yards. Living in a regular apartment with a regular grind job, lucky he didn't fall ALL the way down - or into a bottle, bitter at what he lost instead of what he does still have, mainly due to his wife. I honestly believe the wheels of Karma spun like a turbine in his case, I believe it like a gambler's superstition. Don Lapre #192,487.

Okay, let's try to make this brief, instead of it growing into a 600+ post pissing contest.

You should give the money back.
- PaiGowDan (and a few others) believe that all dealer errors should be corrected by the player if you notice them - it's unethical to do so, and perhaps even illegal.
- Others believe that it's "finders keepers".


- The casino is within its bounds to ask for the money back and given that you could only exchange the money at the table, you're really screwed.

This type of question has been asked before. My position is return the money when requested without an argument. I'm not sure if you legally have to. If I ran a casino and you refused you would be immediately 86'd from the property.

Quote: Paigowdan

I had a childhood friend who, while in college

And there are scads of people who committed terrible
crimes all their lives, like the orig John Rockefeller,
who ended up the richest man in the world and never
suffered any consequences for his actions. He was
a robber baron who put countless men ruthlessly out
of business and caused more than a few to commit
suicide. He would do anything to make Standard Oil
succeed. Karma is another wishful thinking fairy tale
started by people who think life should be 'fair'.

Quote: EvenBob

And there are scads of people who committed terrible
crimes all their lives, like the orig John Rockefeller,
who ended up the richest man in the world and never
suffered any consequences for his actions.

We don't know that. We absolutely don't know that, or what his judgement is, or how miserable he was in life.

Quote: EvenBob

He was
a robber baron who put countless men ruthlessly out
of business and caused more than a few to commit
suicide. He would do anything to make Standard Oil
succeed. Karma is another wishful thinking fairy tale
started by people who think life should be 'fair'.

1. We'll find out, and
2. Stalin brought Russia out of the medieval ages. Rockerfeller employed thousands. And they were bastards. They did a lot of inadvertent or accidental good.

Quote: Jerm882000

I immediately walked away from the table.?

Never act guilty. Always act surprized. You may get away with it.
Dealers salaries are usually so low (in the USA) that recouping errors from the dealer would be a joke.

Quote: Wizard

This type of question has been asked before. My position is return the money when requested without an argument. I'm not sure if you legally have to.

You legally have to return lost and found property to the original owner on request without exception, there is no "finders keepers". Not sure if game payouts qualify however. But if winnings are viewed as contract overpayments, you are obliged to return them if requested, and it can be enforced.

Quote: P90

and it can be enforced.

Clearly it can be enforced but is less likely to be if you are ignorant or appear to be ignorant of what has beeen happening.

We really don't know if Rockefeller suffered consequences.

Quote: Paigowdan

2. Stalin brought Russia out of the medieval ages..

Stalin murdered over 20 million of his own people, totally
on purpose. he should be karma's poster boy. If life was
fair.

Quote: rpw612

We really don't know if Rockefeller suffered consequences.

He lost all his hair and had a bad stomach and lived
to be 99. He didn't drink or smoke or cheat on his
wife and went to church every Sunday. He lived the
idyllic rich man's life.

Quote: P90

You legally have to return lost and found property to the original owner on request without exception, there is no "finders keepers". Not sure if game payouts qualify however. But if winnings are viewed as contract overpayments, you are obliged to return them if requested, and it can be enforced.

This is correct. It is a contract overpayment and you are obligated to return it. It does not, however, violate any criminal laws. The casino's only means of legal force is a civil suit or possibly a gaming commission process. They cannot use physical force to make you turn it over. It is also unlikely they can legally underpay you the amount you were overplayed at the cage, but I have heard of this happening.

It is not theft nor is it criminal to refuse to return overpayment. It also isn't lost or abandoned property.

I would also note that certain types of lost or abandoned property really are "finders keepers," but generally the actual owner has a superior right to the finder. None of that applies here.

Quote: FleaStiff

Clearly it can be enforced but is less likely to be if you are ignorant or appear to be ignorant of what has beeen happening.

It will be explained to the person.

Quote: bbvk05

It is not theft nor is it criminal to refuse to return overpayment.

The IRS is an exception.

If I knew I was being overpaid I would not accept the overpayment. I have been overpaid before and immediately returned the money.

One interesting story from several years ago at Caesars:

The shooter in craps had just made a point of 8. On the next come out roll he rolled a six, but the dealer on my side of the table forgot to move the puck from the 8 to the six.

On the very next roll, the shooter rolled a winner-6. That was no problem for the other side of the table, where the puck was correctly on the 6. But on my side of the table the puck was on 8.

The floorman made the decision to pay the passline and odds for both sides of the table, PLUS even though the 6 was rolled, the place bets on 8 were also paid.

That's what I call customer service and correcting a dealer error.

Yes, and sometimes the Box will discover the discordant "pucks" during a roll, make a ruling and ask right then for anyone to speak up or forever hold his peace. A quick interruption and a generous resolution and the game proceeds. Casinos know dealers get tired or inattentive for a variety of reasons and the casino has no desire to annoy customers or magnify nor perpetuate errors, but when they discover an over payment such as a call from surveillance they may have no choice. Either way: once the decision is announced, that is it. Arguing with the umpire is for the suckers watching the game.

The IRS has a specific statute that covers their request for return of overpayment. That which is not covered by a specific statute is not criminal.

Quote: bbvk05

The IRS has a specific statute that covers their request for return of overpayment. That which is not covered by a specific statute is not criminal.

People have done time for not paying taxes in rare cases, depending on extreme cases.
Even with it not being criminal, they can certain impose restrictions to impact someone's life. Don't tell me this is not true.
Every punitive measure applied over a person shows that someone else has a certain authority to take action against your will or intent, without the need for a criminal court to weigh in. You can get some of your property re-allocated to the IRS, or get 86-ed from a casino, without it being a criminal court matter.
The fact that some issue does not always end up in criminal court or even involve lawyers, doesn't always validate that a person was in the right.

You can be told "no, you broke rules/did something wrong" without a lawyer or judge being required, and without the "casino players'/card counters/chip snatchers" Bill of Rights being shown to you on demand. And the person telling you this may indeed have a certain authority over you; quite often it is "just" a wife or floorman or boss.

" "casino players'/card counters/chip snatchers" " why are card counters linked to chip snattchers ?

deleted

He should keep those opinions to himself. Calling me a cheater is not his inalienable right. Let's try to be civil. This is a friendly forum.

deleted

Quote: buzzpaff

" "casino players'/card counters/chip snatchers" " why are card counters linked to chip snattchers ?

The table games pit crew often takes a "boolean," or a "yes/no" approach,
to customers either being any sort of:
1. a problem player, or a
2. problem-free player,
simply and utterly on those terms. So, yes, casino pit crews to lump "problem players" all together, and have responses that are appropriate for the level of infraction, concern, or rule-breaking, etc.

It's a "who we have to watch" versus a "who we know to be okay" - and in these terms ONLY.
Don't Like it? - too bad. Then don't count cards, feeling you have the right to not be tracked, because you will be monitored.

Again, this is not a "Well! What if it's LEGAL TO DO" kind of thing, or a "Where is IT WRITTEN THAT!" kind of thing, the old "my feelings will be hurt if you do not openly respect us card counter/shot-takers/what-have-you," etc...

- just who do we need to watch in the pit or, on surveillance, for that matter.

If anyone takes offense to how a table games pit critter views a player, they're more than wasting their own time, they're needlessly punishing themselves, as what you care of pit crews opinions should have NO bearing on your life, especially if you're out to try something that the crew might not particularly endorse.

Why care if "John Q. Suit" thinks 'x' or 'y' of you, especially if you going to count or take any action that needs to be tracked in the casino pit?

Quote: bbvk05

The IRS has a specific statute that covers their request for return of overpayment. That which is not covered by a specific statute is not criminal.

In 1993 the IRS over paid me $5,000 in the summer. My accountant
said cash it, its their problem. In Oct I got a letter telling me they
wanted the money back. They said I could pay $100 a month for 5
years, no interest, like a loan. I didn't do anything, I ignored it and
waited to see what would happen. 10 years later (I'm serious) in 2003
I got a letter saying I had to call some IRS lady. She said I owed them
5 grand and they wanted it back. I said I didn't have it and she said if
I didn't pay it, 5 grand would be added to my gross income next year
and I would have to pay taxes on it.

This took a minute to sink in. I finally said 'did you just say what I think
you said?' She was a very nice black lady and started laughing. She told
me thats how the IRS handles over payments when the taxpayer doesn't
send back the money. She said there isn't a day when she wishes they
would overpay her so she keep could the money too. My accountant didn't
even know that how it worked, but got it verified. Its a well kept secret,
most people pay it back.

I love that you got to run an AP against the government.
That really cut into their edge!

Quote:

The IRS has a specific statute that covers their request for return of overpayment. That which is not covered by a specific statute is not criminal.

I don't think so, I think it is civil. There are only a few tax crimes which are statutory and they are rather hard to prove. The big ones are tax evasion, failure to file, and making a false statement on your return.

The IRS cannot actually prosecute you for tax crimes. Their CID (Criminal Investigation Division) can only refer your case to the DOJ in Washington, who will in turn refer it to the United States Attorney for the district in which you live. Very few tax crimes actually get prosecuted, let alone taken to trial. Most penalties are civil.

Having worked in Table Games for many, many years I've seen this many, many times and been on both sides. If a dealer mispays me I put the payout into my stack like nothing ever happened. Proper training, supervision, and procedural enforcement is on the casino. If they want to go to 10 games per supervisor to save payroll then they can eat the extra payout errors. That said, if the dealer is brand new or generally a nice guy I'll lean towards saying something.

If the dealer or floor notices the error and asks for the money back I'll give it back without exception. For sub $1,000 errors I doubt you'll see many casinos try and seize the money at the cage but it's not worth looking like an a-hole and getting expelled over an honest mistake.