Which type of player gets better comps / rating?

My wife had a simple question, but it has a very complex answer.

Her question: If you're a slot player and you sit at a poker table, does that lower your ranking?

My responds was that it's very complex and not easily answered.

We all know slot players are treated better than table games players, and poker players are at the bottom of the barrel. But what about a player who plays multiple types?

I brake it down like this:

Take a player who typically plays 25¢ slots for 8 hours vs a player who plays $1 slots for 2 hours. Are they ranked the same?

If time on the machine is more important, the 25¢ player ranks higher.

If the denomination is more important, the $1 player ranks higher.

If coin-in more important, they rank the same.

Now say the 25¢, 8 hour slots player switches to being a $1, 2 hour player, and spends those other 6 hours at poker. Does this help or hurt the rating?

Because of the above three scenarios, the rating may go up or down based upon the slot change.

But does the 6 hours still in the casino, NOT playing slots, further worsen the rating? Or does it help because that adds to the total action?

Would your response change if those 6 hours were spent at a table game rather than poker?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

If time on the machine is more important, the 25¢ player ranks higher.

If the denomination is more important, the $1 player ranks higher.

I'm not sure what they DO do, but what they should do is rank the $1 player higher. Since there is a fixed cost to having a machine, free drinks, security, etc.... You need less of those things for 1 player versus 4 players.

It's all about your Average Daily Theoretical loss (ADT). The reason slot players get rated better is because they often have a higher house edge resulting in a higher ADT. If you play $20 on slots per day, and I play $2k on table games per day, I'll get rated better than you even though you're a slot player because my action and ADT will be higher than you even though you're playing the worse games.

However, two people playing at the same "level" of money, the slot player will always have a higher ADT because the slots have a higher house edge resulting in a higher expected loss (and thus higher ADT).

So to answer your question: No, you won't tarnish your rating by playing multiple games. If you're going to play 3 hours of slots no matter what, then playing 1 hour of table games only ADDS to your ADT. Now if you were going to play slots for 3 hours then you play 1.5 hours slots and 1.5 hours tables, that will result in a lower ADT because the expected loss will be less on the table games.

Unless poker added a day... I don't think it would affect things in a negative way. It probably won't affect mailers, but I'm confident it would show on backend comps (the theo loss from poker).

I'm going to disagree with SOOPOO. I believe, in this specific situation, a casino should value the quarter player more because variance is lower. What he says is absolutely right, but the cost to house a patron isn't that much, right?

I think trying to surmise anything other than ADT in comp calculations is just a guessing game.

A player spending 1hr/slots and 1hr/table in a given day will have a higher ADT than someone who only played 1hr/slots (assuming identical slot play).

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Take a player who typically plays 25¢ slots for 8 hours vs a player who plays $1 slots for 2 hours. Are they ranked the same?

My guess is that if there is any difference the 25-cent player will be given a little more in comps due to the lower denomination typically having a higher hold. It will be rather small.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Now say the 25¢, 8 hour slots player switches to being a $1, 2 hour player, and spends those other 6 hours at poker. Does this help or hurt the rating?

Slots / tables / sportsbook / poker room are generally kept separate and don't have too much effect on each other. If you bet big enough at more than one of those, it's best to use a host. In the case above, the slot play will be treated roughly the same, and the poker room will give them the standard rate (probably $1 - $2 per hour plus an occasional discretionary comp or mailing).

Actual live poker play? Not so-called video-"poker" on a machine, or some pit carnival game with the word "poker" in the name? Among those casino companies with a presence in the Las Vegas area, the only casinos I'm aware of that would be affected at all in any way whatsoever are Station Casinos using the 'Boarding Pass' player card to log-in, and Caesars Entertainment properties in the 'Total Rewards' system.

At the others making up the majority of poker rooms with the overwhelming bulk of poker games, including the MGM-Mirage properties, Wynn, Venetian, all of Boyd's properties, and on and on, the casino player reward & rating system is completely oblivious to anyone logging-in for their buck an hour comps at the poker room. For example when I'm playing poker at someplace like Mirage it is as if I'm not even there and I don't exist as far as the M-Life system or the rest of the casino is concerned, even though I am logged-in and do accumulate some comps (known only to the poker room) which can be spent for meals. The poker room's tracking doesn't communicate with the rest of the outfit at all. Same is true of what you may do in the book, and the same two companies are the exceptions to that.

If you are at a Caesars or Station property where poker play IS integrated into their system to be counted in their overall property & company player tracking, a rough simplified estimate of what that's counted as being worth to them is about ten bucks per player per hour paid in house rake at a cash game poker table. So if you play four hours of either 1/2NL or 3/6L poker at Bally's that has about the same effect as playing the 'coin-in' required on-average for dusting off forty bucks in a Lobstermania slot machine, regardless of actual result. But if you want to know about that more specifically & precisely, the rate of Tier Credits (Caesars) or Status Credits (Station) is listed on their site. In the case of Caesars Total Rewards, they do vary the TC rate quite a bit by the stakes of cash poker games, even though the actual average house drop per player per hour doesn't really change that way (and they rarely get any higher stakes games running in their rooms, at least in Las Vegas).

Yeah, I knew it was gonna be a complex answer. But I keep forgetting that the ADT is so important. That makes it easier to explain.

FYI: When I said 'poker', I was referring to real, live, poker room poker.


Thanks.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

...Take a player who typically plays 25¢ slots for 8 hours vs a player who plays $1 slots for 2 hours. Are they ranked the same?...

Yes, as described above in my earlier post it's all about ADT. Assuming they have a generic rate for all slots and it's not determined based on the "actual" slot you're sitting at, then the math will work out exactly the same.

HOWEVER, two things to note:

1) If one player is faster than another they'll put more action through and have a higher ADT. So assuming the same playing speed then yes, still the same.
2) If you're using a host, they often like to see the longer hours put in. So in their decisions to personally comp you something your ADT could be the same but they might comp the longer hours of play something at their discretion as opposed to the shorter hours of play.

I hate to disagree with everyone .... Or most
However a lot of this is assumptions by players.
Each property is different
Some send offers based on geographic area, so use adt some use multiple fields of entry to figure play
I also am aware of a particular table game whose adt is higher then most slots in the high limit room.

One thing that people aren't mentioning is that adt is not the end all to be all
Most poker does not create any theo
However some casinos use something called adw or adv
Which is average daily value, That number will take into account hours played at poker.
It's much much more complicated then simply that but all that I'm willing to post in public about it.

https://imgur.com/a/5Bvnq

Quote: Wizardofnothing

https://imgur.com/a/5Bvnq

WoN,

Now you are teasing. :)

Quote: Wizardofnothing

https://imgur.com/a/5Bvnq

Interesting.

Not sure what any of that means, but you've certainly piqued my interest...

Screen shots of what casino hosts see and how offers are genreated

You want to know how casinos rate slot players... just ask the Tray Lizards... "The casinos give you more freeplay according to how you tip the cocktail waitresses".

If you are in a CET casino or whatever the current name of the Evil Empire is, the casino will skim razor thin margins from your account anyway by some unknowable formula so don't bother worrying about it, just play as you like.

Locals casinos are more generous, they have to be.

ALL ratings are based on IMPRESSIONS that is why I bet big and bet for the dealer initially because the Floor is still their processing my card and will see and hear it.

Everyone is going to wind up with more money if they bet according to their desires rather than wasting time looking around to see if the floor is actively rating them at the moment.

Ok that last post lost me entirely...

I've wanted to know this for a while, how is table play rated? Is the rating and the amount on my win/loss form just an estimate? The pit boss is not around enough to accurately see my play, and I doubt someone in the sky is watching me that closely when I'm playing $5 hands.

surveillance doesn't rate players; it watches them, but mainly it watches employees.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Ok that last post lost me entirely...

Okay, I'll explain it to you if I sober up.

I hate alchohal, haven't had a drop since my fraternity days

Quote: Wizardofnothing

I hate alchohal, haven't had a drop since my fraternity days

He said when he sobers up, not you

Lol that's funny I totally read that wrong
My apologies

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Lol that's funny I totally read that wrong
My apologies

Definitely explains why his post needs further clarification lol

Quote: ahiromu

I'm going to disagree with SOOPOO. I believe, in this specific situation, a casino should value the quarter player more because variance is lower. What he says is absolutely right, but the cost to house a patron isn't that much, right?

I don't think they care about variance for players at that level. It should be purely EV. The expected cost of drinks and such exceeds zero, so I would think the $1 player would be rated more highly as well. Or at least not lower.

One other factor is that if I'm playing $1 instead of 25 cents, it may be a signal of some kind that I might have a bigger budget in reserve. I think I was reading a long time ago about Harrah's giving out good offers to people who played high denominations for short times, because they had concluded those players were sometimes high-limit players just killing a few minutes, and they were often going to be worth a lot if you could get them to move their play to Harrah's. So even with a very small theoretical win, Harrah's would send good mailed offers in case that turned out to be the case.