120,000 ft. freefall a record?

Felix Baumgartner plans to ascend to 120,000 feet above Roswell, New Mexico in a helium balloon, then freefall 120,000 feet to set a new world record.

Check out the website (sponsored by Red Bull) here.

My beef with this "record", is that at that altitude a pressurized suit and oxygen system are required to keep him alive. I posit that the suit functions as a small, "space capsule", providing a suitable environment for the human inside. Therefore the real record has to be held by the Apollo 13 astronauts whose, "freefall" could be measured from the far side of the Moon.

I don't think this is such a great feat given the use of a spacesuit. Just about anyone in good physical condition could do it. What do you think? Should his attempt from 120,000 ft. (assuming it is successful) be the record?

The astronauts were also in a capsule.
This guy is just in a suit.
I vote that he deserves the record..

Sounds like a record to me but not as cool as this Crazy Sh!t also courtesy of the folks at Redbull

Quote: Ayecarumba

Therefore the real record has to be held by the Apollo 13 astronauts whose, "freefall" could be measured from the far side of the Moon.

That required a rocket (if you want to be technical, four rockets) and went beyond the atmosphere.

BTW Why Apollo 13? All Apollo Lunar missions ranged about as far, after all. Why not Apollo 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 or 17?

Quote:

I don't think this is such a great feat given the use of a spacesuit. Just about anyone in good physical condition could do it. What do you think? Should his attempt from 120,000 ft. (assuming it is successful) be the record?

I wouldn't do it. Would you? It won't be the first time, either. The Air Force, or maybe the US Army Air Corps, did a similar feat back in the 50s, I think.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I don't think this is such a great feat given the use of a spacesuit. Just about anyone in good physical condition could do it. What do you think? Should his attempt from 120,000 ft. (assuming it is successful) be the record?

This effort has been going on now for about 5 years. There is a serious question about his survival. It's not a dummy operation that any body could do given the right funding.

Quote: Nareed

BTW Why Apollo 13? All Apollo Lunar missions ranged about as far, after all. Why not Apollo 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 or 17?

Because of the explosion, the service module was out of commission, and they had to use a "free return trajectory" to come home. I.E. They sling-shot around the moon, using the moon's gravity to bring them back.

The problem with this assumption is that they were not in free fall all the way from the moon.

At some point on the way back, they used the rocket on the lunar module for course correction.

Additionally, after they jettisoned the service module and lunar module, they were no different than any other Apollo capsule, and could use the command module's control jets for attitude and minor course adjustment.

So, on the basis of THAT criteria, it could have been ANY mission in space to get the award for highest free-fall, and you'd have to check Nasa and Russian records to figure out which one actually gets the nod.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Because of the explosion, the service module was out of commission, and they had to use a "free return trajectory" to come home. I.E. They sling-shot around the moon, using the moon's gravity to bring them back.

Yes, but all Apollo missions orbited the Moon and returned from there. They all saw the "dark" side of the Moon, too, though none landed there.

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The problem with this assumption is that they were not in free fall all the way from the moon.

At some point on the way back, they used the rocket on the lunar module for course correction.

Well, you're not on free fall when you use a rocket. Then you're under acceleration. But again that applies to all apollo Lunar missions. The typical Apollo profile was to coast to the Moon, get captured into orbit there, with course corrections as required, and using the main engine in the service module to break from Lunar orbit and slow down in order to get back home. Apollo 13 differed in that they couldn't trust the SM engine to work after the oxygen tank there went boom. So instead they used the LEM's engine. But as far as disatnce goes, they all went as far.

Perhaps 13 did go a bit farhter, or the Moon was farther out in its elliptical path during that mission, btu thsoe differences are minimal even in the msall distance between Earth and Moon.

BTW no human being has gone past the Moon. Plenty of space probes have, of course, the ones farther out being the Voyagers and Pionneers X and XI, which are currently just outside the Solar System. All other probes are either orbiting their target planets, or resting on their targets, or have taken orbits around the Sun. Except for those that crashed or blew up, of course.

Oh, and not that it's on topic, quite, but SpaceX (Space Exploration Technologies) turned 10 years old this week. Happy birthday!

Quote: Nareed

Yes, but all Apollo missions orbited the Moon and returned from there. They all saw the "dark" side of the Moon, too, though none landed there.

In every case but 13, the command module's rocket was used to get the astronauts out of lunar orbit, so the starting point of the "freefall" would, presumably, be about halfway around the moon between its nearest and farthest points. With Apollo 13, no rocket was used, as they (slingshotted? slungshot?) around the moon in order to head back towards Earth, so the freefall starts from the far side. (I consider "freefall" as being in any direction where the distance between the object and Earth is decreasing.)

Jeez, I'm surprised no one posted this. The current world record is 102,800 feet... Joseph Kittinger.

And he had a movie camera.


Col Joe Kittinger, world record sky dive

AFAIK he's been testing at 13-14 miles already (merely 70000 feet).

There has always been a difference between riding in a spacecraft and taking a spacewalk.

The previous record, as stated above, was 102,800 feet which also obviously required oxygen and a pressurized suit.

This is no different.

Quote: Mosca

Jeez, I'm surprised no one posted this. The current world record is 102,800 feet... Joseph Kittinger.

And he had a movie camera.


Col Joe Kittinger, world record sky dive

I love the shots at the end where his first thing he gets from his ground crew is a cigarette. Such a different time.

Quote: QuadDeuces

There has always been a difference between riding in a spacecraft and taking a spacewalk.

The previous record, as stated above, was 102,800 feet which also obviously required oxygen and a pressurized suit.

This is no different.

This is not a "spacesuit", but a system specifically designed for the specific purpose of getting the wearer back to Earth safely. It serves no other purpose. Even it he were to fall asleep after stepping out of the capsule, the systems in the suit would automatically deploy the drag, main, and even the reserve chutes. He really doesn't have to do anything but step out the door.

If someone set a "free dive" record, but used a suit, a SCUBA, a submarine...

"Free" means "free". You against the world. I think his jump is cool, and I'd like to do it, but it ain't free.

Felix Baumgartner, successfully completed his second test jump. Preliminary altitude of 96,640 ft and freefall speed of about 536mph.
The next flight should break the record of 102,800' set in 1960 and break the sound barrier.

When he does his final jump he could reach the speed of sound at approximately 100,000 ft, that is if his jump begins at 120,000 ft. At that altitude, due to the temperature difference from sea level, Mach 1 would be approximately 690 mph.

Red Bull Stratos team members agree that the projected altitude for Felix's jump is a key factor in achieving mission goals. The same thin atmosphere that presents so many physiological hazards can also be Felix's ally when it comes to going supersonic. The thin air will present almost no resistance, hopefully minimizing the effect of shock waves. Although Felix will be stepping into just 1% of the earth's atmosphere, gravity is still present. He will fall at an accelerated rate up until the point air density begins to increase - he won't fall any faster, in fact his rate of descent will slow down. Moving closer to the ground air molecules increase, the temperature rises, and he will be at his slowest speed just before deploying the parachute at 5,000 ft.


To reduce the likelihood of decompression sickness, his space suit is designed to provide pressure equivalent to the environment at 35,000 feet (still much higher than Everest). The helmet's oxygen regulator will provide Felix with 100 percent oxygen to breathe from various sources (a liquefied oxygen source on the ground before launch, from the capsule's liquefied system when he's onboard, and from a pair of high-pressure gaseous oxygen cylinders during the freefall descent). When Felix exhales, his breath is vented into the suit, designed to maintain its pressure of 3.5 psi (pounds per square inch) during the initial phase of the freefall. The helmet weighs about 8 pounds

I have a few questions for the sciencey inclined:

-- The record attempt is scheduled for 120,000 feet, but how high could a balloon take him if he were to go to the maximum altitude possible? As I understand it, balloons rise because their contents are less dense than the surrounding atmosphere. I assume, at some point there would be so little atmosphere outside of the balloon, it would plateau. Supposedly, "space" starts at 300,000+ ft. Could a balloon lift someone that high?

-- Why do meteors/meteorites, Space Shuttle heat shields and satellites burn up in the atmosphere, but Felix doesn't? Is it a question of speed? How fast would he need to be falling before he would have to worry about getting fried by friction?

Quote: Ayecarumba

-- The record attempt is scheduled for 120,000 feet, but how high could a balloon take him if he were to go to the maximum altitude possible?

You can climb in a balloon untilt he surrounding atmosphere equals the density of the balloon+capsule. How hight that is, I've no idea. It depends on several factors, including the composition and temperature of the gas inside the balloon.

Quote:

-- Why do meteors/meteorites, Space Shuttle heat shields and satellites burn up in the atmosphere, but Felix doesn't? Is it a question of speed? How fast would he need to be falling before he would have to worry about getting fried by friction?

It's speed.

The typical orbital velocity for capsules and shuttles is about 11 kilometers per second, or about 6.85 miles per second. The guy int he balloon will be at rest realtive to the surrounding atmosphere. So his starting speed is zero km/s (about 0.00 m/s <w>). From what paco said, he'll probably hit Mach 1+. That's insanely fast for free-fall, but only a little higher than a commercial jet's cruising speed, and lower than Concorde's Mach 2.2 cruising speed.

Mach 1 at sea-level, if memory serves, is about 240 meters per second, or 0.240 km/s. so you can see it's much slower than re-entry from orbit.

High altitude balloons look woefully underinflated upon takeoff. They expand as they get higher.

Their maximum altitude is a function of their strength offset by weight, and their ability to expand.


Regarding heat shields, it's all about speed.

Spaceships hit the atmosphere at speeds around Mach 20. Friction slows them but creates great heat. In the case of Mercury, Gemini and Apollo, I'm unsure just how slow they are moving, or how high, when they finally deply the parachute.

This guy is hitting the atmoshpere at zero and expecting to get to a top speed of around Mach 1, and will deploy at about 10,000 feet.

Quote: pacomartin

Felix Baumgartner, successfully completed his second test jump. Preliminary altitude of 96,640 ft and freefall speed of about 536mph.
The next flight should break the record of 102,800' set in 1960 and break the sound barrier.

The 120K' ascent will also break the balloon altitude record.

• (96,784') 1957—2 June; Captain Joseph W. Kittinger USAF ascended in the Manhigh 1 gondola.
• (102,400') 1957—19 November: Major David Simons ascended from the Portsmouth Mine near Crosby, Minnesota in the Manhigh 2 gondola for a 32-hour record-breaking flight.
• (102,800') 1960—16 August; In testing a high altitude parachute system, Joseph Kittinger parachuted from Excelsior III over New Mexico. He set still-extant world records for: high-altitude jump; free-fall by falling 16 mi before opening his parachute; and fastest speed achieved by a human without motorized assistance, 614 mph.
• (113,740') 1961—4 May; Commander Malcolm D. Ross and Lieutenant Commander Victor A. Prather, Jr. (US Navy) in Strato-Lab V, using an unpressurized gondola. After descending, the gondola containing the two balloonists landed in the Gulf of Mexico. Prather slipped off the rescue helicopter's hook into the ocean and drowned.

Quote: Nareed

The typical orbital velocity for capsules and shuttles is about 11 kilometers per second, or about 6.85 miles per second. The guy int he balloon will be at rest realtive to the surrounding atmosphere. So his starting speed is zero km/s . From what paco said, he'll probably hit Mach 1+.

Mach 1 at sea-level, if memory serves, is about 240 meters per second, or 0.240 km/s. so you can see it's much slower than re-entry from orbit.

Mach 1 at sea level is 340 meters per second, but at that altitude it should be closer to 309 meters per second.

I've been following 'Fearless Felix' since 2009, as I personally know a couple of the people responsible for the design and manufacture of his pressure suit.

David Clark Company occupies an old unassuming brick building in Worcester, Ma. that looks like every other New England textile mill from the 1800's.

Quote: pacomartin

Mach 1 at sea level is 340 meters per second, but at that altitude it should be closer to 309 meters per second.

Thank you. It's still much slower than orbital re-entry.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Quote: QuadDeuces

There has always been a difference between riding in a spacecraft and taking a spacewalk.

The previous record, as stated above, was 102,800 feet which also obviously required oxygen and a pressurized suit.

This is no different.

This is not a "spacesuit", but a system specifically designed for the specific purpose of getting the wearer back to Earth safely. It serves no other purpose. Even it he were to fall asleep after stepping out of the capsule, the systems in the suit would automatically deploy the drag, main, and even the reserve chutes. He really doesn't have to do anything but step out the door.

When I jump (only at 14,000ft), I still use an AAD which will deploy my chute for me if something renders me unable to. I also wear a jump suit and helmet. Does this mean that all of my skydives don't count as well?

He won't be inside any type of vessel that he will be able to use to control his fall, so I would consider it to be freefalling. The only thing that is going to stop him is hitting the ground, whether or not he deploys a parachute. He has no control of anything else other than body position (tracking, etc) during the fall, so in my book, he deserves the title. The suit just keeps him alive at those altitudes and makes sure he won't go splat!

I have a problem here... so this guy fall out a balloon at ca. 23 miles up, and in falling (dead or alive) breaks the sound barrier. Aren't there certain aeodynamic forces at work here that would
a.) heat the suit quite a bit
b.) cause a shock wave-front to develop on the suit surface (ie the cause of a sonic boom)

Has anyone ever exceeded the speed of sound in a freefall?

Quote: 98Clubs

I have a problem here... so this guy fall out a balloon at ca. 23 miles up, and in falling (dead or alive) breaks the sound barrier. Aren't there certain aeodynamic forces at work here that would
a.) heat the suit quite a bit
b.) cause a shock wave-front to develop on the suit surface (ie the cause of a sonic boom)

Has anyone ever exceeded the speed of sound in a freefall?

a.) Yes the suit will heat up quite a bit
b.) Since he is expected to reach the speed of sound at 100,000' that the low air pressure will minimize the effects of shock waves.

The test run done earlier this week from 96,640' could probably have been done at an altitude slightly higher than the record of 102,800'. But the goal of the project is not just to slip past the free fall record, but to break the sound barrier and also to set a record for manned balloon flight.

Jump in 1960 from 102,800'.

Quote: Scotty71

Sounds like a record to me but not as cool as this Crazy Sh!t also courtesy of the folks at Redbull

Unreal video. Intentional Insanity.

October 8 is the new target date for setting the record.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Felix Baumgartner plans to ascend to 120,000 feet above Roswell, New Mexico in a helium balloon, then freefall 120,000 feet to set a new world record.

Freefall 120000 ft from 120000 ft? That sounds like a very painful world record.

(In all earnestness, I don't think this should count, though. He might as well go down in a capsule. Don't think Kittinger should count, either.)

Quote: 24Bingo

Freefall 120000 ft from 120000 ft? That sounds like a very painful world record.

(In all earnestness, I don't think this should count, though. He might as well go down in a capsule. Don't think Kittinger should count, either.)

Presumably the 1934 jump from 24,000' will stand as the world record using your criteria.

People have climbed Mt. Everest without oxygen. They, like you, believe that sports should only be done purely, without active equipment. So presumably, you can jump from a higher altitude than 24,000' . However, I believe that commercial jumps higher than 14,000' without oxygen are prohibited.

Felix's record (127,852 ft.) has unofficially been broken by Alan Eustace, a Senior V.P. at Google. The new record (135,892.3 ft) has not been certified yet.

Apparently, rather than spend all kinds of money on a capsule to ride up in, Eustace simply relied on the suit to protect him during the ascent. Instead of stepping out of a capsule to start the freefall, explosive bolts were triggered, disconnecting his suit from the balloon... Falling... with style.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Felix's record (127,852 ft.) has unofficially been broken by Alan Eustace, a Senior V.P. at Google. The new record (135,892.3 ft) has not been certified yet.

Apparently, rather than spend all kinds of money on a capsule to ride up in, Eustace simply relied on the suit to protect him during the ascent. Instead of stepping out of a capsule to start the freefall, explosive bolts were triggered, disconnecting his suit from the balloon... Falling... with style.

So this balloon... what is its limit?

I'm imagining the lead up. He sets off and up and up he goes. He knows it's gonna be a long ride, so you set to daydreaming. First you just see the field you take off from. Within a minute, you can see the whole property. A minute later, the neighborhood and a minute after that, the town.

Minutes roll by and you see more and more. From the town to the county, the county to the state. Soon you can see the entire country. Just you, all alone, all by yourself, viewing the entirety of America. You can see the curvature of the Earth as it emits a blue glow of light and life in every direction, out into the blackest nothingness you can imagine. Forget airlines, you are more than twice as high than even the U2 can go. Even an SR-71 cruising by would be some 8 miles below you.

Could you pull the pin? How hard would it be to end that experience?

Quote: Face

Could you pull the pin? How hard would it be to end that experience?

Seeing 10 minutes left on the 02 tank would be a good incentive... hehe

I don't know what the upper limit for a balloon is. That is a good question.

Eustace makes it seem pretty simple. Don't need a multi-million dollar capsule, just strap your suit to the balloon, and off you go. Reminds me of the guy with the weather balloons and the lawnchair... except I think that guy got killed.

Still, If I could, I would go.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Eustace makes it seem pretty simple. Don't need a multi-million dollar capsule, just strap your suit to the balloon, and off you go. Reminds me of the guy with the weather balloons and the lawnchair... except I think that guy got killed.

Still, If I could, I would go.

2 hours of O2 - $70
Puffy coat - $46
SPF 100+ Sunscreen - $9
1 gross balloon - $16

Giddy up =)

I got that feeling like something's missing.... small details are important...

The Interweb says the record for one of these balloons is around 174,000 feet, so there is still room for improvement.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I got that feeling like something's missing.... small details are important...

small detail

parachute?

Hey, man...

Quote: Ayecarumba

Don't need a multi-million dollar capsule, just strap your suit to the balloon, and off you go.

At least I thought of the sunscreen. If you wanted a parachute, you should've asked.