Is divorce ever justified?
Quote: JoeshlabotnikReally????? You don't think anyone would disagree with that??? REALLY????????
I think that quite a few people would view continuing a marriage where one or both partners are unhappy as far worse. You seem to be painting divorce as a selfish act. In reality, it can be a sensible, even compassionate act....
It's like saying "We bought a Mercedes so we can crash it". No one intends divorce when they take their vows. Couples are looking forward to a lifetime of happiness together. Therefore, "Until death do us part" is good, and "divorce" is bad.
If your pursuit of "personal happiness" causes three other people to be equally but inversely unhappy due to your broken promise ... Are you still "entitled"?Quote: Joeshlabotnik...Why do you pooh-pooh personal happiness as a concept? Isn't that something we are all entitled to strive for?
Quote: AyecarumbaDivorce is "bad". I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
I will. Again, I site the case of a physically abusive husband. I think it would be a good thing for the wife if she left him.
Not that anyone asked, but I've advised friends who were considering divorce. My stance is that I cast no judgment about divorce being good or bad. My basic strategy for getting divorced is to take the sum of happiness of everybody involved, including minor children, both ways. If the sum of happiness is greater divorced, then divorce.
Quote: WizardI will. Again, I site the case of a physically abusive husband. I think it would be a good thing for the wife if she left him.
Not that anyone asked, but I've advised friends who were considering divorce. My stance is that I cast no judgment about divorce being good or bad. My basic strategy for getting divorced is to take the sum of happiness of everybody involved, including minor children, both ways. If the sum of happiness is greater divorced, then divorce.
What if the physically abusive spouse realizes the errors of their way, seeks counseling, finds accountability, and changes? Did "good" divorce become "bad"? I don' think so. It was always bad. Allowing for redemption and justice applies to lots of horrible things that are generally categorized as "Worse" in the "For Better or Worse" part of the vow.
Most couples go through hardship, some extraordinarily so. The ones who endure and come out on the other side stronger and more satisfied are the ones who realize that their lives are not their own, and that temporal "personal happiness" is not the same as the eternal "joy" found in a marriage where a husband and wife willingly sacrifice for the good of the other.
Quote: Ayecarumba
If your pursuit of "personal happiness" causes three other people to be equally but inversely unhappy due to your broken promise ... Are you still "entitled"?
Three? Oh, you mean if I divorced all three of my wives at once. I probably wouldn't do that--the paperwork would be a bitch.
And yep, I'm still entitled to seek my own happiness. For that matter, if I am unhappy in my marriage, it's not very likely that my spouse is any less unhappy, so ending the marriage may increase both our happiness--or reduce our unhappiness, if you like.
Quote: MrVYour question is personal; we are speaking generally here.
Here is a related, seemingly insoluble moral dilemna:
If one accepts the notion that breaking wedding vows is "bad," then what is the moral position of one who helps people to get divorced, i.e. their divorce lawyer?
Is an attorney, ipso facto, deemed to be "bad" if he makes his living helping people actualize the breaking of their wedding vows?
This is a chicken and egg question.
You are not a bad person because you assist people with their divorce.
You are a bad person because you are a lawyer.
Breaking a vow can be good it could be bad its not black and white
like most things it has many facets.
Bad men do good things Good men do bad things breaking a Marriage vow cannot be a single determining factor if one is bad or good.
Your vow don't mean jhit once you get a call from her attorney ;-)
I didn't divorce a one of them, it was always the other way around.
But I loved them all, mostly still do.......
I'm a lover.
I couldn't take it any longer
Lord I was crazed
And when the feeling came upon me
Like a tidal wave
I started swearing to my god
And on my mother's grave
That I would love you to the end of time
I swore I would love you to the end of time
So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
'Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive
I'll never break my promise or forget my vow
But God only knows what I can do right now
I'm praying for the end of time
It's all I can do (ooh, ooh)
I'm praying for the end of time
So I can end my time with you
Quote: AyecarumbaWhat if the physically abusive spouse realizes the errors of their way, seeks counseling, finds accountability, and changes?
If he changes, then he would no longer be an abusive husband. However, from what little I know about it, most abusers are full of apologies and promises to stop between beatings. Every situation is different but if there were a track record of sustained abuse with broken promises to stop between them, then I would say that divorce would not only be justified but preferable.
Quote: JoeshlabotnikThree? Oh, you mean if I divorced all three of my wives at once. I probably wouldn't do that--the paperwork would be a bitch.
Wait...three divorces...that is a joke, right? You can't possibly be on here posting about marriage with that kind of marital track record.
Quote: WizardIf he changes, then he would no longer be an abusive husband. However, from what little I know about it, most abusers are full of apologies and promises to stop between beatings. Every situation is different but if there were a track record of sustained abuse with broken promises to stop between them, then I would say that divorce would not only be justified but preferable.
Also, just because a physically abusive spouse stops the actual violence (for however long) doesn't mean he/she has changed as a person. The violence could stop because the abuser perceives that there are too many negative consequences from it (like getting blood all over everything), not from any sudden attack of conscience. The qualities that made him/her an abuser are fundamental, and therefore still present.
And to directly address one aspect of the topic, if one spouse abuses another, emotionally or physically, f$!# the wedding vows. They no longer apply.
Quote: JoeshlabotnikAnd to directly address one aspect of the topic, if one spouse abuses another, emotionally or physically, f$!# the wedding vows. They no longer apply.
Yes. Agree.
Society is changing. The definition of "good" is shifting.
Years ago, I suspect divorce or reporting abuse, for that matter, was the scarlet letter. Divorce has become more acceptable in our culture - for a variety of reasons.
The new level of acceptance can be "good" -- escape an abusive relationship
Or "bad" -- less incentive to work on your relationship, easier to give up
As someone who has been married for 24+ years, I could have given up, and wanted to give up, a number of times. Because I, personally, don't want a divorce (for a variety of reasons) I work hard at maintaining my marriage. There are always ups and downs. Am I 'good' - who knows?
Quote: Joeshlabotnik...f$!# the wedding vows. They no longer apply.
Better clean this up...
Quote: ParadigmBetter clean this up...
OK. Gosh dang the wedding vows.
Quote: MrVOnly murderers have the right to discuss whether murder is right or wrong?
I think not.
Hello, moral relativism.
Let's try another example. Two people dying of the same devastating disease. I don't believe it's even fair for one of those two people to make a definitive call on the second person's choice as wrong or right.* Although of people judging they still probably have the best insight.
But yeah, everyone can decide to make a call on anything anyway.
(*talking about end of life choices)
