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Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
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January 11th, 2017 at 1:18:12 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

This will be the gift that keeps on giving for the next 4 years...
]



It's starting to look like this was a 4chan troll, that buzzfeed in particular, took hook line and sinker.

I'll be much amused either way.
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
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January 11th, 2017 at 3:04:37 AM permalink
Quote: Face



I am exactly one of those "Let 'em suffer" fellas. I feel that simply by living in USA#1, any failure to succeed is nothing short of a failure of self, and as such, that responsibility should lie at that selfs' feet.




I've heard that point of view expressed many times by others. YOU'RE SO VERY PROUD. You're so sure that if you had a prostitute drug fiend for a mother and your older brother and uncle (you've never seen your father) taught you how to sling crack on the streets when you were 9 years old that you would have risen above it all. You're so sure about that. For myself I don't see it that way. I don't think I would have been that strong to rise above it. I don't think I would even have known right from wrong which is basically the legal definition of insanity. I would have known that society sees it as wrong because they're trying to put you in jail. But since everyone in my culture was doing it not really wrong. I probably would have ended up a gang banger who either died very young or spent a lot of time in prison.
everybody wants to go to heaven. but nobody wants to die.
ams288
ams288
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January 11th, 2017 at 4:05:22 AM permalink
Quote: MaxPen

Obama's speech tonight was very fitting, seeing that he is a failed community organizer that couldn't organize any resemblance of universal support. He's like a wide receiver that cannot score. An organizer that only knows how to be a divider using Saul Alinsky tactics...(a book dedicated to Lucifer). Only the low IQ could fall for his lies. Mr. pathetic had to run back to Chicago to find any support for his lame speech. Jimmy Carter is so happy that he has survived to see his legacy of most failed presidency abolished.

It's the end of an error!!



Poor MaxPen. I feel for you.

Turns out those warm liberal tears you've been drinking for the past two months were something else entirely....

The geniuses who thought HRC was running a child sex ring out of the basement of a pizza shop just can't connect the dots on all this trump-Russia stuff....
Face
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Face
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January 11th, 2017 at 8:57:44 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

I've heard that point of view expressed many times by others. YOU'RE SO VERY PROUD. You're so sure that if you had a prostitute drug fiend for a mother and your older brother and uncle (you've never seen your father) taught you how to sling crack on the streets when you were 9 years old that you would have risen above it all. You're so sure about that. For myself I don't see it that way. I don't think I would have been that strong to rise above it. I don't think I would even have known right from wrong which is basically the legal definition of insanity. I would have known that society sees it as wrong because they're trying to put you in jail. But since everyone in my culture was doing it not really wrong. I probably would have ended up a gang banger who either died very young or spent a lot of time in prison.



So proud? More like TOO proud. It has made and continues to make my life far more difficult than it needs to be. But we do what we can to protect our fragile egos, don't we?

In truth, I'm not sure of your charge at all. In fact, I believe I am living proof of ME's stance. I was not born into poverty or addiction, but I was born into a hard working family of country dumb folks. As such, I've had my own difficulties with the simple act of growing up and being an adult. I just turned 36. 36 is when I learned such things as what a premium is, what a deductible is, basic, simple terms that most everyone else knows by the time they hit the road on their own. I just happened to miss that lesson. Now, if I don't even know what a GD deductible is, for no other reason than a gap in my upbringing, how much you think I know about retirement, taxes, savings, 401k's, stocks, health care? If i have such raging gaps in my knowledge about such simple, necessary events, how "stable" am I as a citizen? How far away from my potential am I? How much money is my ignorance costing me, and especially, how much is it costing YOU?

My beliefs are formed off my experiences. They're the only ones I can have, as I can't "take" experiences from anyone else. So when I hear a broad term like "welfare", I translate that into "giving folks money for nothing". I lived in poverty for one full year. $16,XXX with a dependent. I survived. It wasn't fun, I lost 40lbs due to no food, I stuffed jalepenos into a rotten tooth of mine to get an endorphin dump to deal with my back pain. It was no way to live, but live I did. And handing me whatever sum one could bestow on me would have done what, exactly? Given me a happy week? And then what?

ME's stance is different in this regard, and aligns almost EXACTLY with my core beliefs. I don't know what I'd have to go through to accept cash, I just know I've gone through much and ain't never reached that point yet. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I even understand it, but to do so is an act I find to be a close cousin to outright theft. Dunno why that is, but it's how I feel. But you take that cash and invest it into a retraining program, and suddenly, I'm on board. I guess it's no more than "give a fish / teach to fish". I'm not greedy in the slightest, and I'm not near heartless despite some of my more hype postings. But I do have a giant problem with paying others with my money for no reason. I cannot understand it, view it, or see it as anything short of theft. But you take that same money, invest it into a program that will BREAK THAT CYCLE, and I'd be running to the polls with my Yay vote. I'd also be the first in line to sign up for it.

But we gotta start talking, first. We'll never get to these types of things without serious conversation and consideration, and we can't even do the talking part yet. I'd suggest we all do a bit of reading of Mr George Washington, especially the parts about political parties. Perhaps a reading and reflection session can help jiggle us toward where we need to be, instead of this absolutely bizarre trend of rooting for sides like it's a BOS vs PHI game.

Quote: MathExtremist

I think the truth is necessarily more nuanced. Certainly someone who sits on their ass and plays their friend's Xbox instead of getting a job, and then complains about not having any money, is failing of their own accord. But someone who used to be a West Virginian coal miner, then the mine collapsed and the energy companies switched to natural gas mining in North Dakota anyway? That's not their fault. Markets come and go, entire industries are born and crash. I couldn't have been a software developer 100 years ago. The lamplighter from 100 years ago can't find a job today. Our nation's economy has thrived due to the hard work of it's citizens. Turning our backs on those citizens when the market changes and discarding them like so much used newspaper is unjust. We need to recycle the unemployed back into the economy -- and I mean that in the "retrain and re-employ" meaning, not in the "Soylent Green" meaning. We The People includes the economically disenfranchised, and if Government will not be "for the People" -- all of them -- then it has failed in its purpose.

And remember what happens when Government isn't for the People: "...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."



I am absolutely right here with you, but I've a question.

I recall about 5 years ago going on a rant how corps. should have some sort of component where they are judged based on how magnanimous and benevolent they were, as opposed to the simple metric of the bottom line. You chimed in stating that what I was describing was a meritocracy, and then spent some time explaining why it would never work.

I agree that as the "Greatest Nation in the World", none should go hungry, none should go under medicated, none should sleep in the elements without shelter. But isn't your stance sort of rooted in the same core beliefs than my faulty one was some years back?

For sure we have the resources to do all you wish, and probably a ton more besides. But how do you get the public to adjust and conform? People gonna people, IMO, and ain't ne'er not a one of us that I've seen that are gonna sacrifice all that much voluntarily.
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lilredrooster
lilredrooster
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January 11th, 2017 at 9:17:17 AM permalink
Quote: Face



People gonna people, IMO, and ain't ne'er not a one of us that I've seen that are gonna sacrifice all that much voluntarily.




What you're saying in this quote is so very, very wrong. Thousands of people (but nowhere near enough) including myself work extremely hard as volunteers. And sacrifice a significant % of what they have in donations. You're right if you say that few do it. But very wrong if you say that nobody does it.
everybody wants to go to heaven. but nobody wants to die.
Boz
Boz
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January 11th, 2017 at 9:45:25 AM permalink
Just actually listed to Tom Brokow state that no President has went after a news organization like Trump did since Nixon. And they wonder why there is little respect of the media. How quick they forgot Obama telling people to stop getting information from Fox News.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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January 11th, 2017 at 10:20:27 AM permalink
Quote: Face

ME's stance is different in this regard, and aligns almost EXACTLY with my core beliefs. I don't know what I'd have to go through to accept cash, I just know I've gone through much and ain't never reached that point yet. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I even understand it, but to do so is an act I find to be a close cousin to outright theft. Dunno why that is, but it's how I feel. But you take that cash and invest it into a retraining program, and suddenly, I'm on board. I guess it's no more than "give a fish / teach to fish". I'm not greedy in the slightest, and I'm not near heartless despite some of my more hype postings. But I do have a giant problem with paying others with my money for no reason. I cannot understand it, view it, or see it as anything short of theft. But you take that same money, invest it into a program that will BREAK THAT CYCLE, and I'd be running to the polls with my Yay vote. I'd also be the first in line to sign up for it.

I give my kids money and resources for no reason. Well, not for no reason, it's because I care about their well being and development. But they didn't earn it in the economic sense. They're barely able to clean up their own dishes. You may have seen an economic analysis recently that says the cost of raising kids is over $230k each. But I'm incurring that expense because I know it's an investment that will pay off. My parents' investment in me paid off, now I'm paying it forward to their grandkids. Their investment contributed to my economic success, and I expect that mine will contribute to my kids'.

It's not much of a stretch to conclude that similar investments that don't happen to fall along blood lines would reap similar returns. But just as you can make good and bad investments, you can implement good and bad social policy. If I send my kids to college, that's a good policy. If I just give them $200k (the ballpark cost of that college education), that's less good. Sure, they might figure it out, but not necessarily. I'd note that there is some research indicating that a universal basic income is not bad social policy, but $200k is not "basic income", so there's obviously a line to be drawn.
Quote:

For sure we have the resources to do all you wish, and probably a ton more besides. But how do you get the public to adjust and conform? People gonna people, IMO, and ain't ne'er not a one of us that I've seen that are gonna sacrifice all that much voluntarily.

What if they don't? What if it's entirely voluntary? What if the folks who want to live in a mutual-benefits society agree to pay the tax, and the libertarian folks don't, and we divvy up social benefits accordingly? We could either do that with a tiered government system or with a basic, minimalist government and non-profit corporations taking up the slack.

If you could join a corporation as an employee where you worked zero hours, and the terms of your employment were that you sign a contract that for the next 20 years, you would either (a) fork over 75% of your actual job's income or (b) work for a small salary within the corporation, in exchange for "corporate benefits" including food, shelter, clothing, health care, transportation, education, and all other basic needs, would you? Would you fault someone else who did?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
ams288
ams288
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January 11th, 2017 at 10:20:50 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

Just actually listed to Tom Brokow state that no President has went after a news organization like Trump did since Nixon. And they wonder why there is little respect of the media. How quick they forgot Obama telling people to stop getting information from Fox News.



I assume Brokaw was referring to Trump and the CNN guy at today's "press conference."

If you can find an example of Obama going after someone from FOX like that, be my guest. But you can't.
The geniuses who thought HRC was running a child sex ring out of the basement of a pizza shop just can't connect the dots on all this trump-Russia stuff....
Face
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Face
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January 11th, 2017 at 10:50:40 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

What you're saying in this quote is so very, very wrong. Thousands of people (but nowhere near enough) including myself work extremely hard as volunteers. And sacrifice a significant % of what they have in donations. You're right if you say that few do it. But very wrong if you say that nobody does it.



Apples and oranges, IMO. We're talking passed each other.

You never have and you never will hear me complain about grassroots support. Soup kitchen at the church, what KJ did with homeless kids, I've never said a word against it. You perhaps may have heard a critique or two when things get national. When something like Wounded Warriors spends more on corporate meetings than they do their top service, yeah, I'm gonna say something and peer with suspicious eyes.

But even that I comment more as an addition to a convo than a staunch belief, because that's all voluntary. It's precisely .gov, the topic ME and I are discussing, where I get hype. And it's not a lack of compassion that fuels it. I suppose it's lack of control.

Giving for free solves nothing whatsoever, in my experience. I totally draw a parallel with conservation. You give for free, or give what does not naturally exist, and what you wind up with is dependents that cannot survive of their own accord. You wind up with a society that cannot support itself, which drags down several related or adjacent systems, lowering the quality of the entire ecosystem. Feeding deer might be "compassionate", but what you'll find is problems galore as those who should have moved on instead stay, skills necessary to survive stagnate, and the only way to continue supporting the system you've created is to pump more and more resources into. Resources that do nothing long term except continue to grow your problem exponentially. By that time you can't even stop, because you have made the entire area dependent and to stop means chaotic death.

How is this any different when applied to humans?

ME's idea tackles that. His idea does not let skills stagnate, his idea GIVES those skills. It's still "charity", it's still "taking my money involuntarily", yet he's found the ground that can survive given my beliefs and experiences. AND, does so in a way that, IMO, is leaps and bounds better than current, and shows real promise.

I'm not sure what part of my side you have a problem with.
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SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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January 11th, 2017 at 11:20:25 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

If you can find an example of Obama going after someone from FOX like that, be my guest. But you can't.

James Rosen.

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