Poll

5 votes (15.15%)
2 votes (6.06%)
18 votes (54.54%)
No votes (0%)
1 vote (3.03%)
4 votes (12.12%)
6 votes (18.18%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (6.06%)
1 vote (3.03%)

33 members have voted

Mission146
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Mission146
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July 16th, 2017 at 8:08:42 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I have to disagree. Quality or service may go down, but prices don't necessarily go up. Walmart and McDonalds being two examples.

I'm sure there are also counter examples but just pointing out it does not necessarily follow.

I mean I'd actually be surprised if either of those companies became even more of a bargain to the customer if they converted to tipping.

Maybe you wouldn't wait in a line as long and food and service would be better. Maybe more smiles.

Cheaper because of tipping? I doubt it.

edited for last line



I agree with your examples, except I'm not sure what McDonald's and WalMart have to do with the tipping discussion at hand.

The reason that I say that is because McDonald's and WalMart, and especially WalMart, are two locations that tend to be operating on a fatter profit margin relative to total sales than an Applebee's sort of thing.

Furthermore, when you talk about wage increases, you're talking about something along the lines of minimum wage going up, so in those terms, you're not looking at as huge of a percentage difference per hour as you would be if you immediately more than doubled the wages for a server at a restaurant.

Additionally, it is important to keep in mind that the Federal Government (as do most State Governments) mandates that the earnings of a tipped employee must be increased to the regular minimum wage in the event that the direct wages + tips fall short of that. I also don't think that you could start people on the notion of regularly tipping cashiers or drive-thru attendants, since those people do not normally receive tips as it stands now. Therefore, making them, 'Tipped employees,' would basically be in name only and actual direct wages would not go down much at all.

I do agree that there are things that a company can do aside from raising prices if costs go up due to a wage increase. One of those things for a proper restaurant is to have fewer server hours, but that's why I already assumed we were at bare minimum staffing hours when I did my analysis of it. I mean, could you realistically go one server at all times, or one with two servers sometimes, at a restaurant in which you probably have thirty or more tables?

You could cut staffing in the kitchen to try to make up for it. You could cut servers. You could try to cut food costs.

The problem with cutting other costs rather than raising prices is that such has an impact on the customer experience. If I go from having a waitress come and check on the table every eight minutes to every twenty minutes, then drinks, appetizer, entree takes an hour, minimum, just to get to me and I am not pleased. If the food goes to crap, not pleased. If you have one fewer cook and the entree takes thirty minutes after I am done with the appetizer to get out to me as opposed to hitting my table almost immediately after I am done with the appetizer...again...not happy.

You really can't screw with the dining experience too much.

Besides, like I said before, the whole thing doesn't really hurt the tippers. If you went into a restaurant with an expectation of tipping and your total was $40, then you would tip $7.20 (18%) and your total out of pocket would be $47.20. If they raised prices by 20% in response to the wage increase, the dinner would just cost you $48, which is an out of pocket increase of $0.80 to you.

That's the thing, when you go from tipping to not tipping, the total price difference is almost unnoticeable for those who previously tipped. Like I said, I tip 30-40%, so I SAVE money in this scenario. ZK tips 0%, so he gets to either pay more or not eat there at all.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 16th, 2017 at 8:13:08 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

If they try and raise prices or make blackjack unplayable, then everyone needs to stop going to these places until they revert back to what is normal because theres no need for them to do it other than greed. The power still lies with the people. Watch how fast they react when no one starts playing or visiting their store.

Also keep your posts about this in one single thread. Im not gonna go back and forth and read your lectures.



Feel free not to read or respond to them at all, I don't have a gun to your head. It's up to you what you choose to read or respond to.

Here is what I am saying: THEY. WILL. NOT. STOP. GOING.

Did the low-limit players stop playing Blackjack when The Strip rolled out 6:5 on the low-limit tables? Did the Roulette players stop playing when they slapped another zero on that bad boy? Did the low-limit Roulette players at Venetian/Palazzo stop playing when they slapped a THIRD zero on that bad boy? Do people all stop making side bets when the pays are changed for the worse? Did people stop betting the Field at those casinos that started doing Double-Double rather than Double-Triple?

Listen, when you can get out there and single-handed convince everyone to stop going, I will concede the argument. Until then, I have literal centuries of evidence to suggest that prices go up and people continue to buy the stuff.
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boymimbo
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July 16th, 2017 at 10:43:48 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Do you truly not comprehend the fact that if more wages were paid on direct prices would go up? Do you not understand that the money is going to come from the customer one way or another? What did you major in when you were in college? I'm guessing it wasn't Economics.

Therefore, if you don't want to tip, that's fine, but nobody thinks you are either smart or special because of it. Rather than encouraging people NOT TO TIP you should be thanking people FOR TIPPING because us tipping keeps the prices down.

You want Blackjack rules to get worse, Mr. Counter, here's a good way to do it: Make the casino compensate the dealers more on direct. The Blackjack rules will go to Hell immediately and the game will no longer be countable. Keep encouraging people not to tip, though, if you have that little concern for your own livelihood.

The tone in many of your posts is petulant, puerile, acrimonious and your suggestions are often absurd. I say nothing about you as a person, because that would be an insult. I speak only to your posts.



I disagree with the fact that upping minimum wages make games go stinky and agree with ZK (he was right). Collusion and competition are much more likely to affect game conditions. Collusion on the strip to introduce 6-5 BJ, reducing odds on Craps, making the field double/double, 00 roulette, 1-3-6 3-card pay tables all have been rule reductions over the last years which is more about profiteering than wages.

Take a look at Casino Windsor vs the Detroit Casinos or Fallsview vs the Senecas. The rules are no different in either place for games but the wages in Ontario are much higher as employees are unionized. Labor conditions would not worsen gaming conditions. The fact that there is tacit collusion between the Vegas casinos on the strip is the primary factor in the crappy gaming conditions on the strip. What you would actually see is minimums going up, not rules worsening, as that is the primary difference between the casinos on both sides.

Casinos on the US side can offer $10 PG, $5 BJ, and $5 Craps. You don't see that on the Canadian side as wages are higher.

I really don't have a problem with his point of view. Alot of people feel that the casinos should be 100% responsible for the dealer's compensation. If enough people decide this is the case, then you will have a situation where dealers will not apply for work and casinos won't have a choice but to pay more, and in turn, up table limits further.
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Ibeatyouraces
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July 16th, 2017 at 10:47:04 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I disagree with the fact that upping minimum wages make games go stinky and agree with ZK (he was right). Collusion and competition are much more likely to affect game conditions. Collusion on the strip to introduce 6-5 BJ, reducing odds on Craps, making the field double/double, 00 roulette, 1-3-6 3-card pay tables all have been rule reductions over the last years which is more about profiteering than wages.

Take a look at Casino Windsor vs the Detroit Casinos or Fallsview vs the Senecas. The rules are no different in either place for games but the wages in Ontario are much higher as employees are unionized. Labor conditions would not worsen gaming conditions. The fact that there is tacit collusion between the Vegas casinos on the strip is the primary factor in the crappy gaming conditions on the strip. What you would actually see is minimums going up, not rules worsening, as that is the primary difference between the casinos on both sides.

Casinos on the US side can offer $10 PG, $5 BJ, and $5 Craps. You don't see that on the Canadian side as wages are higher.

I really don't have a problem with his point of view. Alot of people feel that the casinos should be 100% responsible for the dealer's compensation. If enough people decide this is the case, then you will have a situation where dealers will not apply for work and casinos won't have a choice but to pay more, and in turn, up table limits further.


They're unionized in Detroit too. Most are represented by the UAW of all things.
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Mission146
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Mission146
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July 16th, 2017 at 10:54:48 PM permalink
BoyMimbo,

Fine, maybe it's table limits. That still constitutes prices for some people, in my view. Up table limits from $5 to $10, now the EV PRICE to play the game just doubled for whatever minimum bettors are not PRICED out altogether.

The entire point is you're not going to see wage costs on direct go up and businesses do nothing in response.

Also, that doesn't apply to restaurants, ZK seems to be against tipping as a rule, regardless of industry.

Blackjack minimums double, okay, as a counter you have to be willing to double your current max bet to have the same overall spread range in units. That's a negative. One's max bet is usually bankroll based, anyway, so you don't want to have to double that unless your bankroll can tolerate it.
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boymimbo
boymimbo
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July 16th, 2017 at 11:10:39 PM permalink
Just reading a UAW contract now. Dealers are paid between $10.59 and $11.61/hour. The Cashier at the cage is making $19.39/hour. Beverage Server making $14.28/hour.
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ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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July 17th, 2017 at 2:46:37 AM permalink
Hate to admit it after all i said about not tipping, but i just left a restaurant and i just couldnt be a stiff. I felt bad for the waiter, since i know thats what he relies on and ended up leaving about 18%. My point still remains though. These owners of these restaurants and casinos need to pay their workers, it should not be our responsibility and there would be no need to raise prices just cause youre paying ur workers 10 an hour. Its not like were even getting a great deal to begin with with the current tip system in place. Every restuarant overprices their steak etc.

All in all, me being a good person, i had to leave something. I guess i couldnt walk the walk, or whatever that phrase is, but something still needs to be done with this tipping system in this country. Ill still never tip a casino dealer though and it's nothing personal to them, but tipping at casino games is just ridiculous.
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Mission146
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Mission146
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July 17th, 2017 at 6:39:08 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Hate to admit it after all i said about not tipping, but i just left a restaurant and i just couldnt be a stiff. I felt bad for the waiter, since i know thats what he relies on and ended up leaving about 18%. My point still remains though. These owners of these restaurants and casinos need to pay their workers, it should not be our responsibility and there would be no need to raise prices just cause youre paying ur workers 10 an hour. Its not like were even getting a great deal to begin with with the current tip system in place. Every restuarant overprices their steak etc.

All in all, me being a good person, i had to leave something. I guess i couldnt walk the walk, or whatever that phrase is, but something still needs to be done with this tipping system in this country. Ill still never tip a casino dealer though and it's nothing personal to them, but tipping at casino games is just ridiculous.



That's good to hear, again, I don't care if you tip or not. I'm glad to hear you did, though.

Given that you're a card counter, I can understand why you wouldn't want to tip the dealers, that cuts into your EV. Could be good cover, I don't know, you hear arguments for and against.

In my lengthy post, keeping the same server hours and going from just $4.95/hour to $8.25 an hour increased server expenses by $40,000 annually based on ONLY 34 TOTAL server hours per week. If you bump it up to $10/hour, then server wage expenses go up to almost $60,000/year based on 34 hours per week.

For most restaurants, that's going to be a fair percentage of their profits. I don't see how quality/service doesn't seriously go down or prices don't seriously go up to compensate.

I'm also not a complete stalwart when it comes to tipping. The only time I would really get on someone (in person) is if they are stiffing someone who doesn't make at least minimum wage before tips. Starbucks people, I really don't understand why Starbucks baristas should be tipped, I tip a buck anyway but always feel like a moke. An independent cafe, maybe, because there you're as likely as not tipping the owner personally. Starbucks locations in Barnes and Nobles and many other stores don't even take tips.

I used to bartend and I don't understand why some bartenders expect a buck per drink from anyone other than people just drinking one or two, especially if it is just opening a beer. Anything short of a complicated mixed drink, and I really don't think anymore than a buck every two or three drinks is warranted. Some bartenders make minimum wage straight up, anyway, or more. I made $6.00 and kept all my tips when MW was $5.15. Cocktail waitresses are a little different, I look at that as paying for promptness.

I think it is completely optional whether or not to tip a housekeeper. I do tip them. They generally make at least minimum wage, usually a little more, or some hotels pay them by the room with $x for a checkout and $x for a stayover. We did it that way for about the first month at the first hotel I managed, but I changed it because the housekeepers were claiming stayover rooms that were actually DND's. Because of that, they were also making, like, $13 an hour!

Restaurant servers are the only ones for whom I take a serious stand, and I'm in favor of tipping bartenders because some of them get base wages similar to restaurant people. Other than that, I don't know that there are any other occupations that would be absolutely screwed without tips, cab drivers, arguably.
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DRich
DRich
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July 17th, 2017 at 6:53:14 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146



Restaurant servers are the only ones for whom I take a serious stand, and I'm in favor of tipping bartenders because some of them get base wages similar to restaurant people. Other than that, I don't know that there are any other occupations that would be absolutely screwed without tips, cab drivers, arguably.



Mission, do you think the amount of money the person is making, including tips, should factor into the amount of the tip? The only reason I ask is because some servers at high end restaurants take home over six figures. A friend of mine, and his husband, both work at the same nice seafood and steakhouse on the strip. According to them they each make over $100k with their tips.
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 17th, 2017 at 7:15:13 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Mission, do you think the amount of money the person is making, including tips, should factor into the amount of the tip? The only reason I ask is because some servers at high end restaurants take home over six figures. A friend of mine, and his husband, both work at the same nice seafood and steakhouse on the strip. According to them they each make over $100k with their tips.



That's a tough question for me because, not to brag on myself, but I'm a really good tipper. I usually stick to your lower middle tier restaurants just because I know how much my tipping habits cost me. Houlihan's, Logan's Roadhouse, Applebee's, Max & Erma's, Garfield's, Longhorn...those kind of places. Especially Houlihan's. That place is terrific.

Anyway, you're not going to see me in a, "High-end," restaurant:

A.) Because I think that the prices are a waste of money.

AND:

B.) I can't imagine tipping a server over $30 could ever be justified.

I also don't order any alcoholic beverages from a restaurant because I don't want to tip on those at the full percentage, but I know I will. Thus, I just drink coffee or iced tea.

I've only eaten at one place where the total check (for two) exceeded $100 and that's because it was like $100 at The Melting Pot when my fiance and I went there. Cool place, though. I tipped $30 on that, and the service was excellent...so I felt kind of bad, because I usually tip 30% for average service. I've tipped as high as 50% for excellent service. Sometimes more. If I'm eating breakfast alone in a diner and it's some nice old lady serving me I usually just double the check.

Of course, that total of $100 was tax and everything, so I tipped on tax and beverages, too. The server probably thought it was at least an okay tip, especially since I demand almost nothing.

So, my answer is I'm not going to eat at a place unless I am prepared to tip at least 30% of the total bill, so generally, I wouldn't eat at that place. I could say, "Who needs to tip them well," if they make six figures, but if everyone stopped tipping them well, then they wouldn't make six figures. I guess I kind of wonder what their base hourly amount is.

The Other Tipping Positive

The other thing that I could've mentioned with ZK and didn't is that I also like the concept of tipping because it is essentially you directly paying someone for the service that you are given. That's why I can't argue with non-tippers, if they don't think the service has any monetary value, fine, what can I say against that?

I just look at it (in the case of restaurants) as they get paid by the employer (restaurant) but I am also the co-employer. As the co-employer, I decide how much they get paid.

Last time I went to Logan's Roadhouse the food was really good, but our waitress sucked. The first thing she did was the drinks went empty two or three times, (which is, like, the ONLY thing I really care about) she forgot to clear the appetizer used empty dishes when the entrees came out (this is after I had already stacked the dishes neatly and placed them on the side of the table myself!), my first cup of coffee was cold, my fiance didn't get her side salad at all AND we were one of only two tables that waitress had and she only managed to check on us four times in an hour. (Sit-down, Take Order, Appetizer Delivery, Food Delivery) Thus, unless she was performing an essential service, she never came by. I don't count bringing the check.

Anyway, the bill was $42 and I only tipped $5, and she was lucky to get that. 11.9%. I considered tipping her $2 or nothing. Normally a $42 check would just be $60 and keep it, which is a little over 40%, I know, but how am I supposed to hand someone $60 and ask for $2-$3 change? That looks absurd.

So, she could have gotten $18 and she got $5 and I left feeling damned generous because she sucked. People know the phrase, "You get what you pay for," tipping is a cool thing because, "You pay for what you get." I should have actually only tipped $2, (4.76%) I wouldn't have tipped nothing because she was at least superficially friendly in an obviously forced way.
Vultures can't be choosers.

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