Poll

5 votes (15.15%)
2 votes (6.06%)
18 votes (54.54%)
No votes (0%)
1 vote (3.03%)
4 votes (12.12%)
6 votes (18.18%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (6.06%)
1 vote (3.03%)

33 members have voted

ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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July 16th, 2017 at 5:11:58 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Do you truly not comprehend the fact that if more wages were paid on direct prices would go up? Do you not understand that the money is going to come from the customer one way or another? What did you major in when you were in college? I'm guessing it wasn't Economics.

Therefore, if you don't want to tip, that's fine, but nobody thinks you are either smart or special because of it. Rather than encouraging people NOT TO TIP you should be thanking people FOR TIPPING because us tipping keeps the prices down.

You want Blackjack rules to get worse, Mr. Counter, here's a good way to do it: Make the casino compensate the dealers more on direct. The Blackjack rules will go to Hell immediately and the game will no longer be countable. Keep encouraging people not to tip, though, if you have that little concern for your own livelihood.

The tone in many of your posts is petulant, puerile, acrimonious and your suggestions are often absurd. I say nothing about you as a person, because that would be an insult. I speak only to your posts.



Once again you missed the point and i already covered this in my previous posts if you actually read them. There is absolutely no reason for an emplpyer to then raise his prices or making blackjack worse just because he has to now pay someone 10 an hour. Give me a break man, if you think their profit margin is that slim, youre kidding yourself. But like i said they WILL use the whole 10 n hour thing as an excuse to raise prices, but all we woukd have to do them is take a stand against that amd stop eating out and playing. They will look at their greedy selves and go back to normal and suck up the 10 an hour they npw have to pay.

Give me a break and wake up
Wong Halves Full Indices ------------ LoneWoLF
monet0412
monet0412
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July 16th, 2017 at 5:15:55 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Tipping must have been different in the fourties and fifties, because my dad always said the tip is supposed to be based on the total before drinks and tax. It's funny the servers believed if someone can't afford to tip the person can't afford the meal/drink.

I have no first hand experience with the expensive routines of tables/bottle service, but remember a reality show somewhere where 20 somethings were making hundreds and thousands a night serving, and thought they deserved it. It's not like they could make that income anywhere else or there if they were 40 or 50, unable to sell a slight chance at nill odds of banging them. Think the job was a Vegas pool scene with cabanas, etc. What was even funnier was there were people taking their share of the con for granted by not showing up and calling off.



I worked enough in the industry to understand. First of all as I have said before it really doesn't matter if you give bad or good service your gonna average so much per year on your total sales. I suppose you might be able to change the numbers to swing 5% or so if you always give great service or bad service. If your gonna give horrible service all the time you might get enough complaints to get in some trouble or fired so that might not work out so well. Most people understand that tipping is supposed to be before tax and that drinks usually don't count as much as food. All of this doesn't matter I find that if your going to tip 15% of the total it will work out to the same as 20% of the subtotal. The math might not work perfect but it is close. As I have stated before getting stiffed isn't so bad because you have someone else tipping 30%. Most workers will cry about it but I never cared if you stiffed me or over tipped me because I was most likely quitting tomorrow anyway. I have quit many jobs during service.

Quote: ZenKinG

If you support tippimg youre part of the problem amd society has you by the balls. People are so brainwashed that if youre a waitress etc and you stiff them, they get mad at you, but never look or question their boss one bit, when in fact its their boss who is responsible. Too funmy how the human brain is so easily manipulated by media amd society



Nobody can make anyone feel guilty. Guilt comes from within and it is most likely your already feeling guilty before anyone has influenced you. This guilt you talk of is already buried inside of oneself most likely and it has nothing to do with tipping or not tipping it is something deeper than this trivial subject of tipping.

You must have never worked a job that has tipping involved. If you have worked as a server or bartender or dealer you wouldn't have this line of thinking. If you keep on this line of thought and way of life you will never be able to take a job that involves tipping. If you do you will have to refuse all tips that are given to you or you will have a conflict of interest. If they pool the tips and put it on your check you will have to refuse this as well or give it back to your employer. I am not sure what your so upset about. You don't want to work a regular job. You don't want to use your education. You don't want to live close to your family. You don't want to enjoy being in Vegas and a Professional AP. You don't enjoy where you live and the insects that bite you. You don't want to ever tip any person ever again. I'm not sure why you live in the USA... this country has a culture of tipping and it isn't going to change in your lifetime but you could move to other countries that refuse tipping, they do have those you know? I'm not sure what is wrong but it is pretty clear your pissed off at the world but so was I for a long time... probably still am in some ways. It is tough for me to imagine how you would ever get paid large jackpots or sit there playing any game never tipping and how you explain how it's societies fault that you don't tip to the people your not tipping when society hasn't changed yet to warrant such behavior. It must be tough for you to go to an expensive dinner and watch someone pay for your dinner and cover a 20% tip... that must sting or needle you!? Vegas is pretty good at sucking the Joy or Life out of people but you may have already moved here defeated in some way... the good news is that it will get worse for you most likely so cheer up pal! I'm not your pal....buddy! I'm not your buddy... friend! I'm not your friend... guy! I'm not your guy... buddy! I'm not your buddy... pal! Well... I'm not your friend... buddy!
Last edited by: monet0412 on Jul 16, 2017
GWAE
GWAE
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July 16th, 2017 at 5:25:06 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Once again you missed the point and i already covered this in my previous posts if you actually read them. There is absolutely no reason for an emplpyer to then raise his prices or making blackjack worse just because he has to now pay someone 10 an hour. Give me a break man, if you think their profit margin is that slim, youre kidding yourself. But like i said they WILL use the whole 10 n hour thing as an excuse to raise prices, but all we woukd have to do them is take a stand against that amd stop eating out and playing. They will look at their greedy selves and go back to normal and suck up the 10 an hour they npw have to pay.

Give me a break and wake up



No one ever said they have that low of profit margin but they sure are not going to make less money than before, especially if they are a public company where earnings per location are that important.
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 16th, 2017 at 5:30:12 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Once again you missed the point and i already covered this in my previous posts if you actually read them. There is absolutely no reason for an emplpyer to then raise his prices or making blackjack worse just because he has to now pay someone 10 an hour. Give me a break man, if you think their profit margin is that slim, youre kidding yourself. But like i said they WILL use the whole 10 n hour thing as an excuse to raise prices, but all we woukd have to do them is take a stand against that amd stop eating out and playing. They will look at their greedy selves and go back to normal and suck up the 10 an hour they npw have to pay.

Give me a break and wake up



I'm plenty awake, I have a fundamental grasp on both Microeconomics and reality.

Okay, first you say I have no idea what I am talking about, and then you say they WILL use increasing the wages as an excuse to raise prices and change the Blackjack rules...but your counter assertion is that everyone will stop eating out and playing and the prices would go back down to where they were before.

The first thing that I am going to do is pretend, for your benefit, that your proposition is not completely ridiculous.

Okay, so let's say that prices DO go up and playing conditions DO get worse, but only temporarily. How does that not cost you EV? If the average Blackjack conditions out there are worse, for just one day, that costs you EV. If it stays the same at some places and not others, then you have a smaller number of casinos at which you could get a good game, you increase your exposure at those and risk getting tossed. If you get formally 86'ed, then you can't go back, and THAT costs you EV.

You want conditions to either get better or stay the same, you don't want them to get worse, not even for a day.

The second thing I am going to do is explain WHY your proposition is completely ridiculous.

Your proposition is absurd because Blackjack rules have changed for the worse already WITH LITTLE OR NO REASON OR EXCUSE FOR THEM TO DO SO and they have not returned to where they were at as little as a few years ago. 6:5 Blackjack is all over the place, and people are playing it, and those tables are making money. Do you see that many Strip casinos who have rolled out 6:5 Blackjack at the lower limits who have then changed their minds? Me either.

Furthermore, if your average tab when you dine out is $40 and it goes up to, say, $48-$52 is that going to completely prevent you from going to that restaurant. Maybe. However, what will happen is that you will go to a different restaurant who is now around that $40 price point that used to be at a $30 price point before wages went up. Furthermore, MOST PEOPLE who previously tipped would not be tipping the waitress anymore, so that $47.20 (cost on $40) after tip assuming 18% is now just $48-$52, so their costs have gone up, but not by much.

See that, depending on the price increase the cost the TIPPING customer pays only goes up a little, anyway. $47.20 with a tip on a $40 check, or $48-$52 check with no tip assuming a price increase of 20-30%.

This really isn't difficult stuff. We might have covered this in Middle School Business Management, now that I think about it. Certainly before we got out of high school.

Therefore, the TIPPERS have very little reason to discontinue eating at that establishment, because their costs have gone up very little and perhaps not at all. In my case, I tend to tip 30-40%, so anything less than a 30% increase in direct costs (assuming no tipping) is actually doing me a favor.

Cost increases hurt you, however, because you do not tip. If it was once $40, now it is $48-$52 so that's what you pay if you want to eat there. Your $40 will otherwise get you what used to be $32-$35, elsewhere.

See, the tippers supplement the wages which keeps the costs down. That was my original point. Egro, the tippers are doing you a favor.

Here's an Introduction to Business Management homework question for you:

The cost of a Ford Model T was about $300 in 1925, if Ford had continued to make the Model T to present day and had never raised the price of the Model T regardless of what happened to their manufacturing/distribution/overhead and wage costs, would Ford still be in business today? (Yes or No)

Please have your answer on my desk prior to our next session. Class dismissed.
Vultures can't be choosers.
monet0412
monet0412
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July 16th, 2017 at 5:47:48 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

I Too funmy how the human brain is so easily manipulated by media amd society



They have you by the horizontal and vertical as well ZK. Manipulation isn't very difficult... your being manipulated many times over on this very forum and so am I. Manipulation is just part of life... get used to it.
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
Joined: May 19, 2016
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July 16th, 2017 at 6:19:25 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I don't worry too much about stayover service because I never want stayover service, I just grab any accouterments (clean towels, coffee packs, cups) on an as-needed basis from the housekeeper carts during the times they are working.



I understand that you might prefer no one be in your hotel room, ever, for any reason. And, you explain very well steps you take to minimize the workload of cleaning staff. Hmmmm... I might start doing that myself on days I check out. Especially since my friend has largely convinced me not to tip cleaning staff (for many reasons previously mentioned).

But, hold on a minute! You work in the business, right? One of my first jobs was as an assistant to the maintenance man for a (fairly) large motel (and long before anyone ever tipped housekeeping staff). My understanding -- recognizing things could have changed over the last 50 years -- is that one should NEVER help oneself to materials on the housekeeper carts (when the housekeeper is not there to note what you took) because they are often responsible for the inventory they take out each morning and bring in each evening.

It's one thing to see the housekeeper and say you need more coffee and another towel for room XXX. However, (from my experience) it's quite another thing altogether to filch it without the housekeeper being aware. At least, that is what I was always given to understand. Maybe it's different where you work. Maybe it's different throughout the industry today.

You work in the business, so 'splain yerself, young man. Am I some misguided old fuddy-duddy? (Of course I am, but maybe or maybe not with specific reference to this issue, OK?) Or, do hotels do things different today than before? If the housekeeper isn't personally responsible for the cleaning cart inventory, I sure want to know. Please take a moment for some just-in-time education of a thoroughly confused long-time traveler. Many thanx.
Mission146
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Mission146
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Thanks for this post from:
LuckyPhow
July 16th, 2017 at 6:37:43 PM permalink
Quote: LuckyPhow



I understand that you might prefer no one be in your hotel room, ever, for any reason. And, you explain very well steps you take to minimize the workload of cleaning staff. Hmmmm... I might start doing that myself on days I check out. Especially since my friend has largely convinced me not to tip cleaning staff (for many reasons previously mentioned).



I still tip them, I prefer to actually tip the person who made my room the way it was as opposed to the person cleaning up after me, though. Like I said, if it's just average in cleanliness or I am just staying one night, I'll leave my tip the following day.

Quote:

But, hold on a minute! You work in the business, right? One of my first jobs was as an assistant to the maintenance man for a (fairly) large motel (and long before anyone ever tipped housekeeping staff). My understanding -- recognizing things could have changed over the last 50 years -- is that one should NEVER help oneself to materials on the housekeeper carts (when the housekeeper is not there to note what you took) because they are often responsible for the inventory they take out each morning and bring in each evening.



I used to work in the hotel industry.

I've never worked in a hotel in which we logged the inventory from the housekeeping cart used, only time we would do that is if there was so much missing that it was clear materials were being stolen. Besides that, I didn't include it, but figured it went without saying that I tell the housekeeper what I am taking. If I take towels, I usually also give her the dirty ones or ask where to put them. Sometimes I even give her a dollar, even though she isn't really doing anything.

Quote:

It's one thing to see the housekeeper and say you need more coffee and another towel for room XXX. However, (from my experience) it's quite another thing altogether to filch it without the housekeeper being aware. At least, that is what I was always given to understand. Maybe it's different where you work. Maybe it's different throughout the industry today.



If she's in a room cleaning, I just tell her what I am taking. You know that they generally leave the doors propped open when they are cleaning, in most places. I figure just taking it saves her from having to pause at whatever she is doing to get me stuff. I'm probably also one of the only people that does this, anyway. I can't imagine a hotel counting coffee packets when the housekeeper gets back, or stuff like that!

Quote:

You work in the business, so 'splain yerself, young man. Am I some misguided old fuddy-duddy? (Of course I am, but maybe or maybe not with specific reference to this issue, OK?) Or, do hotels do things different today than before? If the housekeeper isn't personally responsible for the cleaning cart inventory, I sure want to know. Please take a moment for some just-in-time education of a thoroughly confused long-time traveler. Many thanx.



I don't know about the industry, I've worked in three hotels (managed two of those) and I never held the housekeepers accountable or really paid attention unless it became clear we were dropping inventory in a serious hurry. Actual cases of stuff were kept in a locked room(s) and a housekeeper could have one case of anything at any given time on the cart. If a housekeeper goes through 1,000 coffee condiment packs in three days, then I know there is some stealing going on, and I'll narrow that down.

We kept an inventory of towels, too, of course. I would know how many towels are out at any given time, and since everything is three PAR stock, it's not really that hard to keep track. (In other words, enough of each kind of towel to stock every room three times) Housekeepers had to report any towels that needed to be thrown away, or the laundry guy, or whoever did laundry, and we kept track of those. They're actually expensive.

About once a month I would count the number of towels that were out after making sure every room was fully stocked (so I should have everything to stock every room fully x2) and see what was missing compared to the, "Not Salvageable," list. Not Salvageable linens just became cleaning rags and what have you. Usually ripped or stained. As long as what I had in inventory was pretty close to what I should have in inventory (you figure a few things will get put in Not Salvageable without a record being made AND you figure guests will steal some stuff...also, you'd be SHOCKED at how many people flush washcloths!!!) then everything was fine.

And, honestly, if a housekeeper needed two sets of towels for home because she couldn't afford towels I would just tell her to take them (if she asked) and would reimburse the hotel personally and at cost.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Mission146
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Mission146
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July 16th, 2017 at 7:18:37 PM permalink
MORE RESTAURANT STUFF

I'm going to get into this in more detail because I cannot comprehend how someone could have the audacity, the unmitigated gall, to suggest that if employee costs were to go up dramatically that the prices would not go up in the meantime.

Let's play a little game called, 'Applebee's in Bloomington, Illinois.' I have never been to the Applebee's in Bloomington, Illinois, but I'm sure it is just lovely. They are open 11a-12a every day, but they keep it open until 1a on Fridays and Saturdays.

I called this Applebee's to determine how many servers are working right now at this 8:53p.m. CST and have been informed that there are two presently working. Since Sunday is not a terribly busy night for most restaurants, I'll assume that there are always about two servers working at this time.

I bet you the schedule for every day looks something kind of close to this:

Server A: 11a-7p
Server B: Noon-8p
Server C: 2-10p
Server D: 4p-Midnight

Now, you're probably going to have more servers on the weekends, but I am going to pretend you won't, other than adding in the two weekend hours.

With my schedule above, you notice that all servers are there for the busiest dinner hours, and at least two servers are there all the way up until 10p, and then we drop down to one. We also open the restaurant with just one server. This is bare minimum staffing.

That's a total of 32 labor hours per day, and 34 on weekends, because of the extended hours. That's 228 labor hours per week. I imagine that it's much more than that, but for simplicity, I am assuming weekends are essentially the same schedule.

Okay, so you have 228 * 52 or 11,856 labor hours per year.

Illinois law is actually higher than most states in that employers must pay tipped employees at least $4.95/hour, many states are lower than that.

Imagine if the employees make $10/hour after tips, and obviously, have no desire to work for less than that. They probably make more, but we'll ignore that, we'll pretend it comes out to an average of $10/hour. Minimum wage is $8.25/hour.

If the employer decides to pay my theoretical bare minimum staff $10/hour, then labor costs will go up:

11,856 * 5.05 = $59,872.80 in direct labor costs per year. Of course, that doesn't include FICA matching costs (which also go up) or anything along those lines.

If the employer must pay minimum wage on direct, then it goes up:

11,856 * 3.30 = $39,124.80 in direct labor costs per year, again, not counting the additional taxes.

What would make any reasonable person conclude that an individual restaurant is going to just absorb a reduced bottom line of 40k-60k per year without increasing the prices? How could anyone possibly reach that conclusion?

Applebee's had 4.42B in sales last year across all restaurants according to:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/222402/applebees-us-franchise-sales/

They have 2,016 total restaurants, so:

4,420,000,000/2016 = $2,192,460

The average restaurant does $2,192,460 in annual sales, by mean average. That is not profits, that is sales.

So the suggestion that they would incur additional costs that constitute:

40000/2192460 = 0.01824434653 1.82443% of total sales.

OR

60000/2192460 = 0..02736651979 or 2.7367% of total sales

Without raising prices is so absurd as to not even merit consideration.

Look at the costs: Wages, Salaried Employees, Utilities, Property Lease, Food, Beverages, Tables, Chairs, Equipment, Cooks, Custodial, Franchise Fees etc. etc.

Does anybody know how thin the margin is for a restaurant? A profitable one? Because I happen to have a general idea.

...They don't make a lot.

It's a very small margin industry.

So, to suggest that a restaurant is going to take a 40k-60k hit in costs without increasing prices is so absurd as to not even merit consideration, and yet here I am talking about it.

I mean, they take a minimum of 7.75% in Gross Sales from the franchise:

http://www.franchisedirect.com/foodfranchises/applebees-franchise-07406/ufoc/

Then, they get 8.65% of all redeemed Gift Cards. Bunch of other costs, too.

And, again, I made some EXTREMELY conservative assumptions about the total hours per week. They probably have two or three extra servers on the weekends.
Vultures can't be choosers.
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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July 16th, 2017 at 7:39:30 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Do you truly not comprehend the fact that if more wages were paid on direct prices would go up? .



I have to disagree. Quality or service may go down, but prices don't necessarily go up. Walmart and McDonalds being two examples.

I'm sure there are also counter examples but just pointing out it does not necessarily follow.

I mean I'd actually be surprised if either of those companies became even more of a bargain to the customer if they converted to tipping.

Maybe you wouldn't wait in a line as long and food and service would be better. Maybe more smiles.

Cheaper because of tipping? I doubt it.

edited for last line
prisoner of gravity
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
Joined: May 3, 2016
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July 16th, 2017 at 7:54:23 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I'm plenty awake, I have a fundamental grasp on both Microeconomics and reality.

Okay, first you say I have no idea what I am talking about, and then you say they WILL use increasing the wages as an excuse to raise prices and change the Blackjack rules...but your counter assertion is that everyone will stop eating out and playing and the prices would go back down to where they were before.

The first thing that I am going to do is pretend, for your benefit, that your proposition is not completely ridiculous.

Okay, so let's say that prices DO go up and playing conditions DO get worse, but only temporarily. How does that not cost you EV? If the average Blackjack conditions out there are worse, for just one day, that costs you EV. If it stays the same at some places and not others, then you have a smaller number of casinos at which you could get a good game, you increase your exposure at those and risk getting tossed. If you get formally 86'ed, then you can't go back, and THAT costs you EV.

You want conditions to either get better or stay the same, you don't want them to get worse, not even for a day.

The second thing I am going to do is explain WHY your proposition is completely ridiculous.

Your proposition is absurd because Blackjack rules have changed for the worse already WITH LITTLE OR NO REASON OR EXCUSE FOR THEM TO DO SO and they have not returned to where they were at as little as a few years ago. 6:5 Blackjack is all over the place, and people are playing it, and those tables are making money. Do you see that many Strip casinos who have rolled out 6:5 Blackjack at the lower limits who have then changed their minds? Me either.

Furthermore, if your average tab when you dine out is $40 and it goes up to, say, $48-$52 is that going to completely prevent you from going to that restaurant. Maybe. However, what will happen is that you will go to a different restaurant who is now around that $40 price point that used to be at a $30 price point before wages went up. Furthermore, MOST PEOPLE who previously tipped would not be tipping the waitress anymore, so that $47.20 (cost on $40) after tip assuming 18% is now just $48-$52, so their costs have gone up, but not by much.

See that, depending on the price increase the cost the TIPPING customer pays only goes up a little, anyway. $47.20 with a tip on a $40 check, or $48-$52 check with no tip assuming a price increase of 20-30%.

This really isn't difficult stuff. We might have covered this in Middle School Business Management, now that I think about it. Certainly before we got out of high school.

Therefore, the TIPPERS have very little reason to discontinue eating at that establishment, because their costs have gone up very little and perhaps not at all. In my case, I tend to tip 30-40%, so anything less than a 30% increase in direct costs (assuming no tipping) is actually doing me a favor.

Cost increases hurt you, however, because you do not tip. If it was once $40, now it is $48-$52 so that's what you pay if you want to eat there. Your $40 will otherwise get you what used to be $32-$35, elsewhere.

See, the tippers supplement the wages which keeps the costs down. That was my original point. Egro, the tippers are doing you a favor.

Here's an Introduction to Business Management homework question for you:

The cost of a Ford Model T was about $300 in 1925, if Ford had continued to make the Model T to present day and had never raised the price of the Model T regardless of what happened to their manufacturing/distribution/overhead and wage costs, would Ford still be in business today? (Yes or No)

Please have your answer on my desk prior to our next session. Class dismissed.



If they try and raise prices or make blackjack unplayable, then everyone needs to stop going to these places until they revert back to what is normal because theres no need for them to do it other than greed. The power still lies with the people. Watch how fast they react when no one starts playing or visiting their store.

Also keep your posts about this in one single thread. Im not gonna go back and forth and read your lectures.
Wong Halves Full Indices ------------ LoneWoLF

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