Is gambling immoral? (split from "Craps dealers giving George" thread)

Quote: P90

Within the terms of Judeo-Xtian morality, gambling is immoral in itself.

That position is far from undisputed. A major Jewish holiday like Hanukah incorporates gambling with the spinning of the dreidel. Here is a small essay on the topic:
"Gambling
Gambling, for the most part, is permitted in Judaism.
By Rabbi Louis Jacobs
Reprinted from The Jewish Religion: A Companion, published by Oxford University Press.

That there are no references to gambling in the Bible can hardly lead to the conclusion that this activity, found in all cultures both ancient and modern, was unknown in the biblical period; although it can be concluded that gambling was not widespread enough to constitute a social evil, otherwise its condemnation would have been recorded somewhere in the biblical records.

The casting of lots is mentioned not infrequently in the Bible but this has more to do with divination rather than with gambling proper. Lots were cast to determine which of the two goats were to be offered to God and which to Azazel (Leviticus 16: 810); in the affair of Jonathan (I Samuel 14: 423); and to divide up the land (Numbers 26: 55 and Joshua 15). Among non-Israelites, the sailors cast lots in order to determine who was responsible for the storm (Jonah I: 7) and Haman cast lots to determine the most suitable month in which to realize his plan to destroy the Jews (Esther 3: 7).

The famous German halakhist Jair Hayyim Bacharach (1639-1702) did, however, apply the biblical references to casting lots to gambling, even going so far as to conclude that a raffle is a legitimate means of allowing divine providence to operate in favor of the winner (Responsa, Havvot Yair, no. 61). Bacharach quotes in support the verse: "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" (Proverbs 16: 33).

From the legal point of view, the Mishnah (Rosh Ha-Shanah I: 8 and Sanhedrin 3: 3) states that two types of gamblers are untrustworthy and therefore disqualified from acting as witnesses in a Jewish court of law. These are the dice-player and, according to one opinion, the man who bets on pigeon-racing. The reason why the gambler is disqualified is discussed in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 24b).

One rabbi holds that it is only the gambler who has no other occupation, that is, the professional gambler who earns his living by gambling, who is disqualified and the reason is because he makes no useful contribution to society. Another rabbi holds that the disqualification applies even to the occasional gambler, even if he does have a useful occupation. According to this rabbi the gambler is disqualified because in betting, the one who bets believes that he is going to win so that there is no firm determination, as there is in other contractual obligations, by the loser to payout. The winner is disqualified because, by pocketing his winnings, he is a thief, taking that to which he has no legal entitlement. my jewish learning

This thread has been split off from a different thread. The item quoted from P90 above was from this post:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/5329-craps-dealers-giving-george/#post133614

From the other thread, the post that suggested splitting the thread:

Quote: WongBo

maybe this discussion could be moved to the religion thread so as not to poison the gambling threads with total nonsense

For the record, I don't think it's nonsense. Sure, someone non-religious might not "buy" it, but it's certainly not nonsense.

Gambling is a perfectly moral activity, so long as you gamble within your means (ie you bet only what you can afford to lose, and don't get into debt in order to gamble), and are coignazant that the odds are fixed against you.

To be equitable, "total nonsense" would also apply to the patently inaccurate statement in the referenced post.

edit: My post was not really about Christianity or Judaism, but rather about morality being relative. In some moral systems (and that includes the most mainstream ones), gambling is already wrong - doesn't matter much if you're cheating at it or not. In others, neither is wrong.

Quote: SanchoPanza

From the legal point of view, the Mishnah (Rosh Ha-Shanah I: 8 and Sanhedrin 3: 3) states that two types of gamblers are untrustworthy and therefore disqualified from acting as witnesses in a Jewish court of law. These are the dice-player and, according to one opinion, the man who bets on pigeon-racing.

That's really about all the condemnation one needs to conclude that gambling is looked down upon (at least).

Although I know that Judaism often interprets its texts literally enough that this can be taken to mean that racing anything other than pigeons is fine, card games are fine, and dice and pigeon racing are also fine as long as you don't have outstanding court summons.

Quote: SanchoPanza

One rabbi holds that it is only the gambler who has no other occupation, that is, the professional gambler who earns his living by gambling, who is disqualified and the reason is because he makes no useful contribution to society.

As mentioned in the thread about them, traditionally professional gamblers were what we today call bookmakers and gambling operators. As there were no casinos (or possibly very few), you would rather go to a professional gambler, operating out of basically anywhere and acting as the bank in hazard, or as the bookmaker in racing.

So, today, this would apply to employees of casinos and bookmaking establishments, pro APs, and generally everyone in the gaming industry. If we treat gambling as entertainment, this should be extended to everyone in entertainment industries.

BTW:

During an interfaith convention in a state that forbids all forms of gambling (the 57th state, of course <w>), a priest, a minister and a rabbi (naturally) set up a friendly poker game in one of their rooms. Unfortunately the game, while friendly, gets a bit too loud and a complaint from another hotel guest leads to the police paying our trio a visit. When they see cards and chips on the table, they haul the three men of god to a magistrate.

The magistrate tells them: "Gentlemen, because you are guests in our city and due to your positions in your respective communities, I will give each of you a chance to convince me you were not gambling. Father?

"Thank you, your honor," the priest says. "I will admit there were gambling tokens on the table, chips if you preffer. But their prescence by itself does not mean they represented money or anything else. We can think of thema s convenient amrkers for keeping score. Furhtermore--"

The magistrate interrupts, "That's enough, Father. You were not gambling. Reverend?"

"your honor," the minister says, "clearly even if the chips represented money, and I do not admit they did, that does not mean by any means there was any intention to separate any actual money from its rightful owner, at least not permanently and--"

"Enough, Reverend," the magistrate points out. "I'm satisfied you were not gambling. Rabbi, how about you? were you gambling?"

The rabbi simply says "With whom, your honor?"

Thumbs up, Nareed. That was really good!

Quote: Mosca

Thumbs up, Nareed. That was really good!

Thanks.

I can't take the credit, though. I read that joke in Isaac Asimov's Treasury of Humor a long time ago. It just was too good a fit for this topic.

Quote: P90

Although I know that Judaism often interprets its texts literally enough that this can be taken to mean that racing anything other than pigeons is fine, card games are fine, and dice and pigeon racing are also fine as long as you don't have outstanding court summons.As mentioned in the thread about them, traditionally professional gamblers were what we today call bookmakers and gambling operators. As there were no casinos (or possibly very few), you would rather go to a professional gambler, operating out of basically anywhere and acting as the bank in hazard, or as the bookmaker in racing. So, today, this would apply to employees of casinos and bookmaking establishments, pro APs, and generally everyone in the gaming industry. If we treat gambling as entertainment, this should be extended to everyone in entertainment industries.

Because of concern for copyright infringement, this passage was trimmed, but now seems to be more pressingly relevant:
"The codifiers follow the first opinion and permit a "mild flutter" and even a not so mild one. Thus, according to the strict letter of the law, it is permitted to play cards for money, to bet on horses, and to organize and participate in a raffle. It is certainly the practice of many Jewish charitable organizations to raise money by raffles and the like but for bingo to take place on synagogue premises is frowned upon by many rabbis even if the proceeds will go to charity, on the grounds that such games of chance are unsuitable for premises attached to a house of worship.

The Galician Rabbi Meir Arik (1855-1926) allows a Jew to breed racehorses and docs not consider such an occupation to be akin to that of the professional gambler whom the Mishnah disqualifies as a disreputable person (Responsa, ii, no, 65). Whenever gambling got out of hand, the Jewish moralists condemned it as a frivolous pursuit (almost everything was a frivolous pursuit for some of the moralists) and, especially, because it could easily lead to impoverishment and destroy family life."

By the way, that same Web site has an adjacent discussion on:
"How Far Is Wall Street From Las Vegas?
Jewish ethics of stock-market investment and speculative activity
By Rabbi Asher Meir

Reprinted with permission from The Jewish Ethicist: Everyday Ethics for Business and Life (Ktav Publishing), a compilation of the author's weekly syndicated ethics columns.

Trading on the stock market is not so different from gambling in a casino. One trader bets long, another bets short; then the wheel of the Dow (or the Nasdaq) goes round and round, and depending on where it stops the chips get reshuffled. Despite this, many people who would never go to a casino have no problem playing the market. The following discussion clarifies the moral distinction between the two activities, based on Jewish sources that discuss the ethical objection to gambling.

QUESTION: Gambling involves many ethical problems. Isn't playing the stock market just another form of the same vice?

ANSWER: Most economists would probably insist that there is no connection between the dissipative activity of gambling and the vital constructive role of stock markets in the allocation of society's productive capital. These markets provide a needed way for individuals to invest their sav­ings in productive assets.

However, this view is not quite unanimous. In 1935, the great English economist John Maynard Keynes looked at Wall Street and wrote that the capital development of the United States had become "the by-product of the activities of a casino," and added, "It is usually agreed that casinos should, in the public interest, be inaccessible and expensive. And perhaps the same is true of stock exchanges."

Despite the indignant protests of some orthodox economists, it is pretty unlikely that the experience of the intervening 70 years would have done much to persuade Keynes to change his mind. Plenty of stock market investors pay scant attention to capital development and continue just taking a ride on the stock-market roller-coaster.

However, before we draw any ethical conclusions from Keynes's observation, we should recall that the main objective of the Torah is not the efficiency of capital markets but individual spiritual development. From this point of view, there is still a vast difference between the two kinds of speculation.

The Talmud points out two ethical problems with gambling. The Mishnah states that a habitual gambler is disqualified from giving testimony. The Talmud then asks, What is it that a gambler has done wrong? The passage proceeds as follows: "Rami bar Hama said, 'Because it is a conditional commitment, and a conditional commitment is not binding.' Rav Sheshet said, This is not considered a conditional com­mitment. Rather, he is not occupied with settling the world."

According to Rami bar Hama, the problem with gambling is that the winner often takes unfair advantage of the loser, who is not always fully aware of the adverse odds he faces. The professional gambler is generally a hustler who preys on the ignorance and weakness of the amateur.

According to Rav Sheshet, habitual gambling leads to an easy-come-easy-go attitude toward money and an anti-social, underworld mental­ity of contempt for productive work. The gambler is unmoved by the ethical and legal sanctions against lying in court, because his whole life is just game and a gamble. . . ."

Sancho;

"With God all things are possible" I don't remember the (biblical) book/ verse. The possibility of "immorality" is in one's soul/mind only. I have to agree, as a once long time biblical student, with another here... If it hurts no one --even you "truly" that is to say you can afford to wager than it is simply mute- that is something we 'just do" which is "OK". It is a matter-- it part -of self control.

It is not the best way to "give" a great some of $$ to an entity (casino)--- that said Lottery's do do well for the cities and towns that benefit from them and reduced forced taxation of the populace. There are better ways to spend one's earnings/wealth. But we all have the right in a free society to entertain ourselves as we wish with that which we have earned/or own. (without hurting others).

But if you are "asking the question of morality at all" --and you have-- than perhaps for you it could be immoral for you based on your belief system.

Self gratification does not make something "moral" though....

In order to be truly "free" one has to be educated. That education should have a biblical element to it. I say this "for you" because I see Biblical qoutes in your post.

Unfortunately it is a long path to truly understand our freedom--even freedom in christianity. Many never find it. but it is there to be found for sure.

BOL