I have been credited with a miracle :)
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Now, this woman cleans out office and does some additional services for us, like preparing fruit for snacks and running some errands when we're too busy. She's also very good at making out chaotic offices a place that passes for a normal workspace. In other words I have much regard for her and even some affection. Therefore I felt it impolite to refuse, even though, of course, I had no intention of begging a fictional character for something. Saying "of course I will," would make her feel better, perhaps, and whether I actually prayed or not would make no difference whatsoever.
Two days ago she came to thank me. the child turn up, again I have no details, and she credited me with helping find the child.
So there you have it. I can work miracles. Who would have thought it possible?
1. Other people almost certainly prayed, if devine intercession was involved. Their prayers may have been heard, and you just got undeserved credit, a common occurence in this world.
2. Police intercession may have been the real miracle.
3. And it may have been a combination: G-d worked through the police.
We ALL can work miracles if we apply ourselves. I feel that EZ Pai Gow is a miracle, especially because the gaming industry is as it is.
Work, sweat, and inspiration are prayer also. These are the prayers that works best, and the prayers that G-d wants and expects from us. He doesn't want to see us kneeling, as he's seen enough of our asses. He wants to see our worn-out shoes, pencils, keyboards, and calculators.
So Credit the detectives.
Quote: PaigowdanWell, don't pat yourself on the back so quickly:
Why not? Do you have any proof my hypocritical inaction did not cause the child to return safely? One person has testified to that effect, even if she doesn't know what I did or did not do.
Quote: PaigowdanThis is like asking me to prove that my cat is actually not an alien from mars.
Oh, sweetie, everyone knows cats are overlords from Mars :P
Quote:I can't prove it to you if you want to believe what you want.
That's the wrong answer. But it's on the right track.
Quote:Even if that one person testifies to that effect, it does not mean she really knows anything aside from her child is back.
It wasn't the cleaning woman's child who went missing. She was just worried about her coworker, as were we all.
Quote: s2dbakerI shall pray to Saint Nareed whenever my child goes missing.
I've already done nothing about it.
today. Its a Festivus miracle!
up on lima beans in the morning..
Quote: WizardI'd say this miracle increases the value of Nareed's soul significantly.
There'll be another Super Bowl before WoVCon ][. Care to go double or nothing?
Quote: WizardI'd say this miracle increases the value of Nareed's soul significantly.
Does FriarGamble know you own Nareed's soul and
are waiting fo it to go up in value before dumping
it? And on Xmas, no less. You'd think the 'right'
thing to do would be release his soul on the holy day.
Quote: NareedWhy not? Do you have any proof my hypocritical inaction did not cause the child to return safely? One person has testified to that effect, even if she doesn't know what I did or did not do.
I think your kind pretending not to be an atheist did indeed help the person and their family not to lose hope. They knew that they had the support of a good person like you at their work. I think its premature to canonize you but I think recognizing that it is good to feel we are not alone in our difficulties, through our friends or through our relationship with God, is a good step in the right direction.
Quote: FrGambleI think your kind pretending not to be an atheist did indeed help the person and their family not to lose hope. They knew that they had the support of a good person like you at their work.
Ok. It seems I was writing in Chinese-infused Antarctican in my first post. So I'll repeat here:
A coworker, NOT the cleaning lady, had her child go missing.
The cleaning lady asked me to pray for the child's safe return.
So telling the cleaning lady I'd pray would do nothing to let the actual coworker with the missing child know anything.
Are we clear on that now? Good.
Nor was I pretending to believe in god, or in Ra for that matter. All I did was say I'd do something I wouldn't do. I was being a hypocrite just to keep a smooth relationship with a colleague I appreciate. I did this, as I explained, because praying wouldn't do squat to affect the situation. Had she asked me to wash my panties in rose water so the child would return safely, I'd have said I'd do that, too, because it wouldn't have affected anything either.
Quote:I think its premature to canonize you but I think recognizing that it is good to feel we are not alone in our difficulties, through our friends or through our relationship with God, is a good step in the right direction.
I don't understand. What direction?
Quote: Nareed[q
I don't understand. What direction?
Good one, Nareed..
Quote: Nareed
A coworker, NOT the cleaning lady, had her child go missing.
The cleaning lady asked me to pray for the child's safe return.
So telling the cleaning lady I'd pray would do nothing to let the actual coworker with the missing child know anything.
Are we clear on that now? Good.
Got it now thanks, sorry I missed that at first. I still think your act of kindness can go a lot further than you think. It helped the nice cleaning lady and maybe inspired her prayer, which contrary to your assertions are indeed powerful and helpful. So while I still say sainthood is down the road a bit I think a little credit is due you for the consideration and respect you showed your colleague.
Quote: FrGambleGot it now thanks, sorry I missed that at first.
I'd better not say anything...
Quote:I still think your act of kindness can go a lot further than you think.
Isn't anyone else bothered by my blatant display of hypocrisy?
Quote:It helped the nice cleaning lady and maybe inspired her prayer, which contrary to your assertions are indeed powerful and helpful.
My assertions? Look, there's a number of thigns people might do when confronted with events they ahve no control over, like illness or a missing child. I might have bet the cleaning lady the child would be found, or, to make it a good bet, that he wouldn't be. But that would be callous and cruel, right? I might have said "I hope the kid turns up safe." (In fact I did say that). I might have offered any help that was needed (Again, I did). And none of that would have done anything to locate the missing boy or to insure his safety.
Now, are these all assertions, too, or merely common sense observations?
Quote:So while I still say sainthood is down the road a bit I think a little credit is due you for the consideration and respect you showed your colleague.
Thank you. I don't feel particualrly good about it. I lied, after all, and I helped further a superstitious attitude. All in the name of maintaining a good working relation with a valued colleague.
Quote: Nareed
Thank you. I don't feel particualrly good about it. I lied, after all, and I helped further a superstitious attitude. All in the name of maintaining a good working relation with a valued colleague.
Sorry to ask, but if you really think you didn't do anything great why did you start this thread at the first place? Perhaps you are falling into one of the catholic principles, the confession. Is it truly guilt or you just want to start polemics and insult those who believe in miracles?
Nah. It's what we expected, so why should it bother us? ;-)Quote: NareedIsn't anyone else bothered by my blatant display of hypocrisy?
Quote: aluisioSorry to ask, but if you really think you didn't do anything great why did you start this thread at the first place?
I stated quite openly at the beginning I did nothing.
Quote:Perhaps you are falling into one of the catholic principles, the confession.
I don't believe in confession. If you've done something bad to someone, you should apologize to them and make whatever restitution is possible. You should seek their forgiveness, which is not their obligation to grant, and atone to them to whatever extent you can. "Confessing" to someone else or to a deity is worthless by my reckoning.
Quote:Is it truly guilt or you just want to start polemics and insult those who believe in miracles?
I'm exposing the fact that people who believe in miracles and prayer are too ready to believe. It's like the Martian canals phenomenon. People who wanted to see them saw them, even though we know there was nothing like that on the surface of Mars.
Quote: aluisioI think I've got it, just some simple worthless point, sometimes this issues make me confused, specially when it comes to gambling. I think there is a narrow line between what gamblers and christians believe.
It's the same mechanism. I think it's called confirmation bias.
If you, say, rub a rabbit's foor before placing a bet on 17 and it hits, you've proved rubbing the foot caused you to win. Of course if you do so on every spin, in the long run you'll lose. But you'll recall the times you won more than thsoe you lost.
A religious person, not necessarily a Christian, who prays for a favorable outcome, say for an ill person, will credit prayer for the person getting better. Again forgetting the times that didn't happen, or making excuses as to why other people they prayed for dind't get better.
BTW, in all the Jewish religious instruction I got, which wasn't that much, there wasn't a peep about praying for someone or something..
Quote: NareedIt's the same mechanism. I think it's called confirmation bias.
If you, say, rub a rabbit's foor before placing a bet on 17 and it hits, you've proved rubbing the foot caused you to win. Of course if you do so on every spin, in the long run you'll lose. But you'll recall the times you won more than thsoe you lost.
A religious person, not necessarily a Christian, who prays for a favorable outcome, say for an ill person, will credit prayer for the person getting better. Again forgetting the times that didn't happen, or making excuses as to why other people they prayed for dind't get better.
BTW, in all the Jewish religious instruction I got, which wasn't that much, there wasn't a peep about praying for someone or something..
Nareed, you should go back and read some of what was discussed in regard to public prayer in an earlier thread. Religion is not a rabbits foot and prayer is not hoping a number comes up.
A truly religious person prays to be connected to a deeper reallity than this world and to form a relationship with the Divine. It is about a worldview that is able to see something more going on than just what our weak eyes can see and our limited mind can grasp. It is about reminding ourselves that God loves us and is with us at all times, even when our number doesn't come up or the reality of what we wanted did not come to pass. It is about infusing our lives with a strength and hope that comes from above.
Quote: FrGambleIt is about a worldview that is able to see something more going on than just what our weak eyes can see and our limited mind can grasp.
Our weak eyes and limited mind given to us by god and made in god's own image of, presumably, his eyes and mind?
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the human mind is the most powerful cognitive tool in this world. We're at the top. And while our eyes are lacking in many regards, our senses are better than anything else in this world, too. We can see any wavelength from gamma rays to radio waves, courtesy of the "limited" human mind.
I've never understood why those who claim to love god disparage and belittle humanity so much.
Quote: NareedOur weak eyes and limited mind given to us by god and made in god's own image of, presumably, his eyes and mind?
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the human mind is the most powerful cognitive tool in this world. We're at the top. And while our eyes are lacking in many regards, our senses are better than anything else in this world, too. We can see any wavelength from gamma rays to radio waves, courtesy of the "limited" human mind.
I've never understood why those who claim to love god disparage and belittle humanity so much.
No disappointment here, I was recently posting about how awesome and special humanity is and a few atheists seemed to take issue with it. While I don't know if our senses are really better than anything else in this world (many animals have us beat in individual senses) maybe you meant taken together as a whole our senses are the best. Anyway, what really separates us is the human mind. Our brains are miracles and gifts that I don't think we will ever fully understand. However, I think you would agree that while very powerful they are limited. As smart as you are I think you have to admit that you don't, nor ever will, know it all. I don't see this as a design flaw but rather as the beginning of realizing there is more to this world than we can understand or see. We shouldn't limit ourselves or close ourselves off to the exciting thought that your prayers, your concern, your kindness for others makes a difference that you cannot see or understand but are very powerful.
Quote: FrGambleWhile I don't know if our senses are really better than anything else in this world (many animals have us beat in individual senses) maybe you meant taken together as a whole our senses are the best.
Our natural senses are good enough. but that wasn't my point. We've extended our sense well beyond their natural limitations. As I said, we can see gamma rays, X-rays, ultraviolet, infrared, short radio waves and long radio waves, if we so choose. We can magnify views down to the atomic level on one end and view the entire visible universe on the other. No mere animal even comes close to that.
Quote:However, I think you would agree that while very powerful they are limited. As smart as you are I think you have to admit that you don't, nor ever will, know it all.
Not at all. It surprise me people don't realize we've entered an age of practical omniscience. No one will ever know everything, but everyone now can learn anything. All it takes is a few minutes on the net.
Quote:We shouldn't limit ourselves or close ourselves off to the exciting thought that your prayers, your concern, your kindness for others makes a difference that you cannot see or understand but are very powerful.
Ayn Rand called this kind of argument a package deal. Of course concern, kindness and actions towards others have an effect. That doesn't mean prayer does, even if you include it in a package which clearly does. The first is self-evident, the latter is wishful thinking. Not unlike hanging a plush sheep on your door to insure you'll always have enough money, or holding a seance to ask Howard Hughes where his real will is.
Quote: NareedIt's the same mechanism. I think it's called confirmation bias. If you, say, rub a rabbit's foot before placing a bet on 17 and it hits, you've "proved" rubbing the foot caused you to win.
The Post hoc ergo propter hoc ("After this, therefore because of this") fallacy.
Quote: Nareed
BTW, in all the Jewish religious instruction I got, which wasn't that much, there wasn't a peep about praying for someone or something..
Every single service has a prayer for those that are ill. The rabbi asks for the congregants to say aloud any member who is need of a get well prayer. Where did you go to temple?
Quote: SOOPOOEvery single service has a prayer for those that are ill. The rabbi asks for the congregants to say aloud any member who is need of a get well prayer.
I don't recall anything like that. At the services during shivah, there's a prayer allegedly for the soul of the recently deceased. I say allegedly, because the prayer specifically for the dead, kaddish, says one sentence about the dead, amid all the flattery the omnipotent deity seems to like so well.
Quote:Where did you go to temple?
Would it do any good if I told you? I mean, do you know any temples in Mexico City? I don't mind telling. If you must know it's called "Bet-el" and it's in Avenida Horacio, right next to the Superama, a block from Vazquez de Mella. It seems a really odd question to ask.
