You ready for the changes, FrG?
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November 27th, 2011 at 7:51:48 PM
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I remember the changes with Vatican II; it was quite a difference, even for a kid. The priest turned toward the congregation, English instead of Latin, communion lines instead of the rail, head coverings not required for women... all of it seemed impossibly modern. Mrs and I unknowingly wandered into a Tridentine Mass once, some time in the early '90s; wow, that was something.
What are the big differences, and how are you going to prepare your flock?
What are the big differences, and how are you going to prepare your flock?
A falling knife has no handle.
November 28th, 2011 at 3:14:13 AM
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Ready for the changes? What, there is going to be another Vatican Council? Or are you picking on Fr. G. since he announced he wanted a respite?
Padre, what all these seeming detractors are actually saying is "we miss you and we want you back!"
Padre, what all these seeming detractors are actually saying is "we miss you and we want you back!"
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 28th, 2011 at 4:35:50 AM
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How about cool it on the ridicule of Fr G. It's fine not to be religious but that doesn't mean you have to abandon all moral values.
This may not be intended for this poster.
This may not be intended for this poster.
November 28th, 2011 at 5:22:11 AM
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Quote: dmHow about cool it on the ridicule of Fr G. It's fine not to be religious but that doesn't mean you have to abandon all moral values.
I do not believe that it is fair to say Fr G is being ridiculed here. He has, of his own free will, posted many contrioversial and unproven assertations, and has thus been engaged in a dialogue to discuss them. Just as Mr. Singer was challenged on his 'special plays', with the forum requesting some scientific/math based explanation, so has Fr G. Fr G has made many logic based attempts to explain his beliefs, which has convinced those that need no convincing, and will not convince those that cannot be convinced. I do not think anyone has 'crossed the line' in these religion threads. Although I disagree with Fr G on most of his assertions, I do enjoy and respect his point of view. I hope he continues to post.
November 28th, 2011 at 6:15:57 AM
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Hey wait a second. It was a serious question. I don't ridicule anyone who is sincere, and FrGamble is a stand-up guy. Whether or not I agree with him, I know he has my back, and I have his.
If he's decided to stop posting, I didn't see it. Once the religion stuff goes into auto-overdrive-repeat, I stop looking at it.
If he's decided to stop posting, I didn't see it. Once the religion stuff goes into auto-overdrive-repeat, I stop looking at it.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 28th, 2011 at 6:30:24 AM
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Fr was on yesterday in the GOD DOESN'T EXIST thread. I think we've driven the God vs no-god argument as far as it can go.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
November 28th, 2011 at 7:11:27 AM
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For the record, I'm clueless about the changes implied by the title of this thread. There was no mention of them in the initial post, or in Mosca's follow-up.
What is going to change?
What is going to change?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
November 28th, 2011 at 7:15:30 AM
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I heard today on the radio, that the very first response, the response to "The Lord be with you," has been changed from "And also with you," to "And with your spirit." I remember when it was, "Dominus vobiscum" and "Et cum spiritu tuo." I still remember all that stuff, and almost 50 years later can say it from memory.
the thing about mass, folks like the repetition: being able to go through a ritual, the steps comfort them. Even over the three year liturgical cycle, it's nice knowing what readings are coming up. I know the calendar didn't change, but I can't help thinking that the little changes are a step backward. "And with your spirit" seems to put some semantic distance between the words and their meaning.
DJ, the mass has been changed.
the thing about mass, folks like the repetition: being able to go through a ritual, the steps comfort them. Even over the three year liturgical cycle, it's nice knowing what readings are coming up. I know the calendar didn't change, but I can't help thinking that the little changes are a step backward. "And with your spirit" seems to put some semantic distance between the words and their meaning.
DJ, the mass has been changed.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 28th, 2011 at 8:05:48 AM
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I'm not going anywhere, I really like this forum, the discussions, and the people. I also like this thread and think it is totally sincere and interesting, for me anyway.
Some background: Last weekend, the first Sunday of Advent, the Catholic Church unveiled the biggest liturgical changes in the Mass since Vatican II in the 60's. The Mass is fundamentally the same but now has a new English translation of the third Roman Missal (where the prayers at Mass come from). This change was eight years in coming but of course everyone waits till the last moment. I started preparing the parish after the summer but it seemed like no one wanted to talk about it until a couple of weeks ago. I spent two weeks preaching about the changes and had some materials available for people to learn more about it. It was kind of a fun Mass this weekend, it felt like my first Mass all over again. I like the new translation, it is a little more formal and solemn sounding.
Here is funny incident from my parish that was somehow captured nationally on twitter: @CatholicReview: St. Paul Church: "And also w you." Priest: "One more time." Church: "And also w your spirit." Priest: "One more time..."
here is a great link if you want to know more Mass Changes Video
Some background: Last weekend, the first Sunday of Advent, the Catholic Church unveiled the biggest liturgical changes in the Mass since Vatican II in the 60's. The Mass is fundamentally the same but now has a new English translation of the third Roman Missal (where the prayers at Mass come from). This change was eight years in coming but of course everyone waits till the last moment. I started preparing the parish after the summer but it seemed like no one wanted to talk about it until a couple of weeks ago. I spent two weeks preaching about the changes and had some materials available for people to learn more about it. It was kind of a fun Mass this weekend, it felt like my first Mass all over again. I like the new translation, it is a little more formal and solemn sounding.
Here is funny incident from my parish that was somehow captured nationally on twitter: @CatholicReview: St. Paul Church: "And also w you." Priest: "One more time." Church: "And also w your spirit." Priest: "One more time..."
here is a great link if you want to know more Mass Changes Video
November 28th, 2011 at 9:24:35 AM
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OK, now we find out what the heck this is about.
The first time I walked into an Episcopal church with my Episcopalian wife, I nearly went sprawling as she knelt to one knee without warning; I was right behind her. So you can imagine how far removed I am from being up to date on this Catholic news! [g]
The first time I walked into an Episcopal church with my Episcopalian wife, I nearly went sprawling as she knelt to one knee without warning; I was right behind her. So you can imagine how far removed I am from being up to date on this Catholic news! [g]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 28th, 2011 at 10:23:06 AM
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Mosca -
Thanks for the info.
Thanks for the info.
Glad to know I wasn't the only one in the dark.Quote: odiousgambitOK, now we find out what the heck this is about.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
November 28th, 2011 at 11:32:26 AM
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Y'know, I'm so close to Catholicism I sometimes think everyone is as well. Catholics take comfort in the repetition. Those outside find it boring and nonsensical, but inside of it there is beauty and timelessness. It's comforting to be able to go to mass anywhere in the US and it's the same. Back when I went to church, we once went to mass in the basement of an apartment building, and sat on folding chairs. It was the same mass. I've been to mass in gymnasiums, and in St Peter's in NYC. It's as if it were this silent force, in the background of the world. It's very powerful. But change one or two words, and it's jarring; people freak. FrG, remember when you stopped ringing the bells? Everyone was whispering, "Where'd the bells go?" Heck, change the version of the Eucharistic Prayer and people notice: "Hey, that's the long one today!" People are going to have opinions about this, they can't help it. No one's going to leave because of it, but they'll care.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 28th, 2011 at 4:00:01 PM
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I remember in the early 70's when they started
playing guitars and doing other strange things
in the Church. Some Catholics I knew were
really freaked out by it and left forever.
playing guitars and doing other strange things
in the Church. Some Catholics I knew were
really freaked out by it and left forever.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 28th, 2011 at 4:56:44 PM
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Yep, I remember that too, Bob. Lots of Baptists were created then.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 28th, 2011 at 8:04:59 PM
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The change I liked the most was they had reruns of
Gilligans Island playing in the confessionals in case the
priests got bored.
Gilligans Island playing in the confessionals in case the
priests got bored.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 28th, 2011 at 9:21:08 PM
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Quote: MoscaY'know, I'm so close to Catholicism I sometimes think everyone is as well. Catholics take comfort in the repetition. Those outside find it boring and nonsensical, but inside of it there is beauty and timelessness. It's comforting to be able to go to mass anywhere in the US and it's the same. Back when I went to church, we once went to mass in the basement of an apartment building, and sat on folding chairs. It was the same mass. I've been to mass in gymnasiums, and in St Peter's in NYC. It's as if it were this silent force, in the background of the world. It's very powerful. But change one or two words, and it's jarring; people freak. FrG, remember when you stopped ringing the bells? Everyone was whispering, "Where'd the bells go?" Heck, change the version of the Eucharistic Prayer and people notice: "Hey, that's the long one today!" People are going to have opinions about this, they can't help it. No one's going to leave because of it, but they'll care.
Great post Mosca. So far the response from people here has been cautious acceptance. It changes the tone of Mass a little bit towards the more formal side but it isn't too jarring for people. There has been in a movement lately to bring back much of the smells and bells of the old days. In fact last year we reintorduced the bells to the parish and they loved it.
November 29th, 2011 at 1:08:45 AM
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Quote: FrGambleThere has been in a movement lately to bring back much of the smells and bells of the old days. In fact last year we reintorduced the bells to the parish and they loved it.
I laughed when I read this because it reminds me so
much of Voodoo ceremonies. The African slaves incorporated
a lot of Roman Catholic goodies into their practices, like
burning incense and bell ringing. Candles are a huge part
of the religion, just like it is with Catholics. They cross themselves
and use Hail Mary's. VooDoo is yet another entity the Church has
gone out of its way to try and destroy.
"First and foremost Voodoo is a religion. It is the dominant religion of Haiti.
In 1941-42 the Catholic Church waged an all out holy war against Voodoo. They burned peristyle, Voodoo shrines, beat (some say even killed) houngans and mambo, demanded their ostracism from society. But, they lost. Voodoo went under-ground to some extent, but it grew in popularity, in large measure because of the oppression."
Ah, the Church was still up to their old tricks
just 70 years ago. Old habits are hard to break..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 29th, 2011 at 2:05:12 AM
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>How about cool it on the ridicule of Fr G.
I ain't been ridiculing nobody.
>It's fine not to be religious
I don't think anyone would describe me as religious, but I think many religious people do not want to tolerate those who are not religious. They particularly do not want to tolerate those who are not of their own religious beliefs. The real problem is in actions rather than beliefs: build a community hospital, but only practice Catholic medicine, be licensed under the law as a physician but refuse to obey DNR orders, be licensed as a pharmacist but allow abortion-related beliefs to affect stocking and dispensing medications.
>but that doesn't mean you have to abandon all moral values.
I don't know if I have any of those either. People are usually judged by their actions not their moral values and people often act impulsively and often beyond the scope of their value systems. Moral values are often as arbitrary, capricious and ill-defined as religious values and just as often applied in an inconsistent manner.
I ain't been ridiculing nobody.
>It's fine not to be religious
I don't think anyone would describe me as religious, but I think many religious people do not want to tolerate those who are not religious. They particularly do not want to tolerate those who are not of their own religious beliefs. The real problem is in actions rather than beliefs: build a community hospital, but only practice Catholic medicine, be licensed under the law as a physician but refuse to obey DNR orders, be licensed as a pharmacist but allow abortion-related beliefs to affect stocking and dispensing medications.
>but that doesn't mean you have to abandon all moral values.
I don't know if I have any of those either. People are usually judged by their actions not their moral values and people often act impulsively and often beyond the scope of their value systems. Moral values are often as arbitrary, capricious and ill-defined as religious values and just as often applied in an inconsistent manner.
November 29th, 2011 at 3:40:39 PM
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"Upon the return of Roman Catholicism to Haiti in 1860 the Church began a long on-again, off-again campaign against Voodoo, culminating in an all out war, the anti-superstition campaign of the 1940s. From the 1950s onward, especially after the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church has incorporated Voodoo music, drumming and dance into the Catholic liturgy and worked to co-opt rather than defeat the Voodoo serviteurs."
This is the problem with Catholics, their gut reaction
to things they don't like was to wipe it out, kill it. Not
tolerate it, not try and change it from within. Thats
only been their policy basically since Vatican II.
The interesting thing about VooDoo is it welcomes
homosexuals with open arms. They don't discriminate
against anybody for any reason. Christians don't like
them because they use both sides of the coin in
their religion, the god side and the Satan side, to
achieve a balance. They don't worship Satan, but
neither do they ignore what Satan stands for.
This is the problem with Catholics, their gut reaction
to things they don't like was to wipe it out, kill it. Not
tolerate it, not try and change it from within. Thats
only been their policy basically since Vatican II.
The interesting thing about VooDoo is it welcomes
homosexuals with open arms. They don't discriminate
against anybody for any reason. Christians don't like
them because they use both sides of the coin in
their religion, the god side and the Satan side, to
achieve a balance. They don't worship Satan, but
neither do they ignore what Satan stands for.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 29th, 2011 at 4:08:09 PM
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Well, I don't know. I see a good man who happens to be a Catholic priest. I think I should be able to deal with that without having to bring up the origin of reality.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 29th, 2011 at 4:19:05 PM
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Quote: MoscaWell, I don't know. I see a good man who happens to be a Catholic priest. I think I should be able to deal with that without having to bring up the origin of reality.
So the past counts for nothing. I don't think so..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 29th, 2011 at 4:39:46 PM
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Quote: EvenBobSo the past counts for nothing. I don't think so..
We're different people, with different ways of seeing things.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 29th, 2011 at 5:17:44 PM
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For starters, you're a Catholic and I'm not. I have
no problem in seeing the Church and everything
its stood for in the past 1500 years. I can't ignore
the past for the convenience of the present. The
Catholics have always claimed god and Jesus runs
the Church, the Pope is god's right hand man on
earth. Now they want to ignore what god and Jesus
told them to do in the past? Things don't really
work that way. If they were such monumental
screwups for such a huge period of time, what
makes any sane person think its different now.
no problem in seeing the Church and everything
its stood for in the past 1500 years. I can't ignore
the past for the convenience of the present. The
Catholics have always claimed god and Jesus runs
the Church, the Pope is god's right hand man on
earth. Now they want to ignore what god and Jesus
told them to do in the past? Things don't really
work that way. If they were such monumental
screwups for such a huge period of time, what
makes any sane person think its different now.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 29th, 2011 at 6:06:53 PM
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Yes, you've made that clear, many times. Regardless, it doesn't mean that I have to see things the same way you do, does it? Do you think you will be able to change me into you through the sheer force of your argument, or through the total weight of your words? Of course not.
And by the way, I'm not Catholic.
And by the way, I'm not Catholic.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 29th, 2011 at 6:39:40 PM
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Quote: MoscaDo you think you will be able to change me into you through the sheer force of your argument.
Why is god's name would you think I give a rats
behind about 'changing' anybody? I don't know
you, I know nothing about you, you're a name
on an internet forum. I post for my own edification
only, something I learned on the message boards
20 years ago. If you start writing to change people
or influence them, you have a serious problem. I
post to bolster my own position, or to entertain
myself. I post because I learn things when I investigate
a subject. You (or anybody else) never enter into it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 29th, 2011 at 6:45:27 PM
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Yeah, well, OK.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 29th, 2011 at 7:02:26 PM
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Mosca, thanks again.
As we are going through the daily Masses I am becoming more conscious of how many more changes I have to worry about than the people. The private prayers of the priest are also very different, here is an example of the changes I say privately when purifying the vessels:
Old Translation:
Lord, may I receive these gifts in purity of heart. May they bring me healing and strength, now and for ever.
New Translation:
What has passed our lips as food, O Lord, may we possess in purity of heart, that what has been given to us in time may be our healing for eternity.
Long after the pew cards are no longer needed for the faithful I will still be reading these prayers from the missal. By the way the only complaint I've heard so far is from a parishioner who likes the new translation but doesn't like the fact that daily Mass is a few minutes longer now.
As we are going through the daily Masses I am becoming more conscious of how many more changes I have to worry about than the people. The private prayers of the priest are also very different, here is an example of the changes I say privately when purifying the vessels:
Old Translation:
Lord, may I receive these gifts in purity of heart. May they bring me healing and strength, now and for ever.
New Translation:
What has passed our lips as food, O Lord, may we possess in purity of heart, that what has been given to us in time may be our healing for eternity.
Long after the pew cards are no longer needed for the faithful I will still be reading these prayers from the missal. By the way the only complaint I've heard so far is from a parishioner who likes the new translation but doesn't like the fact that daily Mass is a few minutes longer now.
November 29th, 2011 at 7:04:22 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffPeople are usually judged by their actions not their moral values.
That's because "Morals aren't what you would do if; they are what you will do when."
November 29th, 2011 at 7:40:17 PM
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Quote: FrGambleThe private prayers of the priest are also very different, here is an example of the changes I say privately
What makes these prayers any more valid than prayers
used in any other religion. A prayer is a prayer, if there
was a god, he surely wouldn't ingore and discriminate.
Would he.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 29th, 2011 at 8:02:57 PM
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Quote: FrGambleBy the way the only complaint I've heard so far is from a parishioner who likes the new translation but doesn't like the fact that daily Mass is a few minutes longer now.
Haha, you do understand that as the minute hand nears the hour, all the parishioners are checking: Will he go over? Or, How far under? As it has always been!
A falling knife has no handle.
