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FrGamble
FrGamble
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February 9th, 2014 at 9:24:17 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Response to the Kravitz argument:

Your intentions may be good, but they grasp a self-defeating argument claiming proof which isn't there scientifically.



I think much depends on our definition of science, proof, and what is meant by scientifically? We sometimes make the mistake in thinking that information gained by hypothesis, observation, experimentation, and verification is the only type of knowledge there is. If science or the scientific method was indeed the only way we gained knowledge than an argument for a certain type of God based on proof would be self-defeating. Thank God there is more to our world and to us than what our limited senses and the observable universe can teach us. Deeper truths are calling out to us than can ever be found by science as we limit it today.
beachbumbabs
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February 9th, 2014 at 11:09:22 PM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

There is only one Jesus and it is one of the wonderful things that all Christians believe whether you are Catholic, Episcopal, Fundamentalist or a Christian Hippie. Jesus is the incarnate Son of God who came to save humanity by sacrificing His life for the forgiveness of sins and salvation of all.

Talk about a credible witness; here is all of Christianity around the world testifying to same Lord Jesus Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life.



FrGamble,

If only that were true. Jesus is the same in name only to those who use their Christianity to exclude and divide, which is the vast majority of sects. Not enough just to name the heathens among non-Christians (which is offensive enough), but to reject others within their own belief system. Look at a thousand bloody years in the UK among Catholics and Protestants. Look at the ugliness spread daily from Fundamentalists condemning traditional Christians, damned to eternal Hell for their non-belief in a narrow and restrictive path to Christ. Look at the Spanish Inquisition and a thousand martyrs to their particular style of worship. You look; I can't any more.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AxelWolf
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February 10th, 2014 at 2:01:31 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

three miracles

FrGamble help me out here and explain a few things

I still cant understand why god is so tricky and plays games with us or himself, I guess he likes a challenge.

Why dose god not just stop all the confusion? Why allow so may horrible things to happen? especially in his own churches. Why all the molestation? He can do miracles, Moving Mountains etc etc. But he cant help innocent children and their private parts remain priest free?

I understand high school kids may be little bastards, but why cant he can't he at least shield elementary kids from gunmen? Maybe he did and the other kids deserved to die.Perhaps he may have been to busy killing thousands with natural disasters at the time. Or perhaps he was to busy sending angels to hospital rooms.

People invented gods to explain things they didn't understand in the world, they still do this today. There are so many different gods(thousands) its insane. Everyone who has a belief in their gad thinks his or her god is the real god. What are the chances YOU are right? You say you have faith? So do all the other people. What are the odds you are right vs society has just made up god? If you were to take the word faith out of religion it would crumble, they would have nothing.

PS What dose FrGamble mean? I was under the assumption God was not much for gambling. Spreading the word of god or whatever you are attempting on this thread, with such a seemingly blasphemous name seems a bit hypocritical. Then again I wouldn't expect nothing less form a bible______.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Nareed
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February 10th, 2014 at 8:01:22 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

If science or the scientific method was indeed the only way we gained knowledge than an argument for a certain type of God based on proof would be self-defeating.



But that's how we gain knowledge. Ergo all arguments for any kind of deity are self-defeating.

Now, that brings us to the crux of the matter: the above being so, why and how does religion persist?

In science there are no useless questions. And the best answers are those that give rise to further questions.

Quote:

Thank God there is more to our world and to us than what our limited senses and the observable universe can teach us. Deeper truths are calling out to us than can ever be found by science as we limit it today.



That's not just self-defeating but counter-productive. You can make the same argument for astrology, numerology, dianetics, acupuncture and any other thing you want.

BTW, the latest results form CERN are veyr interestnig. It seems the Higss Boson was the last piece missing from the Standard Model. Unfortunately this leaves a very large number of questiosn unanswered, most particularly including the nature of gravity. And no word at all on Dark Matter or Dark Energy, so far. This si very itneresting because it hints at some further realm of nature unkown and largely unsuspected thus far. Or it may hint at the real limits of our understanding or our ability to probe nature.

No connection to the thread, but I thought I'd post it anwyay.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
beachbumbabs
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February 10th, 2014 at 8:28:14 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


PS What dose FrGamble mean? I was under the assumption God was not much for gambling. Spreading the word of god or whatever you are attempting on this thread, with such a seemingly blasphemous name seems a bit hypocritical. Then again I wouldn't expect nothing less form a bible______.



Axel,

Funny you should ask this; I was wondering about it myself the other day. FrGamble played with us in the NFL picks, but I don't think it's hypocritical for a priest to enjoy gaming. I do think there are several things happening here, and I wonder which are a factor for him, if any. If Father is a Jesuit, for example (I went to a Jesuit university), he may be enjoying the intellectual exercise of self-examination and defense of his faith; the priests I knew there were constantly questioning not just the students', but their own beliefs and tenets, in order to strenghten and grow their faith. He may see this gathering of apparently large percentages of agnostics, atheists, and non-Christians (compared to many available groups) as an ideal outreach point to prosthelytize about his faith; Christ and many followers of His (Mother Teresa was a good example of this) went where they perceived a need, not where they were already welcome. And he may just enjoy the eclectic interaction among people whose common interest is gambling, not like-minded faith; he probably finds it a refreshing change from his primary interactions with people as a priest first. At least those were my thoughts, and I wanted to throw them out there before he answers your question, just for my own amusement. Glad you asked; I didn't quite have the nerve.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
FrGamble
FrGamble
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February 10th, 2014 at 8:34:08 AM permalink
I'd much rather respond to the likes of Babs than AxelWolf but I think they are both proposing the most serious objection to the Christian understanding of God.

First of all to correct Axel - the idea of God is not made up to explain what we don't understand. If you were paying attention to some of the posts before the idea of an uncaused cause, unomoved mover, aka "God" is the logical foundation to our universe and how things all were created. You might not believe in a personal or loving God but don't confuse that with the basic idea that nothing can come from nothing and that there had to be some higher immaterial and non-contingent force, maybe an impersonal one, outside of space and time.

Understanding this you can see how this "God" has been know and understood throughout history. Our beliefs about God have evolved or developed over time, from hundreds of different gods and ideas to now the vast majority of believers understanding there is one God with a system of beliefs based on revelation. Who is to say this process won't continue leading eventually to the universal acceptance of Christ in thousands of years? I'm hopeful, but I do not begrudge anyone their sincerely held religious beliefs except for those like violent Musliums, Westboro Christians, and mean Atheists like yourself who do more harm than good for their respective belief systems and our world.

I hope you also realize that faith is not all there is in regard to religion. People don't continue to believe because of some blind faith. Faith is a reasonable act of the will and the mind, which is based on trust and experience. Take away faith and you are left with conviction based on experiences of a loving God who is present even in the midst of great suffering. In Heaven there will be no need for faith. Faith, Hope, and Love - the greatest of these is love. Love is the essence of religion, take that away and indeed religion and all humanity would crumble.

Finally, I do hear you and Babs both with your natural and reasonable emotional response to the fact of evil and suffering in the world. It does cause many to reject God, or at least the idea of a loving God. However, I wonder if we reject God through our tears about the sadness we feel about life, what are we left with? All the sadness and sin and none of the hope. Don't give up. Rejecting God is not an answer to the problem of evil, it is a depressing defeat.

I probably should have done this in a couple of posts so I will stop for now.
FrGamble
FrGamble
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February 10th, 2014 at 8:36:06 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Axel,

Funny you should ask this; I was wondering about it myself the other day. FrGamble played with us in the NFL picks, but I don't think it's hypocritical for a priest to enjoy gaming. I do think there are several things happening here, and I wonder which are a factor for him, if any. If Father is a Jesuit, for example (I went to a Jesuit university), he may be enjoying the intellectual exercise of self-examination and defense of his faith; the priests I knew there were constantly questioning not just the students', but their own beliefs and tenets, in order to strenghten and grow their faith. He may see this gathering of apparently large percentages of agnostics, atheists, and non-Christians (compared to many available groups) as an ideal outreach point to prosthelytize about his faith; Christ and many followers of His (Mother Teresa was a good example of this) went where they perceived a need, not where they were already welcome. And he may just enjoy the eclectic interaction among people whose common interest is gambling, not like-minded faith; he probably finds it a refreshing change from his primary interactions with people as a priest first. At least those were my thoughts, and I wanted to throw them out there before he answers your question, just for my own amusement. Glad you asked; I didn't quite have the nerve.



+1, except I'm not a Jesuit.
Face
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February 10th, 2014 at 8:37:40 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed


BTW, the latest results form CERN are veyr interestnig. It seems the Higss Boson was the last piece missing from the Standard Model. Unfortunately this leaves a very large number of questiosn unanswered, most particularly including the nature of gravity. And no word at all on Dark Matter or Dark Energy, so far. This si very itneresting because it hints at some further realm of nature unkown and largely unsuspected thus far. Or it may hint at the real limits of our understanding or our ability to probe nature.



I've felt like technology had only been getting faster and new stuff is being found everyday. But I feel like we're about to gain information that's going to totally blow open a long held mystery. A "critical mass of information", if you will. It's a fun time to be alive =)

Anyways, back to Kravitz.

I have a hard time... no, that's not right. I completely disregard any anecdotal evidence from a human on these types of subjects, and that included ones which might be "for my side", like the people who "die" and report nothing but blackness. It's just not reliable. It's not "truth".

See, I've experienced things. I remember as a youth hearing about these same instances, or "crazy people" who heard and seen things that don't really exist, and it was hard to relate. But since that time, I've experienced things myself which lead me to believe there is nothing whatsoever behind these claims.

The human mind is a weird thing. Without certain parts of it, there would be no sight to see, no hearing to hear, no sense to smell. All of these experiences are possible by way of receptors to gather and a brain to process. The thing is, this incredibly complex system that allows those things to happen sometimes goes on the fritz.

LSD is a great one for testing those bounds. LSD works by expanding the pathways these senses take. Instead of a sense going from the receptor to the specific area that translates it, the "translators" become all interconnected. Everything lights up. Your sense of hearing, for example, is allowed to follow the path to, and be interpreted by, your sight translator. As a result, you can "see" music. Your memory can connect to these, too, so just thinking of grandma's apple pie can cause you to actually smell and taste it as if it were "right there". It's a weird thing. The amount of things that I have "seen" would boggle the mind, but although I "saw" them as sure as I'm typing this out today, none of those things were real. None of them existed.

And while those experiences where caused by chemical manipulation, the same effects can be caused by other reasons. I remember an incident whereby I received a nasty concussion. Being kids, I was dragged off the field and left on the sideline, only barely conscious. As I laid there in a haze, somewhere between the barn and the cow pasture, I distinctly remember a snake larger than any that had ever lived skulking in the cornfield. I saw it slowly slithering closer and closer, ignorant of the birds screeching and dive bombing it in protest. I fell unconscious and was shaken awake a few minutes later, and it was still there, even closer. I saw my friends running and chasing each other, oblivious of it, and I, unable to warn them. That snake was there. I saw it. But it never existed.

I guess what I'm saying is we get so used to the brain working mostly flawlessly that we forget how incredibly complex and fragile it really is. And the amount of damage or interruption it takes to make it do some wild and far out things is incredibly miniscule. Just the slightest tweak to it and you can experience heaven or the worse nightmare imaginable. I've no doubt they "see" them. I've no doubt it feels as real as a touch from a loved one. Because to them, it is. I've been there. And it was. But my great grandfather's claims of bugs and beetles crawling up the walls as he passed existed no more than the angels, demons, or any other thing people claim as they pass. It's just a malfunction of a damaged, dying mind.
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Nareed
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February 10th, 2014 at 10:28:57 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

First of all to correct Axel - the idea of God is not made up to explain what we don't understand. If you were paying attention to some of the posts before the idea of an uncaused cause, unomoved mover, aka "God" is the logical foundation to our universe and how things all were created.



The problem persists that you cannot prove any of this.

But, believe it or not, I don't mind at all, not even a little, if you choose to believe this. As far as I'm concerned you can bleive whatever you want, in any way you want. It's when such beliefs are used to oppress, repress and otherwise justify the use of violence against other people that decent people must make a stand and push back.

If you intend to limit my rights, my freedom and my life, you'd better have something a lot better than what you've posted here. And even then you shouidl expect nothing less than massive objections and resistance.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
rxwine
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February 10th, 2014 at 12:05:25 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

You can make the same argument for astrology, numerology, dianetics, acupuncture and any other thing you want.



Religious "proof" is also perfectly adequate for systems of gamblers. You can make elusive claims of proof for your system. Any hard evidence to the contrary is no obstacle to believers. You can claim rare miracles of success that no one else has witnessed and no one can reproduce, except from other sketchy circumstances or players. You can have followers to back you up. You can talk about what's his name back in the old days who made big bucks from the system to give it an historical respectability like ancient wisdom. You can write authoritative books about it. You can sometimes even get people to give you money for "secrets" and perhaps make a living. You can become a teacher imparting wisdom. You can more or less become head of your own church.

The church of baloney. The church of hooey. The church of gambling systems. The church.
The Hall of Unverified Claims is a vast place with many shelves.

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