AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 151
  • Posts: 20042
February 16th, 2014 at 1:27:30 AM permalink
Quote: skrbornevrymin

Actually, I agree with Nareed in saying that some interpretations of "Christianity" have caused and can cause very bad and depraved things to happen, both historically and in the world today. This does not mean that all religion is bad, or even that all Christianity is bad. We, as human beings, should strive to correctly identify and fully understand truth and goodness whenever and wherever we find it. We, individually, need to judge what we hear, see, and feel for ourselves, for what it is.

Whenever something does not "ring true" we are right to be skeptical and to reject it, if found to be incorrect. Even Jesus Christ said "by their fruits ye shall know them" and taught us to see for ourselves what is true (or not), so that we will not be deceived. We should also be careful as to what we hold up as "true and good" and what we deseminate as "true and good", especially if we have not examined and tested it carefully.

Accepting and/or following false or twisted beliefs is what causes and allows the badness and depravity to happen and continue to happen.

On the flip side, we should be open to, and be prepared to, accept and embrace goodness (in all its forms) after we have tested and found it to be "true and good".

Can you answer some hard questions
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
skrbornevrymin
skrbornevrymin
Joined: Jun 24, 2011
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 168
February 16th, 2014 at 1:37:08 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Hows that working out for him? Why do this ? Was he board? Dose he like to play games? He is GOD and he can do anything why not just change the rules or something? Just like humans and slavery, we realized it was a bad thing and changed the rules. I still want someone to answer why he lets so many innocent children die? You cant blame free will when a bus full of children crash and die.



Because death is not the end. We are all eternal beings and will live with Him and be a part of His Goodness forever, if we choose. Why would He change the rules when things are going exactly as they are supposed to, more or less. He makes up for any discrepencies as needed and life continues to roll right along. It's not the suffering or the bad things that happen that are the key, it is how we react and deal with them that matters. In the end, he will make sure that everyone gets a "fair and just" judgement and reward, even the innocent children.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 151
  • Posts: 20042
February 16th, 2014 at 2:08:51 AM permalink
Quote: skrbornevrymin

Because death is not the end. We are all eternal beings and will live with Him and be a part of His Goodness forever, if we choose. Why would He change the rules when things are going exactly as they are supposed to, more or less. He makes up for any discrepencies as needed and life continues to roll right along. It's not the suffering or the bad things that happen that are the key, it is how we react and deal with them that matters. In the end, he will make sure that everyone gets a "fair and just" judgement and reward, even the innocent children.

I guess its all interpretation. I was under the understanding that everyone is born into sin, sinners can't go to heaven. You may say that babies and children do go to heaven however what would then keep deprate parents from killing their children just to make sure they went to heaven.

So children suffering is just to see how they react, and their prize for such things is a fair judgment. or dose he punish children to see how others react.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
February 16th, 2014 at 4:16:46 AM permalink
Quote: skrbornevrymin

God created us with free will, knowing beforehand that in following our free will we will all make mistakes, otherwise known as sin.



You see, that's a very troubling statement.

I don't believe in sin. That is, a bad or even an evil act is, of course, real, and really bad morally speaking. But such acts are classified as bad or evil because of how they affect others, not because some deity defined them arbitrarily that way.

In any case, for an action to be evil it needs to be deliberate. A mistake is NOT made deliberately, but rather by accident, or as a consequence of incomplete or wrong information. And such things, though they may carry moral responsibility, are not malicious.

Conversely, regarding an evil action, such as rape or murder, as a "mistake" trivializes it and implies a lesser amount of moral responsibility than it really carries.

As to the moral responsibility of a mistake, this means the person who made it should at least attempt to redress the party or parties affected. Not that they should be punished for it.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
skrbornevrymin
skrbornevrymin
Joined: Jun 24, 2011
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 168
February 16th, 2014 at 7:26:44 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I guess its all interpretation. I was under the understanding that everyone is born into sin, sinners can't go to heaven. You may say that babies and children do go to heaven however what would then keep deprate parents from killing their children just to make sure they went to heaven.

So children suffering is just to see how they react, and their prize for such things is a fair judgment. or dose he punish children to see how others react.



God doesn't punish children, but allows the choices of man to have natural consequences including death or worse.

Because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God, the technical definition of "sin" is anything that seperates us from God or makes us "unclean." It is up to us to keep ourselves "clean", but God knows that this is impossible for man to actually do in practice. Therefore, he provided an atonement for the remainder though his Son Jesus Christ, who was the only person who ever lived who was perfect enough to do such a thing. Through Christ's atonement we are able to become "clean" again and thus have the abiliity to enter into the presence of God.
skrbornevrymin
skrbornevrymin
Joined: Jun 24, 2011
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 168
February 16th, 2014 at 7:36:18 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

You see, that's a very troubling statement.

I don't believe in sin. That is, a bad or even an evil act is, of course, real, and really bad morally speaking. But such acts are classified as bad or evil because of how they affect others, not because some deity defined them arbitrarily that way.

In any case, for an action to be evil it needs to be deliberate. A mistake is NOT made deliberately, but rather by accident, or as a consequence of incomplete or wrong information. And such things, though they may carry moral responsibility, are not malicious.

Conversely, regarding an evil action, such as rape or murder, as a "mistake" trivializes it and implies a lesser amount of moral responsibility than it really carries.

As to the moral responsibility of a mistake, this means the person who made it should at least attempt to redress the party or parties affected. Not that they should be punished for it.



Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it doesn't affect you.

You are correct in saying that there are various degrees of sin and that some are far more grevious than others. However, the ultimate effect of sin, regardless of how grevious or how minor is that it can prevent us from dwelling in the presence of God.

You are also correct in saying that proper repentence for sin should include an attempt to redress the party or parties that we have affected. But even in our best attempts to do so, we will fall short because we are human. The atonement of Christ in this regard is at least two fold: it allows for the "healing" of those affected as well as makes clean the offender if he truely repents.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
February 16th, 2014 at 7:48:53 AM permalink
Quote: skrbornevrymin

Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it doesn't affect you.



Just because you believe in something doesn't mean it does exist and it affects you.

Quote:

You are correct in saying that there are various degrees of sin



You're wrong. I said there is no such thing as sin. I will kindly thank you not to say I believe in the idea of sin.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
February 16th, 2014 at 8:29:42 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Just because you believe in something doesn't mean it does exist and it affects you.


This is true, a very good point. With a half-dozen conflicting religions, either most are wrong or all are wrong. We get this "I'm right - you're wrong!" and even "We have the right to take from, force into servitude, and kill the [infidels, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu's women, etc.]" Stay out of the fray.

Nareed said "Christianity is bad, but people are fundamentally decent."
I disagree. I think Religion may be bad, (well Buddhism seems peaceful and mind-your-own business, live and let live...),
but that really, people are bad. They're (we're) selfish, scamming, corrupt, un-contributory, and really don't give a flying F about anyone but themselves and family, and in many cases, even screw over family. Life is often hard because of others corruption, laziness, and greed, and not because we're decent and we have it together and deserve better. Planet Earth is often viewed as a "realm of hell" - and Calvinistic thought is that your lot in life is decreed (predetermined) by the Almighty. We do appear to be stuck with our lot in life, but a lot of it is how we apply ourselves including working smart and striving smart and ethically. "You want fries with that burger? that'll be $5.89, please drive up to the next window..." versus doing something or building something useful and creative, like this site or "One for the Money." Some people believe God helps those who help themselves, and others believe it is just you who has a responsibility to help yourself, (and this is not an endorsement of AP play, here....)

Buddhists (and surprisingly atheists) believe that earth is a realm of hell simply because of ourselves, and Buddhist thought is that through reincarnation, we get born into the world and environments we actually deserve - and get, and that this system is basically perfect even if you don't like it one iota. Kind of like "a lesson is repeated until it is learned," and "You are what you make of yourself over many lifetimes." You're a crook? Get born in Somalia with an empty rice bowl. You're a saint? Get born a senator's son or the son of a General Electric Vice president - where you may still fall from grace all spoiled.

If there is a God, he may be saying "you starve and kill yourselves, but blame me and do it in my name, you deserve yourselves. It NEVER ends with you guys..."

Sin is immorality as it relates to God's view. You don't have to believe in that for indecency to exist and see it.
I don't blame religion or religious thought, I blame man and human thought, although religious justification of crimes is huge; honor killings, stoning to death rape victims on the basis of religious fornication charges, etc.,

You're wrong. I said there is no such thing as sin. I will kindly thank you not to say I believe in the idea of sin.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
February 16th, 2014 at 9:25:43 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Nareed said "Christianity is bad, but people are fundamentally decent."
I disagree. I think Religion may be bad, (well Buddhism seems peaceful and mind-your-own business, live and let live...),
but that really, people are bad. They're (we're) selfish, scamming, corrupt, un-contributory, and really don't give a flying F about anyone but themselves and family, and in many cases, even screw over family.



I still believe people are basically decent, and most of them, the vast majority of them, want to be decent. The problems come when one person or group think they have a right to someone else's life and/or property. Even then, societies have evolved institutions in a way that has civilized much of this wrong-doing, tamed it if you will.

Consider drug prohibition. Yes, drugs are terrible. There's no question of that. But the effort to eliminate drugs is a hundred times worse than the drugs it seeks to eliminate. It's true that a person may ruin their lives with drugs. It's true that a person given a prison sentence and marked as a felon will have their life ruined more effectively.

And what is behind the prohibition? the idea that some people have a right to other people's lives. In this case how they should live and what they can and cannot do.

Quote:

Buddhists (and surprisingly atheists) believe that earth is a realm of hell simply because of ourselves,



We part ways on that one.

Right now life in much of the West is the best it's ever been. We enjoy good nutrition (perhaps too good), good overall medical care, countless means of entertainment are easily available and afforable, we can choose to spend our free time learning about any subject conceivable, we can travel even long distances quickly and for a resonable cost, and that's just a part of it.

To be sure there remain battles to fight and worlds to conquer, but it is a great time to be alive.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
24Bingo
24Bingo
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1348
February 16th, 2014 at 9:53:41 AM permalink
God is always going to be depraved, because He's the personification of a depraved universe. It's perverse to both personify and love a single God. It's not even just our own doing, unless you believe in a kind of natural empathy as many Buddhists do - look how hostile just about everything on Earth is to human life, and how totally hostile everything not on Earth is.

But I disagree with her assessment of Calvinism, in that it's not that there's nothing we can do, only that God has decided whether we're going to do it. It's sort of a logical conclusion of the existence of God - the same way that preacher got in hot water for saying the Holocaust was part of God's plan, but isn't that a logical necessity of monotheism? In any conceivable universe with a single god and the idea of eternal damnation, that god must have known some of us were to be damned. Especially when most Protestants, and until the sixties knowledgeable Catholics, hold that most of the world is damned for not believing what's almost certainly false. Calvin just happened to both think about this and accept it (you should see the Church's weaselling on this!), which made the depravity of the being he had to love a bit too evident.

In any case, in reality, I don't think determinism and free will are incompatible, when you recognize that determinism encompasses both agent and action - internally, free will exists, the same way centrifugal force exists, or the same way a kind of relativistic Tychonic geocentrism could create a workable (albeit impossibly complicated) model.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.

  • Jump to: