Face
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October 21st, 2011 at 4:06:13 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Exactly. I think the whole thing was made up by Four Winds
to scare hole carders. There is no hard evidence anywhere
that this happened, just here-say, which is worthless.



Does that mean it didn't happen, though? Just because the Tribe can't prosecute doesn't mean the State can't. If MI has gaming laws that say this is prohibited, then this absolutely could happen.
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EvenBob
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October 21st, 2011 at 4:20:45 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Does that mean it didn't happen, though? Just because the Tribe can't prosecute doesn't mean the State can't. If MI has gaming laws that say this is prohibited, then this absolutely could happen.



I can't find any evidence of somebody being prosecuted
for hole carding anywhere. Can you? Where is illegal?
Not in Nevada. From 2010 article:

"It’s not illegal for a player, who sees a hole card as a result of a sloppy dealer, to use this information to his advantage. The player, in fact, may even signal another player at the table what the hole card is that he saw.

If you don’t believe me that seeing a dealer hole card is totally legal, you can check the Supreme Court case of Einbinder/Dalben. If you still are not sure that this advantage play has been ruled totally legal, go to Google.com and search for "Einbinder/Dalben," and you will see that the Supreme Court ruled that what they were doing with this available information was well within their rights.

The casinos would like the unsuspecting general public to believe that card counting, shuffle tracking, and hole carding are illegal actions, when just the opposite is true."

Article
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Face
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October 21st, 2011 at 4:33:59 PM permalink
No, EB, I'm not saying legal or illegal, happened or didn't happen. I don't know either way, just trying to figure out for sure.
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DJTeddyBear
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October 21st, 2011 at 4:50:46 PM permalink
Face -

Thanks for the reply to my tribal authority question. But it begs another question.

If the tribe holds criminal offenders for the state to take and arrest, much like security guards do in other situations, why doesn't the state oversee the operations of the casino? Surely there is the potential for criminal shenanigans going on in the back rooms, and the possibility of running a crooked game, which sounds like criminal activity to me.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
EvenBob
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October 21st, 2011 at 5:04:58 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

If the tribe holds criminal offenders for the state to take and arrest, much like security guards do in other situations, why doesn't the state oversee the operations of the casino?



Thats all the tribal police are, glorified security guards. You see them in their
tribal police cars in the parking lots. They can give out tickets, but I don't think
it has anything to do with the state.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Face
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October 21st, 2011 at 5:38:45 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Face -

Thanks for the reply to my tribal authority question. But it begs another question.

If the tribe holds criminal offenders for the state to take and arrest, much like security guards do in other situations, why doesn't the state oversee the operations of the casino? Surely there is the potential for criminal shenanigans going on in the back rooms, and the possibility of running a crooked game, which sounds like criminal activity to me.



Np, DJ, glad to (try to) help ;)

For this question, the State absolutely oversees operations, they are just not the lone, primary overseer. In our case, both the Tribe and the State have an authoritative presence in the casino (SGA and SGO) and they both perform the same duties - to ensure fair gaming, ensure the State/Nation compact is followed, to handle patron disputes, among other things. The Tribe side of things would be considered the primary overseer, as it is their operation, their responsibility. But the notion that the Tribe goes it alone renegade style is preposterous (at least here, I know little of MI, OK, WA operations). And in direct criminal activity, we have either County Sheriffs or State Police on site, depending on location.

The SGA (Seneca Gaming Authority) and SGO (State Gaming Officials) are basically the same thing (our version of the NGC) but representing different sides. Each has full access to all areas of the casino, all have access to ALL documents and reports generated within (with the exception of HR personal stuff like medical), we undergo auditing from an independant auditor, etc and so on. This is why I get kind of defensive when the "tribal scammers" issue comes up. I can't see how and would like to see proof. From my perspective, in order to, I dunno, rig a machine to totally screw patrons, you'd need our slot tech's (usually non-native Nation employees) to rig them under the watch of SGA (usually native Nation employees) and the SGO (100% non-native State employees), get it past our auditors (non-native Nation employees) and independant auditing (non-native private employees). How, exactly, would you get 100+ people to go along with this, keep it a secret, and risk their careers for no personal benefit whatsoever? It just doesn't add up. Could a slot tech catch a grudge and bunk up a machine? Sure, same as anywhere, but it would be caught and fixed and he'd be sacked, same as anywhere.

If your idea of "crooked" means 98% payback JoB instead of 101%, then maybe we could be considered crooked ;). But I take "crooked" as meaning stacked decks, slot paybacks under casino standards, weighted wheels, crooked dice, etc.
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teddys
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October 21st, 2011 at 5:49:35 PM permalink
Count me as one who would like to more about how the law works on Indian reservations. As I wrote in my trip blog, I got a speeding ticket on one of the reservations in Arizona in a speed trap. The odd thing was, it was an entirely state matter handled by the state courts. The only difference was that the cop was tribal. Now, why would he be enforcing Arizona law? They won't see a penny of that fine. The ironic thing is that I was driving to their casino, where I dropped way more than the actual amount of the fine :)
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Face
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October 21st, 2011 at 6:05:01 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

Count me as one who would like to more about how the law works on Indian reservations. As I wrote in my trip blog, I got a speeding ticket on one of the reservations in Arizona in a speed trap. The odd thing was, it was an entirely state matter handled by the state courts. The only difference was that the cop was tribal. Now, why would he be enforcing Arizona law? They won't see a penny of that fine. The ironic thing is that I was driving to their casino, where I dropped way more than the actual amount of the fine :)



Wait, so you were stopped by a TRIBAL cop, got an actual ticket, and had to appear in a STATE court?

That is beyond me. Our Marshals don't issue tickets even in their jurisdiction, they only hold you for the Town/County/State boys.

I do know civil services here (both "police" and EMT) work together, so if there's an emergency or tragedy, both will respond despite where it happens geographically. But our Marshals don't write traffic tickets, regardless of where it happens. Perhaps AZ's cooperation extends further, into traffic and such.

If you went to court (?) and it was State court, I'd highly suggest you take care of it. State boys usually don't play around. I'd be interested if you'd follow up on this, and good luck on whatever you choose.
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teddys
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October 21st, 2011 at 6:12:20 PM permalink
Quote: Face

If you went to court (?) and it was State court, I'd highly suggest you take care of it. State boys usually don't play around. I'd be interested if you'd follow up on this, and good luck on whatever you choose.

They didn't play around. I got a notice that my license had been suspended in Arizona, and that they would notify my home state's licensing authority under the Interstate Vehicle Compact. I sent them a check for $185 and wrote "for full payment" and the citation number on it, and they cashed it, so we're good ... I hope.

To be honest, if it was a tribal court matter, I would have ignored it. Of course, speed trap tickets are never fun.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Face
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October 21st, 2011 at 6:24:10 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

They didn't play around. I got a notice that my license had been suspended in Arizona, and that they would notify my home state's licensing authority under the Interstate Vehicle Compact. I sent them a check for $185 and wrote "for full payment" and the citation number on it, and they cashed it, so we're good ... I hope.

To be honest, if it was a tribal court matter, I would have ignored it. Of course, speed trap tickets are never fun.



HA! I mean,... not to take pleasure in your misfortune... but that just struck me as funny. No disrespect intended ;)

Yeah, I tend to take tribal less serious, too. Helps that I know/knew most of them pretty well, so every run in I had with them, whether for speeding or intox related, turned into shooting the breeze for awhile before they sent me on my way and told me to "cool it". I just wouldn't go totally EvenBob and view them as "only security guards" and disregard an order. I've known people who ran from them because they felt they had "diplomatic immunity" or some nonsense. Whether you do or you don't, they have a professional relationship with the State boys and the State boys don't play ;)

Edit: Also, after rereading your earlier post - they probably issue tickets for what a ticket SHOULD be, curbing dangerous behavior. I took me a second because I too am conditioned to look at speeding tickets as a money grab. They probably do it to genuinely protect the area. The Tribal Leaders, for the most part, are very strong on trying to protect their youth. Think about the culture; in mine I have but 7,500 surviving members (approx). A loss of life here has a much greater impact than others. Since the tribe can't issue tickets themselves, I could see them extending a hand to the State in an agreement (we save our people, you get fine money). It's still weird to me that the tribal officer was the issuing officer, but this may explain the "why".
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marksolberg
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October 21st, 2011 at 6:47:18 PM permalink
I'm not a lawyer, expert or guest of a Holiday Inn Express.

Tribes have criminal and civil jurisdiction over Indians on Tribal land. They only have civil jurisdiction over non-Natives. Indians include both members of that Tribe and members of any other federally recognized Tribes. If a non-Native commits a crime on Tribal land it must be federally prosecuted by a federal US Attorney. All federal laws apply on Tribal land for both native and non-native people. This includes gaming crimes. We have had several instances of gaming crime committed where their was federal prosecution. For crimes that don't rise to a level that a US Attorney chooses to prosecute the Tribe can still charge? a non-native civilly and impose a monetary fine or judgment against them.

Tribal police and local and state law enforcement often work together to handle situation because of jurisdiction issues. Their is often cross deputization of officers between agencies to help accommodate enforcement.

Tribal land does not fall under State laws, that's how the casino's started in the first place. Tribes may implement their own laws by enacting a Tribal code. In addition all Tribal land is subject to all Federal laws.

Mark
marksolberg
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October 21st, 2011 at 6:56:16 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

the incident is 100% true. i know who the 2 were and what they were doing and its completely legal. just because its not online, doesnt make it false. these were 2 high roller AP's that would rather stay anonymous then go public and never play again.



No. I'm not going to accept that. Are they members of a federally recognized Tribe? What penalties were imposed upon them? Why do you assume what they were doing was legal? Just because something is legal in Nevada doesn't mean it's legal on Tribal land in Michigan. That Tribe publishes it's gaming act, you can find it if you care to look. It addresses "cheating" for lack of a better term.

Mark
7outlineaway
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October 21st, 2011 at 7:04:07 PM permalink
The one tribal speeding ticket I've received, I paid (wasn't too expensive) and never heard about again.

I have to believe that if the tribal officer calls the state police in to assist in an arrest, the tribal officer must show up in court as a witness, otherwise you get a dismissal. This involves travel to the county seat among other expenses for the tribe. So it's probably pretty rare for petty offenses.

My first suggestion is let the cop know you're there to gamble; this has gotten me out of at least one ticket. My second suggestion is to live in a state that doesn't count out-of-state tickets (there are quite a few of them).
marksolberg
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October 21st, 2011 at 7:04:26 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Specifically, my question was what about things for which there IS no law? All of the above examples are clearly illegal in NY, so it makes sense that NYS would carry out the charging and convicting. But if I palm in an Ace or two bought at the gift shop, what would/could happen to me? Pretty sure that's jail time in LV, but they have a State Law stating such. If there is no law.....?


There probably is a law. Tribes enact both criminal and gaming ordinances just like states do. If something isn't covered by Tribal law it still falls under federal law. Realistically if you palm an ace or two you may be barred, you might be held by Tribal police while waiting for a federal agent to arrive and investigate. While the Tribal court and law enforcement don't have jurisdiction of the individual, the Tribal law would still apply. The same as if I go to Nevada, I'm not exempt from Nevada laws because I'm from Michigan.

Mark
Face
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October 21st, 2011 at 7:11:22 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

There probably is a law. Tribes enact both criminal and gaming ordinances just like states do. If something isn't covered by Tribal law it still falls under federal law. Realistically if you palm an ace or two you may be barred, you might be held by Tribal police while waiting for a federal agent to arrive and investigate. While the Tribal court and law enforcement don't have jurisdiction of the individual, the Tribal law would still apply. The same as if I go to Nevada, I'm not exempt from Nevada laws because I'm from Michigan.

Mark



Oh. I thought, in a previous conversation someone declared gaming laws weren't Federal but rather State.

I also thought I remember NYS not having any gaming laws.

So it just made me think - If the law was only Tribal, and the Tribe has no criminal court or jails, what would be the deterrent other than maybe a civil case and/or a fine...
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marksolberg
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October 21st, 2011 at 7:15:15 PM permalink
Quote: Face
So it just made me think - If the law was only Tribal, and the Tribe has no criminal court or jails, what would be the deterrent other than maybe a civil case and/or a fine...[/q


Tribes may not have a jail but they probably have a contract or arrangement with a local law enforcement agency that does. I know the Tribe I work for does.

Mark

Face
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October 21st, 2011 at 7:24:30 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

Tribes may not have a jail but they probably have a contract or arrangement with a local law enforcement agency that does. I know the Tribe I work for does.

Mark



Indeed we do have cooperation in law enforcement.... I guess I just didn't see it working in that fashion i.e. Tribe makes law and NYS follows it. Just for discussion's sake, what if NYS residents didn't want their tax dollars used in this fashion? Who makes the decision on behalf of NYS to enforce and participate in Tribal law?

In this case since they both have a vested interest it makes sense, but it makes one wonder...
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marksolberg
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October 21st, 2011 at 7:49:35 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Indeed we do have cooperation in law enforcement.... I guess I just didn't see it working in that fashion i.e. Tribe makes law and NYS follows it. Just for discussion's sake, what if NYS residents didn't want their tax dollars used in this fashion? Who makes the decision on behalf of NYS to enforce and participate in Tribal law?

In this case since they both have a vested interest it makes sense, but it makes one wonder...



Face,
It appears this law enforcement arrangement was agreed upon between the State and the various Tribes in New York. As part of the compact (at least the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe) the Tribe bears all costs for the employees, expenses and equipment necessary to provide this oversight.

Mark
SanchoPanza
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October 21st, 2011 at 8:02:11 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

All Tribal Gaming operations are audited by a an independent firm of certified public accountants annually.


Which firm and where are the reports available (even under FOIA)?
SanchoPanza
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October 21st, 2011 at 8:04:42 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

That Tribe publishes it's gaming act, you can find it if you care to look. It addresses "cheating" for lack of a better term.


So it isn't readily available, even on request. That is notable.
marksolberg
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October 21st, 2011 at 8:06:38 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

So it isn't readily available, even on request. That is notable.



I meant it is published online and is readily available. Took about 45 seconds to find.

http://www.pokagonband-nsn.gov/Gaming_Codes_and_Ordinances.aspx
marksolberg
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October 21st, 2011 at 8:19:33 PM permalink
It isn't one firm, it's any qualified firm of certified public accountants. The reports are required to be submitted annually to the National Indian Gaming Commission. It appears you can make an FOIA request there.

Mark
DJTeddyBear
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October 21st, 2011 at 8:42:07 PM permalink
Wow. My questions really stirred up a lot of interest on the criminal side!

Quote: Face

Np, DJ, glad to (try to) help ;)

For this question, the State absolutely oversees operations, they are just not the lone, primary overseer. In our case, both the Tribe and the State have an authoritative presence in the casino (SGA and SGO) and they both perform the same duties - to ensure fair gaming, .... , etc.

But the notion that the Tribe goes it alone renegade style is preposterous.

Thanks. This is really where I was heading.

So many of these posts about Indian casinos paint the casinos as the Big Bad Injuns, with nobody that they need to answer to. I knew there was a non-Indian gaming authority involved.

Thanks for clearing it up.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
ncfatcat
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October 22nd, 2011 at 9:01:53 AM permalink
Quote: 7outlineaway

My second suggestion is to live in a state that doesn't count out-of-state tickets (there are quite a few of them).



In North Carolina < 11 MPH over the limit in another State does not go against your record.
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
SanchoPanza
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October 22nd, 2011 at 7:48:01 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

It isn't one firm, it's any qualified firm of certified public accountants. The reports are required to be submitted annually to the National Indian Gaming Commission. It appears you can make an FOIA request there.


Requests have been made over the years, but appear to have yielded no results.
SanchoPanza
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October 22nd, 2011 at 7:51:43 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

I meant it is published online and is readily available. Took about 45 seconds to find.


And quite a bit longer to go through the 29 pages. In the relevant Section XII, as well as other sections, the requirement is for the tribe's gambling to report a yearly audit to "the Band," the top tribal body.
marksolberg
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October 22nd, 2011 at 9:25:51 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

And quite a bit longer to go through the 29 pages. In the relevant Section XII, as well as other sections, the requirement is for the tribe's gambling to report a yearly audit to "the Band," the top tribal body.


The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act requires the submission of an annual audit to the national Indian gaming commission.

Mark
SanchoPanza
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October 23rd, 2011 at 9:52:42 AM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act requires the submission of an annual audit to the national Indian gaming commission.


Which keeps them classified and secret, probably because they involve national security:
"Where is state-specific information on casino profits located?
The NIGC does not make tribal-specific or state-specific confidential financial information available to the public." nigc
marksolberg
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October 23rd, 2011 at 10:11:29 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Which keeps them classified and secret, probably because they involve national security:
"Where is state-specific information on casino profits located?
The NIGC does not make tribal-specific or state-specific confidential financial information available to the public." nigc


I do not know the answer to this question. Where can I get the financial information for Nevada casinos?

Mark
SanchoPanza
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October 23rd, 2011 at 1:43:13 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

Where can I get the financial information for Nevada casinos?


The publicly held corporations issue annual reports. For the others, I rely on the sources that Paco Martin and others frequently cite here.
marksolberg
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October 23rd, 2011 at 3:43:38 PM permalink
Many tribal casinos have a revenue sharing agreement with states. In Michigan all casinos must pay the state 2% of gross slot revenue to local units of government. You can figure out at least gross slot revenue from these. The contributions are posted on the Michigan.gov website.

Mark
ShiftyRicky
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February 28th, 2012 at 5:14:38 PM permalink
Quote: fulkgl

"Rip-off-odds" Indian casinos are the entire state of Oklahoma. All table games require a "self funding" tax on each bet. For instance, a $5 BJ table requires a 25 cent payment before each hand. As the bet size goes up, so does the "self funding" tax. The percentage is so high that it's impossible to win in the long run in any table game in a Oklahoma casino. You can win in short sessions (variance), but long sessions will not be winnable. q]

I know this is a reply to an old post...but...i couldn't help it. As far as the "Rip off odds" thing goes, most casinos offer some type of promotion for the ante, be it certain times there is free ante or no ante at all. The ante is the tribes make money. Each tribe has to pay the state a stupid amount in taxes; each tribe also pay its members in some form, from the casino; each tribe also helps give MILLIONS to state education.

I would like to invite you to my Casino, Buffalo Run Casino and Resort in Miami, Ok. Yes, we have an ANTE...we also have promos for BJ players; Sun-Thurs 12am-4pm NO ANTE with a players club card...we also offer NO ANTE on all bets of $20 or more with a players club card....all of our top tier players are given NO ANTE ALWAYS. Our ANTE does not increase with your bet..$2=$.50...$5000= $.50 (if your not smart enough or unwilling to get a players club card). We offer very player friendly rules on all BJ Games.

There are a few Casinos in this area that offer NO ANTE ALL THE TIME, this casinos use your points earned on your players club card for your ante. This is popular, but this kills you chances at some of the nicer comps.

My casino answers to the NGIC and our Gaming Commision. Remember, these Casinos are business's and run as a legit Casino. People who think they are getting cheated at a casino (that is bigger than someones basement) are silly, why would we cheat..the games have a fixed HA already...sounds like that would be bad for business. We have to follow all Title 31 laws just like Vegas.

"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"
Jay
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February 29th, 2012 at 4:30:54 PM permalink
California is the same way. The big operators subsidize the smaller casinos (less than 350 machines) and the tribes with no casinos at all.
FleaStiff
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February 29th, 2012 at 4:35:42 PM permalink
Nevada does release information except that which would be easily linked to a specific licensee and therefore can't be easily masked by grouping the various casinos.
SanchoPanza
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February 29th, 2012 at 6:37:34 PM permalink
Quote: marksolberg

Many tribal casinos have a revenue sharing agreement with states. In Michigan all casinos must pay the state 2% of gross slot revenue to local units of government. You can figure out at least gross slot revenue from these. The contributions are posted on the Michigan.gov website.


How does Michigan know that it is receiving the correct sum? Does it audit or hire an independent outside auditor to go over the tribe's books?
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