Oklahoma Indian Casinos

Hello all, new here. I've read WoO regularly, but just recently found that there is a forum for this type of discussion. Good stuff!

Anyway, I'm going to dive right in and make my first post about something that I find odd or deceiving.

First a little background: Here in OK, we have many very large tribal casinos that are built, owned, and operated by individual tribes. These casinos came about due to the IGRA of 1987, and also due to the State of OK recognizing tribal land as a sovereign nation. Each tribe has full discretion in offering various types of gaming that do not involve dice or roulette wheels, so most places have slots, video poker, blackjack, hold'em, baccarat, and various others. (actually one casino has managed to offer craps and roulette using cards) The only caveat, of course, is that they are restricted to offering only Class II gaming if they wish to be the sole manager of such activity and not pay state taxes. From what I understand in my research, a few tribes now have gaming compacts with the State of OK for Class III gaming.

After having read through the Wizard of Odds excellent articles, I realized that none of the Indian casinos in OK have published payback rates on their slot machines (or any other useful statistic for gamblers). This led me to do research to find out if any governing body, such as a gaming control board, exists to monitor the gaming offerings as an independent 3rd party. Unfortunately, it seems like this is not in place.

The only note I can find that possibly relates to this would be for the OK State Finance office that monitors and carries out provisions of tribal compacts (basically, make sure taxes from Class III gaming are collected).

--
"Who regulates Indian Gaming?

Indian tribes are the primary regulators of Class II gaming. Regulation of Class III gaming may be addressed in Tribal-State compacts and varies by state with tribes remaining the primary regulator in most states. In Oklahoma, the tribes are the primary regulators of both Class II and Class III gaming. Both Class II and Class III gaming are subject to the provisions of the IGRA and oversight by the NIGC."
--

So, seeing as how the tribes are not willing to publish payback statistics, and the State of OK most likely does not want to rattle that cage, is it pretty much a "crap shoot" to gamble at these casinos?

I'm not much of a gambler, since the most I do is around $40/mo on slots or video poker, but a lot of the findings of WoO's site just aren't holding air when I try them out. I'm somewhat afraid that these tribes could be milking everyone with a really large house edge and sub 75% payback rates on slots.

My intention is not to be some sort of conspiracy theorist about the tribes rigging slot machines, but I'm curious if anyone here would willingly play at a casino where the terms of operation are basically kept secret. I assume there will always be a minimum level of payback since they offer a lot of IGT/WMS machines, but it could be bad enough that we're all better off saving for a trip to Vegas where the gaming is regulated by a state commission.

You are being quite sensible.
I would not play in an Indian casino if I had any other option at all.
I would not play in an Oklahoma casino unless I literally had no other choice at all. If I was forced to play in an Oklahoma casino, I would NEVER play so much as one cent in their slot machines.

Any sort of Oversight Body has to either be an effective one or it is useless. In Oklahoma, you are dealing with a "Rubber Stamp". In most Indian casinos, that is the situation: the regulating body has no independence from the tribe.

Your situation in Oklahoma is to assume that the various electronic chips inside the slot machine are set to the cheapest payout that would be legal in Nevada. After all, they probably got the machine from Nevada and ain't no computer chip manufacturing company going to design and manufacture any computer chips that don't meet Nevada standards since Nevada is their major market. This is a reasonable assumption, but some machines can be imported from abroad too.

So quite frankly, if you are really concerned about KNOWING you are getting a "fair shake" ... don't gamble in an Indian casino and certainly not an Indian casino in Oklahoma. If you are comfortable with a mere assumption that is fairly reasonable, then play in an Indian casino but NOT a slot machine there!

Dispute resolution? Its Indian tribal police, Indian tribal jail, Indian tribal lawyers, Indian tribal judge. Its also an Indian tribal gaming authority, but with different letterhead and an extra step of rigamarole before they use that rubber stamp.

There is one man who lives in Texas, drives to Oklahoma to work as a dealer in an Indian casino. He does his gambling in Texas or Nevada, but not one cent in Oklahoma. I think he has the right idea.

They don't "rig" the slot machines. They don't have to as they aren't stating any specific pay back. Since they aren't held to any standard, they can't cheat by rigging the machines to pay less than anything stated.

I was disgusted at the Oklahoma casinos when I finally saw that not only were they taking a healthy rake at the poker tables, they were also taking the small blind on every hand. WTF? Seriously? For those readers at home shaking their heads, be it known that they all so charge .50 cents to play every hand of blackjack, regardless of denomination. I've seen people playing $5/hand, plopping down that 10% .50 fee on every hand. I don't need for The Wizard to tell me those people are dumb asses!

Barona does the "manufacturer's best payback" promotion, and they are an Indian casino. The manufacturer would not risk their reputation to certify a slot machine as such. Of course, not all machines are thus certified, but they are in an especially competitive market and I find it hard to believe that they would get that much business if their take was higher than average. http://www.barona.com/casino/gaming/hot-in-slots/

Also, video poker with a Game King or other similar machine at any Class III casino also should be honest takes. If you see genies or anything else, stay away, but I think the California Indian casino video poker are definitely honest.

Quote: BigTip

I was disgusted at the Oklahoma casinos when I finally saw that not only were they taking a healthy rake at the poker tables, they were also taking the small blind on every hand. WTF? Seriously? For those readers at home shaking their heads, be it known that they all so charge .50 cents to play every hand of blackjack, regardless of denomination. I've seen people playing $5/hand, plopping down that 10% .50 fee on every hand. I don't need for The Wizard to tell me those people are dumb asses!

Apparently this is an Oklahoma law; the Indian casinos have to pay the state that much each hand because of something to do with casino-banked table games such as blackjack or some nonsense. Anyway, at the one Oklahoma casino I've been to, Downstream, if you had a player's card the casino payed the fee themselves.

Again, a little odd, but whatever. They also had one "card craps" table, which I didn't get to try because it was closed for the night. That looked a little odd too.

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with the proposition that you shouldn't prefer to play at Indian casinos. For example, Barona, which somebody brought up, has some of the best rules for gamblers on their Blackjack and Video Poker games. The Indian casino in Mississippi is preferable atmosphere-wise and probably gambling wise to the Tunica and Gulf Shore joints. Four Winds and Soaring Eagle in Michigan are nicer than the Detroit and Northern Indiana casinos and the gambling is about the same.

I went to Winstar once and the scene was so depressing I never went back. The facilities themselves were okay, I guess. It's a shame since I'm only an hour away, but the next time I do non-Vegas gambling it will be in Louisiana.

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I couldn't quantify it but the OK casinos always felt squirrelly. As a Dallas guy, it's the closest option, and I still go up there for concerts every now and then. But yeah, if I really feel like gambling, it's Shreveport (3.5 hours), Tunica, or New Orleans/Biloxi (flying). I have more free flights on Southwest than I'll ever use and the casino usually picks up my room.

For some reason I just now found this thread while trying to find info on Oklahoma casinos.

Interestingly, the OP never made another post or ever returned to this site [at least while signed in] after the day he started the thread, never replying even. Sometimes I wonder if people think their thread disappeared and get bummed. Or maybe he has given up on gambling since he "never wins" LOL

My main focus on what seems to be hard to find out, revolves around the Class II/III business. If there is an indication of some sort on the screen that the game is "actually bingo" by other-than-tiny text , an easily seen bingo card image, or an immediately appearing Genie, I'll be 'good'. If it is harder than that, I could use some help.

Is this a reasonable conclusion? You check out a video poker machine and there are paytables. I'm thinking they can't post those if they are just baloney. So seeing paytables means it must be class III?

Quote: odiousgambit

Is this a reasonable conclusion? You check out a video poker machine and there are paytables. I'm thinking they can't post those if they are just baloney. So seeing paytables means it must be class III?

Don't assume that it's Class III just because there are paytables.

1. Look at the sign on the outside of the front door. Does it say that it's a Class II gaming facility? That's a really good clue that it's Class II inside.
2. Are there table games? That's a really good sign that it might not be all Class II.
3. Does the "Play" button say "Play / Daub", or just "Play"? (Daub is a bingo term.)
4. Do you have to double-hit the Play / Daub button? (That's almost certainly Class II, especially when you see the "You daubed in time!" message.)

So, why not assume it's Class III when there are paytables:
That's part of the entertainment portion of the game. There are paytables on the "slots" too, and the prizes awarded do match up with those patterns "hitting", but those patterns only hit to display the value of the bingo win.

In my experience, there's a second, "real" paytable - the bingo paytable - available on bingo machines. It's usually buried in the menu.

At least up here (not in OK), where some places are Class II, some are Class III, and some are both, we get a bit of a hint in that Class II seems to be allowed for 18+, and Class III seems to be 21+. There are "You must be 18+ to play" stickers on the Class II machines, and "You must be 21+ to play" stickers on the Class III machines, and yes indeed I have seen them right next to each other.

The greatest annoyance I've seen is Class II video keno. Yes, you can pick your numbers, but they won't hit unless the bingo card lands a certain pattern.

Flipside: I find Class II slots somewhat more entertaining than Class III. You might try a few bucks for amusement purposes only.

I should add - in my experience, manufacturers seem to try and hide* the bingo card on the "video poker" and "video keno" machines.

Look at the slots. Those seem to be much more obvious. If they're running Class II slots, with the bingo card, play/daub button, etc... assume that the "video poker" will be Class II.



*I mean "minimize the aesthetic impact in the overall game design", of course.

Thanks

just ran across something that said a video poker machine with paytables can automatically 'drop a coin' - part of what you bet - as a fee -

sheesh

no doubt I'll call ahead at some point. Dreading getting the know-nothing who will answer the phone. Probably should dedicate a couple of hours to that phone call, to wait for someone who can answer the question LOL

A hint that the whole place is Class II.

Quote: odiousgambit

I'll call ahead at some point. Dreading getting the know-nothing who will answer the phone.

That is actually something that has impressed me. Most of the people at the local Class II place seem to be very well versed on Class II vs Class III.

I wouldn't expect the call to take more than 6 minutes. 1 minute to get to someone initially (stupid IVR's..), then if they can't answer, maybe another 4 minutes waiting for a manager.

Not sure which manager you should ask for, but a line of questioning like "Do you have video poker?" followed with "Is that Class II or Class III?" should get you there.

WinStar is definitely a mix of class II and class III. I can confirm that ALL the VP there is Class III.

And what is your class?

>>>what is your class?
I don't got no class and I don't got no couth.

Quote: FleaStiff

I would not play in an Indian casino if I had any other option at all.
I would not play in an Oklahoma casino unless I literally had no other choice at all. If I was forced to play in an Oklahoma casino, I would NEVER play so much as one cent in their slot machines.

There is one man who lives in Texas, drives to Oklahoma to work as a dealer in an Indian casino. He does his gambling in Texas or Nevada, but not one cent in Oklahoma. I think he has the right idea.

I still stand by those sentiments. Instead of gambling in Oklahoma, save up for a trip to Vegas and get some known and decent bang for your buck.

If a class II slot/VP/keno is set for 85% and a class III slot/VP/keno is set to 85% I don't really see the difference.

If you are an AP and the casino is running a promotion (let's say double on Royals) that might be a problem figuring out what the cycle is on a class II VP.

Various casinos in Oklahoma has had some good promotions and they seem to comp about the same as most other casinos.

If a class II slot/VP/keno is set for 85% and a class III slot/VP/keno is set to 85% I don't really see the difference.

If you are an AP and the casino is running a promotion (let's say double on Royals) that might be a problem figuring out what the cycle is on a class II VP.

Various casinos in Oklahoma has had some good promotions and they seem to comp about the same as most other casinos.

Follow the money, wherever that may be.

Oklahoma's tribal casinos will soon have Craps and Roulette games that use the customary equipment rather than electronic cards.

However, the casino will not be permitted to bank these games.

https://www.casino.org/news/oklahoma-oks-ball-and-dice-games-but-no-dice-for-sports-betting

What is the difference from craps bill passed whwre bets go into a "players pool" and those in vegas for example

Quote: troopscott

What is the difference from craps bill passed whwre bets go into a "players pool" and those in vegas for example

I'm not sure. In Vegas the House banks ALL bets. So if you bet "Do" or "Don't" the House covers the bets. No betting is between the players as it might be in Street Craps.

At least it will close to "real" craps and "real" roulette.

God, I hope we get Pai Gow Tiles someday...

It's odd we don't have sports betting but betting on horses has been okay for years.

Quote: TigerWu

It's odd we don't have sports betting but betting on horses has been okay for years.

Easier to test a horse's urine.

How soon will it be before players can play live wheels or craps?

How does a player pool payout when compared to the traditional game where the house pays?

I'm curious to know how this works too.

Rest assured, they will still make their money through the 50 cent ante bet.

I found this article about California card rooms. Apparently there are third-party bankers that come in and act as the permanent bank. In effect they are "professional players" hired by the house. That way they have a bank covering all bets, but they also get around the rule that says only players can bank.

Sounds like a sweet gig if you have the money. Maybe it will work that way here in Oklahoma, too.

Being a member of the banking syndicate beats owning the California card rooms.
The employee is often an actor since they like the hours and can go on auditions if they need to during the day.

Oklahoma? Who knows yet.

Being a member of the banking syndicate beats owning the California card rooms.
The employee is often an actor since they like the hours and can go on auditions if they need to during the day.

Oklahoma? Who knows yet.