$3 million win at Taj Mahal
Damn, I wish I could say it was me but I was just a witness. The winner was already ushered to fill out whatever.
Security had the machine surrounded insisting people not take photos. The machine was already powered down with its wheels dark and silently spinning. The jackpot hand-pay was still there. It was over $3 million.
It's reset today to half a mil.
I know it says jackpot hand-pay but would they really do a hand-pay of $3mil? Shouldn't it really read jackpot check-pay?
Anyway, not sure if Taj is on the hook. If they are this comes at a bad time when they are facing financial problems. I read an article (its in the "Man with the $100,000 Breasts") that big long-shot pays like this are insured so not sure in this case who is on the spot.
Quote: darkozAnyway, not sure if Taj is on the hook.
They're not. My understanding is IGT holds onto the jackpot money and they ultimately are the ones to pay it.
Quote: WizardThey're not. My understanding is IGT holds onto the jackpot money and they ultimately are the ones to pay it.
I believe WOF is paid out over 25 equal annual installments. One of the companies I worked for used to buy a 20 year annuity from a large financial firm the next business day after the hit. That way we no longer had any involvement or liability on our books.
Quote: DRichI believe WOF is paid out over 25 equal annual installments. One of the companies I worked for used to buy a 20 year annuity from a large financial firm the next business day after the hit. That way we no longer had any involvement or liability on our books.
Interesting. Let's say the large financial firm changed 60% of the face value. Then, suppose the player said he would agree to a lump sum of 55%. Would it be breaking any rules to just give the player the 55%?
Quote: WizardThey're not. My understanding is IGT holds onto the jackpot money and they ultimately are the ones to pay it.
Pretty sure paid as an annuity over 20 or 25 years. Don't know if there is a lesser amount lump sum option.
If not I would be hiring a lawyer to get my money NOW!!!
The amount has already been collected off of million and millions of bets placed pay the person ...$120,000 twenty years from now might be enough to go on a nice vaction
Quote: coilmanIs that disclosed somewhere on the machine that you do not get the amount TODAY?
I'm pretty sure it is in very fine print somewhere.
Quote: WizardI'm pretty sure it is in very fine print somewhere.
It most certainly is, on the screen in very small print.
I'm across the street from Taj. I will take a look at the machine and see if there is anything anywhere and ask someone if I don't see anything written.
I have never seen the 5 dollar over about 2.5mil. And, the 1 and .50 are usually less (I have no clue what the logic is, but I always notice the .50 has a significantly higher payout for progressive than the 1).
But, I have not noticed a WOF machine over 5 in Taj or anywhere in AC. But, I don't really play slots so I can't claim to have looked too closely. But, I do enjoy WOF, so I'll occasionally play the 1 or 5 denom. for fun.
I guess the progressives are based on play frequency, so that makes sense why the lower denoms are often a bigger progressive? I guess I answered my own question.
If you are familiar with Taj, the first floor security booth to the your left (if you are facing the booth) is a mens bathroom. Against the wall are some WOF. It was the machine closest to the mens room. Opposite the WOF are a bank of multi-play blackjack video games (you know where you play seven hands simultaneously against the dealer.
Quote: GWAEWhat I don't understand is why.
They can offer seemingly larger jackpots that way. They are essentially advertising the payments plus interest over the 20 years.
Quote: GWAEWhat are the odds that IGT will be around in 20 years to keep paying. What happens when they go bankrupt.
Irrelevant as asked. They purchase a guaranteed annuity from a financial organization on the next business day.
Quote: rsactuaryThey can offer seemingly larger jackpots that way. They are essentially advertising the payments plus interest over the 20 years.
Irrelevant as asked. They purchase a guaranteed annuity from a financial organization on the next business day.
I don't understand how that works. Say the jp was 3mil over 20 years. How much would it cost to have the company pay it ou?. I also take it that means igt no longer is responsible for it since they sold it. Am I right that they basically sell it? Let's assume worst case scenerio, igt goes bankrupt and the financial company ends up being a ponzi scheme and has no money in 10 years.
Quote: GWAEI have heard as well that it is over 20 years. What I don't understand is why. Like said above, they collect this money up front so no reason not to pay it out. What are the odds that IGT will be around in 20 years to keep paying. What happens when they go bankrupt.
They fund/buy an annuity at an insurance company or other financial institution that deals in those type of products in the name of the winner
Quote: GWAEI don't understand how that works. Say the jp was 3mil over 20 years. How much would it cost to have the company pay it ou?. I also take it that means igt no longer is responsible for it since they sold it. Am I right that they basically sell it? Let's assume worst case scenerio, igt goes bankrupt and the financial company ends up being a ponzi scheme and has no money in 10 years.
You need to understand the time value of money concept.
$3,000,000 paid out in equal installments over 20 years assuming a 4% interest rate has a present value of $2,038,500. IGT pays the insurance company that amount today and the insurance company handles the payments to the winner.
Quote: WizardInteresting. Let's say the large financial firm changed 60% of the face value. Then, suppose the player said he would agree to a lump sum of 55%. Would it be breaking any rules to just give the player the 55%?
I don't know if it would be against any gaming rules or not. There are plenty of companies that will buy the annuity from the player and pay a lump some. Of course they end up taking their cut too.
Quote: coilmanIs that disclosed somewhere on the machine that you do not get the amount TODAY?
Yes, it is always shown as a disclaimer that is usually on the slot glass. It may also be on a help screen somewhere.
Almost all of the progressives you see in the casino which have a jackpot over $250,000 or so are annuities. Generally they are linked progressives between all of the casinos in the state. The Indian casinos are allowed to link interstate while the state administered casinos are only intrastate.
Quote: wellwellwellYou need to understand the time value of money concept.
$3,000,000 paid out in equal installments over 20 years assuming a 4% interest rate has a present value of $2,038,500. IGT pays the insurance company that amount today and the insurance company handles the payments to the winner.
exactly. It's the same thing state lotteries do.
So to say it another way.... if you win $3M, IGT buys an annuity from a financial institution for $2.0385M. You get $150K each year, and the money left on deposit earns an interest. The sum of the upfront payment + interest credited to you will total $3M.
if IGT goes bankrupt, there is no impact as they are out of the equation as soon as they purchase the annuity in your name. As for the financial institution going bankrupt... well that can happen, but state insurance departments are around to do their best to make sure they don't. I'm sure there is a requirement that the financial institution they purchase the annuity from has a certain decent level of S&P rating, but I can't confirm that.
Quote: rsactuaryexactly. It's the same thing state lotteries do.
So to say it another way.... if you win $3M, IGT buys an annuity from a financial institution for $2.0385M. You get $150K each year, and the money left on deposit earns an interest. The sum of the upfront payment + interest credited to you will total $3M.
if IGT goes bankrupt, there is no impact as they are out of the equation as soon as they purchase the annuity in your name. As for the financial institution going bankrupt... well that can happen, but state insurance departments are around to do their best to make sure they don't. I'm sure there is a requirement that the financial institution they purchase the annuity from has a certain decent level of S&P rating, but I can't confirm that.
I get it now. So I guess theoretically they could buy the annuity for 2 mil and offer to settle with the winner for 1.75 and be done with the transaction. I think that was the question a few posts ago. I am surprised igt doesn't just offer this to the winner, or maybe they do?
OK so say I win this 3mil tonight. Do I actually get to leave the casino that night with any money?
Quote: GWAE
OK so say I win this 3mil tonight. Do I actually get to leave the casino that night with any money?
Yes, they give you a check for the first installment immediately upon verification.
Quote: GWAEI get it now. So I guess theoretically they could buy the annuity for 2 mil and offer to settle with the winner for 1.75 and be done with the transaction. I think that was the question a few posts ago. I am surprised igt doesn't just offer this to the winner, or maybe they do?
OK so say I win this 3mil tonight. Do I actually get to leave the casino that night with any money?
I have heard or read that IGT has to send out their settlement team to the site where the jackpot was won to verify and settle with winner. So if you win in an Indian outpost casino somewhere in Michigan you might wait a couple of days I guess.
They wouldn't need to buy the annuity if they were settling for $1.75 million with the winner. The deal would be done at that point and the future liability to the winner is gone.
Quote: wellwellwellI have heard or read that IGT has to send out their settlement team to the site where the jackpot was won to verify and settle with winner. So if you win in an Indian outpost casino somewhere in Michigan you might wait a couple of days I guess.
I've heard that jackpots must be verified by IGT too. Given the amounts involved, I think IGT would get a representative there within hours, even at a remote location. Seems to me that rinky-dink casinos usually don't have wide-area progressives to begin with.
Quote: WizardI've heard that jackpots must be verified by IGT too.
A forensic evaluation is done any time a big progressive hits. They pull the chips from the games and verify the hash to make sure the proper chip is in the game at the time of the hit. Then camera video is reviewed to make sure nothing suspicious happened prior to the hit. Lastly the computer logs are checked at the central site to look for anything out of the ordinary prior to the hit. If everything looks good the jackpot is approved and paid.
Quote: DRichA forensic evaluation is done any time a big progressive hits. They pull the chips from the games and verify the hash to make sure the proper chip is in the game at the time of the hit. Then camera video is reviewed to make sure nothing suspicious happened prior to the hit. Lastly the computer logs are checked at the central site to look for anything out of the ordinary prior to the hit. If everything looks good the jackpot is approved and paid.
Does IGT or whichever game manufacturer has the winning machine have their own employee(s) do all these procedures at the casino site or does the game manufacturer rely on the casino personnel and then just send the check and the annuity info to the winner?
Is it better to take a lump sum and invest, or enjoy the installments + interest? Assuming you invest with a financial planner of some sort who won't advise you to start opening a chain of sports bars or something.
How do taxes work? Can you just tell IGT or the casino to take out the taxes?
I've always been curious about big hits. I actually saw a WoF machine locked up when somebody hit it for $1.2 million I believe a year ago at a downtown casino. They roped off the bank of machines, and security stood around it while a tech was opening the machine.
Quote: wellwellwellDoes IGT or whichever game manufacturer has the winning machine have their own employee(s) do all these procedures at the casino site or does the game manufacturer rely on the casino personnel and then just send the check and the annuity info to the winner?
As far as I am aware the manufacturer/owner of the WAP or one of their contractors do the forensic evaluation and present the check to the customer.
Quote: djatcI'm not too knowledgeable on WAPs, what's the minimum amount they start to do installment payments instead of a lump sum? WoF seems to have a sticker on all machines indicating any jackpot payment will be all installments, no matter the amount.
Is it better to take a lump sum and invest, or enjoy the installments + interest? Assuming you invest with a financial planner of some sort who won't advise you to start opening a chain of sports bars or something.
How do taxes work? Can you just tell IGT or the casino to take out the taxes?
I've always been curious about big hits. I actually saw a WoF machine locked up when somebody hit it for $1.2 million I believe a year ago at a downtown casino. They roped off the bank of machines, and security stood around it while a tech was opening the machine.
I don't know if there is a stated minimum. I am guessing it is up to the company running the progressive. I know in the old days the $250,000 Quartermania was an annuity.
Contact a tax professional before making any big decisions when it comes to annuities and buyouts. Everybodies tax situations could be different. I assume you could ask the company to take out taxes but truthfully they wouldn't be able to know the proper amount to take out. It would just be a guess and you would settle up when you did your quarterly tax filing.
Quote: djatc
Is it better to take a lump sum and invest, or enjoy the installments + interest? Assuming you invest with a financial planner of some sort who won't advise you to start opening a chain of sports bars or something.
Always take lump sum if offered (and I hear in Vegas that is now an option... but it may not be elsewhere). If you take the annuity, t'you are locking in the interest rate you earn. It's probably low right now... 3-4% would be my guess. Take it an invest in the stock market and average 8%.
Quote: rsactuaryAlways take lump sum if offered (and I hear in Vegas that is now an option... but it may not be elsewhere). If you take the annuity, t'you are locking in the interest rate you earn. It's probably low right now... 3-4% would be my guess. Take it an invest in the stock market and average 8%.
Unless it has just recently changed, I don't think IGT offers a lump sum option.
Quote: rsactuaryAlways take lump sum if offered (and I hear in Vegas that is now an option... but it may not be elsewhere). If you take the annuity, t'you are locking in the interest rate you earn. It's probably low right now... 3-4% would be my guess. Take it an invest in the stock market and average 8%.
Unless it has just recently changed, I don't think IGT offers a lump sum option.
Quote: GWAEOK so say I win this 3mil tonight. Do I actually get to leave the casino that night with any money?
So let's say it's a 20 year annuity.
You would walk with approximately $3,000,000 * .75 / 20 = $112,500. (assuming a 25% tax pull).
And then you wouldn't get any more money for another year.
Kind of shocking to think you win $3M and get a check for $112,500! (yes obviously there are 19 more coming.. but still.....)
And this all assumes that the verification process happens quickly.
Quote: DRichUnless it has just recently changed, I don't think IGT offers a lump sum option.
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2014/mar/09/what-happens-when-you-win-jackpot/
Quote: rsactuaryhttp://lasvegassun.com/news/2014/mar/09/what-happens-when-you-win-jackpot/
That is for a Bally game. Maybe IGT is doing the same now but I haven't heard about it.
Could I insist on the full amount?
Why does the company offer annuity in the first place? They theoretically have the money right? (from collected stakes)
Quote: HeyMrDJAs someone from a tax treaty country, is there anything different if I win it?
Could I insist on the full amount?
Why does the company offer annuity in the first place? They theoretically have the money right? (from collected stakes)
I think it was mentioned earlier that it is like the lottery. They are advertising a high amount but haven't collected that amount yet. They are figuring the interest which would be earned in the next 20 years. Same way the lottery does it. It is a way for them to just advertise a much larger amount.
Hmm... I had heard (back in the days of higher interest rates) that taking the annuity would be better tax-wise if the lump sum bumps you into a significantly higher tax bracket. I wonder if the tax benefits of the annuity don't still outweigh an unfavorable interest rate.Quote: rsactuaryAlways take lump sum if offered (and I hear in Vegas that is now an option... but it may not be elsewhere). If you take the annuity, you are locking in the interest rate you earn. It's probably low right now... 3-4% would be my guess. Take it an invest in the stock market and average 8%.
You can't just take the giant check to a giant bank and cash it on the spot? ;)Quote: DJTeddyBearTo get slightly off topic, when they present the giant check and take your picture, the check is written out for the full amount.
Sarcasm noted, but seriously, no.Quote: JoemanYou can't just take the giant check to a giant bank and cash it on the spot? ;)
I have a friend that has one. Not quite giant, and only for about $25K. It's about 3 feet X 1 foot. Looks nice framed with the photo.
Not only does it lack the bank name and account info, under the signature line, it says "non-negotiable."
Quote: JoemanYou can't just take the giant check to a giant bank and cash it on the spot? ;)
I think for a check to be valid it just has to have the payee's name, bank name, and bank account number. If all this were on a cocktail napkin, or a giant poster, I think it would be a valid check. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote: WizardI think for a check to be valid it just has to have the payee's name, bank name, and bank account number. If all this were on a cocktail napkin, or a giant poster, I think it would be a valid check. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Must include the language "Pay to the Order of" before the payee name.
I remember as far back as the mid 70's that businesses would have blank counter check books for the various banks in town on their counters.
You could just grab a check book from your bank and write out the amount and sign the check, the business would deposit it, and the bank would honor it. No account numbers needed.
With all the electronic processing now you probably could still do the same but you wouldn't have many friends at the bank.
Quote: wellwellwellMust include the language "Pay to the Order of" before the payee name.
I remember as far back as the mid 70's that businesses would have blank counter check books for the various banks in town on their counters.
You could just grab a check book from your bank and write out the amount and sign the check, the business would deposit it, and the bank would honor it. No account numbers needed.
With all the electronic processing now you probably could still do the same but you wouldn't have many friends at the bank.
I think it would have to have the date and "legal amount" specified too. Basically, it is a contract on a small piece of paper.
To answer some of your questions, I spoke to a Taj manager who was familiar with the win (My machine malfunctioned claiming it had paid me when it didn't which took nearly an hour for them to verify so the manager and I started talking - I figured I would bring it up while I had him there.)
He said the $3 million was either a 20 year annuity or lump sum, whichever the winner preferred. The person was paid the amount of the first year annuity that very evening. They went home with a legit check (he specified it was not a giant promotional check) for $150,000 approx.
He said they had 30 days to negotiate with IGT for the remaining amount to be paid as either lump or annuity and Taj was not a part of that negotiation obviously. After 30 days, it would default to the annuity if no agreement was made.
He also said that jackpot had been accruing for five years before it finally hit.
Hope that helps.
I have actually seen a bar on Decatur with a megabucks. IIRC it was/is Alibi's or Alibaba or something that starts with an A.Quote: WizardI've heard that jackpots must be verified by IGT too. Given the amounts involved, I think IGT would get a representative there within hours, even at a remote location. Seems to me that rinky-dink casinos usually don't have wide-area progressives to begin with.
There is one teller (name withheld) at one branch (name withheld) of my giant mega-bank (name withheld) that WOULD probably cash that giant check, even in the frame. ;-)Quote: DJTeddyBearSarcasm noted, but seriously, no.
I have a friend that has one. Not quite giant, and only for about $25K. It's about 3 feet X 1 foot. Looks nice framed with the photo.
Not only does it lack the bank name and account info, under the signature line, it says "non-negotiable."
And I am NOT complimenting her on her professionalism or friendliness.
Quote: darkoz***UPDATE***
To answer some of your questions, I spoke to a Taj manager who was familiar with the win (My machine malfunctioned claiming it had paid me when it didn't which took nearly an hour for them to verify so the manager and I started talking - I figured I would bring it up while I had him there.)
He said the $3 million was either a 20 year annuity or lump sum, whichever the winner preferred. The person was paid the amount of the first year annuity that very evening. They went home with a legit check (he specified it was not a giant promotional check) for $150,000 approx.
He said they had 30 days to negotiate with IGT for the remaining amount to be paid as either lump or annuity and Taj was not a part of that negotiation obviously. After 30 days, it would default to the annuity if no agreement was made.
He also said that jackpot had been accruing for five years before it finally hit.
Hope that helps.
thanks for the info. I was actually wondering if you had to decide right there if you wanted lump sum or not. That would be a tough decision on the spot at 2am while drunk.
