Table Mountain Casino

Is it really gambling anymore when casinos has control of the card shuffling machines? Especially for card games like Pai Gow. I don't really know if thats just the way the shuffle machine operates or if the casino is breaking some kind of gaming law. Its like this: I am playing 2 hands on the pai gow table. One of the hands is automatically house way, faced down not seen. Without even flipping the cards over ,even for the "cameras" to see, the dealer pushes this button and the screen reveals exactly what the 2 top cards of the hand are and how it should be played house way. All the while the cards are still faced down. So I asked the dealer "how is it, that without flipping the cards over to reveal them first, the computer screen already know what the hand is??? Then all of a sudden the lady dealer doesn't speak english anymore. F#$%ing ironic!!! She starts mumbling jibberish then deals the same way again..... So i am guessing the the shuffle machine already knows the value of each hand and deals them first according to the "random digital number" and NOT using dices. After a couple of good hands for me the dealer was unbeatable and cleaned me out. No wonder the table was empty when i got there. So i know for a fact that all seven hands has already been sorted and revealed to machine before picking the right digital number so that the biggest hand will land on the dealer and the s&*( to the player. Luck my %^&!!!!! That is f$%^ing cheating!!! They are practically stealing money...its not gambling. Think about it, right? They should be sued. B#%^&rds!!!!

Is there a lawyer in the house?

Quote: Ottoxman

Is there a lawyer in the house?

You're dealing with Indians. That shouldn't mean that they can do whatever they want and they certainly aren't allowed to cheat. It just might be difficult to deal with them. Whatever you do, don't give information here that would allow them to identify you.

I don't know where Table Mountain is.... but save up your bottle caps and hitch hike to Las Vegas and you won't have such problems.

I trust this even took place on your first and last visit to that casino.

Quote: 1BB

You're dealing with Indians. That shouldn't mean that they can do whatever they want and they certainly aren't allowed to cheat. It just might be difficult to deal with them. Whatever you do, don't give information here that would allow them to identify you.

Was about to say ugh, then I read that you are of the opinion they aren't allowed to cheat and can't do whatever they want, and thought...has 1BB seen the light?

Quote: Ottoxman

Is it really gambling anymore when casinos has control of the card shuffling machines? etc

Are you sure each card isn't read as it is taken out of the machine by a scanner?

The way you dove off into conspiracy land at the end suggests you are not painting an accurate picture of what happened.

They have these games to prevent errors and AP-ing. Not to cheat. If they were to cheat, I doubt it would be as extremely obvious/easy to detect as you suggest. I have APed fair games where very stupid people loudly accuse the house of cheating, based on the fact they lost and a conjecture or two.

Quote: Sonuvabish

Was about to say ugh, then I read that you are of the opinion they aren't allowed to cheat and can't do whatever they want, and thought...has 1BB seen the light?

Ha ha! Since I look for good in people, I'll probably never see the whole light. I deal with Indians all the time and have seen them get away with plenty. Do they have the cops in their pocket? I've been advised to remain silent.

Quote: 1BB

Ha ha! Since I look for good in people, I'll probably never see the whole light. I deal with Indians all the time and have seen them get away with plenty. Do they have the cops in their pocket? I've been advised to remain silent.

Maybe true, but you must have watched the Maryland Live thing. Any casino has cops in their pocket. The problem isn't Indians and sovereign land and all that nonsense. Crime is crime no matter where you are in the developed world. The problem is corruption, which isn't exclusive to Indians.

Lol scanners, exactly my point..

Quote: Ottoxman

Lol scanners, exactly my point..

No... Scanners when the cards come out, not when they're shuffled. i.e. Baccarat shoes sometimes have scanners on the front of them so when the dealer pulls a card out it can properly record it and put it up on the screen. It has nothing to do with whom gets the card, etc, and is for recording purposes (because everyone who believes in the Gamblers Fallacy thinks that little screen can predict winners).

There's zero way I'd play a game where the dealer didn't flip their hand over. How on Earth do you know the software didn't malfunction or something? I would demand to see the dealers physical cards every round. Actually, I probably wouldn't play the game, nor at an indian casino =p.

The scanners are in place to prevent cheating like previous posters have said. For example, The Hardrock in Hollywood, Whenever a hand that pays a certain predetermined amount is hit, they will remove the deck from the machine and check the screen which will tell them which person was dealt which cards, to verify that they had actually received the cards opened. If you recall a while back, and im sure still happens, people playing pai gow had been switching cards under the table and ripping off casinos for a ton of moolah. This type of scanner device prevents this from happening.

It for game protection.

The OP needs to stop gambling.

Casinos do not have to cheat to win in Pai Gow. The rule says "house wins copy hands" - to the house, "push is win". That is the bottom line.

People sitting too close together is something surveillance looks for but its usually at BJ tables that it pays the most to switch cards.

Otto,

This is a PG board. I have edited your post for profanity. Please mask your swears; warning.

As the others have said, the shuffle machine that does this has a scanner on the lip that reads the cards as they come out of the machine. They are read after they have been shuffled and stacked in hand packets, and also after the number has been selected. The machines are audited to ensure that is the case. They can be set, with a manager's key, to sort the deck, but in play mode (a different key position), they are not just required to be random, they're independently certified to operate that way.

I know this because I came here last year with the exact same suspicion and questions, and had them verified by people in the business, including the manufacturer of the shuffler. So I'm passing the info on to you.

The screen is a game protection device in several instances, as others mentioned. It allows the dealer to verify they've set their own hands correctly (the house programs their particular house way into the machine); if the 2 cards in the top hand are displayed, the other 5 are in the bottom hand by default. It allows the house to set player's House Way hands correctly. It allows the house to verify bonus hands were recognized and paid correctly. And it helps to prevent player collusion and card swaps.

Quote: Ottoxman

Is it really gambling anymore when casinos has control of the card shuffling machines? Especially for card games like Pai Gow. I don't really know if thats just the way the shuffle machine operates or if the casino is breaking some kind of gaming law. Its like this: I am playing 2 hands on the pai gow table. One of the hands is automatically house way, faced down not seen. Without even flipping the cards over ,even for the "cameras" to see, the dealer pushes this button and the screen reveals exactly what the 2 top cards of the hand are and how it should be played house way. All the while the cards are still faced down. So I asked the dealer "how is it, that without flipping the cards over to reveal them first, the computer screen already know what the hand is??? Then all of a sudden the lady dealer doesn't speak english anymore. F#$%ing ironic!!! She starts mumbling jibberish then deals the same way again..... So i am guessing the the shuffle machine already knows the value of each hand and deals them first according to the "random digital number" and NOT using dices. After a couple of good hands for me the dealer was unbeatable and cleaned me out. No wonder the table was empty when i got there. So i know for a fact that all seven hands has already been sorted and revealed to machine before picking the right digital number so that the biggest hand will land on the dealer and the s&*( to the player. Luck my %^&!!!!! That is f$%^ing cheating!!! They are practically stealing money...its not gambling. Think about it, right? They should be sued. B#%^&rds!!!!

The shuffle machine is made and owned by a large, reputable, public corporation. The casino leases the machine from the manufacturer and is not allowed to alter the machine in any way. The machines are leased in this manner to about 200 casinos in North America alone. Is there a giant anti-Otto conspiracy?