Thread Rating:

Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
April 16th, 2012 at 8:28:06 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

I would be ok with this. But JMS explicitly stated that the story, that is, the 5-year story, had already been written prior to the filming of the show.



He may have had it plotted, but I don't think he had it written. Not in the sense that he had screenplays for the five year run. Also there were the realities of TV to take into account. Some actors left, others had to be replaced, there had to be bottle shows to keep the budget down, etc.

So while fleshing out the story, actually writing it, JMS may have found he wanted to delve deeper into some things. Take the Technomages, for example. We get shown a little bit about them, mainly as props in a "The Shadows Are Coming!" sort of way. but obviously, looking back on it, they knew a lot of things they weren't saying. After that episode, long before the pilot movie for Crusade, I wanted to peek behind the curtain and see what they were about. I'm glad the books on them were written. they tell an interesting story, too.

Quote:

This is the main reason why I feel like the 4th and 5th years were just not as good as the first 3.



There were questions on whether the show would be renewed after the 4th season, so some things had to be hurried. The series finale was actually filmed as the 4th season ending, just in case it was necessary.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
konceptum
konceptum
  • Threads: 33
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Mar 25, 2010
April 17th, 2012 at 4:15:36 PM permalink
[This should probably be taken to its own thread, seeing as how it no longer discusses gambling in SF.]

I understand that things changed, and he had to roll with the punches, but I'm still discouraged by the hypocrisy of his statements. I would have had much more respect if he simply admitted to such things. He had always stated that he wrote a 5-year story. The reason being that he was annoyed and disliked the "go into space and find things and each week that will be an episode with no real story line and each week is independent of each other and if we can't think of anything, there will be a transporter/holodeck malfunction". I appreciated this. I liked the idea of a story that had a beginning, middle, and end. A specific idea that we get to see played out and resolved.

I know that not every episode for the five years was written. The idea is that he had the construct for the story arc as it would appear, in the sequence it would appear, set out in his mind, at least, prior to ever filming anything.

When O'Hare decided to leave after the first season, I know that threw things into a whirlwind. The main character and hero wasn't going to be around anymore. That sucks, and I get it. But, again, I just wish that JMS would have come out and said so. Prior to the show starting, and during the first half of the first season, he made repeated comments about how Jeffrey Sinclair was the main character, and would appear as such for the entire 5-year story arc, in every episode. Toward the end of the first season, I suspect when he found out that O'Hare probably wasn't going to want to continue, it was "suddenly" the fact that Sinclair was never intended to be in the show for the entire 5 years. JMS was called out on this on several of the forums, but he simply stuck to his change of heart. All I'm saying is that had he been more honest, and said, "Well, Sinclair was supposed to be the guy. I have a choice, either replace the actor with a new actor using the same name, or create a new commander of the station, and use Sinclair in a slightly different way than originally intended," then I could have respected that. Actors change their minds about being in shows, and that's a fact of life. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with JMS trying to insist that something he said previous was not what he really meant. ("These statements were never intended to be factual.")

Similarly with the concept of the 5-year show. Although, I take back my earlier statement that this was JMS's greediness getting in his way. I suspect that Warner Brothers had a lot to do with this. I would not be surprised if the execs at WB came to JMS and said, "Look, the show isn't doing that great. We need to make more money on it. We want books, comics, DVD movies. You need to give us story lines that are open, that we can utilize to look into the future that you've created." Maybe they wouldn't have said it that eloquently. But they may have recognized that other outlets to display the show would have given them more money. "Give us the outlets, or we no longer product your show." JMS, wanting his story to be told, would have capitulated.

Again, my main problem with JMS was his insistence on not admitting to the fact that he had to make changes to his "original" story because of changes that were beyond his control. He enjoyed being the guy on the internet, in touch with his fans and communicating directly with them, but then he kept changing his story. And when called on it, he insisted he never stated certain things, which was easily thrown back at him since everything had been written on the internet, to which he simply ignored what he didn't like to see.

All my complaints are about his actions, and not about his story. I thoroughly enjoyed Babylon 5, especially the first three years, as I mentioned. However, it's also true that I am one of the persons who, when reading or watching science fiction (or fantasy) do not need every detail explained either. I like the mystery that comes with not knowing all the details, or why certain things are the way they are. There was an episode in which Talia is asked to mediate negotiations between Ambassador Kosh and a strange individual, who apparently throws off no thought patterns. This continues haphazardly through the episode, with Talia being confused by the whole process. The episode was interesting, as this strange individual confused Talia, and somehow caused her to remember past memories that were very disturbing to her. By itself, I found this very interesting, and because Kosh was involved, you knew some kind of manipulation was going on, you just didn't know what the purpose for it was, nor did you know HOW or WHAT was going on. Unfortunately, at the end of the episode, there's an explanation of the "vicker" along with HOW and WHAT he does. Granted, this isn't some major secret that gives away half the plot of the station, but it's one more thing that I felt like didn't need explaining. Let it stew in the viewer's minds as another mystery of the Vorlons. But again, that's just me.
konceptum
konceptum
  • Threads: 33
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Mar 25, 2010
April 17th, 2012 at 4:22:02 PM permalink
Incidentally, all this talk of Babylon 5 makes me want to watch the shows over again. Guess I'll be seeing if Netflix carries it.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
April 18th, 2012 at 7:07:05 AM permalink
Quote: konceptum

When O'Hare decided to leave after the first season, I know that threw things into a whirlwind. The main character and hero wasn't going to be around anymore. That sucks, and I get it. But, again, I just wish that JMS would have come out and said so. Prior to the show starting, and during the first half of the first season, he made repeated comments about how Jeffrey Sinclair was the main character, and would appear as such for the entire 5-year story arc, in every episode.



A lot of what JMS said about the future of the story was misleading in order not to give the story away. Personally I think he had meant Sinclair to leave, but later on in the arc. I mean, what we learn about him in "War Without End part 2" is too well-integrated in the plot to eb a fix. I'd lay money that JMS planned it that way.


Quote:

Similarly with the concept of the 5-year show. Although, I take back my earlier statement that this was JMS's greediness getting in his way. I suspect that Warner Brothers had a lot to do with this. I would not be surprised if the execs at WB came to JMS and said, "Look, the show isn't doing that great. We need to make more money on it. We want books, comics, DVD movies. You need to give us story lines that are open, that we can utilize to look into the future that you've created."



I see nothing wrong with any of that. Some subjects raised on the show deserved further exploration, some deserved resolution, too. I mentioned the Technomage trilogy, but another book worth reading is "To Dream in the City of Sorrows," which tells the story of Sinclair after Babylon 5.

On the other hand, there's "The Shadow Within," about the Sheridans shortly before Babylon 5, and that was pointless through and through. I wrote a review of it after reading it. I don't have that review any longer, but I called it "The Shadow of a Novel." That ought to give you an idea of my feelings ;)

Now, the made for TV movies, well, "In The Beginning" was part fo the story arc, and did a better job with Sheridan prior to B5. But the resolution of the war gives away all the suspense of the first season. I pity whoever decides to take up B5 and begins with that movie. The others, well, "Thridspace" was pointless and "The River of Souls" was much less than memorable. "A Call to Arms," though, did a half-decent job of setting up Crusade, which was the intent. I wish JMS would publish an outline for CRusade, assuming there is one.

Quote:

However, it's also true that I am one of the persons who, when reading or watching science fiction (or fantasy) do not need every detail explained either. I like the mystery that comes with not knowing all the details, or why certain things are the way they are.



Fair enough. Howver, as an aspiring SF writer, I should tell you one rule I demand from any author and that I've imposed on myself: a writer has to know everything about everything and everyone in her books and stories. It's wella dn good for, say, Arthrur C. Clarke not to say in "Rendesvouz with Rama" why Rama was built for. But he has to know it himself, and he must be able to prove it should the need arise.

Quote:

By itself, I found this very interesting, and because Kosh was involved, you knew some kind of manipulation was going on, you just didn't know what the purpose for it was, nor did you know HOW or WHAT was going on. Unfortunately, at the end of the episode, there's an explanation of the "vicker" along with HOW and WHAT he does.



Of the vicker, yes. Of Kosh's motives, Michael and Jeffrey were guessing as much as the audience was. An author needs to know eberything in the story, but the characters do not. So why did Kosh do that?

The other thing is that keeping too much mystery lets all readers build up fantastic structures trying to explain things, and sets some up for a disappointment if the author chooses a revelation of her own.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
konceptum
konceptum
  • Threads: 33
  • Posts: 790
Joined: Mar 25, 2010
April 18th, 2012 at 9:53:27 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Fair enough. Howver, as an aspiring SF writer, I should tell you one rule I demand from any author and that I've imposed on myself: a writer has to know everything about everything and everyone in her books and stories. It's wella dn good for, say, Arthrur C. Clarke not to say in "Rendesvouz with Rama" why Rama was built for. But he has to know it himself, and he must be able to prove it should the need arise.


I have to think on this, because I'm not sure that I agree. I was never a fan of the Rama series. My writing is in the fantasy realm, which is usually associated with science fiction. However, my fascination with religion pours into my writing. Most of my stories are about various aspects of religion, and thus there are many times when there is something that is not known, even to me. I normally don't see a problem with this. However, I do feel that it isn't a good thing to keep something open and unexplained (to the author's mind) that the author then makes up an explanation for later on. In other words, if Clarke knows what Rama is for, that's fine and good, and it shows in all of his writings, as there is a consistency maintained throughout the novels. However, as I'm sure you know, you will often encounter something mysterious in sci fi or fantasy, that is then explained later, but it's clear the author made up the explanation after the fact, and you can even go back and find inconsistencies in the stories.
Quote: Nareed

Of the vicker, yes. Of Kosh's motives, Michael and Jeffrey were guessing as much as the audience was. An author needs to know eberything in the story, but the characters do not. So why did Kosh do that?


I think they made it clear that Kosh was trying to establish some sort of blackmail information on her. However, I still maintain that not even knowing anything about the vicker would have been more interesting. I find some issues with the story line, namely that a professional telepath would not be aware of an artifical construct capable of recording thoughts. Since it falls in the same purview of her field, it would make more sense to me that she would know what they are. However, given that she doesn't know, again, I feel it would have added to the mystery of Kosh for either a) nobody knew what it was, or b) she didn't ask anybody, and never found out.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
April 18th, 2012 at 10:40:07 AM permalink
Quote: konceptum

I have to think on this, because I'm not sure that I agree. I was never a fan of the Rama series.



neither was I. it was mostly written by gentry Lee, and it shows. Clarke had a much nicer sense of life about people and the universe.

Quote:

My writing is in the fantasy realm, which is usually associated with science fiction. However, my fascination with religion pours into my writing.



You know my views on religion. I'd better not bring up my views on fantasy ;)

Quote:

Most of my stories are about various aspects of religion, and thus there are many times when there is something that is not known, even to me. I normally don't see a problem with this. However, I do feel that it isn't a good thing to keep something open and unexplained (to the author's mind) that the author then makes up an explanation for later on.



Timing is not the issue. The information is. If the author can explain part of the story alter, that's fine. But he should be able to explain it all, to a reasonable degree of detail.

Quote:

In other words, if Clarke knows what Rama is for, that's fine and good, and it shows in all of his writings, as there is a consistency maintained throughout the novels.



I never did like the explaantion for Rama. I liked mine better, based on what happens in the first novel and how it ends.

Quote:

I think they made it clear that Kosh was trying to establish some sort of blackmail information on her.



Maybe. But why? In any case, given latter revelations about Psy Corps and the Shadows, maybe Kosh was looking for something else. Remember how Talia wound up, too.

Also, given revelations about the Vorlons, I believe the ep, as far as Kosh goes, was to muddle the waters a bit regarding him and his people.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
soulhunt79
soulhunt79
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 207
Joined: Oct 8, 2010
April 18th, 2012 at 1:01:32 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed



I believe so. But as far as I know neither variant is countable. In any case, they said "Baccarat" not anything else. IMO the average person has no idea what Baccarat is.



The average person may know what baccarat is but has no idea how to play it. I would bet that of the people that know James Bond plays baccarat, well over 50% of them would say that he is a good baccarat player and have no clue that it really just is about luck. Most people have no idea that you have no choice on whether to take a card or not.
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
May 4th, 2012 at 8:18:01 AM permalink
May the 4th be with you.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
  • Jump to: