Would you rather be first out or stick it out in bad times?

As some of you know from my other question, in the last 60 hours I got laid off of one job due to slowing business conditions and then hired to another because they are hitting a boom mode. This got me to thinking about being employed at a place where things are just collapsing. Some background.

In January the company had a record month. We all got nice, logoed coats and some of us were given boxes to pack our stuff in because the plan was to move around the offices due to planned expansion. Several training calsses for new hires were planned and all was well. Three weeks later the major customer of the company said that they were "exploring options for 2013 and beyond" which was newspeak for "we are drilling less and need to spend less when we do." A week before the big day they said, "don't worry, there is still enough work for now." Then they said they were looking at employment levels.

So in 3 weeks we went from a record month to layoffs. I joked (I have developed gallows humor) that I didn't need them to find me a box to pack my stuff since I "still had the one for the office expansion move that they gave me last week." I don't know how many layoffs there were. I may be able to ask if I see some former-fellow-employees at the courthouse next week, unless they were laid off as well.

Anyhoo, many of us have been in this situation. But what do you think is better: to be the first group to go or to weather the storm. I know it can vary depending on your age and how sweet your old gig was. My thought is anytime this kind of thing starts the "survivors" eventually are let go at a rate of 90% or more, room for advancement during the crisis is nill and so are all the other "extras." (eg: few raises, no Christmas Party or other nice stuff.) By sticking around you might end up as the "lucky" employees at Eastman Kodak who will never get the good deal earlier exiles got. OTOH, if you do survive you are going to be at the top of the food chain *if* things get better.

What say you all? Have you ever faced this kind of thing?

If you survive the first wave, start looking for a new job right away. The best thing that can happen is that you find it right around the time you are ousted, and get a sweet severance package (and, maybe, a nice unemployment-paid vacation) in addition to the sign up bonus. But if you get a decent offer while still employed, accept it, and move on.
3 weeks from expansion plans to layoffs :-/ It looks like your old company was really really badly mismanaged. You are better off out of there.

Been there done this, I was on the third round and IT SU_KED.

We got less of a payout than the first and second groups.
First and second groups got 1 months pay for every yr. of service, by the time we were
given the boot it was down to 1 months pay for every 2 yrs. service.

Also the job market was drying up.

Never wait for it to be "rats deserting a sinking ship". If you do that, you become just one of the faceless fools who waited too long turning a blind eye to the truth and who had no friends to tip you to what was really happening.

Being the first rat to leave is best or at least amongst that first wave.

It doesn't really matter too much who saw or didn't see what was coming or what the real cause was: something happened, its critical, ... get out. There no extra points for loyalty. There is just the tar of being one of the unlucky fools plodding away when everyone else is leaving. The last one gets to turn out the lights... but by that time, he might as well turn out the lights on his career too. Its been over for weeks.

I've been both, first and one of the last. First got me a new job, last made me wait 9 months.

I have been in both situations. Generally I favor sticking to one job as much as possible, it doesnt look good on your resume to be going from place to place. However, my last experience with all this has suggested it is a bad idea. What a guy really needs is a crystal ball.

Quote: FleaStiff

Never wait for it to be "rats deserting a sinking ship". If you do that, you become just one of the faceless fools who waited too long turning a blind eye to the truth and who had no friends to tip you to what was really happening.

An interesting seafaring omen is when you are boarding a ship for a voyage, and you see the galley cats/rodents running off the ship on the plank, something is up and you may want to re-think your trip.
Last out, last back in the game...

Quote: odiousgambit

Generally I favor sticking to one job as much as possible, it doesnt look good on your resume to be going from place to place.

It's a myth. What does not look good is the extremes. If you stay at one place for less than 8 months, you are better off not mentioning it in your resume at all. If you stay longer than 5-6 years ... you are screwed pretty badly too.

Staying at one place for a long time is not bad -- you just have to have some great references and a great reason for leaving, but it's always much, much, better to be employed when looking for new work.

Quote: weaselman

It's a myth. What does not look good is the extremes. If you stay at one place for less than 8 months, you are better off not mentioning it in your resume at all. If you stay longer than 5-6 years ... you are screwed pretty badly too.

I have to really agree here. While it was different cities and I am now far better at looking, when I seperated from a 7.5 year job my reception was much worse then when I have now left a series of 1.5 year jobs. People say "why did you leave after so long?" Then know something happened, and they know you will take longer to adapt to new procedure.

OTOH, I am now (I feel) being viewed as a "project guy" and can rightly say I come onboard for a project and move on after it is done. I am changing my LinkedIn profile title to reflect freelance/project/somethingorother to reflect this, just working on the wording.

Quote: boymimbo

Staying at one place for a long time is not bad -- you just have to have some great references and a great reason for leaving, but it's always much, much, better to be employed when looking for new work.

Yes, but if all the other employers know that waves and waves of people were leaving that company and you stayed ... then you stand out as the dork who watched all the rats go overboard but didn't take the hint.

Well, I guess, there are different opinions then ... but you are the first one I know who thinks that :)
I would never even consider hiring anyone (except for some exceptional circumstances) who has stayed at the same place for more than 6 years. I think, that fact alone tells a lot about a person - he is too conservative, non-adventurous, not perceptive to change and development, kinda lazy-minded. Besides, I am afraid, that he'll be too much set on his old company's way of doing things, on its processes and policies, on his old manager's management style ... I just sens ea lot of headache down the road getting such guy assimilated into the team and getting him up to speed.
Of course, there are different people, and different circumstances. This first judgment could easily turn out to be wrong, but my goal at the interview is to weed out bad candidates, not make sure I do not miss any good ones. I am not afraid of false negatives, I am afraid of false positives.
Instead of such a "dweller", I would much rather hire a dynamic individual, a "doer" who goes from place to place, quickly hits the road running, gets things that need to be done done, gets bored and moves on instead of marinating himself 9-5 in his old cube with a ficus tree for eternity, because it pays well, and does not require much effort to sit there.

I hit my six year anniversary last week at my job. Of course, I don't sit in a cube. I do project work exclusively, implementing software at various customer sites. And I work for an industry leader, not a partner company. I have no intentions of quitting, or getting laid off, but if I did, I'd go independent and am confident that I would have no problem finding work. I stay in my job because of its variety and the opportunities of education and career growth that it offers me.

You know, it's sad. People with 6+ years at a firm could be seen as being loyal and stable. Their job could have been dynamic and fun. They could have had children and needed the stability. They may have liked the children's school. They may have liked the arrangement of hours for child care purposes. There might have been some great benefits. They may have really liked their management team. The job may have given him/her an enormous potential for education and growth.

After all, you want some senior people working for you who can tout the company line, has a great deal of experience, and implements management policy and interests to their minions. I don't see a problem with these people. Yes, some of them get familiar and are not amenable to change but I don't think the years at one position is the determining factor here.

I was laid off in September, 2001. I was young and naive. I was hired in June, 2000 and layoffs started in about 6 months.

Step 1: Get rid of useless people who show up to work but do nothing all day. Tell everyone else they are safe.

Step 2: Get rid of people who's positions are duplicated. Tell everyone else they are safe.

Step 3: Get rid of useful people. Tell everyone else that the company is positioning itself for sale and that they are now down to the "bare bones" and the remaining people are crucial to success. In this particular layoff, we were all invited into a large room where the CEO said "When you leave this room, you will more than likely not have a job."

Step 4: Sell company to competitor. Competitor takes IP and shuts down operations.

I was naive. I made it to step 4, but the economy was getting worse by the minute. The people who got out early were able to move on. I, on the other hand, was out of work for 6 months. I applied to every job I could find, until I found one for "game tester." I thought "I don't like video games, but I'll do it since it's better than nothing." Turns out, it was Gaming Laboratories (GLI) and they tested slot machines; much more up my alley. That was my longest job at 5 yrs 362 days and the experience I gained there is invaluable to my position now.

If I had to do the first layoff over again, I would probably start looking for a job as soon as the layoffs started.

Start looking at step 2. Jump at step 3.

But always be open for a new opportunity in general.

I am getting a bit cynical in my MAWG years. When I see Step 1 I figure the good times are over and it will only get worse. I saw this past layoff coming, though the speed of the collapse shocked me a little. I saw the last one coming. The one before that I was foolish enough to think my site would be the one that the company would keep. Yeah, right.

Never again. Always having a side gig or two going. Calling myself a freelancer even if I get paid as an employee. Keep up the networking and certification. Take monthlong landman assignments in a bit faroff places, meet people, get in adventures..........

Well, not sure on the last part, but in this layoff my mind was already adjusted. When told of layoff I had a near "whatever" attitude and mentality. Already I have increased my "network" and know where to start looking before the coffee I leave on my desk gets cold.

Quote: FleaStiff

Yes, but if all the other employers know that waves and waves of people were leaving that company and you stayed ... then you stand out as the dork who watched all the rats go overboard but didn't take the hint.

What's the EV of leaving? It's the new job that you gain from, not "a-ha-ha I'm out". Unless there's a significant severance package you'd lose, no harm in still coming to collecting the pay due. By looking for a new job, you already position yourself as leaving.

Quote: boymimbo

I hit my six year anniversary last week at my job. Of course, I don't sit in a cube.

I know you are (well, I don't, but am willing to trust your word ... only because it costs me nothing, and I am not considering hiring you :))
Like I said, I perfectly understand that some people stay dynamic and energetic, despite spending many years at the same place. I just think, that as a general rule, it is more likely to run into a bored, lazy, initiative-less, "9-5" kind of guy among those, so, as a hiring manager, I'll rather avoid them if I can.
I could miss a few good candidates that way, but I am not worried about that - I am only looking to hire a handful of people, not collect every single good professional in the world. I am much more worried about making the opposite mistake.

Quote:

You know, it's sad. People with 6+ years at a firm could be seen as being loyal and stable.

Yes. But I don't really care about loyal and stable. I care about skills, energy, initiative. If you have that, I'll buy your loyalty and stability, and if you don't, then I don't need your loyalty or stability.

Quote:

Their job could have been dynamic and fun. They could have had children and needed the stability. They may have liked the children's school. They may have liked the arrangement of hours for child care purposes. There might have been some great benefits. They may have really liked their management team. The job may have given him/her an enormous potential for education and growth.

Yes, I understand, that all that can be true. Just don't want to take the risk that it isn't, that's all.

In the case of my company, we went through 3 rounds of layoffs, and now we're in growth mode again, hiring anyone we can.

Well, an update on this if anyone cares. Seems "why not be the first one out" was good in this case. I had occasion to see a former coworker the other day and it seems the week after I was let go, half-yes literally half-of the rest of the staff was laid off. The person who told me is kind of a "Danny Downer" so I could not tell if his mood was his normal one or a sign of bad things at the office. I can't imagine much will be left of the place at this rate by the end of the year.

For those who life is good, this is a story that should be paid attention to. In just 45 days the place went from plans to open 2 new satellite offices and a record month to a 50% staff reduction. Always, always be aware and beware.