What I Like about Catholicism

Quote: Nareed

I'm saying such people can be forgivena nd you're sayign we disagree?

What a racket. Invent sin, something that obviously
doesn't exist in nature, make everybody feel guilty
about it, then sell them your remedy.

Quote: Nareed

I've read it.

It misses the point. What matter is what you can accomplish with your life in the time you have, not what people think or how they remember you. By the time you're eulogized, you'll be beyond being able to care or even to know.

The point is, all is transient in this life.

Quote:

Maybe they can. The question is: why should it matter? Better yet, why didn't they chose to do good before commiting a mosntrous, inhuman and evil act? .... I'm saying such people can be forgivena nd you're sayign we disagree?

I'm saying ALL can be forgiven, and ALL are capable of redemption. You said my example was not a good one, and my reply is that you don't know the man and I do. It was only a matter of time. Has he redeemed himself? Check back with me in 30 years.

You don't have too agree with me, I'm not interested in convincing you. It's simply what I believe. If you think I'm wrong, I'm fine with that.

Quote: Mosca

You don't have too agree with me, I'm not interested in convincing you. It's simply what I believe. If you think I'm wrong, I'm fine with that.

You won't win the internet with that attitude ;)

Not to mention all the Catholic boys who had a jump on Latin when they went to Law or Medical School. I think the best thing I got from the church was a rhyme the nuns made us memorize in school -"There's so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of us that it ill behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us"
As to forgiveness -one of the places I think the legal system is messed up is in the death penalty. The only case in which the death penalty should apply is with the criminally insane. There is always the potential for someone of sound mind to repent their sins and mend their ways no matter how heinous their crimes. The insane will just be an expense to society.

Quote: EvenBob

What a racket. Invent sin, something that obviously
doesn't exist in nature, make everybody feel guilty
about it, then sell them your remedy.

+1

Quote: zippyboy

+1

That's what kills me about the 'sin' religions, nobody
knows what sin is until its explained to them. It doesn't
exist, its a construct, meant to create an artificial need
for their product, namely, organized religion.

Quote: EvenBob

What a racket. Invent sin, something that obviously
doesn't exist in nature, make everybody feel guilty
about it, then sell them your remedy.

Invent sin? From the beginning of time mankind has felt a longing in itself to be better and a deep sense of natural guilt when we make mistakes. It seems to me that every religion from the very beginning has had a way of purifying or freeing ourselves from the destructive power of guilt and shame. Catholicism IMHO has perfected this beautiful freedom that comes from knowing you are forgiven and that you are not doomed from your past (I hope that this is true for each of us and the Church itself). The Sacrament of Pennance or Confession is the antidote to despair.
Another way to free ourselves from despair is a belief in life everlasting. I always hear people say, "I'd love to believe that Father, but...there is no proof...its too good to be true...nobody has ever been there and come back...etc...etc." You'd love to believe it because it is true and there is something inside us all that refuses to believe I am really only dust. That is the true meaning behind that famous statement, "Remember you are dust and unto dust you shall return" or at funerals, "Dust to dust, ashes to ashes". It is true that while the body and everything else you see around you will indeed one day be dust - you will not! You are more than just flesh and bone, you are more than just dust, you have an immortal soul. You can try to convince yourself over and over again that what you do will ultimately not matter, but you are only trying to fool yourself. We feel in our gut that each of us is valuable beyond measure and that what you and I do echo through eternity. Yes, there is no proof, but believe it like you believe in love - something somewhere beyond yourself is telling you that there is a God and that there is much more to my life and all the life around us than some cosmic accident. We are getting off topic and seem to have come back to the question is there a God? There has to be for any of this to truly matter in the long run.

Look I know I'm not going to get many people from this forum to my RCIA class in regards to Catholicism. There is obviously too much understandable pain and misunderstanding for that, but we have to wake up and believe there is a God. I really tried to think of a way that I could return the Wizard's favor and write a post about what I like about atheism, but I honestly can't. I can do something with agnoticism, but I can't understand how in the final analysis the answer is not meaningless despair if there is no God, no afterlife, no intrinisc good or evil, only worthless dust and ashes.

Sorry for the rant, little tired and frustrated. Did I ever tell you the time I got into this bar fight...

Quote: FrGamble

It seems to me that every religion from the very beginning has had a way of purifying or freeing ourselves from the destructive power of guilt and shame. .

Guilt and shame are learned traits and responses. Learned
first from our parents, and fostered by the Church. We don't
live in a moral universe, morality was invented by humans so
we could live together peacefully. Point to something in the
natural universe that behaves in a moral fashion. You can't,
it doesn't exist.

Quote: EvenBob

That's what kills me about the 'sin' religions, nobody
knows what sin is until its explained to them. It doesn't
exist, its a construct, meant to create an artificial need
for their product, namely, organized religion.

Bob doesn't sin, nor does he ever lose at roulette. It's a charmed life no doubt.

Quote: FrGamble

I really tried to think of a way that I could return the Wizard's favor and write a post about what I like about atheism, but I honestly can't.

Atheists do right because it's the right thing to do, not because they fear eternal damnation.

And I have no problem believing that what I do will ultimately not matter. I'm driven by the need to find out what happens next. I planted my seed, and I hope she plants seeds. If it works, great, if not, I tried. That satisfies me. After that, I try to offer some human warmth in a cold world. I don't have any other time for meaningless despair.

Quote: FrGamble

You'd love to believe it because it is true

Wow! That's the most intellectually dishonest statement I've ever seen.

We'd love to believe the dice have a memory, because then we could predict streaks and points would be due and we'd all win much of the time. Turns out we'd love to believe dice have a memory because it's true!

Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin

Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Friedrich Nietzsche

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. — Frank Lloyd Wright

Quote: Mosca

Atheists do right because it's the right thing to do, not because they fear eternal damnation.

And I have no problem believing that what I do will ultimately not matter. I'm driven by the need to find out what happens next. I planted my seed, and I hope she plants seeds. If it works, great, if not, I tried. That satisfies me. After that, I try to offer some human warmth in a cold world. I don't have any other time for meaningless despair.

Thank you, Mosca, for saving me a load of typing. Your first post was very eloquent and well put. Nicely done. The one I quoted is also quite similar to myself. You represent my favorite type of athiest. One who has his beliefs, but is not so controlled by them that he cannot take a lesson from an opposing viewpoint (like the Bible).

I should also say, FrGamble, that for a serious man of God, your posts are reasonably....light and easy, I guess is the only way I can describe it. Granted, they are somewhat preachy, but c'mon, you're a Father. I kind of have to expect that, huh? ;) I do have a question, though, that I hope you can answer. In another post as well as this one, you brought up athiesm. In the other post you stated you don't know how someone could live in a state of disbelief, or with a "feeling that nothing matters" and I offered my view, as an athiest, of how that can be so. Again here, you state there is nothing good you can say about athiesm, and were given another short response by Mosca.

So my question is, how do you ponder these responses? Is there a Mr FrGamble AND a Father FrGamble, or are you always of "one mind" for lack of a better term? Does your faith allow you to look at things objectively, to even suppose there might not be a God? Does you POSITION decree that you're not allowed to?

This is truely a question for knowledge and understanding, as I wish no flame war or disrespect on either side. I'm just curious of the mindset that can find no good in something. For example, I am a former anti-religious that has severely chilled out on my anger towards religion. I now hold a view of "it's just not for me" while being able to tolerate (and in some ways even accept) religion into my life. Call it maturing on my part. I often (~5hrs a week) listen to Christian talk shows on the radio. I know religion is not for me, I know I could pull a ton of examples of why it "bad" (the child stuff, war) but I also know that for a great many, religion is a positive. While I as an athiest see some of the beliefs and rituals as "meaningless", "without worth" or "superstitious", I can very much understand how these same things are interpreted by the religious. Both of your longer posts here are in direct contrast to my beliefs. I agree with not a one of them as they pertain to God. Yet I can understand what they mean to you. Unless I'm misunderstanding, you cannot seem to understand the viewpoint of the athiest. Disagree, yes, and you should. But to not understand? THAT has me curious.

Of course "I don't know", "I'd rather not" and "God won't let me" are acceptable answers. Undesirable, but acceptable ;). But if I may assume, put words in your mouth and think aloud for a moment, it seems to me that because of your beliefs, a life (either here or after) without the love of God is, well, Hell. If not Hell then at least purgatory. So I'm led to assume that because of your beliefs, you cannot look at athiesm with anything other than pity, if not outright horror. Which I think led me to my earlier questions of "one mind" and are you able or allowed to look at this objectively. I mean, I can even somewhat understand and be amazed by something as crazy as Hitler, even though every single part of his legacy chills the bone with repugnance and disgust. The thought that someone cannot do the same just begs the question "why?".

I'm sorry for prying, but you seem like a pretty open guy/Father and something about this has got my brain all percolating. It's rare that someone like me might get the attention of a Big Dog in God's House, and I feel the possibility of an educational opportunity on the horizon.

(P.S. - I do not, under any circumstances, condone, approve, enjoy, hold in high regard, espouse, or any other thesaurus synonym, anything that Hitler did or who Hitler was. I was just making a point...one that I will probably regret come the next batch of threads ><)

I would think that sin would be anything that violates the prime directives 1) Survival of the species and 2) Survival of the individual

Face, it might be as simple as I don't understand the viewpoint of the atheist or maybe my love of God and my vocation blinds me to seeing something others may be able to see, but for the life of me I cannot be amazed by or like anything in true atheism. Let me try to say why. I like to extend thoughts out to the farthest logical conclusions. This is a good way to test things because lots of ideas or thoughts seem good at first but when we think about what it ultimately leads to they turn out not so good. Mosca and others can say till they are blue in the face that atheists do things because it is the right thing to do and they don't need some imaginary fear of the afterlife to illict their good behavior. I'm very happy Mosca and everybody on this forum is a good person, that is not in doubt. However, by taking away God (and I mean this in the largest sense possible, I'm not talking here about the Holy Trinity) we eliminate the possibilty to say one thing is good or not. If in the end nothing matters because everything is here just by dumb luck then why or how do you say this is good or that is bad? Yes, I know you can say it is for the common good and for the preservation of the human community and you can say things like I am passing on my seed and I'll live on in them, but this is just delaying the inevitable meaninglessness that awaits us all in an atheistic view. How does this help humanity? What can atheism possibly contribute to the good of mankind? It seems to me that in atheism our joys and sucess are muted and even beauty is robbed of value. What does atheism have to offer us in our sufferings? How does atheism motivate us to live moral lives and see in our fellow man a dignity and worth that demands respect and honor? No I cannot see any good in atheism because it offers to us the only thing it believes in - nothing!

Quote: FrGamble

but this is just delaying the inevitable meaninglessness that awaits us all in an atheistic view.

What leads you to believe anything has meaning?
Facing the fact that nothing has meaning, except
the meaning we give it, is a freeing experience.
Religion forces meaning on us, and gets mad when
we don't accept it. Is that fair?

To face the idea that meaning or value is only what we make it will force me to accept that the guy who steals, murders, and robs has given meaning to those acts and is exercising his freedom to do whatever he wants. Who am I, religion, or culture to tell him that it is wrong if there is no intrinsic value? Atheism strips meaning from us, and gets mad when we try to say that there are actually things that are good or bad, it tries to force us to accept that nothing matters and to not think of the devastating consequences of that line of reasoning. Is that fair?

Quote: FrGamble

However, by taking away God (and I mean this in the largest sense possible, I'm not talking here about the Holy Trinity) we eliminate the possibilty to say one thing is good or not.

I disagree. Even chimpanzees understand a social construct of exchanging favors and making sacrifices for the common good of his tribe. A chimp who is too selfish will be ostracized or beaten by the rest of the chimps.

If chimps can understand that what is good for the community is good overall then I think atheists can grasp that concept as well. You probably don't believe in the theory of evolution, but I would argue that Homo Sapiens could not have evolved to where we are today without being able to stick together and make decisions in part based on the common good.

So, no, I don't agree that atheists are incapable of telling good from bad. In fact, I would argue their sense of it is better than those who need a guidebook, or the fear of hell, to do the right thing.

Quote: FrGamble

Face, it might be as simple as I don't understand the viewpoint of the atheist

I wish you understood the meaning of paragraphs.... :)

Quote:

No I cannot see any good in atheism because it offers to us the only thing it believes in - nothing!

You're making two egregious mistakes there.

1) The casual asumption that atheism is a religion, movement or an otherwise type of organized whole. There's no such things. Oh, there are organization here and there, but nothing organized in the way of religion, political parties or even social clubs. So to speak of atheism as if it were any of the above is simply wrong.

2) The term atheism simply menas "I don't believe there's sucha thing as a god." usually taken to mean belief in the Judeo-Christian God that somehow gaine dopularity over competing beliefs. Past that there's no deeper meaning to atheism. See above. an individual atheist may or may not believe any number of things, just not in God, Ra, Tlaloc, Zeus, etc.

So, to think atheism is some form of organization with goals that offers a belief in nothing, is mistaken.

There are three things we all will never agree on. religion, politics ( except the current adminstration) and wether dice control is possible. It is futile to discuss religion as we do not find out how it actually works until we die and so far as I know, no one has come back to tell. I do not think any religion could be the absolute correct or incorrect way to go as I think none of them have the knowledge as to what actually happens to our spirits once we pass from this world. I have been a practicing catholic my whole life but I do not agree with everything they have done or said. It is not as clean cut as any religion makes it out to be. I believe our spirits continue on in some form call it reincarnation or something else. I would hate to think my spirit is only alive for what ever time I get on this earth. I have a friend of mine who is a Native American and she believes that we pick our life before we are born and that we have to experience all different types of lives for our spirits to mature. I do not know but I know no matter what the oranization or religion there will be good and bad people and hopefully they will be weeded out and positive change will prevail. I am sure the boys in Rome do not want to see the boys club broken up but I think it is inevitable.

It's funny how when the father joined these forums everyone was so welcoming and friendly... now its like a gang rape. A forum named "What I like about Catholicism" has turned into an all out attack.

I think father probably thinks the Catholic Church was and is still protecting pedophiles.
That is a matter of fact, not faith.

Quote: MrRalph

There are three things we all will never agree on. religion, politics ( except the current adminstration)

What's the parenthetical remark on politics supposed to mean?

Quote:

and wether dice control is possible.

That one could be demonstrated with a simple cotrolled study. Not only that, but it could be accurately measured. I've made this point lots of time but I never get any replies. The only difficulty I see is getting enough dice setters/controllers to take part.

Quote:

It is futile to discuss religion as we do not find out how it actually works until we die and so far as I know, no one has come back to tell.

What I find frustrating is when I ask for a reason to believe in god or religion I get either nothing or feelings. I see a deep disconnect in how people view religion and how they view the rest of the world. I think it all comes down to wishful thinking.

Quote:

I believe our spirits continue on in some form call it reincarnation or something else. I would hate to think my spirit is only alive for what ever time I get on this earth.

See, now, that's part of the problem. Let me ask you a question: do you hate to think no part of you existed since the time the Earth formed until you began to form long-term memories?

Quote: Wizard

If chimps can understand that what is good for the community is good overall then I think atheists can grasp that concept as well.

Thank Dawkins theres no chimps named Mao and Stalin.

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

It's funny how when the father joined these forums everyone was so welcoming and friendly... now its like a gang rape. A forum named "What I like about Catholicism" has turned into an all out attack.

Kind of like a sheep walking into a lion's den. I at least respect Father's courage.

Quote: MrRalph

There are three things we all will never agree on ... and wether dice control is possible.

I think we've beaten that topic to death, many times over. If we need to go through that again, let's not hijack this thread.

Quote: ikilledjerrylogan

Thank Dawkins theres no chimps named Mao and Stalin.

Weren't they?

It can be argued they were not civilized. And they certainly flung enough excrement around.

The posts about dice control have been moved to Dice Control -- for the 37th time.

I understand, FrGamble. Would it be too much for me to ask that you don't have to understand it, but just accept it without understanding?

I don't like to give personal information, for a lot of reasons but mostly because I believe that doing so undercuts my position in forum discussions, but in this case I think it is important.

What I think the most is that everyone should believe what makes the most sense to them. I believe that even the most hidebound deep south born and bred bible thumper has thought long and hard about the question, and has come up with a personal answer. To that end, I'll say that at this moment I have a daughter studying at Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile, in Santiago, at considerable expense to me. See, I don't just think it, I put my money where my mouth and thoughts are. She's a smart kid, smarter than I am. She's thought it through for herself. She'll graduate from Notre Dame in 2013.

Now, you might choose to turn this into me having some sort of fervent hope to spare my daughter the misery that I live in... but actually, the opposite is true. The very best thing I could do for her is to give her the tools to have a mind of her own, and then trust her. If she turns out different, well, we're different.

And that's my position on it. As someone who accepts the world as I see it, I see religious people, and accept them for who they are. Catholicism? Hey, I used to teach CCD classes. RCIA? Some happy folks there. Favorite writer? Man, I'd have to put Flannery O'Connor right up there. It doesn't get much better than Wise Blood, or the short story collection Everything That Rises Must Converge (the title comes from Pierre Teilhard de Chardin). I just don't believe in the "god" part, especially the personal god who cares. If that makes you imagine me as sad and miserable... I assure you, I'm fine. But thank you for caring. That's one of the things I like best about Catholicism, and about most priests I've met. Many of them genuinely care.

After reading all that, one question keeps coming back to me, " is it better to have no Pope and thus no possible abuse of power [e.g. no de facto Emperor as in early church history] etc., or is it better to have someone finalizing all doctrine so that you don't have a million preachers all going off into different directions"

Quote: odiousgambit

After reading all that, one question keeps coming back to me, ...

I think it is better to have a pope. A religion without a leader would be like a football team without a coach.

Quote: FrGamble

To face the idea that meaning or value is only what we make it will force me to accept that the guy who steals, murders, and robs has given meaning to those acts and is exercising his freedom to do whatever he wants. Who am I, religion, or culture to tell him that it is wrong if there is no intrinsic value?

But there is no intrinsic value, we obviously
make it up as we go along. The universe is
not a moral place, we invent morality so we
can all get along better. Good and evil are
concepts and are often interchangeable.
Whats good for one person is often bad for
another. 'Devastating consequences' is what
the Church is selling, and for a thousand years
they had a captive, dumbed down audience.
They kept them that way, only letting the clergy
have an education. The smarter and better
educated people get, the tougher it gets to sell
them organized religion. There's a reason why
most people with high IQ's are atheists.

Quote: Wizard

I think it is better to have a pope. A religion without a leader would be like a football team without a coach.

I don't think there's a difference any more. After all, the church no longer has the power it once had. If some group of Catholics want to start their own Church, they can do so anywhere in the West without fear of being rounded up and shot by government troops.

Studies have shown that churchgoers (Christians in Austrialia, Mormons) have a much higher percentage of college graduates than the general populace. However, other studies have shown that athiests' IQs are about 1.95 higher than agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberals (AZ take notice) and 5.89 points higher than Dogmatic persuasions (Wiki).

That said, I'm not a real believer in organized religion. I believe in God, but I don't have any proof that my religion is correct, so I can't rip on anyone, because who knows.

FrGamble is entitled to his opinion, and the opposites are true. However, there is no reason to get nasty, once again. Attack the position, not the person.

Quote: Wizard

In contrast, when I lived in Santa Barbara I went to a Catholic funeral of a janitor for the company I worked for. He was of Mexican heritage and spoke little English. I didn't know him very well, but whenever I called him he seemed to be drunk and used a great deal of profanity. He broke all kinds of company rules, but we kept him around because his wife was a reliable worker, and you had to take both or neither.

This paragraph reminded me of the funeral of my friend Danny. I had written a long post about it for one of my DJ boards. Unfortunately, that board was down for a few days, so I couldn't retrieve it sooner.

On that board, there was a thread questioning the existence of God. The thread drifted off, and several DJs had the opinion that a lot of wedding officiants don't understand how to share the love at weddings, and are too locked into their own agenda. The thread also talked about the same problem at funerals.

Timing was everything as I had just returned from Danny's furneral in North Carolina. This was shortly after becoming a Reverend, and helped confirm my decision.



Here's what I wrote, which included replies to a couple other comments in the thread:

----

Danny, who had grown up Jewish, joined a church in recent years, one with a holier-than-thou preacher. And, apparently, the preacher didn't know Danny's background, because we were told at the funeral that, among other things, none of us would ever see him again unless we knelt down before Jesus before the day was out, etc.

You should have seen the way all of Danny's family and friends sat there dumb-founded, until Danny's brother-in-law, a Christian, spoke: "He was born a Jew, and he's going out a Jew, and all of what the preacher said about not seeing him again is Bull Shit."

As is traditional for Jewish funerals, everyone goes to one of the moruner's homes for Shiva, which is always accompanied by food. There was a spread of cold cuts and assorted items. The dumb-founded silence resulting from the shock of what the preacher had done was finally broken when one of Danny's mother's friends was looking at the food, and, said loudly enough so everyone in the house heard it, "Hey Marion! Is this Jewish rye? Because I don't want to go to hell...."

Which, I guess, leads me to:

Quote:

Why are Christians always so mad? Sheesh.

Not all Christians, but there are some that are quite vocal about their beliefs.

There is a Christian bookstore in town with a sign in one window that says "There is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church." What makes them so sure they are right? Strong beliefs. Are they right? Won't know till I take my dirt nap.

Quote:

. . . That, of course, begs the question - Who created God?

That's a question I've asked myself many times over the years. And it always produces the same unanswerable questions:

If somebody created God, who created God's creator? Nah, that can't be right. Nobody created God. He was always there. Always? That can't be right either. Therefore God doesn't exist. Then where did the universe come from? Big bang? Fine. Where did the stuff that was dispursed in the big bang come from? And just how big is the universe? Can it go on forever? If not, what's on the other side?



All these questions bring me to my current position, perched squarely on top of the center of the fence, dangling on both sides: Unsure of my beliefs.

I'm proud of my Jewish heritage, but it has been at least 35 years since the last time I went to synagogue for the express purpose of praying.

Recently, I joined an internet church, one that does not believe in God, for the express purpose of becoming an ordained clergyman, so that I can perform wedding ceremonies. (And make a couple bucks on another up-sell.)

Best of both worlds. Since the church doesn't belive in God, there is no conflict with my Jewish upbringing. Although it WAS a lot of fun to tell my mother that I've become a Reverend. Mom's take on it (after I explained everything, including the up-sell opportunities) was, "You can make money from this? OK." If that's not Jewish...


The basic tenents of most religions can be boiled down to a single word: Behave. On that point, I'm fairly religious, but I have fun too.



Back to the original topic...

Is there a God? Don't know.

When I think about the possibility of a God or an afterlife, I expect to be nothing more than worm food. But I also think about a line from the song "And when I die." The line is "Swear there ain't no Heaven, but I pray there ain't no Hell."