Poll

15 votes (45.45%)
12 votes (36.36%)
1 vote (3.03%)
5 votes (15.15%)

33 members have voted

reno
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September 7th, 2011 at 10:40:14 AM permalink
One of your neighbors (you're not sure who) has set up an internet Wi-Fi connection with no password protection. The signal is strong enough that you are able to surf the internet without paying for it. Is it wrong?
Ayecarumba
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September 7th, 2011 at 10:43:38 AM permalink
It's stealing, and may be a federal crime.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
dwheatley
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September 7th, 2011 at 10:53:45 AM permalink
I read an interesting opinion piece a couple years ago saying he likes when people leave their wifi unprotected, as a backup when his router is down for whatever reason. A little insecure, but probably not a big deal in a safe community.

As for intentionally not paying internet because there is an unprotected signal, that's probably not ok. I don't mind the stealing so much (I'm a gray area ethics guy), but slowing down your neighbour's internet is mean. You could offer to pay him a few bucks a month, but if he refuses he might also slap a password on.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
boymimbo
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September 7th, 2011 at 10:57:43 AM permalink
Stealing? Sure. It's up to the homeowner to secure their connnection however. I've stolen a neighbor's connection when mine wasn't working or in the period before the cable/phone company has installed my wireless.

Let's extend this. If you're in a hotel that doesn't offer free internet but you learn of a passcode or way to avoid the charge, is it okay to avoid it?
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7outlineaway
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:03:42 AM permalink
I consider the phrase "stealing free internet" to be an oxymoron.
Ayecarumba
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:05:26 AM permalink
I'm not sure how you can see this as a grey area. It doesn't belong to you, and you are using it without permission.

If your neighbor had a nice rose bush in front of their porch, would it be okay to take a few of the blooms, since they didn't put a fence around it.. or in boymimbo's hotel password scenario, didn't put a lock on the fence?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
jsantee97
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:05:31 AM permalink
Quote: 7outlineaway

I consider the phrase "stealing free internet" to be an oxymoron.



dito!! If the owner is not password protecting their connection...my assumption is that they don't care if others use it!!
Nareed
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:05:35 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Let's extend this. If you're in a hotel that doesn't offer free internet but you learn of a passcode or way to avoid the charge, is it okay to avoid it?



It's as okay as it would be to sneak into an empty room and spend the night. Or to skip out on the restaurant bill after consuming a meal. In other words, it's not ok.
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Ayecarumba
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:13:55 AM permalink
Quote: jsantee97

dito!! If the owner is not password protecting their connection...my assumption is that they don't care if others use it!!



So it's okay to take your neighbor's garden hose since they didn't "protect" it?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
jsantee97
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:15:07 AM permalink
Nope...but were not talking about garden hoses!
kracker21
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:27:55 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

So it's okay to take your neighbor's garden hose since they didn't "protect" it?



If they send the signal into my house then i can use it, if they put a garden hose in my yard i would use it if needed.
slyther
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:30:43 AM permalink
You aren't stealing from your neighbor (unless you bog down their connection speed), you are stealing from the ISP.
Ayecarumba
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:33:13 AM permalink
Quote: jsantee97

Nope...but were not talking about garden hoses!



So, it's okay to use their water to wash your car, but not take the hose?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Ayecarumba
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:35:52 AM permalink
Quote: kracker21

If they send the signal into my house then i can use it, if they put a garden hose in my yard i would use it if needed.



But they are not sending a signal into your house. Your wifi card is sneaking into their access point. You are breaking and entering.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
dwheatley
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:37:55 AM permalink
The wireless router broadcasts packets that are received by the wireless card. Technically, your neighbour is breaking and entering.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
FleaStiff
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:38:55 AM permalink
Many people piggyback on some existing signal thinking the owner doesn't know what he is doing, but he just may be watching not only who the users are but what they are doing with it. And since its his network, its legal for him to do it.

Also, remember those Baby Monitors and Web Cams you might have around your house? Especially the older or cheaper models? They can be sending a signal for half a block or more.
Ayecarumba
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:39:08 AM permalink
Quote: slyther

You aren't stealing from your neighbor (unless you bog down their connection speed), you are stealing from the ISP.



Your neighbor paid for the access, you did not. Just because it can be taken, doesn't mean that it is okay to do so.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
jsantee97
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:41:48 AM permalink
If I didn't lock down my wi-fi...I would assume that others would use it. Therefore I would put a PASSWORD if I didn't want others to do so!!
Ayecarumba
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:51:37 AM permalink
Quote: jsantee97

If I didn't lock down my wi-fi...I would assume that others would use it. Therefore I would put a PASSWORD if I didn't want others to do so!!



When did the world change from, "Thou Shalt Not Steal", to "Lock It, Or Lose It"?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Calder
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:55:07 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Stealing? Sure. It's up to the homeowner to secure their connection however.


If it's not nailed down, it's fair game? It's up to your neighbor to lock his doors, too, though I'm confident you don't carry the principle that far.
jsantee97
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September 7th, 2011 at 11:58:53 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

When did the world change from, "Thou Shalt Not Steal", to "Lock It, Or Lose It"?



I don't know...but somewhere along the way it did!
jsantee97
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September 7th, 2011 at 12:06:24 PM permalink
Here is a theoretical situation for you....it's 9:00 PM and you just realized your mortage or credit card payment was due today and you have no grace period, if you miss the payment shit hits the fan...you go to get online to pay and your internet connection is down, but tada neighbor123's connection is up and open for business. What do you do?
Nareed
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September 7th, 2011 at 12:13:59 PM permalink
Quote: jsantee97

Here is a theoretical situation for you....it's 9:00 PM and you just realized your mortage or credit card payment was due today and you have no grace period, if you miss the payment shit hits the fan...you go to get online to pay and your internet connection is down, but tada neighbor123's connection is up and open for business. What do you do?



If you know which neighbor and he's home, go and ask "May I borrow your WiFi to pay my mortgage? I'd be glad to pay you for your trouble." If he's not home, I'd use the connection and try to make ammends later. If I don't know which neighbor, I'd make use of the connection, but only for paying the bank and nothing else. I'd be more mindful in the future to get the payments done on time.
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CrystalMath
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September 7th, 2011 at 12:22:37 PM permalink
Quote: jsantee97

Here is a theoretical situation for you....it's 9:00 PM and you just realized your mortage or credit card payment was due today and you have no grace period, if you miss the payment shit hits the fan...you go to get online to pay and your internet connection is down, but tada neighbor123's connection is up and open for business. What do you do?



Thank goodness your neighbors also left their keys in the car! You borrow the car and drive to the library a few miles away, where you know you can get free internet. Since you feel bad about using your neighbor's gas, you leave $0.65 on the dashboard.

Just giving you a hard time. I'd use the neighbor's internet also.
I heart Crystal Math.
jsantee97
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September 7th, 2011 at 12:34:40 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Thank goodness your neighbors also left their keys in the car! You borrow the car and drive to the library a few miles away, where you know you can get free internet. Since you feel bad about using your neighbor's gas, you leave $0.65 on the dashboard.



Let's not get carried away...I would think the GSA mileage reimbursement rate would be in order!
rxwine
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September 7th, 2011 at 12:34:47 PM permalink
If I er, "borrowed" something to resolve an urgent problem, I'd probably leave payment anonymously and never mention it. And try to never get in that situation again.

The temptation would have to be easy and the problem urgent enough though.

And then unfortunately, I'd probably get caught and have to stutter through an explanation.
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DJTeddyBear
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September 7th, 2011 at 12:52:18 PM permalink
The person using the unprotected wifi is NOT stealing.

HOWEVER, the neighbor may be in voilation of the Terms of Service that he has with the ISP by providing the free access.
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boymimbo
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September 7th, 2011 at 12:56:18 PM permalink
If the neighbour is getting the internet service for a flat monthly fee and is not paying for extra bandwith and you subscribe to the same ISP and are paying a flat monthly fee for internet services then although you are borrowing your neighbor's internet service, there is no cost. Therefore, there is no stealing. This might happen (even inadvertently) when your wireless modem is down or your ISP is down (while your next door neighbor is back up). I've done this plenty of times and don't consider it stealing as there very likely is no cost. The signal is being broadcast to your home and is unsecured.

If on the other hand you don't pay for internet and you decide to just borrow your neighbor's signal on a permament basis, then this absolutely IS stealing as you are depriving the ISP revenue. Further, if your neighbor is paying by the gigabyte, you're also stealing from your neighbor.

The analogy I'd like to use is that your neighbour has a sprinkler system that happens to inadvertently water (part of) your lawn. Do you walk over to your neighbor's house and offer to pay part of their water bill? You have a hose and a sprinkler too.
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FleaStiff
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September 7th, 2011 at 1:23:53 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

When did the world change from, "Thou Shalt Not Steal", to "Lock It, Or Lose It"?

The world has always been Lock It Or Lose It. They lied to you in Sunday School. Get over it!
RaleighCraps
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September 7th, 2011 at 1:43:22 PM permalink
So how does a Starbucks offer a free wifi hotspot? Do they have a deal with the ISP that they will be allowing up to xx concurrent connections at a time from their WAP?

As for the question, is it stealing to use your neighbor's open wireless?
If your neighbor is broadcasting his SSID, and he he is running with no password, then he is in fact, pushing his network into your house. He is declaring his network is open for anyone to use. The same way your ham radio can listen to other's conversations, or your CB can listen to others, or your AM/FM receiver picks up signals. Wasn't this issue also addressed back when the 18' satellite dishes were needed to receive satellite signals? I believe the broadcasters claimed their signal was being stolen, but the courts ruled the signal was free to be received by anyone. The broadcasters had to encrypt the signal if they wanted it to be private.
In this case, it is your neighbor's WAP that is broadcasting a signal into your house. I am not a lawyer, but I have to believe the law would not convict anyone for theft of service in this situation.

Now, if your neighbor configures his WAP to not broadcast the SSID, and you use other means to figure out the SSID and connect to the network anyway, then yes, I believe you are stealing. By disabling the broadcast of the SSID, your neighbor is declaring it is his intent to not have other's accessing his network. You have gone out of your way to deny your neighbor's wishes, and gain access to your neighbor's network.

What we are really talking about here is the ignorance of people using sophisticated devices, AND the indifference of the people selling the devices. The sellers COULD default the devices to be password protected and not broadcast SSIDs, but that would lead to more installation issues and help line calls. So they opt for the easy, unsecure defaults. The Users could take time to READ the manuals, and try to understand what they are doing, but they don't want to be bothered. They just want to plug it in and go.

Most of the analogies in prior posts are not apples to apples (things like taking a hose, or a car, etc.) since the user is taking an action against a neighbor's object. Let's make an analogy that is more comparable:
Your neighbor puts in an underground sprinkler system right on the property line. You notice that it sprays 3' unto your property. You have always wanted to put a flower garden in that part of your yard, but you knew the flowers would never survive without daily watering. If you put a flower garden in that spot now, are you stealing from your neighbor? It is his water, but he is spraying it in your yard. If you angle his sprinkler to gain access, then by all means it is stealing, but if you don't touch the sprinkler, have you done anything wrong?

I think DJ is right.
I would have to look closer at the fine print, but I believe the wording with the ISP says you are paying for Internet service for your household. So, if you were to make arrangements with a neighbor to 'share' their Internet service, then I believe your neighbor would be in violation of their ISP contract. And, it would be a conscious decision to conspire, even if the neighbor did not realize it was a violation of the contract.
If you are attaching to your neighbor's network without their knowledge, then they may be guilty of negligence by allowing their network to be used outside the household, thus breaking their ISP contract, but it is not willful conduct. And they would have plenty of company in their ignorance/negligence, since the device manufacturers configure the devices that way by default.


I was working on my laptop one day and decided to log into my router to make some changes. I entered my ID/password and it would not take. I had had an issue where the router had reset itself before, so I tried the default ID/password, and that got me in. I was going through the config screens and things just did not seem right. It was then that I noticed that when I had moved to my family room, my laptop had actually logged into my neighbor's unprotected WAP, and I was, in fact, logged into his network, AND HAD LOGGED INTO HIS ROUTER. (I have it setup to automatically find wifi spots when I am away from my network). I exited and corrected my wireless connection to get back on my own network, but an evil minded person could have a field day with his open system........

What is the best SSID you have seen?
At an apartment complex where my daughter was living I saw the following networks, all secured:
GETYOUROWN
NOFREELOADERS
PWISNINE
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AZDuffman
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September 7th, 2011 at 3:15:03 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Many people piggyback on some existing signal thinking the owner doesn't know what he is doing, but he just may be watching not only who the users are but what they are doing with it. And since its his network, its legal for him to do it.



What about this one--I moved into a house and the owner was using his neighbors Wi-Fi for months and didn't know it. Yessir, he even had his laptop plugged into his router, but the laptop was set to default to take the Wi-Fi signal. So what we had was one person not knowing he was taking Wi-Fi from another person who didn't know the Wi-Fi was being taken.

After some time I think the neighbor caught on or moved because eventually we could no longer use his network. When a the owner moved out and a new roommate moved in he brought his own router.

It was a lesson to me to secure my Wi-Fi, always.
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reno
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September 7th, 2011 at 6:27:19 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Let's extend this. If you're in a hotel that doesn't offer free internet but you learn of a passcode or way to avoid the charge, is it okay to avoid it?



Reno tip of the day: the rooms in the East Tower of Harrah's Reno are close enough to the Siena Hotel that it's possible to use Siena's wireless network, which for some reason is not password-protected. (Harrah's charges $10.95 for Wi-Fi.)
NicksGamingStuff
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September 7th, 2011 at 7:08:05 PM permalink
Hey I did the same thing! Wifi is tricky since it is not a physical thing per se, it is not like water one could hold or any other physical item. It is always best to use internet that you pay for (even if it is "free" at a hotel/coffee shop you are still paying for it with your purchase). I generally live by the idea, would I want somebody to do this to me? At my apartment complex in Boston somebody put up a sign with all the wifi networks they could access saying they wanted to pay someone so they could use their network and split the bill. Is it stealing if you tether your phone by hacking into the system (jail breaking/rooting) and using that to run your network even though you have paid for the service you have not paid for what it is intended for (assuming you have not paid for the hotspot privilege).
konceptum
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September 7th, 2011 at 7:49:14 PM permalink
There seems to be a prevailing thought that if you find out your neighbor's wifi is unprotected, then this is an oversight on the neighbor's part. What if the neighbor intentionally allows his/her wifi to be unprotected, to allow other people to use it?
EvenBob
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September 7th, 2011 at 8:19:21 PM permalink
My friend has an elderly neighbor who steals wifi by driving around his
neighborhood and parking in front of a house that has it. Somebody
is going to report him and it is a crime here. He thinks its funny because
it saves him $60 a month.
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buzzpaff
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September 7th, 2011 at 8:39:36 PM permalink
Any chance elderly neighbor is a pedophile? Common way they download photos so as to be untraceable!
EvenBob
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September 7th, 2011 at 8:52:35 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Any chance elderly neighbor is a pedophile? Common way they download photos so as to be untraceable!



No, just a cheap old lady who could afford the service.
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zippyboy
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September 7th, 2011 at 9:30:52 PM permalink
I checked out my wifi options at home a couple days ago and was amused what some folks call their networks. Check out the third from the bottom. I just had to take a screen capture.

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NicksGamingStuff
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September 7th, 2011 at 10:21:18 PM permalink
That is the name of your network isnt it?
dm
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September 8th, 2011 at 8:51:35 AM permalink
I don't see how you can steal something that is free. I guess it's free to the stealer, but not intended to be free by the provider.
konceptum
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September 8th, 2011 at 9:30:00 AM permalink
For some reason, I always use the name of a business near where I live for the name of my network. When I lived across the street from a bank, I used the name of the bank. When I lived near a firehouse, I used that station # as my network name. Even though I know that intelligent people would be able to figure out that if the signal is stronger across the street, the signal obviously isn't coming from that business, I feel that dumber people might actually think that the wifi is coming from that business, and obviously that business would have good security controls, and thus not try to mess with it.
matilda
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September 8th, 2011 at 11:36:39 AM permalink
Does anyone know how you can leave a nasty message on the computer you catch on your network?
MathExtremist
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September 8th, 2011 at 12:33:29 PM permalink
Lots of ways. If you can access the hard drive, drop a script in their startup folder. Or set up a proxy that traps web traffic and instead redirects them to a local site that says whatever you want (the way hotels do if you don't pay for wifi access).

Some people set up "free" open networks on purpose, not to be nice, but to steal passwords or banking information. If you have access to the router that someone else's web traffic is going through, you can capture it, redirect it, spoof it, anything.

Of course, the right thing to do is make sure people can't be on your network unless you want them to be. Use WPA2 keys, don't broadcast SSID, and set up MAC filtering: those three techniques should keep out anyone who isn't a professional.
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Flynn
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September 8th, 2011 at 3:43:02 PM permalink
Here in the Netherlands we have a clear legislation: If a wireless network is not password protected then everybody is allowed to use it. The network administrator is responsible if a crime is committed through the unprotected internet connection.
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Tiltpoul
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September 8th, 2011 at 3:53:21 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Lots of ways. If you can access the hard drive, drop a script in their startup folder. Or set up a proxy that traps web traffic and instead redirects them to a local site that says whatever you want (the way hotels do if you don't pay for wifi access).

Some people set up "free" open networks on purpose, not to be nice, but to steal passwords or banking information. If you have access to the router that someone else's web traffic is going through, you can capture it, redirect it, spoof it, anything.

Of course, the right thing to do is make sure people can't be on your network unless you don't want them to be. Use WPA2 keys, don't broadcast SSID, and set up MAC filtering: those three techniques should keep out anyone who isn't a professional.



I haven't voted or commented on this thread since I'm torn as to what to think. However, I know have a wireless card through my cell phone provider and can access the internet when I'm plugged in.

Horseshoe Southern Indiana has a blocker on the signal, but luckily Diamond players get Free WiFi there. That annoys me though, b/c if it's my internet, why should you block the signal? I know you want me to use YOUR service (and pay dearly for it), but it still irritates me.
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weaselman
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September 8th, 2011 at 4:46:31 PM permalink
I voted "not stealing". An open wifi network is by convention assumed to be intended for use by everyone.
I thought, this was common knowledge.

The routers come with security "on" nowadays. You have to take a conscious action to setup an open network. If somebody has gone through such trouble, I believe, it is safe to assume he knows what he is doing.

I am running an open wifi network at home myself. Everyone in range is welcome to use it. I know that a few people do pretty regularly, one almost constantly.

Quote: RaleighCraps

So how does a Starbucks offer a free wifi hotspot? Do they have a deal with the ISP that they will be allowing up to xx concurrent connections at a time from their WAP?


They got a business account. It has different ToS from residential one.
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Face
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September 8th, 2011 at 6:49:11 PM permalink
I mostly agree with RaleighCraps post. Finding an open WiFi, I suppose, would be ok to use to get your daily WoV Vegas fix. It would NOT be ok to circumvent a password, or to use the openess of the network for ill or evil.

BUT, I'm not hip to these techno things. If I'm paying for something and someone piggybacks onto me with no consequence to me, I'd probably not care. If their use lags up my online gaming, I'd drop a mountain on their head.
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