gun show loophole rant
The far more likely outcome for someone carrying an AR-45 in their vehicle is that they get into a gun accident or their gun is stolen while they are having dinner.
So if you were surrounded by a bunch of bikers beating your car & slashing your tires, you would..........go back in time and avoid the situation??? Huh?Quote: boymimboIn that situation, if I found myself surrounded by a bunch of bikers, I do what I always do when I drive in a risky situation. Get away. In this case, I would just stop the car and let them get ahead of me or turn off the road to avoid a hopeless situation. It's called situation avoidance.
So you would fight back by raising both hands in the air? lol!Quote: boymimboAnd if I happened to get pulled aside and assaulted, so be it.
"They end up in jail, and I end up getting stitches dead."Quote: boymimboThey end up in jail, and I end up getting stitches.
I don't get it, do guns automatically appear in the other guys' hands if you pull one out?Quote: boymimboAnd if the driver had a gun, what are the odds that one or many of the motorcyclists had one?
ZERO. (Self-defense)Quote: boymimboAnd what are the odds that, in New York state, the driver of the car ends up in jail serving 12 years in jail for multiple manslaughters.
In this case, it would have saved the guy from getting pummeled. But you would have taken the beating instead, right?Quote: boymimboThe far more likely outcome for someone carrying an AR-45 in their vehicle is that they get into a gun accident or their gun is stolen while they are having dinner.
Quote: Beethoven9thZERO. (Self-defense)Quote: boymimboAnd what are the odds that, in New York state, the driver of the car ends up in jail serving 12 years in jail for multiple manslaughters
This is the People's Republic we're talking about. Based on the circumstances, I'd bet 5 year's gambling bankroll on jail time if guns came in to play.
First, NY's Castle Doctrine is so light, I refuse to call it that and can't with a straight face. Here, you have a duty to flee. In this case, I suppose Mr SUV did exactly as the law prescribed. Whether you think the innocent party is Mr SUV or the Squids, the innocent party received substantial injury, hospitalization, five digit med bills at least, possible loss of work... and that's better than gun play in all cases in NY. NY looks at this and sees "Victim used Flee, it's super effective!" Of course, NY is retarded on a level unheard of in modern history, but there you go. If a gun was used instead of Flee, guaranteed someone would have at least been arrested and charged. Whether or not they were convicted is really a crap shoot.
Second, based on the design of almost all AR type weapons, they are all restricted in NY. Sure, you can still get one, but you'll pay three times retail, have to get a model that satisfies NY's asinine and draconian policies, get permission from the Schutzstaffel State Police, and register it every 2 years. If you want to go through that and are allowed to have one, have at it. But chances are if you're an AR owning NY'er, you've told NY to go fuck itself and haven't done any of that. Which, of course, means using it would bring an arrest and charging.
Third, realize if you do go through all that for an AR, you're still limited to 7 rounds. I'll wait until everyone's done laughing.....
Yes, seven rounds, no matter what gun you have. So,... yeah. Dunno what 7 rounds is gonna do against a mob of 40, so you better bring more than 7... which will result in you being arrested and charged.
Fourth, you can't carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle under any circumstances. Ammo and firearm must be carried seperately and can't be easily accessible. In the case of an SUV sans trunk, the firearm would need to be in the very back locked in a case with the ammo locked in the glove compartment. If Mr SUV was able to bring that weapon to bear in the time that spanned in the incident, then his weapon was not inaccessible, a fact he would be arrested and charged for.
Fifth, this is NYC. You can't have any gun period, despite how many permits or licenses you have from Upstate. Granted, it's possible, should one want to go through the process of obtaining permits, including permission from not only the State Police but also the Sheriff of the particular county of NYC you happen to be in, but even that is a right that is easily denied and rarely given.
tl;dr - This ain't Texas.
Quote: s2dbakerGuns are totally safe!
Guns are safe, it is the people who are dangerous.
Of course, as has been said before if you dislike guns you are free to have none in your home. Just don't deny the rest of us our right to do so,
Looking at the bigger picture, it's absolutely scary what states like NY and CA have done. I've visited NY a few times and love the people to death, but I honestly can't think of any reason to live there. I don't know how you and the other New Yorkers here are able to deal with the insanity! I feel for you guys.
Quote: Beethoven9thIn this case, if the SUV driver had shot & killed those thugs, I don't think even Chuck Norris as D.A. would be able to get a manslaughter conviction (especially considering the fact that this is such a high profile case now).
Perhaps. I dunno how it works if you commit a legal action illegally. Maybe they'd get off the manslaughter, but I'd almost guarantee other misdemeanor and felony weapons charges.
Quote: Beethoven9thI honestly can't think of any reason to live there.
Family, plain and simple. And the fishing ain't half bad ;)
Quote: Beethoven9thI don't know how you and the other New Yorkers here are able to deal with the insanity!
Civil disobedience. None of my peers have registered jack, and none plan to. It's funny, but NY always had draconian limits in place, but they weren't ever really noticed. It wasn't until they went too far with NYSAFE that everyone backlashed. For my whole life the round limit was 10 and I never heard a gripe about it. They go to seven, now everyone's got their stock cap 17 round GLOCK mags and 30 rounders for their ARs. I just recently acquired a Class III weapon. Why? We just had to push back.
Fortunately, our Sheriff has sworn to not uphold NYSAFE and has the entire county behind him. But the State Police are the governor's SS, so there's still a threat. I just hope I can get the upstate seccession movement working before I end up in jail on weapons charges =p
Instead, what happened was:
(1) SUV tried to ride with riders and rear ends a biker. The correct thing to do at this point is to stop the vehicle, resolve the incident and move on, before an escalation.
(2) 15 seconds later in the video, the SUV has taken off and run over a biker. Not enough time to slash tires or damage the vehicle meaningfully, but clearly a huge escalation.
(3) The bikers take on the chase. The driver is beat up. The woman and child in the car are left alone. No one died, despite the escalation.
"They end up in jail, and I end up dead." This is not what happened at all. He ended up running over a biker, and he ended up getting beat up. No one died. Certainly the situation would have been much different had the driver had an AR-45. I doubt that the bikers would have retreated.
At this point, it's kinda like you have your fingers in your ears. The SUV didn't "try to ride with the bikers". THE BIKERS BOXED HIM IN. I don't know how much clearer I can make it. And when a car is boxed in, you can't "pull over & stop the vehicle" without hitting someone.Quote: boymimboInstead, what happened was:
(1) SUV tried to ride with riders and rear ends a biker. The correct thing to do at this point is to stop the vehicle, resolve the incident and move on, before an escalation.
Two words: fingers, ears. Let me repeat what I said in a previous post:Quote: boymimbo(2) 15 seconds later in the video, the SUV has taken off and run over a biker. Not enough time to slash tires or damage the vehicle meaningfully
Here's an article: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/03/bikers-suv-chase-videotape-new-york-motorcyclists/2915111
Key passage: "The clash began after Lien apparently clipped one of the 20 or 30 bikers who had pulled in front of the vehicle. As some of the bikers converged on the SUV and began beating the doors and slashing the tires, Lien hit the accelerator and sped off, striking several bikers as he pulled away."
Here's another article: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57606470/new-video-of-nyc-motorcycle-road-rage-attack-shows-men-kicking-suv-driver
Key passage: "What happened next is not in dispute. First there was a collision, and then a confrontation. Suddenly, the black Range Rover peels off, hitting some of the riders. A chase ensues, until the SUV -- now with its tires slashed -- gets stuck in traffic."
*facepalm*Quote: boymimbo(3) The bikers take on the chase. The driver is beat up. The woman and child in the car are left alone.
So far, you haven't gotten a single thing right about this case. Check out the video below. This is the 52-year-old man who saved the family, and listen to what he says at 1:40 of the video: A BIKER GRABBED THE WIFE.
You live in a completely different reality if you don't think pointing an AR-15 at a guy would make him retreat.Quote: boymimboCertainly the situation would have been much different had the driver had an AR-45. I doubt that the bikers would have retreated.
That said, I don't expect the driver to know how to react in that situation. You're surrounded by bikers, and inadvetently hit one. Clearly, the bikers over-reacted. Clearly the driver overreacted by running over a different biker and breaking both of his legs.
Pointing an gun at one guy likely would have made him retreat. Pointing a single gun at 50-60 motorcyclists would have had a much different and unpredictable effect.
Which video did you watch? There were bikers BEHIND the SUV as well.Quote: boymimboThe SUV was riding with the bikers.
In any case, that's beside the point. Neither party is required by law to "pull over to the side of the road". But if you are seriously arguing that the driver is responsible because he didn't pull over, then I can make the equally silly argument and say that the bikers are responsible because they didn't pull over.
EDIT: I forgot to add that some of those bikers didn't even have valid licenses, so they shouldn't have even been on the road!
Clearly you didn't read my last post. Clearly you didn't read the post before that, either.Quote: boymimboClearly the driver overreacted by running over a different biker and breaking both of his legs.
I'll tell you what, go outside and point an AR-15 at a group of 50 people. I'll give you 10 to 1 odds that they will retreat.Quote: boymimboPointing a single gun at 50-60 motorcyclists would have had a much different and unpredictable effect.
Quote: FaceI just hope I can get the upstate seccession movement working before I end up in jail on weapons charges =p
Brother, if you ever get that going, I will join that movement on the spot!!
In fact, I've been keeping an eye on the Free State Project next door in NH. It hasn't seemed to gain as much steam in recent years as I had thought it would, but I'm still eyeing it.
On a related note, the number of people who have renounced US citizenship has spiked! lol...
Quote: LowPingBoyYeah, right. Tell that to Rodney King - just pull over.
If Rodney King had just pulled over he would have been fine. But being high on PCP and resisting arrest to the point he did is what caused his problem. The other two passengers in the car were not touched.
If you ask people who know, the cops followed procedure properly in the matter.
Quote: AZDuffmanIf Rodney King had just pulled over he would have been fine. But being high on PCP and resisting arrest to the point he did is what caused his problem. The other two passengers in the car were not touched.
If you ask people who know, the cops followed procedure properly in the matter.
Not to speak for LPB, but he may have meant Reginald Denny.
Quote: AZDuffmanIf you ask people who know, the cops followed procedure properly in the matter.
Really? Looks like excessive violence by the police at a minimum. Maybe it's hard to not flinch as you're being hit with clubs and that is considered continuing resistance. If so, pray to whomever you don't get caught resisting arrest. This is only 1.33 sec, should be able to watch it and the police chief statement.
Quote: rxwineReally? Looks like excessive violence by the police at a minimum. Maybe it's hard to not flinch as you're being hit with clubs and that is considered continuing resistance. If so, pray to whomever you don't get caught resisting arrest. This is only 1.33 sec, should be able to watch it and the police chief statement.
This is just the last piece of what happened. King was high on PCP and had just been on an 80 mph chase through a residential area. He resisted every step of the way and even when he was on the ground here was still not cooperating. There were two people in the car at that time which alone would make it silly for the cops to just start beating a guy.
Lets remember that a jury who saw the whole thing and heard all the evidence rendered a "not guilty" verdict. Then Bush41 decided to try them again on other charges, a reason I did not give him my vote in 1992.
I have never had any sympathy for King and the fact that he made a fortune off of this is part of what is wrong with our legal system. The fact that so many later made him some kind of hero is part of what is wrong with our society.
Quote: AZDuffmanLets remember that a jury who saw the whole thing and heard all the evidence rendered a "not guilty" verdict. Then Bush41 decided to try them again on other charges, a reason I did not give him my vote in 1992.
.
Let's remember King won a 3.6 million dollar lawsuit against the city too. Do you take OJs side because he won his trial? He didn't win the civil suit.
I always thought OJ got away with murder regardless of the trial.
Quote: rxwineLet's remember King won a 3.6 million dollar lawsuit against the city too. Do you take OJs side because he won his trial? He didn't win the civil suit.
I always thought OJ got away with murder regardless of the trial.
As I said, his suit is part of what is wrong with our legal system.
My view of the evidence is the cops followed procedure and OJ got away with double murder.
LPB
Quote: AZDuffmanMy view of the evidence is the cops followed procedure
My view is they hit him 50 times when it only took 40. Heh. Just a Guesstimate.
Procedure? (well I won't mention certain Germans who were only following orders because I don't want to evoke that thing, but you know "procedure" doesn't necessarily make things just, as in Justice)
Quote: Beethoven9thHere's an article: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/03/bikers-suv-chase-videotape-new-york-motorcyclists/2915111
Key passage: "The clash began after Lien apparently clipped one of the 20 or 30 bikers who had pulled in front of the vehicle. As some of the bikers converged on the SUV and began beating the doors and slashing the tires, Lien hit the accelerator and sped off, striking several bikers as he pulled away."
Here's another article: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57606470/new-video-of-nyc-motorcycle-road-rage-attack-shows-men-kicking-suv-driver
Key passage: "What happened next is not in dispute. First there was a collision, and then a confrontation. Suddenly, the black Range Rover peels off, hitting some of the riders. A chase ensues, until the SUV -- now with its tires slashed -- gets stuck in traffic."
Here's another article for my Canadian friend:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Biker-Brawl-Suspect-Assault-Surrender-226419411.html
Key passage: "The chase ended when the SUV pulled off the highway at 178th Street and a tire fell off..."
Gee, why did a tire fall off???
ANSWER: Because the bikers damaged it earlier!! (Which is the whole reason why the SUV driver fled in the first place!)
.Quote: rxwineMy view is they hit him 50 times when it only took 40. Heh. Just a Guesstimate.
Procedure? (well I won't mention certain Germans who were only following orders because I don't want to evoke that thing, but you know "procedure" doesn't necessarily make things just, as in Justice)
Perhaps you should investigate beyond what the low-information person knows. The video is just the end of the entire incident. From when they light up the rollers and turn on the siren there is a procedure to follow. For example, lights go on before siren. Siren goes on before aggressive action is taken. And so on. The cops followed every step of the way.
But if you want to take the side of a guy who drives through your neighborhood at 80 mph evading the cops while high on PCP then that is your choice. What confuses me is the people in that neighborhood take King's side then wonder why there is crime on every corner of said neighborhood. King was a criminal by any measure, yet they made him out to be a hero. Disgusting.
Any man that would consider the legal ramifications when taking action to defend his family should refer to himself as something other than a man.
Quote: AZDuffman.
Perhaps you should investigate beyond what the low-information person knows. The video is just the end of the entire incident. From when they light up the rollers and turn on the siren there is a procedure to follow. For example, lights go on before siren. Siren goes on before aggressive action is taken. And so on. The cops followed every step of the way.
But if you want to take the side of a guy who drives through your neighborhood at 80 mph evading the cops while high on PCP then that is your choice. What confuses me is the people in that neighborhood take King's side then wonder why there is crime on every corner of said neighborhood. King was a criminal by any measure, yet they made him out to be a hero. Disgusting.
I know the case got a civil judgment for King but not criminal. Different standards for evidence. How does that exonerate police action for the low information voter?
Your low information sources are wrong if they think otherwise.
It's justice for all, not just the innocent and law abiding.
Quote: rxwine
It's justice for all, not just the innocent and law abiding.
Felony evasion while high on PCP is neither innocent nor law abiding. Or if a guy drives down the road in front of your house at 80 mph evading the cops then that is OK with you?
Quote: AZDuffmanFelony evasion while high on PCP is neither innocent nor law abiding. Or if a guy drives down the road in front of your house at 80 mph evading the cops then that is OK with you?
What do you think I'm arguing, for no police intervention? I assuming the jury was focusing on the beat down more than anything else.
Quote: rxwineAlso YES, justice is not just for law abiding. Even prisoners have limited rights that you can't violate without ending up a criminal yourself.
They do indeed, but there are also times when excessive force needs to be use when a perp or prisoner is uncontrollable. An I do not get at all King being made a hero by so many people. He continued to get into trouble even after this.
+1Quote: Sabretom2Regarding the NYC thing, looks like a good argument for high capacity magazines.
I always hear liberals ask, "Who would ever need an AR-15?????" (ANSWER: The driver of the SUV!!)
Full article: NH Clerk Fired After Pulling Gun On Armed Robber
Quote: Beethoven9thMore liberal lunacy on guns. I guess Shell would rather have their workers get injured/killed than defend themselves. I will never go to Shell again. (And this happened in the land of "Live Free or Die"!)
I think this is a case where store owner versus store clerk can make a liability difference. The company could get sued for a mistake, like the clerk shooting someone else accidently during the robbery. Some bystander gets seriously injured with a pro gun-use policy in effect they will go after the whole chain for damage, not just the clerk who has few assets. Now if you own your store, it's all on you and knowing the law.
I may be wrong though.
Quote: rxwineI think this is a case where store owner versus store clerk can make a liability difference. The company could get sued for a mistake, like the clerk shooting someone else accidently during the robbery. Some bystander gets seriously injured with a pro gun-use policy in effect they will go after the whole chain for damage, not just the clerk who has few assets. Now if you own your store, it's all on you and knowing the law.Quote: Beethoven9thMore liberal lunacy on guns. I guess Shell would rather have their workers get injured/killed than defend themselves. I will never go to Shell again. (And this happened in the land of "Live Free or Die"!)
Full article: NH Clerk Fired After Pulling Gun On Armed Robber
I may be wrong though.
You know, I can actually see your point here. (I'm not a lawyer though, so I can't give an informed opinion on the legal ramifications.) But I will say that it looks really bad for the store to fire the guy when he was just defending himself. He had a permit, too. Anyway, hope the dude finds a (better) job.
Quote: Beethoven9th
You know, I can actually see your point here. (I'm not a lawyer though, so I can't give an informed opinion on the legal ramifications.) But I will say that it looks really bad for the store to fire the guy when he was just defending himself. He had a permit, too. Anyway, hope the dude finds a (better) job.
I agree rxwine is either exactly correct or on the right track. When I worked retail way back they always said just hand the guy whatever he wants and hope he leaves without hurting anyone. Though shoplifters were still chased, causing me to have to take one guy who chased the perp to the hospital with a broken hand. Another story in itself.
But I have to say the guy should not have been fired. Suspend him for a day and send him back to training. People who will protect your property are not easy to find. I'd hire him.
+1Quote: AZDuffmanSuspend him for a day and send him back to training.
(That definitely would have been the most reasonable reaction)
He was arrested on an attempted murder charge for a June 30, 1996, incident. Police sources said the shooting happened at a topless strip club.
But Frazier, then represented by longtime defense lawyer John Momot, cut a deal with prosecutors and plead guilty to assault with a deadly weapon. He was sentenced to two years probation and ordered to perform community service and take impulse control counseling.
Most recently, Frazier was charged with three counts of misdemeanor battery for a fight on Feb. 29, 2012, when he punched a man and kicked another. He pleaded guilty in November 2012 to one count of battery and was sentenced to six months probation and alcohol counseling." -review journal
Frazier shot two guards and murdered a patron trying to help the guards at Ballys this morning. Who couldn't see this coming? But wait a minute, Frazier had a felony conviction, the law wouldn't permit him to have a gun.
Quote: Las Vegas SunColin Lowrey told police he didn't think the gun was loaded.
You know this isn't going to end well. Since the responsible gun owner lives in Henderson, I guess it's Las Vegas related. Guns are totally safe.
Quote: s2dbakerGuns are totally safe.
Yes, it is people who are dangerous. Of course as has been said before many times, if you do not want a gun you are free not to purchase one.
Now if liberals would compromise and give us that same freedom over Obamacare..........
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/uptown/ninth-motorcyclist-arrested-beating-cops-article-1.1492716
Somebody in Canada needs to read this article and focus on this line:
"The footage shows a hole the size of a motorcycle helmet through the rear window of Lien’s black SUV, and both the vehicle’s passenger-side tires are flat."
In other words, the tires were flat because THEY WERE SLASHED! But apparently, some people out there think that the SUV driver should have stuck around to get beaten early on rather than flee.
Quote: Beethoven9thI still don't understand how taking away my 2nd amendment rights is going to stop idiots from killing themselves and/or others.
Something about when everybody is defenseless and just listens to whatever the government tells them is supposed to make a peaceful and pleasant society from what I gather.
As long as we are talking about deaths, 1,600+ people have died from jumping off the SF Bay Bridge. We really should close it. Might want to close all other bridges just to be safe.........
LOL! I like your style, AZ. ;)Quote: AZDuffmanAs long as we are talking about deaths, 1,600+ people have died from jumping off the SF Bay Bridge. We really should close it. Might want to close all other bridges just to be safe.........
(It's also ironic that the Golden Gate Bridge—in the liberal utopia of the SF Bay Area—is one of the most popular places in the world to commit suicide)
According to the liberal logic here, we should ban the police from having guns. lol...
Quote:A southeast Texas woman has been arrested and charged in the death of a 5-year-old boy who died in her care after he apparently shot himself with her gun while she was napping.
Melissa Ringhardt, 19, of Vidor, faces charges of abandoning or endangering a child. She was arraigned Wednesday with bond set at $250,000, the Orange County Sheriff's Office said.
The sheriff's office said Ringhardt was baby-sitting John Read in his Vidor home on Monday when he accidentally shot himself with the .40 caliber semiautomatic handgun.
12NewsNow.com reported that Ringhardt told investigators was carrying the handgun because she was afraid to be home alone.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/23/texas-boy-5-fatally-shoots-himself-with-napping-babysitter-gun/
Quote: rxwineMore guns NOT saving lives. If she was afraid, she should have looked in a mirror.
The gun isn't the issue, we need to ban babysitting.
+10 lolQuote: AZDuffmanThe gun isn't the issue, we need to ban babysitting.
Yep, if we had banned babysitting, the kid would be alive today!
Quote: Beethoven9th+10 lol
Yep, if we had banned babysitting, the kid would be alive today!
If it saves just one life.
So gun ownership is not similar to driving a car, because many drivers actually have insurance. Gun policy favored by conservatives is like ALL automobile drivers driving uninsured not just some.
Conservatives, like this, support some of the biggest deadbeats to society ever. Who'd have guessed.
I suppose you could argue cars do good so it cancels out the bad they do and no car insurance is necessary. That idea would be as full of shit as it sounds.
Quote: rxwineGun policy favored by conservatives is like ALL automobile drivers driving uninsured not just some.
Conservatives, like this, support some of the biggest deadbeats to society ever. Who'd have guessed.
Not quite sure where you get any of this. Conservatives generally favor personal responsibility in gun ownership. Leaving a gun out while you fall asleep would not be responsible gun ownership.
As I said before, if you want to regulate babysitting lets here your ideas.
Quote: AZDuffman
Not quite sure where you get any of this. Conservatives generally favor personal responsibility in gun ownership. Leaving a gun out while you fall asleep would not be responsible gun ownership.
Favoring personal responsibility is one thing, but there's essentially no gun collateral. Collateral ensures you are covered for damages and you have not exceeded your ability to pay.
The 19yo and many others probably exceeded their ability to pay. Sounds like a deadbeat to me. I see no difference than promising someone you won't crash their Ferrari when you don't have insurance and make minimum wage.
