seviay
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August 4th, 2011 at 12:36:45 PM permalink
Where do *you* draw the line on passion versus addiction? It seems like a lot of people draw the line at the type of activity -- e.g., "he is passionate about playing the piano" versus "he is addicted to gambling." In a lot of cases, it seems a positive addiction is just termed passion, whereas a negative addiction is just labeled an addiction.

Obviously there is no right or wrong answer here, just curious. Wizard, are you addicted to the math behind gambling, or are you just passionate about it? xD
Gabes22
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August 4th, 2011 at 12:41:20 PM permalink
While there might be a fine line between passion and addiction, I think the line is when it starts to negatively impact your life. There are some people that do very healthy things but take them to an unhealthy levels. But I do agree that certain behaviors are deemed to be negative by the society we live in, but if you do whatever, do so in a healthy amount, whether it be drinking, gambling or even something healthy like working out.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
FleaStiff
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August 4th, 2011 at 12:50:37 PM permalink
Perhaps its the difference between Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and Love.

Not all gamblers are addicted since if they were a casino would never waste any money on booze, music or anything else.

Not all heroin users are strung out junkies. Some alcoholics stop drinking before their chin bumps the foot rail, some don't.
Its often a matter of time spent, absence of other activities, etc.
kp
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August 4th, 2011 at 1:26:27 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Some alcoholics stop drinking before their chin bumps the foot rail, some don't.



Are you saying that if you have one drink and go home that you're still an alcoholic?

My take is that a passion is something that you can take or leave where an addition is compulsive. For example a passionate gambler would not play unless he can find a good pay table and an passionate drinker would not drink unless a bar stocks his brand. An addict would play any game available while swilling down cheap rotgut.
seviay
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August 4th, 2011 at 2:04:26 PM permalink
Let me ask specifically about work. Many people are branded as workaholics. Obviously "aholic" has the negative connotation of addiction. However -- ignoring the fact that many perceived alcoholics hate their life at home and choose to remain in the office to avoid going home -- many workaholics are simply passionate about what they do, to the point that they obsess over the most minute details. So, would you consider this to be passion or addiction?

What about someone who trolls forums all day? At what point does passion become obsession or addiction? Do you draw a meaningful difference between obsession and addiction?

I like the delineation about an addiction being something that is a detriment to your well-being or the well-being of others, except that in order to spend time on a passion (whether intrinsically good or bad for you), you must give up time that you might spend elsewhere. So, you may be neglecting your wife, your children, the cleanliness of your home, or your health in many ways.

@kp Do you think all addicts are totally reckless in their behaviors? For example, what if someone were addicted to gambling, but was still wise enough to only play the "best" games? Would you say that person is only "very passionate" about gambling? What about a wealthy alcoholic who only drank the finest scotch and still managed to operate his business successfully? These people may be few and far between, but they do exist. There have been many examples in history of "functioning alcoholics."

This is just an existential question, I suppose...I don't know where I draw the line.
Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2011 at 2:06:41 PM permalink
If it is destructive to you life: missed mortgage payments, health, family, work and home life deterioration and destruction, etc. "Life has become unmangeable," as they say in addiction circles.
Staying healthy mentally and physically, and Paying the bills, then you're okay. If not, then not.
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kp
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August 4th, 2011 at 2:50:31 PM permalink
Quote: seviay

@kp Do you think all addicts are totally reckless in their behaviors? For example, what if someone were addicted to gambling, but was still wise enough to only play the "best" games? Would you say that person is only "very passionate" about gambling? What about a wealthy alcoholic who only drank the finest scotch and still managed to operate his business successfully?



I don't think addicts are necessarily reckless, but I think their compulsion sets them apart from someone who is passionate. An addict will play the best games if they are available. But what happens if the best games are not available? An addict would be driven to play what is available. A passionate gambler would go see a movie. A tourist would play what's available because they go home tomorrow and this is their last night in Vegas. That does not make them an addict.

The wealthy alcoholic can afford to drink the finest scotch all the time. They can also be functional. If they go out to dinner and the drink list is anemic, do they go with water or any alcohol that's available. That's the difference I see between the alcoholic and someone passionate about fine scotch.
Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2011 at 3:07:40 PM permalink
Wealth can cover a multitude of sins, whereas the working addict may become unemployed and go down the tubes. You can hit bottom and still be in a mansion, a total out-of-your mind wreck. Squalor may befall a paycheck-to-paycheck addict.
I suppose there are some high-gambling high-rollers who choose to live in a smaller mansion in order to play more Baccarat, and these good times might add to his life in his opinion. Also alcoholics in mansions. And some who lost businesses and mansions. People spend their money as they see fit, even in cases where their lives are going into the ground. Here in Vegas you see a number of homeless "Highway exit gnomes" begging for money, presumably for the next hit, and not at a BJ table. If these people hadn't hit bottom, it's only becuase they're still breathing, they are that addicted.

Edit: there was an A & E like documentary of the Las Vegas Homeless who lived in the wide drainage tunnels under the strip: Beds, dressers, battery-powered TV's, they'd go to "work" collecting the discarded cash-out tickets at Casinos to accumulate the pennies. Casino security departments would expell them, only to return.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Face
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August 4th, 2011 at 5:00:55 PM permalink
Ah, I love addiction. Quite an interesting topic, IMO. Most people think of addiction as one thing only, a physical or mental need or urge for chemicals, usually man made. Some people recognize our own brain chemicals as addictive (such as with gamblers or risk takers) but in almost all cases, "addiction" is used as a negative. Personally, I think anything that makes one "feel good" can be addictive, and it doesn't automatically mean it's a negative impact on one's life. I have dealt with drug addiction and recognize it. I went from a simple user to an addict pretty much when using became necessary. If I can drink a liter or smoke some stuff at a party, then go about my life until some other function days or weeks down the road and not think about it, I'm a user. If I drink a liter or smoke some stuff at a party, then can't get my mind of of doing it again the next day, and deal with that need or want until I do it again, that's addiction.

I'm currently clean, but still consider myself an addict. It's just not recognized as such because it's not vices. I'm addicted to fishing. During NY's fishing season, which I consider to be from ice out to full weeds and then from weed die off until ice in, I have to fish. It's always on my mind, and if I can't for whatever reason, I get anxious and iritable. It's a compulsion, an almost-obsession, but no one cares or even recognizes it as such because, well, it's fishing. Same with video games. They're a form of escapism, it's how I unwind after a work day. I can go without in some circumstances (my upcoming camping trip, for example) but in my day-to-day, going more than a few days causes that same iritable, grumpiness. It's no different than my former drug withdrawls, with the exception of severity. Other than the strength of the feeling and the ends to which I will go to satisfy the need, the feeling and process is exactly the same.

Auto racing is my passion. In many ways it is more intense than my addictions. I record anything I can find on TV that features the competitive use of internal combustion. I watch every NASCAR Sprint Cup race and most of Nationwide and trucks. I watch the entire 24 heures du LeMans, 24 hours of Daytona, hit the local short track when I can, Christ, I honeymooned at The Bank of America 500 in Charlotte. But, while I get quite miffed when someone spoils my taping of the race by talking about who won, or when the DVR can't handle 24hrs of a race, it doesn't create the same brain processes as addiction. I pretty much get pissed for a moment and then forget about it, whereas a missed trout-run fishing trip would sit on my mind and percolate until I was finally able to get out.

So, while I'm no Dr. Drew Pinsky, I'd say you don't get to decide whether you're an addict or just passionate, but just because you're addicted doesn't mean you should necessarily feel bad or be subject to ridicule. If you absolutely NEED a beer or two day, you're probably an addict. So what? There are people who are addicted to excersise who do far more damage to themselves than your 2 beer a day habit, yet one's looked at as "a drunk" and the other is admired for their commitment to health. Being an addict in no way means you MUST be causing damage, you just need to be on the lookout because it CAN.

Put quite simply, a passion is something you do because you WANT to, an addiction is something you do because you NEED to.
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Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2011 at 5:06:34 PM permalink
Face -
True. Yet People can die from withdrawal, and have. They don't notice they need it, and think they choose it, because they can afford to avoid abstaining.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Face
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August 4th, 2011 at 6:53:09 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Face -
True. Yet People can die from withdrawal, and have. They don't notice they need it, and think they choose it, because they can afford to avoid abstaining.



Agreed, people can die from withdrawl. Not to be purposely obtuse, but I'm not sure if this was a 'for' or 'against' my post, or just a factoid. I just don't follow. Unless you're making the point that addictions are damaging, which I agree they can be, without a doubt. It was just my stance that while they can be, it doesn't mean that they must be.
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midwestgb
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August 4th, 2011 at 7:38:37 PM permalink
I'm pretty sure I'm addicted to life. And my life happens to include gambling and the Internet... ;-)
Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2011 at 7:53:56 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Agreed, people can die from withdrawl. Not to be purposely obtuse, but I'm not sure if this was a 'for' or 'against' my post, or just a factoid. I just don't follow. Unless you're making the point that addictions are damaging, which I agree they can be, without a doubt. It was just my stance that while they can be, it doesn't mean that they must be.


It was Just an observation about addiction: wealth can mask it somewhat, making people think that they've chosen it instead of being addicted. Paying your bills and living large may make one think that he has it all together. When you're on the street, you may know that the wheels have finally come off.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
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August 4th, 2011 at 8:01:44 PM permalink
If partaking in the substance or activity -- gambling, cigarettes, alcohol, weed, cocaine, sex, TV, internet -- makes me happier than not engaging in it, I'm going to go for it. If not doing so is what makes me happiest, that's the path I'm going to take. I have a hard time believing anyone lives their life differently

Under that premise, there is virtually no such thing as substance abuse. Maybe the 19-year-old who tries Captain Morgan for the first time doesn't know what the next morning is going to feel like. But other than those few exceptions, we all know what expected outcomes from betting rent money or smoking three packs a day. If we like gambling and smoking more than we like our homes and lungs, then not doing those things would be abusive
avargov
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August 4th, 2011 at 8:28:07 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

If partaking in the substance or activity -- gambling, cigarettes, alcohol, weed, cocaine, sex, TV, internet -- makes me happier than not engaging in it, I'm going to go for it. If not doing so is what makes me happiest, that's the path I'm going to take. I have a hard time believing anyone lives their life differently

Under that premise, there is virtually no such thing as substance abuse. Maybe the 19-year-old who tries Captain Morgan for the first time doesn't know what the next morning is going to feel like. But other than those few exceptions, we all know what expected outcomes from betting rent money or smoking three packs a day. If we like gambling and smoking more than we like our homes and lungs, then not doing those things would be abusive



This is insane. Take Meth as an example. You will feel much happier than you are right now when you take it because of the much increased dopamine levels in the brain....ah.....however, after a time, the silly 'ole brain just plain shuts off the receptors for that dopamine. Then you ain't so happy anymore..so you continue to 'chase the dragon' till it fucking kills you, or you seek help for your addiction.
But please partake....I will guarantee you that it will make you happier than you are now....I dare ya....

Edit: Before you say that I am making your point, please understand that you have no idea how you will feel on it, until you take it. And it goes back to the whole boiling a frog alive theory...most people think they can handle their choices. Then one day you find yourself on a 30 hour craps session wondering how your gonna pay your mortgage. Happens everyday to good people just like those who post on this board.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
TomG
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August 4th, 2011 at 9:08:19 PM permalink
avargov,
You are right that I don't know what meth feels like. But I do know that there no matter how great the positive sides are, there are negatives as well. I may not know with absolute certainty, but I do have a pretty good idea going through those negative parts would decrease happiness overall, even when combined with such an awesome high

Perhaps that just means I'm risk averse

Perhaps there are those who can only find happiness by seeking out risk and end up spiraling into exactly what you describe. But once they hit the level of "dragon chasing," they can detox. Then if they decide to use again, they know exactly what they're getting themselves into and they are always free to not shoot up

-----

No matter what choices we make ... whether losing a home because of gambling or never getting a first-hand account of what crystal meth feels like ... we all handle them. Every day. Until we f-ing die ... sometimes from too much drugs, but most of us make choices with the intent that it will come from too much old age
MarieBicurie
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August 4th, 2011 at 10:45:20 PM permalink
One of the other problems with this question is that it's not whether or not I think I am passionate or addicted. It all depends on what everyone else thinks. I could be a successful poker player who plays weekly tournaments at different casinos say 5 days a week. I am not losing money, I am winning enough to pay the bills. Sound great right? WRONG! All my friends who I don't send my exact profit tally for obvious reasons, see a guy who spends most of his time in a casino. I obviously have a gambling problem in their eyes. It's only a matter of time before I walk into an intervention. Whether or not I actually have the problem isn't really relevant if everyone is under the impression I do (even if it is merely an assumption with no actual facts).
seviay
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August 4th, 2011 at 10:47:49 PM permalink
Quote: MarieBicurie

One of the other problems with this question is that it's not whether or not I think I am passionate or addicted. It all depends on what everyone else thinks. I could be a successful poker player who plays weekly tournaments at different casinos say 5 days a week. I am not losing money, I am winning enough to pay the bills. Sound great right? WRONG! All my friends who I don't send my exact profit tally for obvious reasons, see a guy who spends most of his time in a casino. I obviously have a gambling problem in their eyes. It's only a matter of time before I walk into an intervention. Whether or not I actually have the problem isn't really relevant if everyone is under the impression I do (even if it is merely an assumption with no actual facts).


Marie, this isn't just a random forum post...it's an intervention. We think you might have a problem, and we're worried about you ;)
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2011 at 10:59:25 PM permalink
Quote: MarieBicurie

All my friends who I don't send my exact profit tally for obvious reasons, see a guy who spends most of his time in a casino.



If you're a guy, why is your name Marie?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
algle
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August 4th, 2011 at 11:09:38 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

If you're a guy, why is your name Marie?



Since Bob is so odd, why is his name EvenBob? An equally stupid question.
If nothing will change then I am nothing.
Face
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August 5th, 2011 at 12:52:01 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It was Just an observation about addiction: wealth can mask it somewhat, making people think that they've chosen it instead of being addicted. Paying your bills and living large may make one think that he has it all together. When you're on the street, you may know that the wheels have finally come off.



Very true. There are many things that can "mask" it. Generally, anyone who is doing ok, i.e. pays there bills, does good at their job, is a good person/spouse/parent, masks their problem from the outside world, and also from themselves. I personally had a weird experience when I knew and accepted I was an addict, but was repeatedly told I wasn't because I wasn't a scumbag degenerate. Being an addict to so many people means "skid row, gutter-living crack head", when really I'd say a great majority of people are addicts. They either truely don't know it, and/or it's something that isn't stigmatized (caffeine, nicotine, risk, etc) And really, is an alcoholic coke head so different than a chain smoking coffee fiend? Most say hell yeah. I tend to think they're more closely related than most would think.

Quote: MarieBicurie

One of the other problems with this question is that it's not whether or not I think I am passionate or addicted. It all depends on what everyone else thinks.



Untrue, unless you're speaking figuratively and I missed your point. No one can tell you you're an addict. Even YOU can't tell yourself you're an addict. You just are or aren't. If you hit the casino everyday as in your example, people might tell you you are. You can even think you are. But if like Mosca you become bored with it, or you have no mental affectation from stopping it, you're simply not addicted, no matter what anyone says.

That for me is one of my interests in addiction. I used to drink HEAVILY during my college years and loved it. Watching me down 16oz of Bacardi in a gulp twice every weekend, one might call me an addict. But one random day, I just didn't anymore. I no longer wanted to, so I simply chose not to. Why can I do that, but others fight the battle of their lives to stop, and sometimes die doing so?
Cocaine and it's derivitives are largely thought of as one of the most highly addictive substance on Earth. I happened upon it back in 2001-ish, and sort of randomly fell into a serious scene of cocaine use. I went through a period of about 5 months of semi-heavy, very frequent use. I still had a job, I still paid my bills, I was still the respectful guy my mama raised me to be. But it was everywhere, and I always seemed to be in the middle of it. Seeing me partaking several times a day, 3-5 days a week for months, one might call me an addict. But one day, seemed like overnight, the supply just disappeared. So...I quit. Just like that. No shakes, no detox, no mania, no paranoia, last week I was a user, this week I'm not, and haven't been since. Why is that? Some move on to crack, some would troll the streets in an endless search for it, but I just zoop! done.

Weed is largely thought of as relatively innocent and completely unaddictive substance. In a somewhat humorous twist, I was hooked through the bag on it. Still had the job, still the good guy, but could not quit it for the world. Rather than just quit this "totally non addictive plant", I repeatedly risked my well paying job, snuck in piss samples, sometimes tested positive but knew the tester and snuck by, I just couldn't kick it. When it came to the point where I just could not risk my job anymore (new truck, new mortgage) I quit. But I waited to the very last possible moment and had days of shakes, irritability, cold sweats, night terrors, the whole detox handbag. Some would say it's non-addictive, and because I wasn't stealing or whoring myself out, that I wasn't addicted. Couldn't be addicted. But man, was I ever. Why? How could I kick cocaine easier than quiting my Mountain Dew habit, yet weed brought me to my knees. How can we here spend an hour at the casino, yet some people die from exhaustion after a 30 hour session. I can run a few races online for an hour and then go about my day, so how could that couple get so absorbed in World of Warcraft they let their child die? The brain is quite a marvel, and this little feature is one of my favorite.
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rxwine
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August 5th, 2011 at 2:11:04 AM permalink
An addiction is a activity that you can no longer consciously feel in control of. Which may or may not be highly destructive, depending on what it is.

I think a passion could cross into the area of addiction because it has many similar aspects of engagement. For instance, while I don't dislike porn, apparently some people get all wound up in the consumption of it. I can understand because of what it's there for, why that might happen to some people.

I know people who are absolutely bored to tears to gamble. They've tried it. They don't get any enjoyment out of it. The chance they'd ever be a problem gambler is about zero.
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odiousgambit
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August 5th, 2011 at 3:17:47 AM permalink
Quote:

passionate or addicted.



add 'obsessed'

Quote: avargov

And it goes back to the whole boiling a frog alive theory...most people think they can handle their choices. Then one day you find yourself on a 30 hour craps session wondering how your gonna pay your mortgage. Happens everyday to good people just like those who post on this board.



I have a tendency to get obsessed, which I consider a risk factor for gambling. Thus I keep an eye on my proclivities; I have to agree with the assertion that "most people think they can handle their choices" and often find out different. Worse, in the midst of it they are the worst person to be assessing it all.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MarieBicurie
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August 5th, 2011 at 3:30:43 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

If you're a guy, why is your name Marie?



Ummm... It's a pun. I really didn't think I'd have to explain it, but I guess I have to consider the source.

In answer to Face, What I was getting at is Gambling is one of those activities that I think people often generalize as an addiction in advance. People are more open to the idea of Poker as a legitimate skill game so it's less apparent. Even then, a lot of the friends I once had don't really associate with me anymore because they see me as a problem gambler. No one in my immediate family thinks this, but the people with the fewest facts see a guy who is always spending more time in casinos than the average person and therefore MUST have a problem. I think if I spent equal amount of time burning money on the stock market and losing like crazy, I'd be seen as an investor struggling in this terrible economy, but not a problem gambler. I guess the point I'm making is certain activities people have a bit of a bias towards before they even encounter the situation. Many alcoholics are "Social drinkers", Smokers don't have an addiction just more breaks at work, and all gamblers are hopelessly deluded. I could be alone, but I have heard from others who are serious about gaming go through the same situations.
pacomartin
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August 5th, 2011 at 4:21:58 AM permalink
Quote: MarieBicurie

No one in my immediate family thinks this, but the people with the fewest facts see a guy who is always spending more time in casinos than the average person and therefore MUST have a problem. I think if I spent equal amount of time burning money on the stock market and losing like crazy, I'd be seen as an investor struggling in this terrible economy, but not a problem gambler.

I guess the point I'm making is certain activities people have a bit of a bias towards before they even encounter the situation.



I think most behavioral scientists don't distinguish between the two. Someone inclined to smoke 2 packs a day might just as easily become addicted to the endorphins from running. But I've seen runners who ruin their knees because they can't stop. So while running is generally viewed positively, the person seriously hurts himself for life because he can't stop.

Sometimes gambling seems safer than investing. At least with gambling you know the odds.
konceptum
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August 5th, 2011 at 10:43:20 AM permalink
I am passionate about my addictions, and I'm addicted to my passions.
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