Reports Coming In Saying Bin Laden Is Dead...

You feel what you feel, why worry about how anybody else is feeling. It would be a little bizarre if everybody was feeling exactly the same way, wouldn't it.

Quote: teddys

Are you reenacting the Oswald photo?

Good guess. It was meant as a parody of the typical Al Quaida (sp?) martyr photos where they are holding a gun, looking tough and serious.

Quote: Wizard

I'd be interested to see front page shots by other forum members.

I can across this article with front page pictures of a bunch of major papers.

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=99&SubSectionID=1350' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=99&SubSectionID=1350"]http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=99&SubSectionID=1350

Quote: cellardoor

I can across this article with front page pictures of a bunch of major papers.

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=99&SubSectionID=1350

' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=99&SubSectionID=1350"]http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=99&SubSectionID=1350

I know we don't have a large catalog of photos of Bin Laden, but I found it interesting that most of those 40+ newspapers used the very same photo, and most of the rest used the same alternate photo.

Quote: Face

I have a question and I'm posting here instead of FSZ because it's serious. I'm not being rhetorical, nor intending to inflame, incite, or otherwise disrupt. But...



I see excitement, jubilation, celebration....may I ask why?

Again, I'm not asking as a passive-aggressive way of saying you should be ashamed of yourselves for acting in this manner, or of some belief that 'all life is sacred' and y'all are horrible, or any other similar bullshit.

I think there is little doubt this is hinting a comparison of celebration now to the celebration by Muslims when the towers were hit. I think there are some key differences though. First, we were not at war on 9/11, even though some may say our policies were aggressive in parts of the middle east. Those people who celebrated on 9/11 were cheering deaths of civilians in peacetime. Second, Bin Laden was a military leader in a time of war. We did our best to avoid civilian casualties in this mission, the opposite of what was done on 9/11.

What kind of man are you to question rejoicing or at least satisfaction in a military victory during war? Can you imagine such a laughable scenario as a bunch of stoic warriors after victory on the battlefield where their lives were in danger? Celebrating the fall of your enemy does not make you bloodthirsty and brutish. When I accidentally hit an animal crossing the road I am sickened, and when I clean fish and lobsters I've caught for consumption I don't enjoy it at all. But if I or my family are physically threatened I would have no qualms in slitting throats and breaking necks.

Quote: clarkacal

I think there is little doubt this is hinting a comparison of celebration now to the celebration by Muslims when the towers were hit. I think there are some key differences though. First, we were not at war on 9/11, even though some may say our policies were aggressive in parts of the middle east. Those people who celebrated on 9/11 were cheering deaths of civilians in peacetime. Second, Bin Laden was a military leader in a time of war. We did our best to avoid civilian casualties in this mission, the opposite of what was done on 9/11.

What kind of man are you to question rejoicing or at least satisfaction in a military victory during war? Can you imagine such a laughable scenario as a bunch of stoic warriors after victory on the battlefield where their lives were in danger? Celebrating the fall of your enemy does not make you bloodthirsty and brutish. When I accidentally hit an animal crossing the road I am sickened, and when I clean fish and lobsters I've caught for consumption I don't enjoy it at all. But if I or my family are physically threatened I would have no qualms in slitting throats and breaking necks.

Little doubt? I don't think there's been one time I have ever pointed fingers or become accusatory while in the House of Wiz. Even when Singer basically said I was lacking worth and deserved execution, I remained respectful and eventually gained a discussion with him. My question was genuine. I am usually slow to react by design, as knee-jerk reactions have shown to get me into trouble. But in this case it wasn't a case of being slow to react, it was a case of having no reaction at all. It confused me.

I can understand how you could interpret my question in the way that you did, which I forseen and hoped to quell with the disclaimer I began the post with. Sadly, it appears I didn't do well enough. While I don't believe there was wrong doing here, I will gladly offer an apology to you clarkacal, for causing distress was in no way my intention.

Was I "questioning rejoicing or at least satisfaction in a military victory"? I reckon you could say that I was. But I wasn't doing so in a condemning, "how could you do that" sort of way. I was....I guess I was searching for understanding. I suppose you could even say I was looking for hope. After going through the days of the attack as we all did, after going to NYC soon after as some of us did, after seeing a close childhood friend walk again for the first time with his new, manufactured legs just a month or so ago, I guess I was just looking for the "good". Maybe, by sharing my story, others would share theirs and I would find that. Some did, and it gave understanding. Of what this meant and what they feel. Of looking at this from another set of eyes. Eventually, if I keep asking enough people, maybe I will find the good. Maybe, just maybe, I will find that hope.

A great thing happened on 9/11. Although we were attacked in one the most despicable and cowardly ways that caused the death of thousands of innocents, there was a unification. After the shock and horror was absorbed, America and her people Came Together with a sense of resolve, pride and determination I have never experienced before. Gone were Class Lines, Party Lines, Racial Lines.... there was only Us. Reps and Dems, Rich and Poor, Black and White,....AMERICANS, standing shoulder to shoulder, working to set this mess to rights. That gave me peace, gave me hope. It showed me that no matter the obstacle, no matter the fear, no matter the concern, We Will Overcome. In the ten years since, I've seen my country fiscally implode, friends come back in pieces, and some not come back at all. I guess I'm just searching for that feeling again. Hoping for hope, if you will.

My apologies again to anyone else who I may have offended. To those who responded, I thank you for your replies.

Quote: Face

I can understand how you could interpret my question in the way that you did, which I forseen and hoped to quell with the disclaimer I began the post with. Sadly, it appears I didn't do well enough. While I don't believe there was wrong doing here, I will gladly offer an apology to you clarkacal, for causing distress was in no way my intention.

No apology necessary. After rereading your initial post I feel I may have overreacted and condemned you too hastily.

I do support the President's decision not to show the photos. I think it was essentially a no brainer. I was actually very upset that they released the other photos of the blood stained bed, they first said he resisted, then that he was unarmed. That the woman was used as a shield, then she wasn't.

They should have released no details at all, except maybe that they buried him at sea and prepared the body in accordance with Muslim tradition. The American interest in details, and the fact that some people will doubt the validity of the killing is irrelevant. Details invariably make the situation worse, not better.

Quote: Sarah Palin, on Twitter:

Show photo as warning to others seeking America's destruction. No pussy-footing around, no politicking, no drama;it's part of the mission

Quote: me

Sarah Palin is an idiot

Killing is brutal. The reaction of US citizens to the execution of a man without trial, who poses no immediate threat really shows that USA is still far from being a civilized country.

Quote: Jufo81

Killing is brutal. The reaction of US citizens to the execution of a man without trial, who poses no immediate threat really shows that USA is still far from being a civilized country.

If you are going to troll, please do not be so obvious about it.

I don't think he had much of chance under those conditions anyway.

Even if appearing unarmed they would have had to take their time to make sure he wasn't booby trapped. A real concern, I think.

But they were also potentially pressed for time if Pakistan was scrambling jets to attack them for violating air space.

Quote: Altut

Pakistani jets were no threat for 2 reasons: and two because they would have been shot down immediately by Raptors that were backing up the border incursion.

1. Pakistan flies some nice planes. I'm not sure it's accurate to say their F-16s would be "...shot down immediately..." like they'd be THAT overmatched.

2. Pakistan has an absolute right to defend their sovereign territory. Shooting down their planes in their airspace is an act of war.

Not saying we shouldn't have done what we did, just pointing out that you're a little fast to discount the risks.

We have had a lot of discussion in this thread about how Bin Laden was not noticed in his compound. I am much more puzzled on how the US safe house was maintained so close for months and the surveillance carried out without any neighbours noticing. Presumably at least some of the surveillance team if not all of it was carried out by Americans who should have stood out like a sore thumb. Bin Laden's entourage would at least be able to blend in a little easier.

Quote:

of the surveillance team if not all of it was carried out by Americans who should have stood out like a sore thumb. Bin Laden's entourage would at least be able to blend in a little easier.

Out of 300 million+ U. S. citizens, I hope we can come up with 2 or 3 who can pass for Pakistani to do some spying.

Quote: rxwine

Even if appearing unarmed they would have had to take their time to make sure he wasn't booby trapped. A real concern, I think.

This is something I don't get--anyone complaining we shot an unarmed man. Seriously? I go to the airport and I'm visibly unarmed and yet they put me through a scanner or a metal detector to make sure I don't have explosives in my underwear, and yet they trust that a terrorist mastermind in a flowing robe is unarmed because he doesn't appear to be armed? How about trusting me that I'm unarmed instead. I'll settle for that.

Quote: rxwine

Out of 300 million+ U. S. citizens, I hope we can come up with 2 or 3 who can pass for Pakistani to do some spying.

You beat me to it!

They pass for Pakistani, British, and Russian. If it's a CIA safe house, they probably actually *are* Pakistani, British, and Russian in addition to the 2 or 3 Americans who can blend in well enough to be involved.

more specifics

Quote:

U.S. officials provided new details on bin Laden’s final moments, saying the al-Qaeda leader was first spotted by U.S. forces in the doorway of his room on the compound’s third floor. Bin Laden then turned and retreated into the room before being shot twice — in the head and in the chest. U.S. commandos later found an AK-47 and a pistol in the room.

“He was retreating,” a move that was regarded as resistance, a U.S. official briefed on the operation said. “You don’t know why he’s retreating, what he’s doing when he goes back in there. Is he getting a weapon? Does he have a [suicide] vest?”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/cia-spied-on-bin-laden-from-safe-house/2011/05/05/AFXbG31F_story.html

Quote: FarFromVegas

This is something I don't get--anyone complaining we shot an unarmed man. Seriously?

Good point.

But I'd go further and say we dind't shoot an unarmed man, we shot an unarmed mass murderer. What's wrong with that?

Quote: Nareed

Good point.

But I'd go further and say we dind't shoot an unarmed man, we shot an unarmed mass murderer. What's wrong with that?

Well, we got that whole innocent until proven guilty in a court of law thing going on here. But, seriously? C'mon.

I have no problem with what went down, personally.

Quote: Nareed

Good point.

But I'd go further and say we dind't shoot an unarmed man, we shot an unarmed mass murderer. What's wrong with that?

I was a bit surprised when Shep Smith called it murder.

Quote: Wavy70

I was a bit surprised when Shep Smith called it murder.

Is it possible to murder someone who is wanted dead or alive? Doesn't the wanted dead part basically make him fair game? Plus, pretend you're one of the SEALs...You're really going to stand in the same room as OBL and approach him without shooting him? There's no possible way to expect those men to not kill him. He's a terrorist...the risks to their safety were just to great to attempt to take him alive.

Quote: FarFromVegas

Well, we got that whole innocent until proven guilty in a court of law thing going on here. But, seriously? C'mon.

Indeed. You'd need a really biased jury to find him not guilty. And I doubt even Obama would try him at Berkley :P

But the other thing to consider is that we're at war. Al Qaida, bin Laden and the Taliban among others, are not a criminal matter. Killing bin Laden is a strategic decision, not a legal one. I mean, there's no need for a legal ruling on the subject.

I do wish Obama would ok the release of photos or other evidence proving bin Laden dead. I have no doubts myself, but a lot of reasonable people, not conspiracy theorists, are doubtful. Such reasonable people tend to feed conspiracy theorists, eitehr by design or unwittingly. So any concrete evidence would be appreciated.

Quote: arcimedes

Imagine what a charmed life he'll have after it becomes public, and he deserves it.

Al Queda operatives will find him, and they will kill him...

Quote: rxwine

Quote:

... Bin Laden then turned and retreated into the room before being shot twice — in the head and in the chest. U.S. commandos later found an AK-47 and a pistol in the room.

“He was retreating,” a move that was regarded as resistance, a U.S. official briefed on the operation said. “You don’t know why he’s retreating, what he’s doing when he goes back in there. Is he getting a weapon? Does he have a [suicide] vest?”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/cia-spied-on-bin-laden-from-safe-house/2011/05/05/AFXbG31F_story.html

I don't think I have a problem with the fact that Bin Laden and others were shot in that situation. The thing that concerns me about the way the incident has been reported is this: I have only heard that one of the occupants of the compound was found with a weapon on him. (Is that the way others have heard it reported?) Yet the SEALS are described as being in a firefight the whole time. Would they consider it a firefight if only the SEALS had guns?

I would consider it reasonable to say that they attacked the compound, shot the only occupant that had a gun, shot some others that they thought might be threats in some way, and took one body along with whatever else they thought might be valuable (other than the remnants of one stealth copter). I just don't know that calling it a "firefight throughout" isn't a bit of an exaggeration.

With all that said, I hope the government can man up, declare victory, and get the hell out of there and bring the soldiers home.

Quote: rdw4potus

Al Queda operatives will find him, and they will kill him...

I'm sure a few Al Queda assholes are no match for a SEAL. And if they went after him it would just save the SEALS time tracking them down in the first place.

The act of going into Pakistan and killing UBL was absoultely illegal, but it was the right thing to do. Killing an unarmed UBL, also illegal, but also, absolutely, the right thing to do. Will the leaders of Pakistan come after the US for their illegal actions, when it was more than likely harboring him? Not while they're receiving $2B in aid. Will UBLs' protectors come after America after this. Absolutely? They've been trying for 15 years.

Quote: boymimbo

The act of going into Pakistan and killing UBL was absoultely illegal, but it was the right thing to do. Killing an unarmed UBL, also illegal, but also, absolutely, the right thing to do. Will the leaders of Pakistan come after the US for their illegal actions, when it was more than likely harboring him? Not while they're receiving $2B in aid. Will UBLs' protectors come after America after this. Absolutely? They've been trying for 15 years.

I couldn't agree with you more. 2 billion a year is a lot of money. I would love to find out if it was legal for us to go into pakistan. Bin laden has admitted his involvement on the attack of the United States that killed 3,000 people. I know if another country attacks us , we don't need aproval of any country to attack back. But this is not the case.The question is , are we allowed to go into another country that is hiding Bin laden. Pakistan would have a hell of time trying to claim they knew nothing. As far as killing an unarmed man is concerned, What is the law when it comes to the military in combat. I don't think that the leaders of Pakistan have a leg to stand on. Like you said, as long as they are receiving 2 billion yearly, they have to be careful with their options. And besides we can deny,and probably would, that he was unarmed.

If Pakistan has a problem they can always declare war on us. Short of that it's not like they have any options. Even if they were to take a pathetic case to the UN (which we all know is a joke anyways) our veto power would stop it.

As for killing an unarmed man, POTUS authorized his assassination and therefore it is legal under US law.