Detroit (where have the people gone?)
It is possible that when the final numbers are tabulated, Detroit may just barely make one of the top 20 cities in the country.
Quote: teddysYes, Detroit has fallen from over 900,000 to around 700,000, I think. That is almost a 25% drop. Most declining citiies drop a percentage point or two a decade. I read that the mayor is challenging the census numbers. I don't think he's going to have much luck, however.
He will whine, cry, and eventually call the census count "racist" but I don't see success. He wants the higher number because Detroit just barely missed a cutoff for being a large city or something like that. Detroit needs to abandon parts of the city, even unincorporate them. The place is an urban wasteland.
Quote: 7outlineawayDetroit's not alone here. Check out St. Louis, Cleveland or Pittsburgh.
Is Detroit losing people in the Metro area just as bad or just the city? Here in Pittsburgh we have lost a lot of people in the metro area, yet we do not have the large abandoned areas Detroit seems to have.
Quote: AZDuffmanIs Detroit losing people in the Metro area just as bad or just the city? Here in Pittsburgh we have lost a lot of people in the metro area, yet we do not have the large abandoned areas Detroit seems to have.
Now, in this recession, the larger regions of Michigan are losing population. But traditionally since 1950 it was the city only.
Since 1950, Pittsburgh has lost -55% of it's population while Detroit has lost -61% of it's population. It's possible that it feels different since Detroit is a much larger area. Also I think demographics has a lot to do with it. While Pittsburgh is a majority white city, the drawdown in population means that there are less people in a house, but people don't desert whole neighborhoods. White flight (and now the increasing black flight) to the suburbs tends to leave a neighborhoods that people completely avoid, so no gentrification is possible.
The violent crime rate in Pittsburgh is high, but still lower than Philadelphia, and about half that of Detroit.
I think East St Louis has lost -67% of it's 1950 population and is the largest drop of any city in America.
The FBI cautions against ranking cities but,
Chester PA has the highest violent crime rate for a city over 25,000 (where the casino is located)
Saginaw MI has the highest violent crime rate for a city over 50,000
Camden NJ has the highest violent crime rate for a city over 75,000
Flint MI has the highest violent crime rate for a city over 100,000
St. Louis MO has the highest violent crime rate for a city over 300,000
Detroit MI has the highest violent crime rate for a city over 700,000
These are the cities with population over 100K with more than 1 violent crime per 100 people (in order). Boston and Pittsburgh just missed this group.
| St. Louis | Buffalo | Baton Rouge | Atlanta | Richmond | Worcester |
| Flint | Cleveland | Springfield | Nashville | Lansing | Gainesville |
| Detroit | St. Petersburg | Philadelphia | Houston | Knoxville | |
| Memphis | Rockford | Birmingham | Bridgeport | Columbia | |
| New Haven | Kansas City | Indianapolis | Toledo | Chattanooga | |
| Oakland | Hartford | Orlando | Tulsa | Elizabeth | |
| Baltimore | Stockton | Cincinnati | Minneapolis | Pompano Beach | |
| Little Rock | Washington | Miami | Milwaukee | Dayton |
Quote: pacomartin
Since 1950, Pittsburgh has lost -55% of it's population while Detroit has lost -61% of it's population. It's possible that it feels different since Detroit is a much larger area. Also I think demographics has a lot to do with it. While Pittsburgh is a majority white city, the drawdown in population means that there are less people in a house, but people don't desert whole neighborhoods. White flight (and now the increasing black flight) to the suburbs tends to leave a neighborhoods that people completely avoid, so no gentrification is possible.
The violent crime rate in Pittsburgh is high, but still lower than Philadelphia, and about half that of Detroit.
I think East St Louis has lost -67% of it's 1950 population and is the largest drop of any city in America.
Interesting take on the demographics. Pittsburgh also has no signifignt minorities other than blacks and no real immigrant neighborhoods. So you do not get that "pack a lot of folks into a house to start out" phenomenon you get some places. Ploitical enclaves could also come into play. Pittsburgh Metro is like the Holy Roman Empire with different cities, townships, boroughs, etc. Even with the decline they still manage to fill HS Football rosters. Go figure.
Youngstown, OH has the right idea and Detroit is now doing it. In emptying-out neighborhoods they are telling the last few families they need to move a few blocks over. Then they raze the whole block and tear up the street. Back to nature. In Philadelphia (I think) they were tearing down empty houses and giving the lots to a neighboring house if the owner had it occupied and in good shape. All good ideas, these cities are not going back to what they were.
Quote: AZDuffmanInteresting take on the demographics.
I don't think of it as a racist comment. My brother is in an interracial black-white marriage and lives in Atlanta. There are plenty of black majority cities that are doing quite well.
But a majority black slum neighborhood is one of the toughest nuts for any urban planner to crack. Nobody will move there, of any race or color even if houses are $1.
Quote: pacomartinI don't think of it as a racist comment. My brother is in an interracial black-white marriage and lives in Atlanta. There are plenty of black majority cities that are doing quite well.
But a majority black slum neighborhood is one of the toughest nuts for any urban planner to crack. Nobody will move there, of any race or color even if houses are $1.
Never said it was racist. You are right on the black-slum neighborhoods. Shows what happens when people just want the government to take care of them and everything else.
Quote: AZDuffmanDetroit needs to abandon parts of the city, even unincorporate them. The place is an urban wasteland.
For a long time the USA had a rural wasteland known as The Great American Desert. The Great American Desert now contains Las Vegas as well as a great deal of other very valuable real estate parcels.
Time perhaps for another Homestead Act? The banks in Paducah, KY passed an urban homesteading act several years ago. The banks held all these foreclosed upon properties that were largely crack houses or abandoned rat traps. So the banks went to the City and said start a program of vigorous code enforcement to force the poor out and we will sell twenty-five percent of the houses for one dollar to artists and homosexuals who will revitalize the neighborhood, the banks will then sell the remaining homes and pay back some of the city's expenses for code enforcement and evictions.
I'm not going to delve into race because I'm a pretty big racist and that tends to set a lot of people off before they even begin to hear me out. There are superior and inferior cultures, period. Multiculturalism has failed in the UK, France, and Germany - why try it out here?
Quote: ahiromuI have a facebook "friend" who is very involved with Michigan politics. A few years ago I got into the (conservative) college political scene and met a lot of people including this fellow. Currently the conservatives in Michigan are in a huge push to centralize the government because, long story short, there are an obnoxious amount of political seats per person there. In these circles it's pretty common for conservatives to use Detroit as the poster child to be anti-union and anti-democrat because the left has dominated Detroit politics for decades. Admittedly the fall of the car companies hasn't helped.
There is no shortage of democrat-dominated cities that are failing and without car companies to blame. Northeastern cities and states thought they could tax, spend, and regulate with their employer base unable to do anything about it. By the 1970s it was discovered you could hire people for less with less hassle in the south and no snow to boot. That Ohio was able to snag Honda years ago is still amazing, I doubt they would locate there again from scratch if they were looking now.
Quote: pacomartinThe FBI cautions against ranking cities but, . . . St. Louis MO has the highest violent crime rate for a city over 300,000
Just a quick side note here that's pertinent. St. Louis is a rarity because it is an independent city. Statistics for St. Louis are based solely on the city population, not the population of the entire metropolitan area. Thus, those statistics are based on a population of a little over 319,000, while the Greater St. Louis metro area (which includes the city, 8 Missouri counties, and 6 Illinois counties) is just under 2.9 Million.
So while the numbers are true for the city, they vastly overstate the situation for the entire area. Unfortunately, that never gets reported, so all people hear is that St. Louis is worst for violent crime, worst for Syphilis, worst for (insert category here). The mayor's office has a fit every time one of these rankings comes out, and always issues a rebuttal asking for a revision using the entire metro area's numbers.
Most other cities statistics are included in the county in which they are located. (Atlanta is in Fulton County, for example.)
It's not an apples vs oranges comparison, but more like comparing Granny Smiths to Gala apples.
Quote: EvenBobWhy all the interest in Detroit on this forum? I live in MI and nobody talks about it as much as you people do. We just try and pretend its not there.
Detroit is an interesting case study because at least from outsiders it's one of the most visible failed cities in our country. Why do people watch soaps or read the enquirer? Isn't it because it makes us feel better about ourselves and our situation? Also as previously mentioned, it's the poster child for conservatives when we like to blabber on and on about oversized government.
Quote: ahiromuDetroit is an interesting case study because at least from outsiders it's one of the most visible failed cities in our country. .
Take 50% of the jobs in any city away, and the same thing will happen. I knew two men when I was a kid who drove all the way to Detroit (1hr 40min one way) to make Ford trucks. No robots, no short cuts, just hard working Americans making American trucks.
Because it's a fascinating glimpse into the future of post-industrial urban America if we don't wise up and make some changes tout suite.Quote: EvenBobWhy all the interest in Detroit on this forum? I live in MI and nobody talks about it as much as you people do. We just try and pretend its not there.
Quote: teddysBecause it's a fascinating glimpse into the future of post-industrial urban America if we don't wise up and make some changes tout suite.
Detroit has always been a hole, if it disappeared nobody would care or notice. Flint isn't far behind. When I was in Flint a few years ago, there were bars on the windows and doors of every house on every street we were on. Even the basement windows had bars. I mean block after block of barred houses. It was astounding and appalling. You have to imprison yourself in your house because the crooks will break into any house that isn't barred. They think they belong in prison, thats where all their family and friends are.
Quote: EvenBobWhy all the interest in Detroit on this forum? I live in MI and nobody talks about it as much as you people do. We just try and pretend its not there.
Yes, it is a poster child. Urban planning, racial politics in America, post industrialism, violent crime you name it. When things went awash, the first thing you saw in the papers was "Is Vegas the Next Detroit".
The "Gold Coast" is also a poster child, as is Atlanta, just like South Beach is one for Latinos.
Quote: NEIL A. LEWIS
The Shifting 'Gold Coast'
By NEIL A. LEWIS, Special to the New York Times
Published: May 19, 1985
WASHINGTON, May 18— For more than two decades, Washington's black elite lived in an enclave in the Northwest corner of the city. If one was a doctor, lawyer, senior Government official or connected to Howard University, one hoped to or was even expected to live in ''the Gold Coast.'' The name, given to the area by the blacks who lived there, suggested both wealth and an African heritage. It also contained a whiff of irony or perhaps whimsy since the namesake Gold Coast in West Africa was the center of the slave trade in the 19th century. The area, which is centered around 16th Street about three miles north of the White House, still has much of the same character today as it has had over the years, with its expensive and well-kept homes. But it has lost some cachet as the most desirable location as black professionals now live throughout the metropolitan area, having settled comfortably in suburbs as well as ...
Old Maids Never Wed And Have Babies: (Overbrook, Merion, Narberth, Wynnewood, Ardmore, Haverford, Bryn Mawr.) are the five cities just outside of Philadelphia on the The Main Line that are all about a mile apart. You say Main Line when you want to talk about old white money (as in Katherine Hepburn and the Philadelphia story).
Time to (ahem) call a spade a spade.
Quote: EvenBobI knew two men when I was a kid who drove all the way to Detroit (1hr 40min one way) to make Ford trucks. No robots, no short cuts, just hard working Americans making American trucks.
Yeah, that must've been way back when American vehicles were crap. No wonder we lost the market to the Japanese. No wonder Detroit dried up. No wonder we lost so many brands lately like Plymouth, AMC, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Mercury, Saturn, etc. I don't see Euro brands going belly up, and some Asian brands are flourishing like Kia and Hyundai. You can blame the current economy, but that doesn't explain why generations of Americans are boycotting the local brands because they've sucked for so long.
Quote: zippyboyYeah, that must've been way back when American vehicles were crap..
Noooo, it was the early 60's when American cars were the envy of the world. It wasn't until the 80's that they became crap.
Quote: zippyboyAnd btw, pacomartin, where does Las Vegas fit in to your crime stats? Didn't see it on your list.
I put the cities with population over 100K with more than 1 violent crime per 100 people (in order). Boston and Pittsburgh just missed this group.
There is almost 300 cities with population over 100K. Illinois was missing from the UCR at the FBI. The FBI will not rank the data and cautions strongly against it.
Here is the rank of the cities with population over 500K by violent crime. Chicago data was not available.
| Detroit | Las Vegas Metro Police Dep | Louisville Metro |
| Memphis | Oklahoma City | Fort Worth |
| Baltimore | Jacksonville | Denver |
| Washington | Dallas | San Antonio |
| Philadelphia | Albuquerque | Portland |
| Indianapolis | San Francisco | New York |
| Atlanta | Charlotte-Mecklenburg | Phoenix |
| Nashville | Columbus | Austin |
| Houston | Tucson | El Paso |
| Milwaukee | Seattle | San Diego |
| Boston | Los Angeles | San Jose |
| Honolulu |
Philadelphia merged the city and county in 1855, which I believe that the first place to do that in the USA. Baltimore has always been independent of Baltimore county since day one.
Indianapolis is also a merger of city and unincorporated places in the county (in 1970). The pre-merger city has most of the violent crime. It would probably rank much lower if nonviolent crime were included.
Houston is a large city by geography, but it has one of the youngest populations in the USA, by virtue of it's massive legal and illegal immigration. Younger people are much more apt to commit violent crime.
San Jose should replace Detroit as our 10th city with a million people. I don't know if the census released official data on California yet.
I don't believe that El Paso is that low. Across the river is easily the most violent place in North America.
But crime data and ranking is very questionable. I don't pretend that I am making an analysis here, just dividing violent crime by population. As Honolulu is not incorporated, I don't know where there boundaries are located.
Quote: FBI Caution Against RankingEach year when Crime in the United States is published, some entities use reported figures to compile rankings of cities and counties. These rough rankings provide no insight into the numerous variables that mold crime in a particular town, city, county, state, or region. Consequently, they lead to simplistic and/or incomplete analyses that often create misleading perceptions adversely affecting communities and their residents. Valid assessments are possible only with careful study and analysis of the range of unique conditions affecting each local law enforcement jurisdiction. The data user is, therefore, cautioned against comparing statistical data of individual reporting units from cities, metropolitan areas, states, or colleges or universities solely on the basis of their population coverage or student enrollment.
Quote: EvenBobWhy all the interest in Detroit on this forum? I live in MI and nobody talks about it as much as you people do. We just try and pretend its not there.
Cos the Redwings and the Lions and the Tigers play there.
Apart from that, I have no interest in the city. I'm actually waiting to see which of the Major League teams is first to leave the city.
Quote: MrV
Time to (ahem) call a spade a spade.
It must have been them to ruin the city. The sheer genius of the management of the US auto industry had no hope against them.
One of them the other day refused to step of the sidewalk as I passed. The insolence.
Quote: AZDuffmanIs Detroit losing people in the Metro area just as bad or just the city? Here in Pittsburgh we have lost a lot of people in the metro area, yet we do not have the large abandoned areas Detroit seems to have.
According to the 2009 estimate, the Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI area lost 1/2% since 2000, while Pittsburgh-New Castle, PA area lost 3%. Final numbers for the 2010 census for metropolitan areas will be released pending complaints. Clearly the city of Detroit will complain.
I think only Michigan went down in population on a statewide level.
Census map of detroit showing black (blue dot) and white (red dot) populations.
Quote:(The amount of support for the perenially sucky Lions is absolutely mind-boggling).
This year, my friend, this year...
Quote: pacomartinDetroit was our 4th largest city in 1920,1930, 1940 and 5th largest city in 1950, 1960, and 1970. The latest census numbers says one in four people have left since the year 2000. The census bureau completely underestimated the loss.
They all moved to Vegas and, boy, are they sorry.
Quote: thecesspitCos the Redwings and the Lions and the Tigers play there.
Also, it has casinos. I believe it is the largest city in the country with full-service casinos, in fact. (Philly and Chicago have no casinos within the city limits, and Arizona doesn't have all table games, ruling out Phoenix.) The last time I was in Detroit was to gamble.
Quote: pacomartinI don't believe that El Paso is that low. Across the river is easily the most violent place in North America.
I suspect El Paso has an unusually high amount of unreported crime, as illegals (or legals protecting them) are unlikely to go to the police for help. Also, almost the entire populated area is within city limits, so it gets to include the nicer parts where people don't commit crimes.
BTW, Denver and San Francisco are also consolidated with their respective counties.
Hispanic (Mexicantown).Quote: thecesspitWhat are the orange dots?
Quote: teddysYes, the Detroit metropolitan area is still HUGE and has some of the nicest surburban areas you will find anywhere in the country. The distinction between the suburbs and the city is as stark as you will see anywhere.
Who cares? The majority of visitors to this country's cities don't look at suburbia. The fact remains that this city's core is rotten, it's streets are mean and reflective of a recession, and there's nothing that makes you feel safe about it.
Quote: MrVTwo words: "White Flight."
Time to (ahem) call a spade a spade.
MrV, please try to say something a little more profound. Everyone who has lived in America in the last 80 years know about "white flight", which is followed by "black flight" as certain older urban cores have been abandoned. Your statement means nothing.
The quotation is from the Early Greeks, thousands of years before the word acquired any racist connotations.
Quote: pacomartin... The quotation is from the Early Greeks, thousands of years before the word acquired any racist connotations.
I am reminded of the story of a convent that was undergoing some reconstruction. One of the young sisters was upset by the coarse language used by some of the hired workmen. She went to express her concerns to the Mother Superior, who said to her, "My dear, they are just common folk who work very hard. Based on everything that happens in their lives, they just call a spade a spade." The young woman replied, "Oh no, Mother, they don't! They call it a f**king shovel!"
Quote: 7outlineawayAlso, it has casinos. I believe it is the largest city in the country with full-service casinos, in fact. .
I go there for the casinos, thats all. There's never any trouble because the casinos have their own little police force. We stayed in an old luxury hotel nearby a couple years ago. Huge rooms. It was 90% Black guests, and it was the polar opposite of Sanford and Son. It was an eye opening experience. It was winter and I've never seen so many full length mink coats and so much jewelry and so many Armani suits in one place. The hotel was retro 40's and it was like being in another time and place.
Quote: 7outlineawayPhilly and Chicago have no casinos within the city limits.
Where do you think the Sugar House is?
Quote: 7outlineawayAlso, it has casinos. I believe it is the largest city in the country with full-service casinos, in fact. (Philly and Chicago have no casinos within the city limits, and Arizona doesn't have all table games, ruling out Phoenix.) The last time I was in Detroit was to gamble.
That probably was true until Sugar House opened in September. Sugar House is earning far below Chester, and Parx so far. Parx is only a few miles outside of the city limits. Chester is the highest rate of violent crime in PA . Aqueduct race track will introduce slots which will probably be the most heavily used in the country since you can get there by subway.
The success of the Singapore Marina Sands will probably get more large cities excited about the idea of showpiece casino. I can see Los Angeles building one.
Quote: SanchoPanzaWhere do you think the Sugar House is?
Just for future reference, the more helpful, polite way to reply is the way pacomartin did.
Quote: pacomartinMrV, please try to say something a little more profound.
Whitus, ergo flee.
Quote: MrVYou want profundity, do you?
Start with substance. Profundity may be a bit away.
Quote: zippyboyMrV must stand for Mister Vacuous.
I'll save him the Google time.
vac·u·ous [vak-yoo-uhs]
–adjective
1. without contents; empty: the vacuous air.
2. lacking in ideas or intelligence: a vacuous mind.
3. expressing or characterized by a lack of ideas or intelligence; inane; stupid: a vacuous book.
Quote:Detroit officials will learn today whether Michigan’s largest city can stay in bankruptcy, allowing a federal judge to referee all of its battles with creditors owed about $18 billion.
U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Steven Rhodes in Detroit said last week he would decide at a hearing today on the city’s request to remain under court protection. Without it, Detroit may be forced to defend a wave of lawsuits in multiple courts over the gap between the city’s revenue and the amount it owes.
Any bets on which way it's going?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-03/detroit-to-learn-if-crisis-to-be-handled-in-bankruptcy.html
