Poll

8 votes (25.8%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (6.45%)
No votes (0%)
20 votes (64.51%)
1 vote (3.22%)

31 members have voted

RonDiaz
RonDiaz
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March 10th, 2011 at 10:33:02 AM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

One can't help but wonder how much of the protests were organic and how much of it was "astroturf." I think the original protests were organic, but when out-of-staters got involved, including Obama's organization, it got both hijacked and ugly. I don't think that's going to influence anybody with an actual WI vote. For the same reasons, any recall efforts will probably fall flat since they're also "astroturf," imposed in large part by the same outsiders who have spent the last three weeks giving the WI populace tired-head.



You don't have to wonder. I've been there. These people by the vast vast majority are from Wisconsin. These are not your standard protesters and activists. They are just citizens of Wisconsin. Yes there is out of state money flowing in ON BOTH SIDES, but the idea that these protests are anything but Wisconsin is purely false.

How does removing $11 million dollars a year from the economy of my county alone NOT close businesses?

Yes the contributions are low, but so are the salaries. I could detail it all but it will just turn into more of the same back and forth.

I will totally concede that our health care plan is too generous. I've been saying that since day one of my employment with WI. Personally that is where I would have liked to see some retooling. Rather than raise our contributions, retool the plan to be more balanced. The union and non-union folks alike made a grave error in taking minimal raises year after year after year (1-2% tops) in exchange for maintaining a high level of benefits. Now it looks bad and it's an easy thing to say that we get some sort of sweetheart deal, it's false, but it's an easy thing to say.

As for the insult bits "it's on me"? That is laughable. You insult me then say it's on me.
RonDiaz
RonDiaz
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March 10th, 2011 at 10:34:53 AM permalink
Quote: Calder

The repair bill is not the biennial budget for 2011-13. Among other things, the repair bill was needed to pay off the remaining deficit from the 2009-11 budget due to revenue shortfalls. That's distinct from the $3.6 billion structural deficit that has to be eliminated in the '11-'13 budget bill.

Ron, I may agree with your two-tier representation of Wisconsin workers. Those in the first tier have free state pensions, free health insurance, and may retire in their 50s. The second tier must save for their own retirement, pay their own health insurance premiums, and retire at 67; they also pay taxes to support the first tier.

The average total compensation for Milwaukee Public School teachers topped $100,000 this year. The insurance provided to most teachers is through a company administered by...the teachers union. It's that sort of stuff that's assured through collective bargaining. Unless you do away with collective bargaining for benefit packages, the state and local governments will never be able to control spending.

Employees will be able to bargain for wages, something federal union employees are not allowed to do.



I don't have a free pension, free health insurance, nor will I be able to retire in my 50s. It's just false.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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March 10th, 2011 at 10:41:45 AM permalink
If the salary and benefits eventually offered lag behind the equivalent work in the private sector or surrounding states, then market forces will result in a need to raise either the wages or benefits to be competitive. Just like in the private sector. IBM does not want to pay a skilled engineer 200k per year, but if that is what Intel will pay then IBM will have to pay it or not have the worker. But as I stated earlier, it is not the union's fault that they have 'sweetheart deals', they were negotiated with elected representatives on the other side of the table. Many times the unions accepted lower wages in exchange for the enhanced benefits. The people responsible should pay the price. Oh wait, they have... they have been voted out of office.
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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March 10th, 2011 at 10:48:44 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

You don't have to wonder. I've been there. These people by the vast vast majority are from Wisconsin. These are not your standard protesters and activists. They are just citizens of Wisconsin. Yes there is out of state money flowing in ON BOTH SIDES, but the idea that these protests are anything but Wisconsin is purely false.



I don't think any news agency is reporting that, and I've seen interviews where someone says something like, yeah, I came on a bus from <wherever>, more than one. It's *possible* there was only one bus and only people from that particular bus were interviewed, but I don't think it's likely.

Quote: RonDiaz

How does removing $11 million dollars a year from the economy of my county alone NOT close businesses?



I think this is a philosophical difference. $11 million won't be removed from the economy; it will be removed from government use (which is not productive) and left in the hands of the private sector. So ... nothing is lost to the economy. I think that the SAME $11 million is more economically productive in the hands of the private sector than in the hands of the government.

Quote: RonDiaz

Yes the contributions are low, but so are the salaries. I could detail it all but it will just turn into more of the same back and forth.

I will totally concede that our health care plan is too generous. I've been saying that since day one of my employment with WI. Personally that is where I would have liked to see some retooling. Rather than raise our contributions, retool the plan to be more balanced. The union and non-union folks alike made a grave error in taking minimal raises year after year after year (1-2% tops) in exchange for maintaining a high level of benefits. Now it looks bad and it's an easy thing to say that we get some sort of sweetheart deal, it's false, but it's an easy thing to say.



Why didn't you say you were a state worker from the beginning? If your self-interest is at stake, then why you're angry makes a helluva lot of sense. But that doesn't mean the rest of the populace shares your anger. You've (self-admittedly) known that your health care plan is "too generous." I would go further and say other parts of your overall comp are "too generous". I also know, and I think everyone else does, that WI is facing huge deficits and debt. Hence, the current WI congress.

You're simply on the wrong side of the issue. No big deal, it happens. And yeah, you did get a sweetheart deal. But those days are, evidently, over because there's no money. Welcome to the world of "tightening your belt, not just retooling."

Quote: RonDiaz

As for the insult bits "it's on me"? That is laughable. You insult me then say it's on me.



Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

I'm not sure what you don't understand about the election results.



Not an insult. Yup, it's on you.
Calder
Calder
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March 10th, 2011 at 11:48:19 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

I don't have a free pension, free health insurance, nor will I be able to retire in my 50s. It's just false.


According to the Wisconsin Dept. of Employee Trust Funds, which "covers employees of the State of Wisconsin and employees of local government employers who elect to participate, and Milwaukee Public School District teachers" the minimum retirement age is 55, 50 for protective services.

[edit]

With regard to pension contributions and health insurance, that is up to the local governments. The pension contribution is often paid by the locality, instead of the employee. That contribution is bargained, another reason collective bargaining needs to be curtailed.
thecesspit
thecesspit
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March 10th, 2011 at 12:58:58 PM permalink
A minimum retirement age is a very different thing... I have had one in both public and private company pensions. I could retire at 50, but the benefits have been three-fifths of nothing at that age.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
rxwine
rxwine
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March 10th, 2011 at 2:48:48 PM permalink
I'll only be suprised if collective bargaining becomes a non-issue as elections roll around. Getting rid of it hasn't polled well. Union membership has dropped a lot over the years, but like an emergency brake, you find out you need something when you don't have it. Unions, state worker or otherwise are going to stay together or hang together.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 10th, 2011 at 4:54:55 PM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

How does removing $11 million dollars a year from the economy of my county alone NOT close businesses?



By not having to raise taxes over a billion to make up for the shortfall. Although the astroturf rent-a-mob dollars supporting local hotels and such may hurt in the short term.

What I am suprised is no news outlet is mentioning this as the positive effect of democrats losing elections down the ticket last fall. Harry Reid kept his job, but lots of control in statehouses flipped. As to your other comment about people throwing the GOP out, I doubt it. People who are not state workers getting lavish contracts will not have this as a high issue. And the Union will have to collect their own dues and actually service their members or be voted out annually. Less time to be foot soldiers in the next election.

Think the deer hunter is going to vote for the union that supports the party that wants to ban guns?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
rxwine
rxwine
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March 10th, 2011 at 5:37:23 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Think the deer hunter is going to vote for the union that supports the party that wants to ban guns?



That's one issue voting. (and there's blue dog democrats) And also like gays did't vote for Obama because of his original stated stance on gay marriage, for instance. Because they did.

Walker is not Reagan, any more than if Kerry did the exact things as Obama or Clinton, he'd ever muster the same amount of votes. Walker has no X-factor as they say on the popular front.

Just because you run on a platform doesn't mean everyone supports every implentation or idea of it in action.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 10th, 2011 at 5:46:30 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

That's one issue voting. (and there's blue dog democrats) And also like gays did't vote for Obama because of his original stated stance on gay marriage, for instance. Because they did.

Walker is not Reagan, any more than if Kerry did the exact things as Obama or Clinton, he'd ever muster the same amount of votes. Walker has no X-factor as they say on the popular front.

Just because you run on a platform doesn't mean everyone supports every implentation or idea of it in action.



Collective bargaining is also merely one issue. And I feel it will not be important to many swing voters, astroturfed demonstrations or not.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
rxwine
rxwine
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March 10th, 2011 at 5:49:10 PM permalink
...additionally, I think the argument that dealing with unions, doesn't factor in leverage you will likely have in a downturned economy when you'll expect them to make concessions, and likely will succeed..
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
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