Poll

8 votes (25.8%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (6.45%)
No votes (0%)
20 votes (64.51%)
1 vote (3.22%)

31 members have voted

ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 23rd, 2011 at 12:17:43 PM permalink
I know that political perspectives are far greater than five, but just vote for the one that's closest to the opinion you hold.

Personally, I voted NO! I think it's an obstruction of democracy. Yes, the people elected the 14 Democrats, but they also elected the 19 Republicans and the Republican governor. The Dems should vote their conscience, lose, and try again in future elections. Squirrelling away like roaches is bullshit.
SOOPOO
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February 23rd, 2011 at 12:32:36 PM permalink
I find this to be an easy one. The Wisconsin representatives were all voted in to consider bills, and then vote yeah or nay. The people did not vote for them to go and hide if they do not like a bill proposed. I am wondering who paid for the bus that took them into hiding across state lines? I am wondering if they were using vacation days or they just feel they can not do the job they are being paid for because they are above any scrutiny? I like the way ItsCalledSoccer phrased it.
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 23rd, 2011 at 12:37:47 PM permalink
A few years ago in Texas, the Dems in the state house did something similar, hiding out in Oklahoma and New Mexico to avoid a vote on redistricting. The governor's solution to get them back was to freeze their state credit cards and dock them their pay for the days they were gone.

The Dems returned less than two days after that and the redistricting passed. In other words, they would only "fight the good fight" on the taxpayer's dime.
cellardoor
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February 23rd, 2011 at 12:46:43 PM permalink
I hail from WI and only within the last 3 years moved out of the state, but visit very often. My very conservative father has his obvious view points and has been having facebook debates with his friends for well over a week about this so I've been exposed to both sides rhetoric. I mostly lean towards the liberal side except for most fiscal issues. I've been taking a great interest in this as it will affect a lot of close friends including my brother who will be getting his teaching license this spring when he graduates.

Regardless of your political leanings, I think most should agree this is an absolute cry-baby move and does nothing to promote democracy. Jon Stewart, on I think Monday's show, had a good line about the Democratic legislators. He said something to the effect of how the phrase 'when the going gets tough, the tough gets going' should not be taken literally.
s2dbaker
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February 23rd, 2011 at 12:51:15 PM permalink
Someone definately paid for a bus to take them across state lines because they are too dumb to think of driving their own cars! Stupid Democrats! They were probably too stupid to read for themselves in the Wisconsin Constitution that they have the right to deny the Wisconsin Senate a quorum. Stupid Democrats! They probably think that they are representing their constituent's interests by preventing the public employee's union from being eviscerated. Stupid Democrats!
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
FleaStiff
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February 23rd, 2011 at 12:59:53 PM permalink
Kings and governors have always convened legislatures at inopportune times and places.

In NY state its easy. If the governor calls the legislature back into session, the state police just go down the free way stopping limousines with legislator plates and forcibly bringing the legislators back to Albany. If any legislator makes it across a state line though, he is home free.

Duty to vote? Thats like prohibiting a filibuster in the Senate. Reading the Washington phonebook into the Congressional record was boring but it prevented a vote. Most "quorum calls" are so prolonged that one the 'here' is uttered, the Senator or Congressman leaves.

Now as to the real issues involved: its an attempt to break the preferred status that certain occupations have in cranking up the budgets. Police, fire, teachers, nurses, etc. .. It is what GM should have done decades ago to avoid their bankruptcy-inducing medical care bills. Cities in California are facing real problems. Illinois is in bad shape but a state can't go bankrupt. San Diego, CA has huge unfunded pension obligations and some of the retirees not only took amazing pension rights with them, they even took the pension funds with them to make sure they got paid.

The Governor of California tried to do this thru more legitimate political means but he failed since all the unions fought him tooth and nail. Now I don't know about the underlying fairness involved. I've never thought fairness and politics were compatible. Is it more fair to pay a huge pension to cop or a huge medical bill for a prison inmate? Unfunded liability means unfunded liability. It doesn't limit itself to a morally justifiable and admirably created liability. A double and triple dipper is owed the money just as much as a single dipper. Heck, the politicians often have two pensions but the Union Business Agents often retire with four or five pensions.

Should we vote funds for an Easter Egg Hunt in white middle-class suburbia but then deny funds for powdered eggs in the inner city schools because of budget limitations? What happens when the legislators want to leave the state when that vote comes up?
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 23rd, 2011 at 1:28:01 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Someone definately paid for a bus to take them across state lines because they are too dumb to think of driving their own cars! Stupid Democrats! They were probably too stupid to read for themselves in the Wisconsin Constitution that they have the right to deny the Wisconsin Senate a quorum. Stupid Democrats! They probably think that they are representing their constituent's interests by preventing the public employee's union from being eviscerated. Stupid Democrats!



Interesting ... can you provide the text of this where it says, "senators have a RIGHT to DENY a quorum"?
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 23rd, 2011 at 1:53:36 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Someone definately paid for a bus to take them across state lines because they are too dumb to think of driving their own cars! Stupid Democrats! They were probably too stupid to read for themselves in the Wisconsin Constitution that they have the right to deny the Wisconsin Senate a quorum. Stupid Democrats! They probably think that they are representing their constituent's interests by preventing the public employee's union from being eviscerated. Stupid Democrats!



They're not there. They're not "representing" anyone right now. If they would show up and debate the issue in the public forum, that would be "representing."
s2dbaker
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February 23rd, 2011 at 2:35:24 PM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

Quote: s2dbaker

Someone definately paid for a bus to take them across state lines because they are too dumb to think of driving their own cars! Stupid Democrats! They were probably too stupid to read for themselves in the Wisconsin Constitution that they have the right to deny the Wisconsin Senate a quorum. Stupid Democrats! They probably think that they are representing their constituent's interests by preventing the public employee's union from being eviscerated. Stupid Democrats!



Interesting ... can you provide the text of this where it says, "senators have a RIGHT to DENY a quorum"?

Why would I want to do that, I'm agreeing with you that those Democrats are stupid!

But before we go though with this Kabuki dance on a forum dedicated to gambling, do you believe that the United States Constitution says a woman has a right to an abortrtion?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 23rd, 2011 at 2:57:17 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Why would I want to do that, I'm agreeing with you that those Democrats are stupid!

But before we go though with this Kabuki dance on a forum dedicated to gambling, do you believe that the United States Constitution says a woman has a right to an abortrtion?



Tell you what ... start another thread on "do you believe ..." and I'll decide whether or not to post there.

I read a large dose of sarcasm in your original post, along with phraseology such as ...

Quote: s2dbaker

They probably think that they are representing their constituent's interests by preventing the public employee's union from being eviscerated.



... that made me think the entire post was meant to be ironic. Only one side views the "debate" as "preventing union from being eviscerated." Guess it wasn't meant to be sarcastic, then ... oh well.
s2dbaker
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February 23rd, 2011 at 3:28:26 PM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

Only one side views the "debate" as "preventing union from being eviscerated."

In a phone call to (a fake) David Koch, Governor Walker admitted that all this was about busting up the unions. He even compared himself to Ronald Reagan when the air traffic controller's union was busted up in the 1980s. Both sides agree that this is nothing more than a way to bust up the unions.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
RonC
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February 23rd, 2011 at 4:05:47 PM permalink
It is interesting that the new media was all over "civility," and blaming the right wing for the lack of it, when the incident in Arizona happened. Somehow that was partially blamed on conservatives before any of the facts were in and that view prevailed in the media well after the truth of the incident came out. Now the liberals are carrying signs accusing the Governor of being "Hitler" and talk about bloodshed in some instances. The media is not nearly all over those stories so far...

Why is it wrong for the Koch brothers to support conservative positions but okay for Soros to support liberal ones? There is a lot of money from both sides coming from billionaires.

I think the Democrats are wrong. The election was held; they lost. Some of the bills passed over the last couple of years by the United States Congress were passed by Democrats in spite of Republican opposition. The media was quick to call the Republicans the party of "no" when their votes hardly mattered in the outcome. The Democrats won the elections in 2008; elections have consequences. The Wisconsin Democrats should go back to work.
SOOPOO
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February 23rd, 2011 at 4:11:55 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

In a phone call to (a fake) David Koch, Governor Walker admitted that all this was about busting up the unions. He even compared himself to Ronald Reagan when the air traffic controller's union was busted up in the 1980s. Both sides agree that this is nothing more than a way to bust up the unions.



Ok. Let's assume what you just wrote is true. It is also irrelevant. The PEOPLE of Wisconsin voted in the governor. They voted in the representatives. They expect the elected to vote on proposed legislation, not run away to a different state to avoid such. Do you think any of these Democrats would have said on the campaign trail.. "And if the Republicans want to do anyrthing bad I will go and hide so they can't. Aren't I smart!" As Republican and fiscally conservative as I am, I too am AGAINST what the governor proposes. But if he has enough votes to have it pass, then it should. If the people of Wisconsin are unhappy with the results, then they can vote out the governor and the Republican representatives. The fact that the teachers are willing to let schools close while they fraudulently call in sick leads me to believe that I know who the people will side with.
rxwine
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February 23rd, 2011 at 4:14:47 PM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

They're not "representing" anyone right now. If they would show up and debate the issue in the public forum, that would be "representing."



But wouldn't that be up to their constituency to decide? Or at least a combination of that and legislative rules (or loopholes, as the case may be). They don't represent all the voters, just their district.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
punkinhead
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February 23rd, 2011 at 4:21:34 PM permalink
Long time lurker,first time poster. The Libocrats are elected officials, the state of cheese should arrest these POS's and throw them out of their jobs ASAP. The runaway thing hasn't worked since preschool. Growup, take your lumps,the voters have spoken!! Soopoo, the unions have leaked off hundreds of thousands of jobs since NAFTAwas approved. Scabs work alongside union workers every day for a third of the pay.The unions are already broken. They are antiquated and powerless.
FleaStiff
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February 23rd, 2011 at 4:26:42 PM permalink
Doing the right thing?
Or doing it in the right manner?

What are they doing? They are attacking a growing problem of excessively high entitlements to an identifiable segment of the population that uses union pressures to force already bloated budgets even higher, already high salaries even higher and already staggering, but unfunded, pension obligations higher.
So yes, I would say they are doing the right thing in attacking cops, teachers, nurses and librarians and their various unions in an attempt to end the skewed political pressures and resultant skewed budgetary demands on the taxpayer.

I think the question more relates to the manner in which the problem is being tackled.

Would anyone be objecting to this if the attack was on unionized welfare recipients or unionized defendants in the criminal court system?
SOOPOO
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February 23rd, 2011 at 4:30:55 PM permalink
Flea- you have it backwards. The question is asking if the Wisconsin Dems who are BLOCKING the move by the governor are doing the right thing. Also, I believe the police and fire unions would be exempt from these new rules.
rxwine
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February 23rd, 2011 at 4:53:18 PM permalink
What I'd rather see instead of this, is a measure to force all collective bargaining in front of an open public forum.

You could put the proposed state budget on the wall -- then let everyone argue over what share they deserve.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
FleaStiff
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February 23rd, 2011 at 4:57:06 PM permalink
New England Town Meetings used to do that ... and every single item was a separate line item.
Also expenditures were by function: a box of paperclips for one program was a separate purchase order than a box of paper clips for another program.
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 23rd, 2011 at 7:57:11 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

In a phone call to (a fake) David Koch, Governor Walker admitted that all this was about busting up the unions. He even compared himself to Ronald Reagan when the air traffic controller's union was busted up in the 1980s. Both sides agree that this is nothing more than a way to bust up the unions.



That's not the read I'm getting at all. The entirety of the call is widely available, and I didn't hear that once. Also, the proposal only eliminates collective bargaining for state employee unions. The unions will still be there, and collective bargaining will still be there for private-sector unions.

Besides, non-union taxpayers get a voice, too.

I thought your first post was meant to be sarcastic ... if you have the view that the Dem senators are fighting the good fight, that's fine, just say it. Why earn a reputation as someone who intentionally lies and deceives?
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 23rd, 2011 at 8:03:42 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

But wouldn't that be up to their constituency to decide? Or at least a combination of that and legislative rules (or loopholes, as the case may be). They don't represent all the voters, just their district.



Whatever absence is, it's not representing. They *might* be doing something resembling the will of the voters who elected them, but while I haven't researched any of their campaigns, I'm pretty sure that none of them ran on a platform of "running away."

Their constituencies will decide again soon, as they will with all of the WI state house. But last election, constituencies decided to turn over 5 WI seats to Republicans as well as the governorship. Why should that election be lessened in this way?
AZDuffman
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February 24th, 2011 at 4:14:42 AM permalink
The WI dems are in the wrong here and I would like to see the govenor start docking their pay or/and somehow otherwise upping the pressure on them. The way I understand it, the next few weeks are critical and they are playing a game of chicken with the govenor as the state will lose something like $165MM in preferred financing if there is no budget. It would be funny if the state did lose it and just told the dems, "Now you have to cut something else!" like you tell a child he cannot play with the toy he just broke after you told the child what he did would break it.

One of the big "hidden" issues is forcing the union to collect its own dues. IMHO that is responsible fo much of the other unions throwing in so hard. Members who are tired of incompotent union stewards; tired of relatives of union presidents giving nice, easy receptionist jobs to friends/relatives; and tired of their duse supporting politics they dislike will soon be able to tell the union to piss off.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
FleaStiff
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February 24th, 2011 at 4:34:57 AM permalink
Management always want to force unions to collect their own dues. Its not just the administrative burdens involved but also a way to force union members to question the wisdom of making such payments and forcing the union to deal with deadbeats and free-loaders. Here the continued absence is no different than engaging in a fillibuster. Its an attempt to maintain a lack of a quorum.

If the state fails to have a budget, the governor is not required to issue IOUs or other chits for state salaries. The state treasurer is unable to issue warrants based on non-existent funds. However, a legislator remaining absent in order to prevent the existence of a quorum is a time honored tactic.

The state budget issue is not the real issue here. The real issue is the attack on the sacred cows.
boymimbo
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February 24th, 2011 at 6:22:47 AM permalink
The democrats in Wisconsin are simply taking advantage of a loophole in a law to avoid a vote. Unfortunately, while it's completely morally wrong to do so, they are legally able to do so. That said, if what they are doing is illegal, then throw the book at them or do whatever you can to bring them in. If what they are doing is not illegal, write up and pass a law that does not allow legislators to strike.

Filibusters are available to delay passage of bills in the Senate.

Absolutely, the politicians are acting like children. What else is new?
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ItsCalledSoccer
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February 24th, 2011 at 6:48:16 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

The WI dems are in the wrong here and I would like to see the govenor start docking their pay or/and somehow otherwise upping the pressure on them. The way I understand it, the next few weeks are critical and they are playing a game of chicken with the govenor as the state will lose something like $165MM in preferred financing if there is no budget. It would be funny if the state did lose it and just told the dems, "Now you have to cut something else!" like you tell a child he cannot play with the toy he just broke after you told the child what he did would break it.

One of the big "hidden" issues is forcing the union to collect its own dues. IMHO that is responsible fo much of the other unions throwing in so hard. Members who are tired of incompotent union stewards; tired of relatives of union presidents giving nice, easy receptionist jobs to friends/relatives; and tired of their duse supporting politics they dislike will soon be able to tell the union to piss off.



I've heard a lot of analysis on this. It generally goes ...

* a worker MUST MUST MUST join a union
* the worker MUST MUST MUST pay union dues
* the union leadership uses the dues, in large part, to contribute to political candidates, the overwhelming majority of which are Democrats
* the Democrats use their political position to "protect" the existence of the status quo

Now, I don't think it's quite that simple, but it does add up according to what we're observing:

* UNANIMITY among elected Democrats in union states to the point of weird Beijing-opening-ceremony levels, all the way to the President himself
* Unions do contribute the vast majority of their political contributions to Democrats
* workers HAVE to join unions and they HAVE to pay dues
* about 3/4 of Obama-stimulus (as opposed to Bush-stimulus) dollars going to WI went to state employee unions

The general analysis seems to assign pretty bad motives to union leaders and elected Democrats, which I am slow to do, but it does add up. IMHO, fleeing the state means the Democrats are not negotiating in good faith, and that, in my mind, allows the Republicans to come down as hard as they want to on them.

FWIW, I also think Obamacare was negotiated in bad faith by the Democrats ... midnight sessions, rule-breaking, not one single Republican vote in either house. Look what happened to them at the ballot box on Nov 2. I think, if the Dems keep doing stuff like this, they're going to become a minority in the 35%-40% range. But that's just an opinion.
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 24th, 2011 at 6:53:52 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

The democrats in Wisconsin are simply taking advantage of a loophole in a law to avoid a vote. Unfortunately, while it's completely morally wrong to do so, they are legally able to do so. That said, if what they are doing is illegal, then throw the book at them or do whatever you can to bring them in. If what they are doing is not illegal, write up and pass a law that does not allow legislators to strike.

Filibusters are available to delay passage of bills in the Senate.

Absolutely, the politicians are acting like children. What else is new?



Yeah, there's no doubt that the Dems *can* do that, but I also think there's no doubt that episodes such as this were not contemplated when the filibuster was invented. I think the only way out is for the electorate to give the Republicans supermajorities.

For example, 23 senate seats coming up in 2012 are held by Dems or Independents who caucus with Dems. The Reps hold 47 seats right now. If the Reps win 13 seats, it's a supermajority, filibuster-proof. (Veto-proof would probably not be needed; any landslide of that magnitude would certainly mean Obama loses.)

In 2010, Dems lost (I think) 42% of the senate seats they defended. Applying the same percentage projects a 10-seat turnover, or 57 seats in the senate. Not enough, so the problems would continue like they did in 2004-2006 when the Reps had a 55-seat majority.

We'll see how the electorate reacts, I guess ...
boymimbo
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February 24th, 2011 at 7:28:52 AM permalink
Agreed. Alot can happen in a year and a half. I'm very disappointed with Obama as well (I'm Canadian, can't vote for him) because he's all about spending and is too afraid to raise taxes to pay for it. One direct example is the the social security tax which he reduced to 4.2 percent this year from 6.2 percent for employees without reducing future beneifts. This in effect gives every American earning less than $106,800 a 2 percent pay hike and puts up to $2,136 into every worker's pocket. Stupid. So, this year, there will be a 16 percent reduction in contributions while beneifts don't change. Dumb.

I was looking at the federal marginal tax rates, which is sitting at 35 percent for the top Americans (single, making over $379,150), which is the lowest it has been since 1992 (when the marginal tax rate was 31 percent (single making over $51,900). Bush Sr had it down to 28 percent (single making over $17,850, 1988) but there was a tax bubble at 33 percent at a higher rate (thank you Reagan). But for 1982 - 86, the marginal tax rate was 50 percent (single, 88,270). From 1965 to 1981, the top marginal rate was 70 percent ($100K). From 1941 to 1963, the top marginal tax rate was at least 90 percent!!!!

I guess my point is that at all levels of governements, social programs and grandiose plans are created and executed without a way to pay for them. So we put pressure on unions to disintegrate and ordinary middle class americans to give up more. People forget that post-war (WW2) America was built on the middle class and the high paying "union" jobs that were created. The government shoots itself in the foot. By laying off workers and removing good jobs, they remove their tax base, but they don't raise taxes either.

IMHO, the tax rate on the richest Americans is way too low to support the programs that are being introduced. Similarly, property taxes and state taxes are also too low. Raise the taxes on the rich back to the way it was in the early Reagan days (50 percent) and see what happens. America needs more money to pay for its programs. It also needs to cut back on its programs. Balking on your contracts is not the way to do it.
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RonDiaz
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February 24th, 2011 at 7:35:58 AM permalink
The Wisconsin Dems are absolutely in the right. They are using a constitutional maneuver to do the will of the people. Yes it was extreme but it was the only option available to them to slow this down.
Nareed
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February 24th, 2011 at 7:39:14 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Raise the taxes on the rich back to the way it was in the early Reagan days (50 percent) and see what happens.



Other than a prolonged recession and a huge drop in tax revenue?

Well, a candidate will be elected whom people believe will lower taxes.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
FleaStiff
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February 24th, 2011 at 7:48:03 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Well, a candidate will be elected whom people believe will lower taxes.

Ain't nobody gonna be a candidate unless he has already memorized: Low Taxes, Tough on Crime, Pure Hell on Child Molesters. The question is once the elections are over should the Sacred Cows be under attack and are ultimate tactics of preventing a quorum from being present a legitimate tool to use in the battle, no matter which side its used on?
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 24th, 2011 at 9:21:43 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

The Wisconsin Dems are absolutely in the right. They are using a constitutional maneuver to do the will of the people. Yes it was extreme but it was the only option available to them to slow this down.



The "will of the people" also includes 19 Republican state senators and a Republican governor, all of whom were elected on the promise that they would do exactly what they're doing. Why should their "will" be ignored?

Whatever is being done with "the will of the people," this is NOT serving it. It is, however, serving the will of the special interest group called "state employee labor unions.". That's a legitimate purpose, but it is NOT reflective of "the will of the people."

Elections mean things, and their results have consequences.
thecesspit
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February 24th, 2011 at 9:36:47 AM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer


I've heard a lot of analysis on this. It generally goes ...

* a worker MUST MUST MUST join a union
* the worker MUST MUST MUST pay union dues
* the union leadership uses the dues, in large part, to contribute to political candidates, the overwhelming majority of which are Democrats
* the Democrats use their political position to "protect" the existence of the status quo



The first two items are my biggest objection to closed shop Unions. I'm definitely on the liberal/left side of the political spectrum, was always a member of the appropriate Unions in the UK, but it was a shocked to be -forced- to pay a union dues (and a relatively big cut of all my pay, including over-time and bonuses) for a Union that didn't respond or care about my job, as I was a skilled knowledge worker, rather than a services worker.

Unions membership should never be mandatory for a job, and Union dues should only be used for the protection and the promotion of the rights of the workers for that particular employee/employer contract... not to fund a political party, not to further a political career. When done right (and the last Union did it so wrong, but UK civil service Union got it right) they are a useful force to protect people from being shafted, provide legal advice and represent the employee in HR things where the company often has all the power. Done wrong, they are just another business looking out for themselves, and not those paying in.

Mandatory Unions have no incentive to do anything but what they do, as the workers can't walk out of the Union without losing their jobs (you can refuse to be part of the Union in BC, but the Union still collects a fee for "wage negotiation services" which is the same cost as a Union due).

That's not a Union, that's a protection racket.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
RonDiaz
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February 24th, 2011 at 11:34:11 AM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

Elections mean things, and their results have consequences.



I am so tired of this particular statement. Buuuh. Come up with something new.
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 24th, 2011 at 11:40:10 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

They are using a constitutional maneuver to do the will of the people.



Quote: RonDiaz

I am so tired of this particular statement. Buuuh. Come up with something new.

RonDiaz
RonDiaz
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February 24th, 2011 at 11:53:12 AM permalink
The bill will remove $1.42 billion of take-home pay from people in Wisconsin while at the same time offers this tax break and that tax break to the rich corporate overlords. I'm sorry but that doesn't create jobs, it closes businesses.
timberjim
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February 24th, 2011 at 6:06:18 PM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

The bill will remove $1.42 billion of take-home pay from people in Wisconsin while at the same time offers this tax break and that tax break to the rich corporate overlords. I'm sorry but that doesn't create jobs, it closes businesses.



Can you please reference what you are referring to about the tax breaks? I ask you to be specific as to where in what bill we can see these. We all need to be as informed as possible to discuss this issue intelligently.

Is this the amount ($1.42 billion) that these people are being asked to contribute to pay for their own pensions and health care?
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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March 9th, 2011 at 4:38:31 PM permalink
Update: WI senate passes bill to end collective bargaining. They were able to bypass the quorum rule by removing financial language from the bill and leaving the no-more-collective-bargaining language in.

Ironically, WI senate Dems are upset for not getting time to debate it on the floor. After waiting 19 days, I'm okay with this. Other opinions?
AZDuffman
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March 9th, 2011 at 4:44:29 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Raise the taxes on the rich back to the way it was in the early Reagan days (50 percent) and see what happens.



No need to raise taxes, I can tell you what will happen. Many will join Steve Wynn in Macau. Few will start businesses. Many will even close marginal businesses.

Who is John Galt?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Wavy70
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March 9th, 2011 at 6:35:34 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

No need to raise taxes, I can tell you what will happen. Many will join Steve Wynn in Macau. Few will start businesses. Many will even close marginal businesses.

Who is John Galt?



If they want to live under the PRC let them.
Seeing how China openly is trying to destroy the American Dollar and economy it shows where Wynn's loyalties are. Wynn's nationality is Cash first America comes in about 10th.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
RonDiaz
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March 10th, 2011 at 7:47:12 AM permalink
Well they jammed it through. What gets me most is they passed a "budget repair" bill that now supposedly has no fiscal impact, so they can meed the lower quorum requirement.
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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March 10th, 2011 at 8:27:06 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

Well they jammed it through. What gets me most is they passed a "budget repair" bill that now supposedly has no fiscal impact, so they can meed the lower quorum requirement.



Quote: RonDiaz

They are using a constitutional maneuver to do the will of the people.

thecesspit
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March 10th, 2011 at 8:32:42 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

Well they jammed it through. What gets me most is they passed a "budget repair" bill that now supposedly has no fiscal impact, so they can meed the lower quorum requirement.



As I read it, it was just the language that removed collective bargaining. Which to me should be a separate item from a budget bill, and hotly debated...

Oops.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
RonDiaz
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March 10th, 2011 at 8:35:15 AM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer



Except they violated Wisconsin Open Records law, based on the interpretation of their own Republican Attorney General. As to what you quoted, I'm not quite sure I get the argument...it makes sense to you to pass a budget bill that has no money involved? Hard for me to call it a budget bill at that point.

As for the will of the people, that is the one good thing that will come of this, they sealed landslide losses for GOP in the upcoming recall and 2012 elections.
RonDiaz
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March 10th, 2011 at 8:36:40 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

As I read it, it was just the language that removed collective bargaining. Which to me should be a separate item from a budget bill, and hotly debated...

Oops.



They removed the "fiscal" portions from the original budget repair bill and then passed that. What they passed was the Budget repair bill...minus budget...
SOOPOO
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March 10th, 2011 at 8:41:18 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

Except they violated Wisconsin Open Records law, based on the interpretation of their own Republican Attorney General. As to what you quoted, I'm not quite sure I get the argument...it makes sense to you to pass a budget bill that has no money involved? Hard for me to call it a budget bill at that point.

As for the will of the people, that is the one good thing that will come of this, they sealed landslide losses for GOP in the upcoming recall and 2012 elections.



Don't be so sure. If the governor wins and is able to show a billion dollars or so in savings, I don't see 'landslide losses', rather, continueed gains. Knowing very little about Wisconsin politics other than this recent dust-up, I would make this governor a huge favorite for re-election.
RonDiaz
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March 10th, 2011 at 8:47:23 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Don't be so sure. If the governor wins and is able to show a billion dollars or so in savings, I don't see 'landslide losses', rather, continueed gains. Knowing very little about Wisconsin politics other than this recent dust-up, I would make this governor a huge favorite for re-election.



Haaaaa, I am sorry but the "savings" are 100% on the backs of the working class. There is no balance. This bill will close many businesses pure and simple. I guess maybe he will be reelected just because anybody with a desire for a decent job or a business will have abandoned the state by then. The folks holding down the McJobs, which are all that will be left, are not that active of a voting bloc.
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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March 10th, 2011 at 8:55:47 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

Except they violated Wisconsin Open Records law, based on the interpretation of their own Republican Attorney General. As to what you quoted, I'm not quite sure I get the argument...it makes sense to you to pass a budget bill that has no money involved? Hard for me to call it a budget bill at that point.

As for the will of the people, that is the one good thing that will come of this, they sealed landslide losses for GOP in the upcoming recall and 2012 elections.



I don't think your issue is with terminology as much as it is with ideology. If you don't like it when Republicans act boldly (meaning, doing what they told their electorate they would do) but do like it when Dems act cowardly (fleeing the state, which I'm pretty sure they didn't campaign on), that's fine, just say so. Don't quibble over terminology. And don't claim one in the name of "constitutional maneuver to do the will of the people" but not the other. Both maneuvers were constitutional. The Dems just got out-maneuvered, period.

The bill that passed wasn't a budget bill, I haven't heard anyone call it that. I've heard it call a budget repair bill, which makes sense, since it sets the stage for future budget bills under this new law. And, it seems to have been effective in forcing the Dems to come back and actually do their jobs.

I'm not sure what you don't understand about the election results. The Reps won, fair and square, according to the will of the people, and they get to govern. I think when you say "will of the people," you are really saying, "will of the people that I align with politically, but the people who voted in the current congress and governor should be ignored." That's the only interpretation that makes sense in the context of your comments. At least, I haven't heard you say that "the people" could possibly have any will other than that which aligns with your perspective.

As for the recalls and elections, we'll see. I don't think any will occur, and I don't think, as long as the state budget gets balanced, people see that this isn't the end of the world, and unions continue to use unsavory tactics and language and imports, that it will hurt the governor or the Reps in the long run. I understand that this is a *huge* loss for Dems and state workers union, but sometimes, you lose, especially when your deal is too sweetheart for the taxpayers to support any more.

BTW, collective bargaining is still legal in WI, and still legal for state workers unions. The state just voted to strip it from the contract, basically saying, we can't go with contracts of this type any more.
RonDiaz
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March 10th, 2011 at 9:14:12 AM permalink
I hate to really drag this out as we can go back and forth and back and forth and add nothing new. I'll just address a couple things you have said though.

I simply reject your argument that a budget repair bill has nothing to do with budgets.

The implication that I can't and don't understand elections is insulting. As to the will of the people, 3 weeks of sustained protests of up to 100K people is something that I believe you have to listen to.

Of course people are on all sides of this issue. Myself in a perfect world I would prefer unions to not be necessary. Although the idea they protect the lazy is false, they certainly do add some layers of inefficiency.

I am absolutely sure there will be some recall elections. And in my region of the state, once people see how significantly this will depress the local economy there will not be a lot of support. Of course that is probably why both our local senator and Representative, GOP members, voted no. They wanted to keep their jobs.

The idea that state workers here get some sort of sweetheart deal is just silly. The GOP does an excellent job of framing people who maybe make $15 an hour as the enemy of people who make $11 an hour while the people who make $15 a second are just lapping it up.

Again the implication I don't know what is in this bill is insulting. What good is collective bargaining if you can't bargain for anything?
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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March 10th, 2011 at 9:31:37 AM permalink
Quote: RonDiaz

I hate to really drag this out as we can go back and forth and back and forth and add nothing new. I'll just address a couple things you have said though.

I simply reject your argument that a budget repair bill has nothing to do with budgets.

The implication that I can't and don't understand elections is insulting. As to the will of the people, 3 weeks of sustained protests of up to 100K people is something that I believe you have to listen to.

Of course people are on all sides of this issue. Myself in a perfect world I would prefer unions to not be necessary. Although the idea they protect the lazy is false, they certainly do add some layers of inefficiency.

I am absolutely sure there will be some recall elections. And in my region of the state, once people see how significantly this will depress the local economy there will not be a lot of support. Of course that is probably why both our local senator and Representative, GOP members, voted no. They wanted to keep their jobs.

The idea that state workers here get some sort of sweetheart deal is just silly. The GOP does an excellent job of framing people who maybe make $15 an hour as the enemy of people who make $11 an hour while the people who make $15 a second are just lapping it up.

Again the implication I don't know what is in this bill is insulting. What good is collective bargaining if you can't bargain for anything?



Alll I can do is say it. If you perceive insults and implications, that's on you.

One can't help but wonder how much of the protests were organic and how much of it was "astroturf." I think the original protests were organic, but when out-of-staters got involved, including Obama's organization, it got both hijacked and ugly. I don't think that's going to influence anybody with an actual WI vote. For the same reasons, any recall efforts will probably fall flat since they're also "astroturf," imposed in large part by the same outsiders who have spent the last three weeks giving the WI populace tired-head.

I understand that things are emotional and people who see things the same way you see things have suffererd a massive, emotional defeat, and the first impulse is to grasp at anything that will try to illegitimize the defeat. But I just don't see it happening. The emotions will wear off, and there will be an actual economic effect of this and everything else Walker is doing. If that economic effect is positive, Walker will win and GOP will be re-elected. If it's not, they won't. See also: Ronald Reagan circa 1981-1982 v. his landslide re-election in 1984. See also Bush 41 circa 1990 v. his defeat in 1992. (I think Obama will follow a similar arc, up in 2009 v. defeat in 2012.)

I don't think recalls based on emotion, defeat, and the need to validate a movement/ideology are going to succeed. But we'll see ...

We will see if it depresses anything. I have heard this argument, but it never made sense. What, exactly, is being depressed? State workers are going to go from paying a very low percentage of their benefits and pensions to something resembling sanity. How does that cause a business owner to have to close down his business?

The workers get a VERY sweetheart deal, I think there's little doubt about that. Even the workers themselves (say they) were willing to cut back on those things, so long as collective bargaining stayed in place. The fact that the GOP had an excellent point does not make that point "propoganda." The fact that the people of WI, in the near-supermajority, agreed with the excellent point does not mean they were "brainwashed."

Sometimes, you're on the wrong side of the issue, and this is one of those times.
Calder
Calder
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March 10th, 2011 at 9:51:36 AM permalink
The repair bill is not the biennial budget for 2011-13. Among other things, the repair bill was needed to pay off the remaining deficit from the 2009-11 budget due to revenue shortfalls. That's distinct from the $3.6 billion structural deficit that has to be eliminated in the '11-'13 budget bill.

Ron, I may agree with your two-tier representation of Wisconsin workers. Those in the first tier have free state pensions, free health insurance, and may retire in their 50s. The second tier must save for their own retirement, pay their own health insurance premiums, and retire at 67; they also pay taxes to support the first tier.

The average total compensation for Milwaukee Public School teachers topped $100,000 this year. The insurance provided to most teachers is through a company administered by...the teachers union. It's that sort of stuff that's assured through collective bargaining. Unless you do away with collective bargaining for benefit packages, the state and local governments will never be able to control spending.

Employees will be able to bargain for wages, something federal union employees are not allowed to do.
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