Societal Collapse/ Extinction

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: AZDuffman

Haven't seen anything on it. "Multiple vaccines" could mean anything. My thought is this happens regular but this is the time you choose to notice and think the world is ending because of it? When you see news like this one should ask themselves, "compared to what?" How many vaccines are being removed vs. how many are there in total? Are they for things we do not need to vax for, like old flu strains or smallpox?

Sounds like business as usual to me.
link to original post

I guess that could be another possibility for societal collapse or extinction- an unintentional iatrogenic genocide.

I'm not looking for any trouble so I'm not going to express it in terms of any current real-world concerns, but suppose there was some universally applied medical intervention, that was believed to be harmless, but there is no substitute for time and in time it proved to be deadly and sterilizing to all those who took it.

This thought came to me when I read that there was a negative correlation between having had chickenpox and developing brain cancer. Given a choice between those two things, I think I'll take my chances with chickenpox! But now they vaccinate for chickenpox. Given that correlation, are you sure you want to do that?

The microbes that are endemic to a species evolved with that species, and there's generally some kind of symbiotic relationship. Like our gut bacteria. We can't live without those for very long. And who knows what those little bugs in our eyelashes do, maybe they keep us from going blind or something? Trying to hack nature (especially evolution) is risky business. We should do this slowly and thoughtfully.
link to original post

If such a medical intervention had the sort of adverse effect you mentioned, medical scientists and public health experts would be all over it.

As for chickenpox versus vaccination, what is the comparison of the incidence of brain cancer in the vaccinated versus unvaccinated compared the risk of death in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated?
link to original post

Chickenpox was always just a thing you got. Discomfort for about a week then over it. In my day parents had "chickenpox parties" if a kid was known to have it so the others would get it. Because it was better to get it young than as an adult where there could be complications. Risk of death? Pretty close to zero.
link to original post

We had chicken pox parties way back in the day because we didn't have a vaccine, and chicken pox was a disease of the youth. Those youths suffered greatly, often at risk of permanent disfigurement due to the pox and at risk of death. The vaccine changed all that. The vaccine reduced the suffering of today's youths, drastically reduced the risk of permanent disfigurement and reduced deaths by 97%. There is no disease I can think of where it's better to contact the disease versus getting the vaccine.

Quote: gordonm888

Identified Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorder in children aged 8 years in the US
(source: CDC)

2022 1 in 31
2012 1 in 69
2002 1 in 150

1987 1 in 3,000
1970 1 in 13,000

ASD is reported to occur in all racial, ethnic, and socioeconomic groups.
ASD is over 3 times more common among boys than among girls.
About 1 in 6 (17%) children aged 3–17 years were diagnosed with a developmental disability, as reported by parents, during a study period of 2009–2017. These included ASD, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), blindness, and cerebral palsy, among others.

It reminds me of the old punch-line: in ten years we'll all be Elvis impersonators.
link to original post

I have a controversial opinion about that: Autism diagnosis has increased because it's an inoffensive diagnosis, or, "Where did all the retards go?"

Child psychology is a tough way to make a living. The child is the patient but the parents are calling all of the shots, including which practitioner they go to. So the last thing he wants to tell the parents is "Your kid caught crazy from his parents" if he wants them coming back and paying the bills. But, that is very often the case. Crazy parents have done so much harm. Especially now with all unwed mothers, they don't have that "sanity check" of another adult in the house to counter temporary, random outbursts of crazy that tend to take on a life of their own once put into practice. (E.g., you have one bad day and do one bad thing. But tomorrow, you don't want to admit you did a bad thing yesterday, the shame and guilt is too painful, so you do it again to convince yourself it wasn't so bad, and then again the next day, until it becomes your habit.)

The next thing you don't want to say is "Your kid has mental retardation." That diagnosis is so offensive they tiptoe even around using the term. It's associated with bad genetics and unpopular ideas about congenital inferiority, and the lower class. When is the last time anyone who is rich and famous had a kid who was described as "retarded?" It's like the difference between being "eccentric" and "crazy"- basically, your net worth. I noticed the autism diagnosis creeping through the social classes back in the 80s and 90s, starting with the rich, then to the suburbs, then once the practitioners developed their skills at gaming the public health system to get the bills paid, even the kids in the ghetto could be autistic. And it's mostly boys because boys are more likely to get in some kind of trouble where they are subjected to a diagnosis.

So that's basically it. Every kid who was crazy, lazy, retarded, "not the sharpest tool in the shed," or evil got this "autistic" label that kept everyone happy, kept everyone getting paid, and that's how it is now. That's not to say a disorder like autism doesn't exist and is present to some degree in many. I am certain I am not the only person in this forum who grew up a roiling mess of underutilized and unappreciated abilities, with unsatisfied curiosity about the world. But those same characteristics that get you in to trouble can also get you out of it.

Call it societal collapse. We all go crazy because it's the latest craze.

Oh and then there's this:

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: AZDuffman

Haven't seen anything on it. "Multiple vaccines" could mean anything. My thought is this happens regular but this is the time you choose to notice and think the world is ending because of it? When you see news like this one should ask themselves, "compared to what?" How many vaccines are being removed vs. how many are there in total? Are they for things we do not need to vax for, like old flu strains or smallpox?

Sounds like business as usual to me.
link to original post

I guess that could be another possibility for societal collapse or extinction- an unintentional iatrogenic genocide.

I'm not looking for any trouble so I'm not going to express it in terms of any current real-world concerns, but suppose there was some universally applied medical intervention, that was believed to be harmless, but there is no substitute for time and in time it proved to be deadly and sterilizing to all those who took it.

This thought came to me when I read that there was a negative correlation between having had chickenpox and developing brain cancer. Given a choice between those two things, I think I'll take my chances with chickenpox! But now they vaccinate for chickenpox. Given that correlation, are you sure you want to do that?

The microbes that are endemic to a species evolved with that species, and there's generally some kind of symbiotic relationship. Like our gut bacteria. We can't live without those for very long. And who knows what those little bugs in our eyelashes do, maybe they keep us from going blind or something? Trying to hack nature (especially evolution) is risky business. We should do this slowly and thoughtfully.
link to original post

If such a medical intervention had the sort of adverse effect you mentioned, medical scientists and public health experts would be all over it.

As for chickenpox versus vaccination, what is the comparison of the incidence of brain cancer in the vaccinated versus unvaccinated compared the risk of death in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated?
link to original post

Chickenpox was always just a thing you got. Discomfort for about a week then over it. In my day parents had "chickenpox parties" if a kid was known to have it so the others would get it. Because it was better to get it young than as an adult where there could be complications. Risk of death? Pretty close to zero.
link to original post

We had chicken pox parties way back in the day because we didn't have a vaccine, and chicken pox was a disease of the youth. Those youths suffered greatly, often at risk of permanent disfigurement due to the pox and at risk of death. The vaccine changed all that. The vaccine reduced the suffering of today's youths, drastically reduced the risk of permanent disfigurement and reduced deaths by 97%. There is no disease I can think of where it's better to contact the disease versus getting the vaccine.
link to original post

Disfigurement? Maybe you had a few scars, not a big deal. As to death, I cannot recall ever hearing of anyone who got it in childhood dying. You itched like crazy, in a week it was over.

Quote: ChumpChange

Just throw "Nebraska going broke" into the YouTube search engine and limit it to the past month if you want. Looks like Montana farmers are showing up in the results too. Every other midwest farming state will be in peril soon.
link to original post

How on earth is this on-topic for this thread?

I'd put up a specific video that I found, but it would not be in the decorum of this forum.

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: AZDuffman

Haven't seen anything on it. "Multiple vaccines" could mean anything. My thought is this happens regular but this is the time you choose to notice and think the world is ending because of it? When you see news like this one should ask themselves, "compared to what?" How many vaccines are being removed vs. how many are there in total? Are they for things we do not need to vax for, like old flu strains or smallpox?

Sounds like business as usual to me.
link to original post

I guess that could be another possibility for societal collapse or extinction- an unintentional iatrogenic genocide.

I'm not looking for any trouble so I'm not going to express it in terms of any current real-world concerns, but suppose there was some universally applied medical intervention, that was believed to be harmless, but there is no substitute for time and in time it proved to be deadly and sterilizing to all those who took it.

This thought came to me when I read that there was a negative correlation between having had chickenpox and developing brain cancer. Given a choice between those two things, I think I'll take my chances with chickenpox! But now they vaccinate for chickenpox. Given that correlation, are you sure you want to do that?

The microbes that are endemic to a species evolved with that species, and there's generally some kind of symbiotic relationship. Like our gut bacteria. We can't live without those for very long. And who knows what those little bugs in our eyelashes do, maybe they keep us from going blind or something? Trying to hack nature (especially evolution) is risky business. We should do this slowly and thoughtfully.
link to original post

If such a medical intervention had the sort of adverse effect you mentioned, medical scientists and public health experts would be all over it.

As for chickenpox versus vaccination, what is the comparison of the incidence of brain cancer in the vaccinated versus unvaccinated compared the risk of death in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated?
link to original post

Chickenpox was always just a thing you got. Discomfort for about a week then over it. In my day parents had "chickenpox parties" if a kid was known to have it so the others would get it. Because it was better to get it young than as an adult where there could be complications. Risk of death? Pretty close to zero.
link to original post

We had chicken pox parties way back in the day because we didn't have a vaccine, and chicken pox was a disease of the youth. Those youths suffered greatly, often at risk of permanent disfigurement due to the pox and at risk of death. The vaccine changed all that. The vaccine reduced the suffering of today's youths, drastically reduced the risk of permanent disfigurement and reduced deaths by 97%. There is no disease I can think of where it's better to contact the disease versus getting the vaccine.
link to original post

Disfigurement? Maybe you had a few scars, not a big deal. As to death, I cannot recall ever hearing of anyone who got it in childhood dying. You itched like crazy, in a week it was over.
link to original post

Thirty American children are estimated to die each year from chicken-pox, down from 150 on average in the 1980s. Cases have dropped about 90% and hospitalizations even more. There is little as traumatic as having your child in a hospital.

Quote: ChumpChange

Just throw "Nebraska going broke" into the YouTube search engine and limit it to the past month if you want. Looks like Montana farmers are showing up in the results too. Every other midwest farming state will be in peril soon.
link to original post

Thank you for the references, I've looked up a few and then some follow-up information. Here's what I think based on what I saw. I am always open to more information.

Early in the whole tariff and immigration issues, roughly January thru April 2025, there were many articles/videos/etc. reporting that, between tariffs and labor loss due to immigration enforcement, NE's budget was predicting a shortfall. The predictions came from reliable sources, but the amount varied widely. I'll rely on the NE state's forecasting board which projected $190 million in the current year (FY26), plus $190 more over the next 2 years (FY27 and FY28). This projection came in April, when the tariffs were imposed, and projected a ~6% shortfall in NE's GDP.

Several "sources" reported $500 million in one year. No reliable (in my judgment) source reports this; I can't even figure out where it came from.

Still, a $190 million projected shortfall in one year, and $380 million over 3 years, is nothing to sneeze at. So how does it work in NE?

NE's FY is July thru June, so it is now in the 2nd month of FY26. NE writes its budgets in odd years for 2 years, so the FY24 and FY25 budgets were passed in Spring 2023. They passed new budgets for FY26 and FY27 on May 15, 2025.

So ... the timing tells us that the shortfall projections were made before the FY26 and FY27 budgets were passed. As NE must by law balance their state budget, the legislators went back to work and passed budgets that account for the shortfall projections (and recent tax cuts). Budget projections are now a $1.1 million surplus for FY26 (maybe also FY27, I couldn't tell). So ... no projected shortfall any more. We'll see what actually happens.

I don't know what they "cut" from their budget, if anything, and at this point, as it's too early to draw any NE-specific conclusions, so I'll just use the best evidence I can.

I'm sure there are a lot of videos making various claims, but the main thrust is that the shortfall would be caused by an increase in cost to farm labor due to immigration enforcement, combined with a $2 billion soybean contract with China being canceled. We also saw across the news broadcasts many claims that tariffs would lead to inflation, famously leading to the fight over lowering the Fed rate.

Inflation fears due to tariffs have simply not borne out in the CPI, but they did not know this in April when NE made their projections. Tariffs began on April 2 and everyone was just guessing at what would happen. It appears that many guessers were influenced by something other than economics.

As far as soybeans, NE ranks 6th in the USA (behind IL, IA, MN, IN, and OH) and the USA overall produces about 1/3 of the world's soybeans (There are other crops but I only saw soybeans in the reports, so that's what I'm reporting.) So, NE produces something like 1% of the world's soybeans, not enough to move a market, and soybean buyers are by no means limited to China.

So, my conclusion is, the "reports" that NE was in deep trouble over tariff and immigration policy are ridiculous for the following reasons:
1. NE took care of it before the FY started and adjusted their budget based on predicted tariff dynamics that, so far, have not borne out.
2. NE simply does not rely on selling crops to China enough to effect their ability to make money. If any "hit" exists, it's very short term until there's another buyer, and there are a lot of buyers.

NE is definitely facing uncertainty with farm labor as ICE has been somewhat active in NE. However, uncertainty is no reason to panic or to report NE's impending bankruptcy.

Soybean price history is here: https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/soybeans-price?op=1. The chart shows us that, when the shortfall projections were made in April, soybeans were about 5% less than they are now.

I doubt some will ever stop posting things intending to create discord but I don't think it changes any minds and only discredits those perpetrators. But let's see how this plays out. Maybe NE's GDP won't go down by 6.1%, maybe more, maybe it goes up. If, in 6 months, NE has declared bankruptcy, then we'll know who to pay attention to.

Quote: rxwine

This is all fake. I just generated it from Ai Google. It did take about 5 seconds though.
link to original post

what exactly did you tell it to do? did you give any information, or did AI produce it all? Did you ask it to produce fake references?

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AZDuffman

Chickenpox was always just a thing you got. Discomfort for about a week then over it. In my day parents had "chickenpox parties" if a kid was known to have it so the others would get it. Because it was better to get it young than as an adult where there could be complications. Risk of death? Pretty close to zero.
link to original post

We had chicken pox parties way back in the day because we didn't have a vaccine, and chicken pox was a disease of the youth. Those youths suffered greatly, often at risk of permanent disfigurement due to the pox and at risk of death. The vaccine changed all that. The vaccine reduced the suffering of today's youths, drastically reduced the risk of permanent disfigurement and reduced deaths by 97%. There is no disease I can think of where it's better to contact the disease versus getting the vaccine.
link to original post

Last week I was riding the bus, and a pretty girl walked onto the bus, and she was wearing a skirt. And as she walked by, I put my monkey paw up under her skirt!

And she said "How dare you touch me like that! That's assault!"

And I told her "Don't worry, it was all for the sake of science. I thought I saw a squirrel run up under your skirt and I was trying to remove it. I could be wrong, but there was a chance I really did see a squirrel. And there is also a chance that squirrel could be rabid, and bite you and cause you to die. But there is no chance my touching you under your skirt could cause your death. Therefore, I performed an act with zero chance of causing your death to correct a condition with a nonzero chance of causing your death. Trust me, I'm a scientist."

And she said "Oh. Well then, thank you for.." wait- that's crazy, she didn't say anything like that and I've never done anything like that!!

It's all about consent. Keeping everything consensual, with no compulsion of any kind, will keep us all getting along and will actually increase support for these public health measures.

Quote: SummerlinDave

Quote: ChumpChange

Just throw "Nebraska going broke" into the YouTube search engine and limit it to the past month if you want. Looks like Montana farmers are showing up in the results too. Every other midwest farming state will be in peril soon.
link to original post

Thank you for the references, I've looked up a few and then some follow-up information. Here's what I think based on what I saw. I am always open to more information.

link to original post

That's some literate writing there as opposed to off the cuff rantings from dozens of TikTokers with a definite ax to grind. The lack of replacement labor and the lack of buyers from overseas and also the tariffs cutting off the US from all markets, plus the cancellation of the $2 billion contract with China come to the forefront. Nebraska is asking Trump for a bailout for the state according to the TikTokers and the welfare programs for farmers Trump had in the 2018-19 season for his tariff wars are gone now, so a bailout to the farmers and the state seems unlikely. Not to mention there has been more recent budget legislation passed in Washington DC nearly 2 months ago that will shift costs to the states that they never had before and likely won't be able to cover. Speculation is that big corporations will buy up all these bankrupt farms, but without markets to sell to and without labor to do the farming, why would they? I see haboobs and dust bowls coming. Potash from Canada won't be coming.

Produce inflation went up nearly 40% this past month. Cattle futures inflation are up 60% over the past 3 years. A $5 footlong is likely $10 or more at Subway.

Pizza Hut just introduced a $5 pizza, while both Domino's and Papa John's have a version of a $6 pie.

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: rxwine

This is all fake. I just generated it from Ai Google. It did take about 5 seconds though.
link to original post

what exactly did you tell it to do? did you give any information, or did AI produce it all? Did you ask it to produce fake references?
link to original post

Make fake scholarly-sounding article focusing on the general themes of the TV show Green Acres with footnotes focusing on societal collapse.

Approximately, from memory….that’s what I did

Quote: ChumpChange

That's some literate writing there as opposed to off the cuff rantings from dozens of TikTokers with a definite ax to grind. The lack of replacement labor and the lack of buyers from overseas and also the tariffs cutting off the US from all markets, plus the cancellation of the $2 billion contract with China come to the forefront. Nebraska is asking Trump for a bailout for the state according to the TikTokers and the welfare programs for farmers Trump had in the 2018-19 season for his tariff wars are gone now, so a bailout to the farmers and the state seems unlikely. Not to mention there has been more recent budget legislation passed in Washington DC nearly 2 months ago that will shift costs to the states that they never had before and likely won't be able to cover. Speculation is that big corporations will buy up all these bankrupt farms, but without markets to sell to and without labor to do the farming, why would they? I see haboobs and dust bowls coming. Potash from Canada won't be coming.

Produce inflation went up nearly 40% this past month. Cattle futures inflation are up 60% over the past 3 years.
link to original post

Friend, I do not mean to be difficult or contrary but none of this makes sense.
* "Lack of replacement labor" was, frankly, a huge part of the justification for keeping slavery. Never minding the moral hideousness of such an argument, then and now, it turned out to be incorrect anyway. It will in this case, too, as well as lessen (admittedly a tiny bit) the wage/wealth gap.
* Agriculture is about 1% of American GDP and a $2 billion contract with China is a drop in the bucket and can't move the market.
* NE doesn't need any bailout and I can't find a record of it requesting one. They were worried about the funding freeze but that was early in the new administration and isn't in place any more since the big fat bill was signed.
* The USDA says produce inflation is in the 2's now and for the foreseeable future (https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-price-outlook/summary-findings).
* Since 4/1/22 ($142), cattle futures are up 70% overall but 50 points of that was prior to tariff announcements on April 2 ($211). Today, futures are $242.

Potash is super important but Canada stands to be far harder hit in any trade war, and on 9/1 tariffs are going back to USMCA levels on almost everything (cars and some metals excepted).

As for the rest of it, it's hard to address as it's nebulous. Any specific refutation could easily be deflected by saying, "that's not what I meant." "Likely won't be able to cover" and "Speculation" are examples.

So, why don't we just wait and see what happens? Maybe haboobs will be more frequent, but maybe not. The one we just saw was certainly not precipitated by an absence of potash, so it doesn't apply here. Maybe these doomsday predictions will come true, but history says they won't.

It's fine to debate projections, but time will give us both an answer. Let's wait 6 months and see where things are and we'll come back to this and see who's prediction is closer. Sound good?

Quote: billryan

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: AZDuffman

Haven't seen anything on it. "Multiple vaccines" could mean anything. My thought is this happens regular but this is the time you choose to notice and think the world is ending because of it? When you see news like this one should ask themselves, "compared to what?" How many vaccines are being removed vs. how many are there in total? Are they for things we do not need to vax for, like old flu strains or smallpox?

Sounds like business as usual to me.
link to original post

I guess that could be another possibility for societal collapse or extinction- an unintentional iatrogenic genocide.

I'm not looking for any trouble so I'm not going to express it in terms of any current real-world concerns, but suppose there was some universally applied medical intervention, that was believed to be harmless, but there is no substitute for time and in time it proved to be deadly and sterilizing to all those who took it.

This thought came to me when I read that there was a negative correlation between having had chickenpox and developing brain cancer. Given a choice between those two things, I think I'll take my chances with chickenpox! But now they vaccinate for chickenpox. Given that correlation, are you sure you want to do that?

The microbes that are endemic to a species evolved with that species, and there's generally some kind of symbiotic relationship. Like our gut bacteria. We can't live without those for very long. And who knows what those little bugs in our eyelashes do, maybe they keep us from going blind or something? Trying to hack nature (especially evolution) is risky business. We should do this slowly and thoughtfully.
link to original post

If such a medical intervention had the sort of adverse effect you mentioned, medical scientists and public health experts would be all over it.

As for chickenpox versus vaccination, what is the comparison of the incidence of brain cancer in the vaccinated versus unvaccinated compared the risk of death in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated?
link to original post

Chickenpox was always just a thing you got. Discomfort for about a week then over it. In my day parents had "chickenpox parties" if a kid was known to have it so the others would get it. Because it was better to get it young than as an adult where there could be complications. Risk of death? Pretty close to zero.
link to original post

We had chicken pox parties way back in the day because we didn't have a vaccine, and chicken pox was a disease of the youth. Those youths suffered greatly, often at risk of permanent disfigurement due to the pox and at risk of death. The vaccine changed all that. The vaccine reduced the suffering of today's youths, drastically reduced the risk of permanent disfigurement and reduced deaths by 97%. There is no disease I can think of where it's better to contact the disease versus getting the vaccine.
link to original post

Disfigurement? Maybe you had a few scars, not a big deal. As to death, I cannot recall ever hearing of anyone who got it in childhood dying. You itched like crazy, in a week it was over.
link to original post

Thirty American children are estimated to die each year from chicken-pox, down from 150 on average in the 1980s. Cases have dropped about 90% and hospitalizations even more. There is little as traumatic as having your child in a hospital.
link to original post

So, three per state per year back then? I would hardly call that a major thing. No wonder I do not recall hearing about it.

Nebraska was supposed to get $350 million in tax money from the China deal, so they are out that. Plus 65% of the labor force in the state are illegal so they won't get tax income from them since they were chased away. Whatever couple hundred million surplus the state was sitting on looks to be negative now. With farms going out of business, I'd be looking for a wave of bank failures, 1985-style.

Quote: ChumpChange

Quote: SummerlinDave

Quote: ChumpChange

Just throw "Nebraska going broke" into the YouTube search engine and limit it to the past month if you want. Looks like Montana farmers are showing up in the results too. Every other midwest farming state will be in peril soon.
link to original post

Thank you for the references, I've looked up a few and then some follow-up information. Here's what I think based on what I saw. I am always open to more information.

link to original post

That's some literate writing there as opposed to off the cuff rantings from dozens of TikTokers with a definite ax to grind. The lack of replacement labor and the lack of buyers from overseas and also the tariffs cutting off the US from all markets, plus the cancellation of the $2 billion contract with China come to the forefront. Nebraska is asking Trump for a bailout for the state according to the TikTokers and the welfare programs for farmers Trump had in the 2018-19 season for his tariff wars are gone now, so a bailout to the farmers and the state seems unlikely. Not to mention there has been more recent budget legislation passed in Washington DC nearly 2 months ago that will shift costs to the states that they never had before and likely won't be able to cover. Speculation is that big corporations will buy up all these bankrupt farms, but without markets to sell to and without labor to do the farming, why would they? I see haboobs and dust bowls coming. Potash from Canada won't be coming.

Produce inflation went up nearly 40% this past month. Cattle futures inflation are up 60% over the past 3 years. A $5 footlong is likely $10 or more at Subway.
link to original post

Suspension for 3 days for political speech. I was trying to be lenient but this and many of the preceding ChumpChange posts have been political speech.

Using politician's names, like Trump or Biden, is a sure indicator of a political post.

SummerlinDave, your post was in response but was also political speech. I am giving you a warning.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Last week I was riding the bus, and a pretty girl walked onto the bus, and she was wearing a skirt. And as she walked by, I put my monkey paw up under her skirt!

And she said "How dare you touch me like that! That's assault!"

And I told her "Don't worry, it was all for the sake of science. I thought I saw a squirrel run up under your skirt and I was trying to remove it. I could be wrong, but there was a chance I really did see a squirrel. And there is also a chance that squirrel could be rabid, and bite you and cause you to die. But there is no chance my touching you under your skirt could cause your death. Therefore, I performed an act with zero chance of causing your death to correct a condition with a nonzero chance of causing your death. Trust me, I'm a scientist."

And she said "Oh. Well then, thank you for.." wait- that's crazy, she didn't say anything like that and I've never done anything like that!!

It's all about consent. Keeping everything consensual, with no compulsion of any kind, will keep us all getting along and will actually increase support for these public health measures.
link to original post

Clearly, you have dizzying intellect.
link to original post

Aw thanks, I get that a lot. I'll try not to make anyone's head spin too fast.

People get very upset about being forced or compelled. If you look up the terms "nonconsensual" and "forcible compulsion" in a law encyclopedia they're usually used in reference to a certain crime that disgusts and angers people to the extreme, and it is a crime against the body. We can generalize that and say that any nonconsensual or forcible thing done to the body of another is going to inspire the same feelings and cause that person to hate you, and being hated has consequences.

With the events we all saw a few years ago, it seemed like the more the one side disliked and distrusted some measure, the more the other side insisted it must be applied to them. Can't fool me, they were getting their jollies doing that! People like power, and as a very smart man once said "The only way to know and prove that you have power, is to make someone else's life hell." You can brighten up someone's day without any power at all, so doing that doesn't satisfy someone who craves power, and there are many such people, and you are as likely to find them already in a position of power as you are to find a drunk already in a bar. And from the opposite side, the more the one were forced and put upon, the more extreme they were willing to be and the more they rejected everything about the other, even when it was counterproductive to do those things.

Forgive me if I do not think nonconsensuality, anger, hatred, and vituperation are desirable as elements of public health policy! Information delivered gently, with alternative viewpoints sought after and valued. And the individual is always in charge; they're the captain of their own ship, and we respect that they are the only one who is going to have to go down with it. I'm not sure if this is stressed enough in the education of medical professionals- if you screw up, you won't feel a thing, but it is someone else who might be dying horribly as a result, or have lifelong consequences that they will be the only one suffering. That's what makes the principle of consent in medicine such a sacred thing.

Honestly, all of these scenarios are terrifying in their own way, but I’m most concerned about a mix of climate change and pandemics. The slow creep of environmental collapse paired with something like a fast-moving virus could hit humanity from two directions at once.

AI is fascinating, but I feel we have a bit more control there for now, and asteroid strikes… well, statistically rare, though catastrophic. Declining birthrates and food shortages are quietly alarming too—these are the slow-burning crises that might sneak up on us.

At the end of the day, it seems like nature has a knack for keeping us on our toes. I just hope humans are clever enough to survive our own mistakes long enough to adapt.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: GenoDRPh

It's a good thing, then, that nonconsensuality, anger, hatred, and vituperation are not elements of public health policy! Information is delivered gently, with alternative *scientifically valid and reliable* viewpoints sought after and valued.
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Who decides what is scientifically valid and reliable, and why is that important in the non-scientific areas of medicine, ethics, and government? Science can tell you how to do something but not what you should do. Science in its pure form is also remarkably amoral.

Come to think of it, how does medical training make one ethical, or reliable, or scientific, or anything really? Josef Mengele had a perfectly legitimate medical education. So does Earl Bradley. Fat lot of good it did them, or the people they victimized. It demonstrates credentials alone can't be trusted. Doctors get caught in billing fraud, narcotics violations and abuse of patients all the time, every modern judge who has taken bribes has a law degree, cops falsify evidence and violate people's rights, nurses murder their patients for the feeling of power it gives them, scientists engage in academic and research fraud regularly for the purpose of securing grants and prestige. I have my own credentials and I believe credentials have a place, but I also know a person with professional credentials has the same desires, emotions, vices, and character flaws as anyone else.
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The ethics of medical knowledge are already decided by the public, not the individual. Do you want individuals to decide which thing they will consent to in regards to public health?

Societal collapse is defined as people choosing only to obey what they agree with no penalty for doing otherwise. Unless you think the country is founded on the principle of no representation.

if the dictates come from no representation, then I'd agree, do as you like. Representation is definitely not tailored for individual preference. But it's not one rule of all either.

(of course feel free to disagree with my snap decision of what societal collapse is. I do think it involves more ways than that, though I would consider that one of the ways)

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

People get very upset about being forced or compelled. If you look up the terms "nonconsensual" and "forcible compulsion" in a law encyclopedia they're usually used in reference to a certain crime that disgusts and angers people to the extreme, and it is a crime against the body. We can generalize that and say that any nonconsensual or forcible thing done to the body of another is going to inspire the same feelings and cause that person to hate you, and being hated has consequences.
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The element of non-consensual matters involving women sometimes puzzles men, that it was such a 'big deal'. I'm reminded of an incident where a woman I was with [long story] needed to use a tiny gas station bathroom where the door didn't lock properly. She had no choice due to urgency and used it anyway. An employee came by and opened the door while she was in there finishing up, and subsequently was furiously complaining to me that she suspected this dude was a serial voyeur trying to catch when women were in there, knowing about the door.

She says "If I my pants had been down I would have charged him" . It was clear she meant charge him money,

She was joking, a great joke that made me laugh, but I think that also it was a glimpse into the female mind regarding these matters

CDC still recommends masks

Quote:

Wearing a mask can help lower the risk of respiratory virus transmission. When worn by a person with an infection, masks reduce the spread of the virus to others

\
\

I noticed because of the flooding disaster, Texas now does not allow cabins to be built in flood zones. I’d argue that’s how ethics guides public policy, I would even loosely label it a public health mandate. If people should violate it they should expect a penalty.

Societal stability would cease to exist if enough people started doing whatever they want based on their own judgment.

And if you want to be cynical you could argue it is only because of lawsuits. Although I think they would have passed something anyway this case.

* The law on cabins may only include ones rented to someone, but it still restricts a private person to act in what he or she might think is their best interest. I didn’t check to see if it is only rentals though.

I have split the discussion about credentials to a new thread called "Credentials needed for health discussions?" because it was off-topic to this thread. Please take your argument over the necessity/desirability of having credentials to this new thread.

The topic of this thread does include certain kinds of public health issues, but more broadly it is about "Events or Trends that may result in collapse of civilization services or extinction of the human species." Please stick to this topic (with no partisan political speech) or face potential actions by moderators.

Quote: seagulls

Quote: gordonm888

Suspension for 3 days for political speech. I was trying to be lenient but this and many of the preceding ChumpChange posts have been political speech.

No, you are not trying to be lenient. You keep making overtly political posts ("climate change isn't proven!")and then deleting the responses of any one who calls out your bs by abusing your moderator powers. This must be the fifth or six time you've banned someone for a flame war you started. You obviously get off on it some sick and perverse way.

You would have to be literally retarded not to expect mention of Trump or Biden given current events in the context of a thread like this. Yet you were telling everyone how super intelligent and qualified you were in the same thread.

I don't know why the wizard tolerates this, probably he lacks the emotional intelligence to pick up on this kind of subtle trolling/abuse of power, but it is both making you both very, very unpopular and there are consequences that go beyond this site if he keeps on ignoring it.
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Sock puppet much?

The Bad Experiment. A new and innovative experiment in fundamental physics which has a bad outcome that is completely unpredictable from existing science and destroys the planet.

Back when we first started playing with nukes, there was a concern that a nuclear detonation could trigger a chain reaction in the atmosphere, and that would be the end of us all. That concern has been repeated with each generation of more powerful weapons, and particle accelerators. No that can't happen, and those concerns are usually dismissed as hysteria and pseudoscience, but I am glad they are asked. For the time to ask such questions is before you destroy the universe, not after. The word experiment comes from Latin roots meaning "outside of the boundary," in this case meaning the boundary of knowledge, and it is never unreasonable to ask what might be out there before you go.

So that made me think about composing a science fiction story based on this principle, and I'll tell part of it to illustrate. A brilliant, prestigious chief scientist and his not-so-prestigious, working class, but also quite brilliant assistant (both of which, as in all fiction, are really the author!) are the protagonists, and they are working on this project- to access hidden energy, extra dimensions, [or whatever sci-fi tropes fit into the story] from the vacuum. The idea is based on and is a logical progression from their current state of science, it just required a big budget and facility, they got it, and it could lead to unlimited energy for us all, so they say.

It becomes a huge, international project much bigger than Apollo or any space program or any collider or telescope collaboration. Everyone is getting along, everything seems to be on schedule, until they start getting these setbacks. Weird malfunctions, unreliable data, just everything that can go wrong does, and nobody can figure it out. But our protagonists are watching, and collecting their own data...

One day they invite a fellow scientist on the project, a helpful and affable guy who had been mentioned a few times already in the book in different roles (who is also me!), into an office, and they lock and trap him in there, drawing their guns. This is the climax: the chief scientist tells this guy:
-we know we are being sabotaged
-we know it's you doing it
-we know you have powers not available on earth, so we know you must be extraterrestrial
-we know you are benevolent, and have a good reason for doing this.

Then he goes on the explain, in great detail, the observations and logical steps to conclusions he made which prove all four. (There are hints throughout the story that allow the reader to do that too.) This is a very long climax. But throughout, the visitor is grinning and eventually smiling ecstatically. Then he tells our scientists: "I was told this could happen, and I am honored and delighted that it has happened to me."

And he tells his part of the story: everything they concluded about him was true! A billion years ago, his ancestors on his home planet were at the same level technologically as Earth was in this story, and they also happened to have intelligent neighbors in the same system. That would be extremely rare, much rarer than intelligent life itself, but that's how it worked out. Both planets were friendly and had the same values, and in constant communication sharing their technology and culture. But one day, their neighbors' planet blew up, destroying all of them and a good portion of their own population too from the blast. (They do not have an "ansible," they got the blast exactly when they stopped receiving communications.) But being they knew all about their research up to that point, they figured out what they were doing at the time, how it went wrong, and eventually how to access this unlimited energy in a safe way, bypassing this Bad Experiment.

Many generations later, they are a hyperadvanced spacefaring civilization due to this capability they harnessed, and they travel around the universe meeting new civilizations, some more intelligent than others but none much more advanced than there were when they witnessed the catastrophe, and what they also find is the burned out hulls of planets, and they conclude that these are also civilizations that tried the Bad Experiment, but because having two civilizations close enough to communicate at that level is so rare there were no witnesses, and no one surviving to tell the tale and warn others. Because this is experiment is such a logical thing to do as you get advanced enough but there is no warning whatsoever from science up to that point, everybody eventually tries it and blows themselves up.

So they decide to make this their eternal mission as a species: to travel the universe and prevent species from doing this experiment. They have almost unlimited power and they are authorized to use as much as is necessary, including triggering a nuclear war which they will eventually recover from, unlike total annihilation which is the alternative. But once someone on that planet figures it all out on their own, especially realizing that they are benevolent, then they tell them the whole story and the secret, knowing the person hearing it has the intelligence and judgment to use it properly and not continue on the path to their destruction.

But here's the flaw in my story: once all this energy is available what stops some insane scientist, who is as petulant and hateful as a school shooter, from carrying out the Bad Experiment anyway and destroying the planet out of spite?

AutomaticMonkey,

When I read the outline of your proposed sci-fi novel, I was immediately reminded of a short story by Isaac Asimov entitled "The Dead Past", since both involved the destruction of a society: yours by annihilation, Asimov's by collapse.

Dog Hand

There is flooding in China and Pakistan unlike anything I've ever seen. Most videos are not on youtube and therefore can't be posted here in the forum.

This one has an "Oh s**t !" moment just a few seconds into it.

I haven't watched this entire video yet, but here is the thing. The Infographics Show is a popular and established YT channel. This kind of thing now is where the cable news channels were in the 1990s, namely "fringe of mainstream." Point being, kind of showing my point upthread that the issue will be getting bigger coverage in the years to come. Politically I still think it becomes a "by the way" issue in 2028 but a big issue in 2032 or 2036.

Quote: AZDuffman

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Fixifying the embed. t= codes have never worked with the embed.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AZDuffman

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Fixifying the embed. t= codes have never worked with the embed.
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Thanks and had no idea.

Quote: AZDuffman

Thanks and had no idea.
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Of course. It's nice to have an opportunity to do something other than sweep a floor. ;)

A new poll is out, I am trying to make this a non-political post on a political poll. Please all try to do the same.

Among Gen-Z men who voted for Trump, about 26% rate having children as "very important" to their success in life and was near the top of the list. Among the Gen-Z women who voted for Kamala, it is 9% and at the bottom. If we assume that both parts are about 60% of each group, which seems about how it came out, we can see that the Total Fertility Rate is going to fall further. Perhaps a lot further.

I find this interesting as women always seemed more wanting of kids than men. Yes, you had the guys who wanted to be the perfect father from a young age. But, really, women almost always drove the decisions.

Call 9% of 60% an even 6%. Leaves 54% of the women out there putting a very low priority on having kids. This group is in their mid-20s now, IOW, the most prime childbearing age. Since 2008 the USA fallen to about 1.6. I am thinking we are at 1.2-1.3 by the 2040s assuming no major events or efforts.

It's the economy, expletive.
In my 20's, every year I got older during the Reagan years, the average age to get married went up one year and it was the same age I was.
I'm being told by some YouTuber acquainted with facts that the population replacement value is 1.6 now and not the 1.9 the gov't believes it is. You need 2.1 to maintain the population size. But we have immigration and high rents, and people in their 20's cannot afford life in $3,000-$5,000/month apartments unless they are social media influencers or something.

Quote: ChumpChange

It's the economy, expletive.
In my 20's, every year I got older during the Reagan years, the average age to get married went up one year and it was the same age I was.
I'm being told by some YouTuber acquainted with facts that the population replacement value is 1.6 now and not the 1.9 the gov't believes it is. You need 2.1 to maintain the population size. But we have immigration and high rents, and people in their 20's cannot afford life in $3,000-$5,000/month apartments unless they are social media influencers or something.
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Could be that women today don't need to marry young and move from their parents home to her husbands home for financial security once women finished high school. Could be that, when given the choice, women today choose smaller families and sources of stable income independent of their spouse/husband. Could be that the large families of old were the result, in part, of lack of other options for women. Could be that nobody looks back fondly of generations past that lived in poverty or near poverty, caused in part by being a child of a large family with not enough food, clothes, heating oil and money to go around.

Everything trends for a while like fashion. Wars have lasted longer than the USA’s entire existence.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: ChumpChange

It's the economy, expletive.
In my 20's, every year I got older during the Reagan years, the average age to get married went up one year and it was the same age I was.
I'm being told by some YouTuber acquainted with facts that the population replacement value is 1.6 now and not the 1.9 the gov't believes it is. You need 2.1 to maintain the population size. But we have immigration and high rents, and people in their 20's cannot afford life in $3,000-$5,000/month apartments unless they are social media influencers or something.
link to original post

Could be that women today don't need to marry young and move from their parents home to her husbands home for financial security once women finished high school. Could be that, when given the choice, women today choose smaller families and sources of stable income independent of their spouse/husband. Could be that the large families of old were the result, in part, of lack of other options for women. Could be that nobody looks back fondly of generations past that lived in poverty or near poverty, caused in part by being a child of a large family with not enough food, clothes, heating oil and money to go around.
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The Boomers were the largest generation ever, and among the generations least exposed to poverty. Being sent to bed without dinner was uncommon enough to be used as a punishment.

How could that be? Oh that's right, they didn't have the crushing regulatory burden from the 60s and 70s and unrestrained Third World eemeegration making Third World norms their norms.

Quote: rxwine

Everything trends for a while like fashion. Wars have lasted longer than the USA’s entire existence.
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Rome and Persia engaged in a 700-year war that is rarely mentioned in most Western history books. It weakened both sides so much that they each lost their empires before this war concluded.

Quote: ChumpChange

It's the economy, expletive.
In my 20's, every year I got older during the Reagan years, the average age to get married went up one year and it was the same age I was.
I'm being told by some YouTuber acquainted with facts that the population replacement value is 1.6 now and not the 1.9 the gov't believes it is. You need 2.1 to maintain the population size. But we have immigration and high rents, and people in their 20's cannot afford life in $3,000-$5,000/month apartments unless they are social media influencers or something.
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You need to find better YT channels. You need 2.1 because you are replacing 2 parents. Mother-Father have 1.6 kids, does not replace the 2 of them. Immigration is not going to cut it as the rest of the world falls below 2.1, just makes some countries stave it off a few decades or less.

High rents are a problem for many reasons. One is that too many people refuse to start off small. And kids mean that you spend time with kids, you don't get to make trips to Vegas and you do not get to drive as nice of a car.

Women have been told for 60 years now that they are "wasting themselves" if they choose motherhood. Movies, TV Shows, pop culture, all over they have heard it. Changing that will not turn on a dime. It will take almost 2 generations to walk it back, if it can be, That takes us to about 2070, by which time the decline will be hurting hard.

Quote: AZDuffman

[

Women have been told for 60 years now that they are "wasting themselves" if they choose motherhood. Movies, TV Shows, pop culture, all over they have heard it. Changing that will not turn on a dime. It will take almost 2 generations to walk it back, if it can be, That takes us to about 2070, by which time the decline will be hurting hard.
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You're forgetting about home-based robot maids and cooks. Won't be nearly as much to do at home.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: ChumpChange

It's the economy, expletive.
In my 20's, every year I got older during the Reagan years, the average age to get married went up one year and it was the same age I was.
I'm being told by some YouTuber acquainted with facts that the population replacement value is 1.6 now and not the 1.9 the gov't believes it is. You need 2.1 to maintain the population size. But we have immigration and high rents, and people in their 20's cannot afford life in $3,000-$5,000/month apartments unless they are social media influencers or something.
link to original post

Could be that women today don't need to marry young and move from their parents home to her husbands home for financial security once women finished high school. Could be that, when given the choice, women today choose smaller families and sources of stable income independent of their spouse/husband. Could be that the large families of old were the result, in part, of lack of other options for women. Could be that nobody looks back fondly of generations past that lived in poverty or near poverty, caused in part by being a child of a large family with not enough food, clothes, heating oil and money to go around.
link to original post

The Boomers were the largest generation ever, and among the generations least exposed to poverty. Being sent to bed without dinner was uncommon enough to be used as a punishment.

How could that be? Oh that's right, they didn't have the crushing regulatory burden from the 60s and 70s and unrestrained Third World eemeegration making Third World norms their norms.
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Crushing regulatory burden gave us safer workplaces, safer drugs, more workplace rights, more civil rights for all and longer life expectancy. Maybe we need more?

Third World eemeegration allowed 4 generations of my family to achieve personal and financial success in the US. Men have served in the US Armed Forces and fought in foering wars.. When they came home, they started businesses or worked skilled jobs. Women raised children, who then went on to achieve their own success. If that's Thrid World norms, we need more norms like that.

If we loosen the child labor laws and do away with the minimum wage, we could eliminate the need for foreign labor and let families in poverty get multiple paychecks while eliminating the need for child care. Imagine if families went from paying $150 a week for childcare to making a few dollars a day for each kid. It would encourage more children if the family could count on another breadwinner in nine short years.
It would be a Golden Age and the end of poverty. Make Child Labor Kool Again!!!!!

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Being sent to bed without dinner was uncommon enough to be used as a punishment.
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(savagely truncated)

Nowadays, going to bed without dinner is "intermittent fasting".

New Mexico has become the first state in the Union to offer free child care to all its residents. It's estimated it will save families $12,000 a year.

Quote: billryan

If we loosen the child labor laws and do away with the minimum wage, we could eliminate the need for foreign labor and let families in poverty get multiple paychecks while eliminating the need for child care. Imagine if families went from paying $150 a week for childcare to making a few dollars a day for each kid. It would encourage more children if the family could count on another breadwinner in nine short years.
It would be a Golden Age and the end of poverty. Make Child Labor Kool Again!!!!!
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I agree! Traditional schooling is OK for some things, but the most valuable things I learned as a kid were in my forays into the adult world, working and doing real things. This is how I learned to never be afraid of doing hard things or an opportunity to learn something new, and learning became my favorite thing.

I'd like to eliminate public school and have factories be schools. They will have some traditional academics, but the kids would spend most of the time working alongside the adults, learning the industrial arts and practical skills. So by the time they are done with 8th grade, they will all know where things come from and how they work, and what is expected of adults. Not many kids have jobs these days and I think that's why they are staying perpetual children into adulthood.

Quote: billryan

New Mexico has become the first state in the Union to offer free child care to all its residents. It's estimated it will save families $12,000 a year.
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But how much will it cost them in taxes? Money isn't free.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

I'd like to eliminate public school and have factories be schools. They will have some traditional academics, but the kids would spend most of the time working alongside the adults, learning the industrial arts and practical skills. So by the time they are done with 8th grade, they will all know where things come from and how they work, and what is expected of adults. Not many kids have jobs these days and I think that's why they are staying perpetual children into adulthood.
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Work teaches you things. One place kids used to learn about life was paper routes. I had one and a buddy insisted it had to be an easy job, just drop off the papers. I put him in his place. People wanted their papers placed just so. Some in the door, some in a box below the mailbox. This door, that door. And you had to pay your route manager every week, or else.

"Customer wasn't home? Tough, PAY ME"
"It was raining and hard to collect? Tough, PAY ME"
"Mrs Googenheimer stiffed you? Tough, PAY ME!"

When I managed people later the stuff they would say and do to customers, I learned you could not do by age 13! I'm talking people in their 20s, 30s, even 40s!"

Some kids think school activities substitute for work when they go for a "real job." They don't.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

The Boomers were the largest generation ever, and among the generations least exposed to poverty. Being sent to bed without dinner was uncommon enough to be used as a punishment.

How could that be? Oh that's right, they didn't have the crushing regulatory burden from the 60s and 70s and unrestrained Third World eemeegration making Third World norms their norms.
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The period from about 1971-1975 totally changed the direction of the USA. Everything started becoming more regulated and more complicated. More and more "administrators" and when you get that you get more regulation for the sake of regulation. Because administrators have to show they are "doing something." Immigration patterns changed as well, that changed with the new laws in 1964 but was taking more and more hold by this period.

To thread topic, this is when we fell below replacement fertility. Causation is hard to show exactly, but correlation cannot be ignored.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: billryan

If we loosen the child labor laws and do away with the minimum wage, we could eliminate the need for foreign labor and let families in poverty get multiple paychecks while eliminating the need for child care. Imagine if families went from paying $150 a week for childcare to making a few dollars a day for each kid. It would encourage more children if the family could count on another breadwinner in nine short years.
It would be a Golden Age and the end of poverty. Make Child Labor Kool Again!!!!!
link to original post

I agree! Traditional schooling is OK for some things, but the most valuable things I learned as a kid were in my forays into the adult world, working and doing real things. This is how I learned to never be afraid of doing hard things or an opportunity to learn something new, and learning became my favorite thing.

I'd like to eliminate public school and have factories be schools. They will have some traditional academics, but the kids would spend most of the time working alongside the adults, learning the industrial arts and practical skills. So by the time they are done with 8th grade, they will all know where things come from and how they work, and what is expected of adults. Not many kids have jobs these days and I think that's why they are staying perpetual children into adulthood.
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Do let me know when the doctor you go to didn't go to med school, but just learned on the job.

Quote: billryan

New Mexico has become the first state in the Union to offer free child care to all its residents. It's estimated it will save families $12,000 a year.
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Free means nobody's paying for it? Of course somebody's paying for it, the taxpayers who don't have children will have to pay for it. Through their noses. The word free has lost all meaning in today's world. Even a hundred years ago they knew there was no free lunch.

"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" (TANSTAAFL) is a
phrase that describes the cost of decision-making and
consumption. TANSTAAFL suggests that things that appear
to be free will always have some hidden or implicit cost to
someone, even if it is not the individual receiving the benefit.

The word free means it's actually costing somebody something. Just not you probably.

Quote: KevinAA

Quote: billryan

New Mexico has become the first state in the Union to offer free child care to all its residents. It's estimated it will save families $12,000 a year.
link to original post

But how much will it cost them in taxes? Money isn't free.
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Expanding free care to all residents, rather than limiting it by income, is estimated to cost $ 120 million a year. New Mexico has a fund financed by taxes on oil leases that currently holds over ten billion dollars. The residents will receive their care, and out-of-state corporations will largely fund it.