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PaulEWog
PaulEWog
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 110
Joined: Jan 2, 2010
January 5th, 2011 at 9:29:44 AM permalink
I’m not a particularly active poster but I am an avid reader of this and other gambling related forums. When Jerry Logan appeared at Wizard of Vegas, (WOV) it didn’t take long before it seemed like Déjà vu all over again[1] . The style and wording of the posts, along with the subject matter, seemed eerily familiar. Even though I recognized the signs back in July, I never said anything about it because it is nearly impossible to “prove” someone is using an alias, in part due to the fact that isolated similarities can easily be dismissed as having a logical basis. However, when similarities cross a wider spectrum of time, fora, and identities a clearer picture can begin to emerge. In a criminal trial the standard for conviction is “beyond a reasonable doubt” while in a civil trial it is usually “by a preponderance of the evidence”. For something of this nature I’d suggest that the latter is more appropriate than the former.

I do play mostly VP but I’m not exactly an “advantage player”. I try to play proficiently and to find the best games available, but I don’t care much about points or squeaking the last bit of value every play. I don’t really have a problem with at least some of Rob’s theories and while I don’t know enough about them to say I’d actually endorse them the idea of win and loss goals and a strategy to maximize your potential sounds somewhat reasonable to me. The devil, of course, is in the details. On some of the others, such as programmed in non-randomness, I’m significantly more skeptical.

While I don’t have a problem with him in general, I am concerned about the possibility that has used other aliases to promote his agenda. I take a fairly dim view of anyone who adopts sock puppets to strengthen their own arguments, and the potential that has to negatively affect others. I believe it also lessens the credibility of anyone that uses the tactic; a good idea shouldn’t need “outside” promotion to show its merits. In the last few days Rob has alluded to the fact that he is not Jerry, and has also previously stated: "I have never, ever been on any forum under an alias where I did not identify myself up front if I was not using my name."[2] This post isn’t about Rob or his theories; it is just an attempt to complete that “bigger picture” in which each individual reader can make their own informed judgment on whether his statement above is true.

I would guess that many people that have read more than one VP forum can spot at least some of the similarities used by Jerry Logan, (“JL”) and posters who are suspected of being alias’s of Rob Singer, (“RS”). There is a tendency to capitalize entire words, especially when they are digs at other people. There are personal insults, often done as either lone comments or one final line at the end of the post, along with claims of his superiority in putting his opponents down. When he is a new poster there is initially a period where the he claims to know little about Rob or his system, which usually grows into prolific posts about the details of both the man and the system. There is also great scorn for “advantage players”, (especially the “pro’s), and the frequent use of terms such as “jealousy”, “envy”, “denial”, and “pathological”. And lastly there is an overt conservative bias that flows through a wide variety of his posts. This is but a small fraction of the clues that exist, but they serve as a good basis for analyzing the possible existence of alternative personalities.

JL joined WOV on or about 6/28/10. On June 5th[3] The Wizard made a forum post that included the line: “If so, this sounds like the Rob Singer theory.” In his third post on WOV JL opined:

"I'm throwing this out: Why is it that whenever anyone brings up an odd issue with the vp machines, they're accused of being a troll, being Singer, being drunk, or being plain confused?” [4]

He went on to write:

“I've played video poker for about 20 or so years, and while I bought into the "legit" and "everything's on the up&up 100% of the time" (or at least the way we think things should be from what we read on the Internet) the more I played the more I realized there's so many oddities that it's not just coincidence any more.”

In another post on the same thread a few days later he stated:

“I'm not much into Singer's strategy so again, all I can rely on is what I glean from reading. With all due respect, you sound jealous.”

On July 4th he posted:

“I don't personally know anyone here, but what I do know is how important a role denial plays in pathological gamblers.” [5]

So within a week and 33 posts JL has hit a trifecta of Singer talking points: jealousy, pathological gamblers, and denial, as well as the implication that machines are not random. For a “new” poster that was remarkable, and sounded quite similar to another alias that posted at the Las Vegas Advisor, (“LVA”), at the end of 2009 and into 2010, “BanjoJerry”, (“BJ”). In his very first post at LVA on 12/11/09 BJ opened with a one line zinger:

“After reading through quite a few threads before I joined, I have to say that you seem to post for provocative reasons only. It's either that, or you're a lonely old man who comes up short on sex overall.” [6]

On 1/19/10 a thread that started with a simple VP question soon turned into one debating Rob Singer where on the 4th post BJ stated:

“I thought that too until I read on his site where he says he plays somewhere around 95% math-perfect on the games in his strategy. He purposely deviates the rest of the time in order to enhance his chances of certain deals when the give isn't deemed to be that much of a give if there's an opportunity to score big.”

The thread went on for 4 pages and included this line from one post by BJ on page 3 dated 1/24/10:

“Please don't misread this, but I think you're showing a lack of reading with comprehension skills that may be brought on by being a little mesmerized over a dislike of Singer and jealousy over his claims of winning.”

The astute readers may at this point be saying to themselves, “Well that’s nice, but it doesn’t PROVE this is the same person”. True, but perhaps this might sway your opinion. When talking about other people and their true names he stated:

“Mine's Jerry Logan” [7]

The LVA doesn’t announce when people are banned, but BJ’s last post occurred around 3/17/10 after 4 months and 462 posts. This thread “Rob Singer's Method” may also be of interest to readers, and went on for a formidable 342 posts. Many of those posts, as well as many more in other threads, did far more than state a few of Singer’s theories; they outlined just about every aspect of the theories and Rob’s entire life. And that makes it more difficult to understand and accept the claim he posted in early July at WOV that “I'm not much into Singer's strategy”.

On 4/28/10 “JackTheStripper”, (JTS), made his appearance that the LVA free for all. His tenure at LVA wasn’t all that remarkable, but by 4/30/10 in a thread with the title “what's your PATTERN in VP??” [8] the “Singer haters” started to peg him as another sock puppet, perhaps in part due to this post:

“Are you saying everyone who believes they see a repetitive situation is wrong about it?”

Then:

“I've heard of people saying they've beaten vp, some rather heftily.”

He claimed to be primarily a slot player, and that he didn’t trust VP. JTS’s largest contribution probably comes from this thread. I’ll just sprinkle in a few of JTS’s choice comments:

“I rested my case about vp players hours ago but just look at how it's affected them! Is it any wonder they band together to protect their secret addiction to playing so much? How's this for another hard look: Everyone who plays video poker regularly is a gambling addict.”

“Money, these guys have piqued my interest in who singer is so I googled him and he has a site, very interesting I might add and even more interesting to someone like you who plays that game.”

And I believe this may have been his last post there:

“I think all you guys did was expose your anguish and yourselves to everyone else for just how far you'd go to make me be your the love child your so obsessed with …”

It was one day shy of a month, and 219 posts. A little less than a month later, on 6/28/10, JL showed up at WOV. Probably just as interesting as JTS’s final thread was what RS had to say about it at VPTruth[9] about 2 months later. In this article RS attacks most of the same people that JTS attacked in that thread, and also posts this about one of them:

“But none of that stops her from bad-mouthing me, and I have no idea as to why she does that. Yet, watch and see how disturbed she gets whenever I slap back!”

How could he “slap back” and watch “how disturbed she gets” unless he was JTS? I suspect RS will try to spin this as he was “slapping back” through either VPTruth or his video’s but 1) I’ve read enough of her posts to know she is highly unlikely to ever voluntarily read or listen to anything he says and 2) even if she did, how could anyone “watch and see” her reaction to it? The more logical explanation is that this was an accidental tacit admission that he was indeed JTS.

And that brings us near, but not quite to, the end. Rather than continue with the long diatribe in what is already a post of epic length, I thought I’d conclude with the best source of all: their own words on a variety of topics. Besides JL, BJ, JTS and the words of RS, we’ll also add “BabyBubba”, (“BB”, the admitted alias of Rob Singer at Videopoker.com), to the mix. The following quotes are only a partial list of some of the topics that are frequently encountered, with many being words or terms that are not used very frequently outside of these quotes.

----------------------------------Jealousy---------------------------

BB: 5/15/07 [10]

"The more I say the more jealous oewhatever gets. Seems he's a bit over the edge lately. Everything allright at home oe?? Would you like a ride in this thing....or is your chubby butt only used to sitting at nickel machines"

BB: 5/23/07 [11]

"I could easily get any or all of these jokers suspended for good with a few more digs and humiliations, more truth, and a whole lot of common sense. That, coupled with the obvious jealousy over me, easily turns the most disciplined man into melted butter."

BJ: 1/24/10[12]

"Please don't misread this, but I think you're showing a lack of reading with comprehension skills that may be brought on by being a little mesmerized over a dislike of Singer and jealousy over his claims of winning."

RS-VPT: 2/11/10[13]

"An interesting note came to me from another player earlier this week. He?s a member of videopoker.com, and he said that ever since a poster named Johnnymustang (I think that?s it) smacked down the vile Singer-hater and ultimate jealous soul OEJ719 a few months ago, OEJ has vanished!"

BJ: 2/25/10[14]

"Has anybody ever proven absolutely that he "weaseled in under another identity" ever? I look at this and see more Rob Singer hate/jealousy/confusion???"

JL: 10/7/10[15]

"He has several stalkers who seek out any of his supporters (and you can tell it's out of terrible jealousy)"

JL: 10/7/10[16]

"Looks and smells like jealousy and misrepresnetations galore. We see that time and again all over the forums whenever Singer's name appears."

JL: 10/8/10[17]

"And just as we see here, that's exactly when the name-calling and claims of "liar and fraud" begin out of ignorance and, of course, jealousy."

JL: 11/26/10[18]

"That's what you get when you don't have the facts and listen to the envious. Sort of like the blind leading the blind, only with a side order of jealousy"

RS-WOV: 1/3/10[19]

"If there's one thing that's always remained constant over the years it's how I learned that winners do not mind other winners, while losers utterly despise them and it's always out of jealousy. Always”

------------------------------- Jealousy over wins -------------------

BB: 5/4/10[20]

"Is There A Limit...
....to how much I'm allowed to force shadow to manufacture lies about me?? Just imagine how jealous he must be over the $50,000 I won at Caesar's last week! He's giving it the silent treatment because just reading about it drives a huge stake thru his weakened heart. But the day is saved! He'll say "but gee Rob, I don't care how much you win or lose". Which of course, is something I make him say."

JL: 12/14/10[21]

"Oh, notice how MKL's stayed away from this thread? Imagine the PAIN he felt as he looked at a JL one dollar royal! Absolutely PRICELESS!! "


---------------------------------------Envy-----------------------------------

BB: 5/16/07[22]

"Rather, you'll find the type of envy you see here anywhere that I post, because remember, these forums are made up of gamblers, and by definition most have the weakness of being very addicted, and just about everyone but the extremely lucky lose. Many times because of these issues you'll find anger incorporated among the multiple aliases used by those who love to hate to love me. At the same time you'll see a few infected whiners come on and make believe no one ever learns from me, yet at the same time as soon as anyone joins a post even partially agreeing with my points, that hurts the Singer-haters so much that they then claim it's really me using an alias. Which of course warms my heart over with their obvious internal struggles. "

BJ: 3/7/10[23]

"Yes there'll be ap's who don't like that reasoning and might even be more envious of him for the way he's able to collect all that free-play with so little play when they waste all their time doing the same."

JL: 10/6/10[24]

"But again, just like I've seen on the forums when the envious get involved and are awfully angry over the guy, they focus is on things like this and not on his actual gaming resume that I posted previously"

JL: 11/1/10[25]

"All I'm gonna say to your ridiculous, envy-loaded ramble is that ddbp is not Singer's favorite game and in fact he told me he rarely plays it if two more capable games FOR HIS STRATEGY's SUCCESS are available. I believe those are super double, and triple plus. But you are the MASTER of making things up, aren't you."

RS: 3/26/10[26]

"I learned right then and there that when you allow anybody an alias the ability to remain anonymous while spewing their hatred, and if you toss in a good dose of how you are able to beat the machines like no other player has ever done, the envy flows like pressurized steam from their fingertips."

JL: 11/26/10[27]

"MKL, the reason you envy Singer so much is you are unable to decipher his strategies, and you can't figure out the complexities in order to do what you do best: Make up things about things as you type"

JL: 11/26/10[28]

"That's what you get when you don't have the facts and listen to the envious. Sort of like the blind leading the blind, only with a side order of jealousy"

JL: 12/6/10[29]

"Isn't it interesting how questions of truth always appear if the hated winner wins! Lose, and they all believe you; but WIN, and the only thing known for sure is the picks that were made. I call it the "MKL Syndrome". 100% pure envy, followed by 100% pure denial.... "

RS: 12/18/10[30]

"I'm not sure why he doesn't want it to have been that Jerry did get that $1 royal, but I can only guess from his previous confused comments that he's envious."

RS: 12/23/10[30]

"Your last sentence is just another one of your envious lies."


----------------------------------pathological----------------------------

BB: 4/30/09[32]

"You forgot--I sent you a book that describes your pathological addiction to playing the game"

BB: 5/4/07[33]

"he flubbed that up by allowing video poker to turn him into a pathological gambler who HAS to spend the majority of his free time playing."

RS: 12/1/09[34]

"That's why advantage play is nothing more than a continuous state of mind...one that leads every one of these type players into becoming pathological gamblers chasing casino-owned mathematics. "

BJ: 2/25/10[35]

"There's another word for these people: PATHOLOGICAL GAMBLERS."

JL: 7/4/10[36]

"I don't personally know anyone here, but what I do know is how important a role denial plays in pathological gamblers."

JL: 7/2/2010[37]

"I believe anyone who plays on-line at unregulated, totally unaccountable sites is stupid. Yet they are very good at justifying what is truly an incomprehensible action. I mean pathological gambling problem."

------------------------------------Denial------------------------------

BB: 5/23/07[38]

"People know if they're pathologically addicted but you'll get nothing but denial day and night when it's brought up"

RS: 12/12/09[39]

"Nowhere do we find such overwhelming vice than in the world of gambling, but the only vice more powerful than problem gambling is DENIAL"

JL: 7/4/10[40]

"I don't personally know anyone here, but what I do know is how important a role denial plays in pathological gamblers."

JL: 10/29/10[41]

"If only you could post something like that on the vp boards where all these self-announced AP's hang out....and not be hit with denial after denial after denial at every turn."

---------------------------------The woodshed-----------------------------

RS: 1/18/10[42]

"It is what he and that posse do on that site every single time they start to get taken out to the woodshed and always end up being owned whenever they turn on the Singer hatred."

RS: 3/31/10[43]

"After all, I've taken the neurotic old clown out to the woodshed all over the Internet for years now, so I see why he wanted it to be me"

JTS: 5/25/10[44]

"Whether you consider me a liar for resembling what you think of him doesn't matter to me. What does is how Curtis took you out to the woodshed in that other thread the past few days, and you learned not one thing from it."

RS: 8/8/10[45]
"I guess I should be thankful that he was so easy to belittle, but the way I already toss arcimedes around from woodshed to woodshed kind of makes this clown look like he deserves a dozen more chances! "

JL: 10/2/10[46]
"I've read some of your short history here, and you've been taken out to the woodshed more than once."

JL: 10/27/10[47]

"All that matters is your neurotic need to assert anything just to make believe you know something about everything. And regardless of your scramble to save your ass, you got taken out to the woodshed again in this thread. All too common, hey?"

------------------------------------Know it all------------------------

BB: 4/30/07[48]

"Somebody telling Mr. Know-it-all he really doesn't know it all"

BJ: 3/14/10[49]

"Accepting defeat at the hands of people who don't claim to know-it-all like poor arCimedes wants people to believe about him, sure is tough"

JL: 10/16/10[50]

"mkl654321 or whatever your anonymous name is, why do you have to pretend to be a know-it-all on every thread? How long do you think it takes educated people to see what you do?"

JL: 10/16/10[51]

"Isn't this typical of lonely old know-it-alls? They just can't STAND when someone else makes more sense than them, and they absolutely hate it when someone sneaks in the last word."

--------------------------------- Smarter---------------------------

BB: 5/7/07[52]

"Keep in mind, shadow isn't easy with the fact that he recognizes I'm smarter than anyone he's ever run into, and he CERTAINLY has trouble with the fact that I'm his daddy."

JTS: 4/19/10[53]
"I'm just smarter than those other guys. But they'll get over it. "

JL: 7/20/10[54]

"I'm living proof even the most intelligent of people can still learn something now and then."

JL: 8/1/10[55]

"If I weren't the smartest poster here I'd buy that first para."

----------------------------Intimidated into tipping---------------------------

BB: 4/25/07[56]

"There's absolutely no reason to tip people who pay hand pays. Only those who are intimidated do so"

BB: 4/26/07[57]

"In an industry where most players are intimidated into tipping--be it the glares from the cashier after cashing in a ticket or the irritable last hundred given out in 20's & 10's on handpays--explicit reasons from the industry spokespeople must be given to support their positions."

BJ: 12/11/09[58]

“To me if you tip people who pay you for gambling then you're only doing so out of weakness and nothing more.”

JL: 7/4/10[59]

"People always seem afraid or reluctant to admit it, but inside casinos we're intimidated into tipping."

JL: 7/11/10[60]

"What no one will admit to is how they're intimidated into tipping those people by the envelopes left in the room signed "Maria" or "Ruzella .... Tipping these non-service people is only done out of personal weakness, poor self-confidence, and insecurities."

JL: 11/13/10[61]

"I was the only one who wasn't intimidated into tipping also. I see no reason to just hand over your money when it won't make a lick of difference either way. If you need the dealer to be friendly to you so as to build your feelgood level, you're a weak player with no self-confidence"

JL: 12/30/10[62]

"You also likely tip out of intimidation like most AP's end up doing, and he gets remembered for being smart and NOT tipping, again unlike AP's who look for someone to hold their hand while gambling.”

---------------------------Random zingers-----------------------------

BB: 5/2/07[63]

"I LOVE to repeatedly slap down the weak when they're trying so hard to get up."

BB: 5/4/07[64]

"God, I enjoy watching this guy make a fool of himself......"

BJ: 3/7/10[65]

"That's what being wreckless and acting like a low-life gets you. Learn from it."

JTS: 5/16/07[66]

"Oh, I know you'll do anything not to answer clearly so you can pretend you're not stepping into the hole you dug for yourself, but i'm here to expose that kind of stuff about you"

RS: 3/31/10[67]

"Yes, pushing his buttons does have its sparkling moments."

JL: 7/16/10[68]

"That article was in reference to anyone who wins an argument, and celebrated the pain and sufferring of those who don't."

JL: 10/16/10[69]

"Act like a man for a change and stop acting like a whiny old fart. And we get it, you couldn't help yourself....again!"

JL: 11/22/10[70]

"At first glance I see someone who's irritated with me. That's good. I enjoy frustrating those of lesser value. "

And one final quote I found to be quite interesting:

RS-VPT: 4/15/10[71]

“My opinion on that is the guy's simply a very jealous person, and not only because of these "plays". He craves the attention and audience the gurus have, and until he gets it he won't rest.”

I’ll leave it to the reader to ascertain why…


-----------------------------------footnotes---------------------------------------
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra
[2] “Funny How Things That Go Around Always Do Come Around, 8/6/2010
[3]WOV
[4] WOV
[5] WOV
[6] LVA
[7] LVA
[8] LVA
[9] “Funny How Things That Go Around Always Do Come Around”, 8/6/10
[10] Videopoker.com
[11] Videopoker.com
[12] LVA
[13] VPTruth
[14] LVA
[15] WOV
[16] WOV
[17] WOV
[18] WOV
[19] WOV
[20] Videopoker.com
[21] WOV
[22] LVA
[24] WOV
[25] WOV
[26] VPTruth
[27] WOV
[28] WOV
[29] WOV
[30] WOV
[31] WOV
[32] Videopoker.com
[33] Videopoker.com
[34] VPTruth
[35] LVA
[36] WOV
[37] WOV
[38] Videopoker.com
[39] VPTruth
[40] WOV
[41] WOV
[42] VPTruth
[43] VPTruth
[44] LVA
[45] VPTruth
[46] WOV
[47] WOV
[48] Videopoker.com
[49] LVA
[50] WOV
[51] WOV
[52] Videopoker.com
[53] WOV
[54] WOV
[55] WOV
[56] Videopoker.com
[57] Videopoker.com
[58] LVA
[59] WOV
[60] WOV
[61] WOV
[62] WOV
[63] Videopoker.com
[64] Videopoker.com
[65] LVA
[66] Videopoker.com
[67] VPTruth
[68] WOV
[69] WOV
[70] WOV
[71] VPTruth
FinsRule
FinsRule
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January 5th, 2011 at 9:57:42 AM permalink
Least surprising thing I've read all day.
mkl654321
mkl654321
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January 5th, 2011 at 10:03:31 AM permalink
Wow, you did a lot of work. More than enough evidence to secure not only a civil, but a criminal conviction--I think we're well beyond the shadow of a doubt.

As JL's favorite target here, I'd also like to note something that is hardly coincidental: "JerryLogan"'s most intense vitriol started to be spewed at me when I first criticized "Rob Singer". I continue to be Singer's most vocal critic, and "JerryLogan" continues to aim a flood of diarrhea at me. Those two things are not merely coincidental.

Thank you for your hard work in exposing this fraud--whatever his actual name or identity may be. I hope this info can be spread far and wide--that the purveyor of the Magical Singer VP System is a lying cheat, and has been so for years.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
FarFromVegas
FarFromVegas
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January 5th, 2011 at 10:18:31 AM permalink
I can't say I know enough about either of the two to make a judgment, but I have to say your research is pretty thorough, and if you enjoy classic detective fiction I'd recommend Plot it Yourself, a Nero Wolfe novel by Rex Stout. A murderer is caught by analyzing writings in a similar manner.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts. Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard 
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January 5th, 2011 at 11:12:56 AM permalink
Props are deserving for what is probably the most carefully prepared post in WoV history. That would have taken me at least two days to put together. A very well organized and documented case -- I'm very impressed.

What I think a skeptic would say is maybe JL is such a fan and good friend of RS that he has picked up his key arguments, words, and mannerisms. If you're around someone long enough that will tend to happen, especially if you try. What comes to mind is the episode of Seinfeld where George became so enamored of Elaine's rock-climbing boyfriend that George tried to mimic him in every way he could imagine.

As I've said before, a technical look into this issue was inconclusive. As I recall, when I met Singer I tried to bring up sports betting, but he didn't seem very interested in the topic. Jerry, on the other hand, has posted quite a bit on his NFL picks. Speaking for myself only, I still have a reasonable doubt.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
TheNightfly
TheNightfly
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January 5th, 2011 at 11:51:18 AM permalink
I have my doubts as well as to whether or not JL is RS but you've left at least one option out of the poll.

5) They are both twits who crave attention and why do we even bother to feed their egos? Let's simply not respond to anything either has to say as we are bound to get sucked into the black hole of unreality (RS) and childish name calling (JL) if we do.
Happiness is underrated
avargov
avargov
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January 5th, 2011 at 12:27:22 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Props are deserving for what is probably the most carefully prepared post in WoV history. That would have taken me at least two days to put together. A very well organized and documented case -- I'm very impressed.

What I think a skeptic would say is maybe JL is such a fan and good friend of RS that he has picked up his key arguments, words, and mannerisms. If you're around someone long enough that will tend to happen, especially if you try. What comes to mind is the episode of Seinfeld where George became so enamored of Elaine's rock-climbing boyfriend that George tried to mimic him in every way he could imagine.

As I've said before, a technical look into this issue was inconclusive. As I recall, when I met Singer I tried to bring up sports betting, but he didn't seem very interested in the topic. Jerry, on the other hand, has posted quite a bit on his NFL picks. Speaking for myself only, I still have a reasonable doubt.



The only thing I could add to that is when JL was 2-1 he really only blew his own horn about it and how we were all jealous and fleas.

After the infamous AZ-STL 0-2 debacle, he pretty much stopped picking games but reminded us all that he made 872 billion on that one game.

So I am not sure that JL is all that much of a sportsbettor. He got lucky a couple of times and then it caught up at a tidy 40%. But, of.course, the huge win was much more than the losses. Kinda sounds like an RS response to me when I asked abouthis 85% win claim.

Not long ago, I believe he stated that JL was among the highest, if not the highest, roller on this forum. And we are all fleas. Of course, there have only been 5 bets and all.

After looking at the OP's evidence, I have to say that it appears to be the same guy. Wiz, my man, I fear you are being duped.

And on a sidenote, I know for a fact that JL is not in the position at his job that he claims on here. Guess you never know who you might run in to in the real world....
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
weaselman
weaselman
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January 5th, 2011 at 12:28:40 PM permalink
I never had any doubt that JL = RS, but not sure what is the point in proving it or voting for it. Some people like to take even money in BJ, others enjoy making forum posts under two different names. Why not?
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
thlf
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January 5th, 2011 at 12:51:36 PM permalink
Quote: weaselman

I never had any doubt that JL = RS, but not sure what is the point in proving it or voting for it. Some people like to take even money in BJ, others enjoy making forum posts under two different names. Why not?



RS has done this in many many different forums. Check out the former Vegas Rex, now Seattle Rex forum. Rex runs an extremely loose environment and RS absolutely ran roughshod over anyone he could there. Even to the point of violent threats. I really think in the WOV case he is looking at his ultimate challenge of duping the best of the best. Not just the Wiz, but most of you who participate in this forum.

As far as sports betting goes, if RS website is still running check it out. There were 2 incomplete years where he said he was going to now show all of the so called pro's what an amateur can do in sports betting. Both years were a failure and he gave it up.
thlf
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January 5th, 2011 at 1:09:48 PM permalink
From RS website

The Singer Five - NFL 2009
Betting has been suspended for this NFL season due to rotten results. My plan was to stop if I lost my 2009 vp winnings of $10,800, but since I also won $6000 in vp recently then I'm quitting while ahead in gambling this year $11,600 overall. I proved my point the past 2 betting years in the NFL, and I'll not be back doing it. Final 2009 NFL totals: 24-35-1/-$5140; 41%. Truly pitiful


There used to be a lot more but it has all been removed.
matilda
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January 5th, 2011 at 1:30:18 PM permalink
JL said on WOV, speaking of Singer:

Oct. 7, 2010 "I bought both of his books."

Oct. 29, 2010 "He recently sent me both to me at no charge."
TheNightfly
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January 5th, 2011 at 1:32:54 PM permalink
Quote: matilda

JL said on WOV, speaking of Singer:

Oct. 7, 2010 "I bought both of his books."

Oct. 29, 2010 "He recently sent me both to me at no charge."


The plot thickens...
Happiness is underrated
SOOPOO
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January 5th, 2011 at 1:35:33 PM permalink
Quote: avargov

I know for a fact that JL is not in the position at his job that he claims on here.



And how do you know this?
Mosca
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January 5th, 2011 at 2:27:42 PM permalink
Quote: thlf

RS has done this in many many different forums. Check out the former Vegas Rex, now Seattle Rex forum. Rex runs an extremely loose environment and RS absolutely ran roughshod over anyone he could there. Even to the point of violent threats. I really think in the WOV case he is looking at his ultimate challenge of duping the best of the best. Not just the Wiz, but most of you who participate in this forum.

As far as sports betting goes, if RS website is still running check it out. There were 2 incomplete years where he said he was going to now show all of the so called pro's what an amateur can do in sports betting. Both years were a failure and he gave it up.



If this is so, then it is evidence of a sociopathic personality disorder, IMO. This would be a person who has met with Mr Shackleford, spent a pleasant afternoon discussing gaming, played some machines for a while, and then left on apparently good terms... then coming here under a pseudonym and crapping up his forums. Normal folks just don't do that sort of thing.
A falling knife has no handle.
avargov
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January 5th, 2011 at 3:12:16 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

And how do you know this?



Let's just say that I happen to work in the same industry in the same region. I don't think I need to divulge much more. But I have posted many times that I am a driver for a very large publicly traded company who only runs the western eleven states.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
matilda
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January 5th, 2011 at 3:22:19 PM permalink
JL on November 19, 2010 on WOV:

"I work from home."
PaulEWog
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January 5th, 2011 at 4:21:56 PM permalink
Quote: matilda

JL said on WOV, speaking of Singer:

Oct. 7, 2010 "I bought both of his books."

Oct. 29, 2010 "He recently sent me both to me at no charge."



BanjoJerry also claimed to have received a book on 1/21/10: "he is sending me his first book free of charge"

This is another interesting contradiction from WOV:

11/4/10: "Terribles, Ellis Island, and all those absolute DUMPS in the downtown cesspool....how the f*** can anyone come to LV for a few days vacation or whatever and stay or even look forward to being at shitholes like those? Have you no dignity?"

11/8/10: "I don't believe in free speech when it's vulgar, and only vulgar people say it's OK."

11/13/10: "Wizard, insults are a part of life, and profanity is a part of a low-life. You're better than this. I don't allow profanity at all and I have a zero tolerance policy with the drivers that I speak to on the phone or radio or am personally around."

As for sports betting, he was apparently a member of LVA Sports, at least according to this thread that announces he was banned:Farewell, Rob Singer. The comments are interesting, including this one from what I believe was a moderator:
"While Singer can sometimes be mildly amusing, he is the very definition of an internet troll. Combining all his aliases, he has over 10k posts on this forum alone, with the majority merely hijacks into political rubbish."
SanchoPanza
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January 5th, 2011 at 4:38:49 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

The plot thickens...


It's pure sludge now.
Calder
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January 5th, 2011 at 5:26:44 PM permalink
I imagine he (they) enjoys everyone debating the question.
Croupier
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January 6th, 2011 at 4:23:05 AM permalink
Well you know how the saying goes, "Any publicity is good publicity"
[This space is intentionally left blank]
petro
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January 6th, 2011 at 6:08:00 AM permalink
That has got to be the longest single post I have ever read.
With references too.
Congrats PaulEWog.
thlf
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January 6th, 2011 at 6:43:56 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

If this is so, then it is evidence of a sociopathic personality disorder, IMO. This would be a person who has met with Mr Shackleford, spent a pleasant afternoon discussing gaming, played some machines for a while, and then left on apparently good terms... then coming here under a pseudonym and crapping up his forums. Normal folks just don't do that sort of thing.




If you have any doubts just read this thread, especially all of RS parts. It is definitely the sign of a sociopathic personality disorder.



http://www.vegasrex.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11431
Mosca
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January 6th, 2011 at 7:05:22 AM permalink
Quote: thlf

If you have any doubts just read this thread, especially all of RS parts. It is definitely the sign of a sociopathic personality disorder.



http://www.vegasrex.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11431



OK, in vegasrex his writing style is exactly the same as Logan's.
A falling knife has no handle.
teddys
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January 8th, 2011 at 10:51:46 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

OK, in vegasrex his writing style is exactly the same as Logan's.

He also says the exact same thing about the four-cylinder engine being a girly car.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Wizard
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January 8th, 2011 at 4:09:10 PM permalink
I just lifted Rob's suspension. However, he told me by PM that he does not plan to return. I believe he meant that ultimatum to be quoted in public, so I don't think I'm breaking my own rule about quoting from private communication.

The reason he is resigning is mostly in protest that I didn't punish mkl for calling Rob Singer a fraud, while punishing himself and Jerry for other personal insults. The reason I didn't punish mkl was that he put a lot of evidence behind it, while Rob and Jerry resorted to unsubstantiated insults.

To avoid such slippery slopes in the future, I am no longer going to allow personal insults of forum members and their immediate family (especially their wives), even if evidence is submitted to justify the insult. My policy is you may attack the writing, but not writer, outside of the FSZ. I'm going to call this the Rob Singer rule, in his honor.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MathExtremist
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January 8th, 2011 at 4:22:16 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

To avoid such slippery slopes in the future, I am no longer going to allow personal insults of forum members and their immediate family (especially their wives), even if evidence is submitted to justify the insult. My policy is you may attack the writing, but not writer, outside of the FSZ. I'm going to call this the Rob Singer rule, in his honor.



That's an even slipperier slope, methinks. I've used the phrase "system huckster" in the past, hardly a positive appellation -- would I merit a suspension under your new policy? What constitutes an insult is very much in the eye of the beholder, and neither you or the US government have ever recognized a "right to not be offended". Be careful that you don't clamp down on speech so much that you end up suspending everyone.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
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January 8th, 2011 at 4:29:08 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I just lifted Rob's suspension. However, he told me by PM that he does not plan to return..



Gosh, what a shock. But take heart, his doppleganger Jerry will be back soon for more good times until he gets banned for a month for his next offense. Always something to look forward to.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RonC
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January 8th, 2011 at 4:32:27 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

That's an even slipperier slope, methinks. I've used the phrase "system huckster" in the past, hardly a positive appellation -- would I merit a suspension under your new policy? What constitutes an insult is very much in the eye of the beholder, and neither you or the US government have ever recognized a "right to not be offended". Be careful that you don't clamp down on speech so much that you end up suspending everyone.



Suspend ANYONE who offends YOU, Wizard. There is no sense in trying to split hairs on the rules--if someone says something that offends you, boot them. I am not saying we should not discuss, disagree, express opinions, etc.--I just think we need less time spent on rulings and more time spent on driving this forum back to the great place it was before certain people that some would call "trolls" came along.

It is your forum and it is up to you what you should allow.
MathExtremist
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:02:54 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

It is your forum and it is up to you what you should allow.


I agree, but that's why I think it's better to have a moderator act as a moderator (on a case-by-case basis) rather than trying to enact and then enforce a strict set of rules. It'd be a shame if you got suspended for calling someone a troll, for example.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
mkl654321
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:13:47 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The reason he is resigning is mostly in protest that I didn't punish mkl for calling Rob Singer a fraud, while punishing himself and Jerry for other personal insults. The reason I didn't punish mkl was that he put a lot of evidence behind it, while Rob and Jerry resorted to unsubstantiated insults.

To avoid such slippery slopes in the future, I am no longer going to allow personal insults of forum members and their immediate family (especially their wives), even if evidence is submitted to justify the insult. My policy is you may attack the writing, but not writer, outside of the FSZ. I'm going to call this the Rob Singer rule, in his honor.



So I assume that when Singer returns as JerryLogan, you will hold him to these new standards? If so, he'll last about half a day. And I strongly suspect that the real reason Singer has decided to no longer grace us with his presence (at least as "Rob Singer") is that this forum has been a pretty barren hunting ground for him. There just aren't enough credulous people here to be worth his while.

I'd like to know what exactly constitues an "insult". Is it saying anything critical about anyone? Would "Hitler was a bad man" be considered an insult? Would "John Candy is fat" be considered an insult? Also, does the rule only apply to forum members?

–verb (used with object)
1. to treat or speak to insolently or with contemptuous rudeness; affront.
2. to affect as an affront; offend or demean.
3. Archaic . to attack; assault.

I think the prior de facto rule is more germane to the above definition: if you call someone a (whatever), be prepared to back it up. However, this forum seems to now have a "higher", or less reasonable standard, whichever your point of view may be, AND THAT HAS APPARENTLY BEEN CAUSED BY THE ACTIONS OF ROB SINGER. So in a very real way, Singer has garbaged up yet another gambling forum with his nonsense.

I will, as everyone else, be walking on eggshells, I suppose, and the only good thing about the new rule is that if applied evenly, it will hasten the exit of Singer's alias as well as Singer himself.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:27:45 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

That's an even slipperier slope, methinks. I've used the phrase "system huckster" in the past, hardly a positive appellation -- would I merit a suspension under your new policy? What constitutes an insult is very much in the eye of the beholder, and neither you or the US government have ever recognized a "right to not be offended". Be careful that you don't clamp down on speech so much that you end up suspending everyone.



As in my post above, using a dictionary definition of "insult", calling someone something critical is NOT an "insult" if it is accurate. "System huckster" was quite accurate in the context that you used it.

It seems, however, that a subjective, and broad, definition of the term will henceforth be used. S'okay. The 18th-century French royal court was a fun place, with its elaborate courtesies and rituals. Good music, food and wine, too.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
MathExtremist
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:29:36 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The reason he is resigning is mostly in protest that I didn't punish mkl for calling Rob Singer a fraud



I just want to know what other label you'd give to someone who (a) makes utterly ridiculous claims that fly in the face of public law and decades of empirical evidence, (b) backs them up with scant, if any, anecdotal evidence and no verifiable evidence at all, (c) applies perhaps the most egregious example of the fallacy of hasty generalization I've ever witnessed, and (d) writes all this up in a book for profit?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
mkl654321
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:34:12 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I just want to know what other label you'd give to someone who (a) makes utterly ridiculous claims that fly in the face of public law and decades of empirical evidence, (b) backs them up with scant, if any, anecdotal evidence and no verifiable evidence at all, (c) applies perhaps the most egregious example of the fallacy of hasty generalization I've ever witnessed, and (d) writes all this up in a book for profit?



Yes, I don't think I was in any way inaccurate--or, insulting--when I called him a ***** and said he was a ****.

****ing censorship.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
TheNightfly
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:41:36 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I just want to know what other label you'd give to someone who (a) makes utterly ridiculous claims that fly in the face of public law and decades of empirical evidence, (b) backs them up with scant, if any, anecdotal evidence and no verifiable evidence at all, (c) applies perhaps the most egregious example of the fallacy of hasty generalization I've ever witnessed, and (d) writes all this up in a book for profit?


I'm certainly not a fan of RS but in answer to your honest question, assuming someone can perpetrate (a), (b) and (c) and somehow manage to make money by following it all up with (D), I'd call that person shrewd. There are other, less flattering words to describe the kind of person who profits from (a), (b) and (c) but as WoV is now a no-insult zone I'll stick with shrewd.
Happiness is underrated
mkl654321
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:52:15 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

I'm certainly not a fan of RS but in answer to your honest question, assuming someone can perpetrate (a), (b) and (c) and somehow manage to make money by following it all up with (D), I'd call that person shrewd. There are other, less flattering words to describe the kind of person who profits from (a), (b) and (c) but as WoV is now a no-insult zone I'll stick with shrewd.



Well, there's no doubt that one indispensible aspect of being a ***-*** is being shrewd, though those who view such a profession unfavorably might call that person ****** or ********* instead of "shrewd". There are many such appellations, after all: Rob Singer would sat he's "savvy", whereas another person might say he's ********* or ***** or even ******. I think it's kind of ******* to draw such distinctions, as one man's prophet is another man's *****. One man's fountain of gambling wisdom is another man's *****-********.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
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January 8th, 2011 at 5:54:42 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Good music, food and wine, too.



You want to eat French food in the 1700's, be my guest. No refridgeration, no knowledge of germs or cleanliness in the kitchen, you're chances of getting food poisoning on any given day were excellent. People constantly had 'digestion complaints' from tainted food, it was a lifelong curse.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Wizard
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January 8th, 2011 at 6:02:59 PM permalink
Rob Singer told me he resigned. Although his name is still on the list, I no longer consider him a forum member. So he is fair game. He is still welcome to return, in which case, the rules will reapply.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
EvenBob
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January 8th, 2011 at 6:40:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

So he is fair game.



What does this mean? We can insult him without getting banned?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RaleighCraps
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January 8th, 2011 at 7:08:42 PM permalink
Well, instead of worrying about whether or not the name you are about to use could be considered an insult, how about not using the name? I would wager that any point you have to make can be made without adding an insult or questionable label to the OP.

Let the people who want to push the envelope take their chances. Eventually they will all be gone. Will we lose some input and some varied opinions? Unfortunately yes. I actually enjoy reading most of the posts, minus the childish name calling and other non relevant garbage that gets spewed out. But I could not care less about losing the opinions and viewpoints of the people who need to add the other crap. I would rather the forum gets back to some form of civil decorum. It is already MUCH MUCH better than it was 4 months ago, so we are moving in the right direction. Thank you Wiz
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Wizard
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January 8th, 2011 at 7:35:24 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

It is already MUCH MUCH better than it was 4 months ago, so we are moving in the right direction. Thank you Wiz



You're welcome. At least one person is happy.

About Rob Singer, I'm going to put his status back on "banned," since he told me that he is resigning. However, if he asks to return then I will accept him back.

Insulting non-members is allowed.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
boymimbo
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January 8th, 2011 at 7:38:30 PM permalink
I'm happy too Wizard if it means anything.

And excellent work by Polywog. Fantastic detective work. Let's make him WOV member of the month.

Can we insult non-member's wives?
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Wavy70
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January 8th, 2011 at 7:59:12 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You're welcome. At least one person is happy.

About Rob Singer, I'm going to put his status back on "banned," since he told me that he is resigning. However, if he asks to return then I will accept him back.

Insulting non-members is allowed.



Me Happy!
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
EvenBob
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January 8th, 2011 at 8:11:40 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard



Insulting non-members is allowed.



So is he now a non-member that his status is 'banned'? I'm confused.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Wizard
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January 8th, 2011 at 8:14:33 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I'm happy too Wizard if it means anything.

And excellent work by Polywog. Fantastic detective work. Let's make him WOV member of the month.

Can we insult non-member's wives?



1. Thanks!
2. I may do something like that in the future. However, I think that post is deserving of a free copy of my book.
3. A gentleman never does that, but there is no rule against it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rdw4potus
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January 8th, 2011 at 8:15:08 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Well, there's no doubt that one indispensible aspect of being a ***-*** is being shrewd, though those who view such a profession unfavorably might call that person ****** or ********* instead of "shrewd". There are many such appellations, after all: Rob Singer would sat he's "savvy", whereas another person might say he's ********* or ***** or even ******. I think it's kind of ******* to draw such distinctions, as one man's prophet is another man's *****. One man's fountain of gambling wisdom is another man's *****-********.




...And WOV mad-libs just became my somewhat-buzzed saturday night passtime. Thank you, MKL!
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
PeteM
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January 8th, 2011 at 8:27:19 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You're welcome. At least one person is happy.

About Rob Singer, I'm going to put his status back on "banned," since he told me that he is resigning. However, if he asks to return then I will accept him back.

Insulting non-members is allowed.

Happy in Colorado, Wiz! Soon to be happier when JL goes down for a month.
"Win with a smile, lose with grace."
boymimbo
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January 8th, 2011 at 8:39:32 PM permalink
If JL is indeed RS then there's no point of him coming back. If JL is indeed RS, then kudos to MKL to being a pain in his backside.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
EvenBob
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January 8th, 2011 at 8:57:54 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

1. Thanks!
2. I may do something like that in the future. However, I think that post is deserving of a free copy of my book.
3. A gentleman never does that, but there is no rule against it.



Because you changed Singer back to banned, is he a member again? Or a non-member like you previously stated?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
teddys
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January 8th, 2011 at 9:42:06 PM permalink
Isn't it conclusive that JL is RS? I'm absolutely convinced. I read all the quotes on the first post and paged through the other forum stuff. So if RS is self-excluded/banned, shouldn't JL be as well?

I think PaulEWog has shifted the burden of proof to Jerry to prove he isn't RS.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Wizard
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January 8th, 2011 at 10:13:31 PM permalink
I just sent Jerry a PM giving him a chance to offer a rebuttal before I make my decision. He is suspended until the 13th anyway, so I don't see a reason to rush it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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