Miscellaneous Discussion Thread II

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May 5th, 2025 at 2:21:28 PM permalink

Quote: DRich
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: DRich
Quote: AZDuffman

You also do not seem to think there is any difference between men and women. But there is.

That is completely untrue, you must have me confused with someone else. . I use the XX and XY to differentiate.
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I am basing it on the positions you taa ad Kevin your posts. This thread being just one example.
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You may just be confusing the fact that I don't believe we should have segregated sports. As I always say, let everyone compete together.
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And that is not understanding there is a difference between men and women. Or just being anti-woman.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

DRich

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May 5th, 2025 at 3:16:28 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman

You may just be confusing the fact that I don't believe we should have segregated sports. As I always say, let everyone compete together.
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And that is not understanding there is a difference between men and women. Or just being anti-woman.
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Please explain how that is not knowing there is a difference? You have said many absurd things on these forums but this one makes zero sense. Clearly there is a difference, hence the XX and XY chromosomes. That makes it a pretty obvious difference.

You can't know everything, but you can know anything.

AZDuffman

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May 5th, 2025 at 3:27:18 PM permalink

Quote: DRich

Please explain how that is not knowing there is a difference? You have said many absurd things on these forums but this one makes zero sense. Clearly there is a difference, hence the XX and XY chromosomes. That makes it a pretty obvious difference.
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Starters by your thinking women can compete against men in sports and there should not be separate men's and women's divisions. You think that women will be able to compete against bigger, stronger, and faster men. That is not understanding there is a difference between men and women. If you knew there was a difference you would not make such a statement.

Then there is this thread where you imply a woman who gets around is the same as a man who gets around. All one needs do there is note how that is seen different by society. Feminists try to say they are the same, but most people know better.

Your positions indicate that you think the humans are genderless. Not the case.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

EvenBob

EvenBob

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May 5th, 2025 at 6:42:44 PM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster
.
Russia has a program of pardoning criminals including murderers and rapists if they serve in the Ukraine war

after serving they come back to Russia to commit more crimes including murder and rape

https://archive.ph/kOh5f

.
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Of course. Russia is telling them you've paid your debt to society by going to war now you can come back and continue to commit crimes. That's how criminals think.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

DRich

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May 5th, 2025 at 8:05:43 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: DRich

Please explain how that is not knowing there is a difference? You have said many absurd things on these forums but this one makes zero sense. Clearly there is a difference, hence the XX and XY chromosomes. That makes it a pretty obvious difference.
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Starters by your thinking women can compete against men in sports and there should not be separate men's and women's divisions. You think that women will be able to compete against bigger, stronger, and faster men. That is not understanding there is a difference between men and women. If you knew there was a difference you would not make such a statement.

Then there is this thread where you imply a woman who gets around is the same as a man who gets around. All one needs do there is note how that is seen different by society. Feminists try to say they are the same, but most people know better.

Your positions indicate that you think the humans are genderless. Not the case.
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Why would I care if men can compete at the same level as women or vice versa? Old slow fat guys, like me, can't compete in the NBA so should we require there to be leagues that I can compete in? Of course not. It is not about the majority of a class being able to compete at the highest levels. Just have more levels where everyone can compete. Little league baseball combines girls and boys in the same leagues and it works well.

You can't know everything, but you can know anything.

DRich

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May 5th, 2025 at 8:06:34 PM permalink

duplicate

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DogHand

DogHand

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May 6th, 2025 at 12:54:51 AM permalink

Quote: lilredrooster
.
things change
not all that long ago women were expected to be virgins when they got married
now, that expectation is not there<snip>
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Reminds me of a classic Benny Hill sketch. The morning scene opens with Benny and a beautiful girl lying in bed wrapped in each other's arms and smiling. In the scene is a wedding gown draped over a chair and a suitcase with a "Just Married" sign attached. Benny asks his young bride, "So tell me, darling... Was that your first time?" She shyly replies, "Of course, dear", causing Benny's smile to grow even larger, and then she thoughtlessly adds, "Why do you men always ask the same question?" Benny's reaction shot of initial confusion followed quickly by a dawning realization of her question's implications is a classic!

Dog Hand

AutomaticMonkey

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May 6th, 2025 at 1:52:21 AM permalink

Quote: DRich

Why would I care if men can compete at the same level as women or vice versa? Old slow fat guys, like me, can't compete in the NBA so should we require there to be leagues that I can compete in? Of course not. It is not about the majority of a class being able to compete at the highest levels. Just have more levels where everyone can compete. Little league baseball combines girls and boys in the same leagues and it works well.
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What is the purpose of sport? It has always been about inspiration and aesthetic.

Female sports inspire females in a way male sports can not, and they have an aesthetic all their own which men cannot duplicate and which cannot be maintained when competing with men.

It's much worse in the situations where the girl gets hurt. Even girl-on-girl MMA fights, after the match when I see the girl with her face all smashed up and crying, I HATE that! I don't want to see any girl looking like what the cop sees on a domestic violence call. There is no aesthetic or inspiration in that for me. And when that is done to her by a male, it looks like the most repellent forms of pornography and is obscene. That should not exist in a civilization. None of this was an issue before a small community of misogynist h. decided to invade the world of women and claim for themselves the things in that world, out of resentment of women getting the attention from men that they never could.

Regarding girls in Little League, you might be thinking of pre-Little leagues, ages 5 to 10 or so, which if they're not tee ball they're usually no-windup, no-steal leagues. By the time they are 12 and playing traditional Little League some of those kids are throwing around 90 (with insufficient control, as you might imagine) and are athletic enough where a typical guy over 30 would get blown away out there. Not good for girls. But there are plenty of girls softball leagues where most girls could compete, rather than one-in-a-million freaks of nature. Why not do that?

AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 3:28:19 AM permalink

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Regarding girls in Little League, you might be thinking of pre-Little leagues, ages 5 to 10 or so, which if they're not tee ball they're usually no-windup, no-steal leagues. By the time they are 12 and playing traditional Little League some of those kids are throwing around 90 (with insufficient control, as you might imagine) and are athletic enough where a typical guy over 30 would get blown away out there. Not good for girls. But there are plenty of girls softball leagues where most girls could compete, rather than one-in-a-million freaks of nature. Why not do that?
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That's what I figure he was talking about, 5 year olds. To compare 5 year olds and 10 year olds in development is just plain silly. To compare 5 year olds to teens and adults if not living in any form of reality. Just look at how women pitch vs. men, with that windup they use. That is just one sport. Remember the female golfer who demanded to compete with the men at a tournament? She missed the cut and made a fool out of herself.

Perhaps a Canadian on here could say if women and men could compete in curling? That is one of the only sports I can remotely imagine it happening on a fair level. And yes, I know tennis has mixed-doubles. That is not competing, that is two mixed teams.

Saying we should just make it all co-ed is saying we will never let women compete.

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rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 6:09:28 AM permalink

Nah, males and females should be able to compete against each other if they want to, not based on what I or anyone else thinks about it.

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 6:22:06 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Nah, males and females should be able to compete against each other if they want to, not based on what I or anyone else thinks about it.
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What about the vast majority of women who don't want to but are ignored?

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billryan

billryan

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May 6th, 2025 at 6:57:48 AM permalink

I don't know much about women's sports. Outside of track and gymnastics, they don't appeal to me. Women's lacrosse is a joke, and I think most WNBA players would be hard pressed to make a decent boys' HS team.
Outside of roller derby, is there a women's sport that is a commercial success?

The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 7:08:00 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Nah, males and females should be able to compete against each other if they want to, not based on what I or anyone else thinks about it.
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What about the vast majority of women who don't want to but are ignored?
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Well, do you think a male dwarf should be able to try out for the high school football team? Because he might get hurt and he probably can't compete against other males. Is he going to break any all time performance records. Probably not.

But he should be able to try out if he wants to, IMO. Maybe they can even figure out a way he can contribute. I'm not going to make it my call. It shouldn't be yours either.

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DRich

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May 6th, 2025 at 7:17:29 AM permalink

Quote: billryan

Outside of roller derby, is there a women's sport that is a commercial success?

Is roller derby a sport? I always assumed it was just entertainment like professional wrestling.

You can't know everything, but you can know anything.

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 7:18:44 AM permalink

Anyway, I'm not saying anyone has to do anything. I just wouldn't make some overall standard if someone wants a mixed team. They can work out whatever issues the rest of the world has with them competing elsewhere.

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rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 7:51:04 AM permalink

I think it would be interesting to see male pro's play female pro's on the female pro golf course. I can say from experience just 'cause you can hit the ball a long ways doesn't totally add up to putting it in the cup. Probably be more competitive in a couple decades more of woman playing.

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:07:50 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Nah, males and females should be able to compete against each other if they want to, not based on what I or anyone else thinks about it.
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What about the vast majority of women who don't want to but are ignored?
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Well, do you think a male dwarf should be able to try out for the high school football team? Because he might get hurt and he probably can't compete against other males. Is he going to break any all time performance records. Probably not.

But he should be able to try out if he wants to, IMO. Maybe they can even figure out a way he can contribute. I'm not going to make it my call. It shouldn't be yours either.
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Here is where your logic fails. And it fails big.

In general, let the dwarf try out if he is a male. However, the coach may not allow it, citing that he will very likely get hurt. That happens when too small people try out for sports. If not stopped right away, the coach will make him try some tryout exercises and stop him before he sets foot on the field. Again, because he is simply overmatched and going to get hurt.

BUT, a better way you could have put it is, "should a regular sized guy be able to try out for the dwarf team?" Like, he outweighs them by 50lbs or more. He will end up hurting people. Yet, he wants to play. By your logic he should be allowed to play.

We have men's and women's sports divided for logical reasons. These guys who want to play on the girls team need to simply be told "NO!" If needed they need to be told., "You are not good enough to play with the guys, so you do not get to play. Sometimes this happens. Deal with it."

I support women being able to play sports, which is why I am against men playing in women's sports.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:14:59 AM permalink

Nope, logic doesn't fail. Because I said it depends on what people want in their sports. I didn't say, it depends on what one person wants.

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:26:19 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Nope, logic doesn't fail. Because I said it depends on what people want in their sports. I didn't say, it depends on what one person wants.
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You can't always get what you want. If you are a male and want to play with females, too bad, you do not get to do that. Crying and stamping your feet about it like a child does not change things.

Men play in men's sports.
Women play in women's sports.

Co-ed leagues exist if that is what you want.

Rules do not change just because you can't play among the men.

What I do not get is why the feminists are not defending women's sports. For years they demanded more women's sports, not they are silent.

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rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:28:26 AM permalink

There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.

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rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:35:40 AM permalink

In college I was invited to a denomination (won't mention which one, but probably still big on campuses) where all the men sat on one side and all the women on the other for the service. Not my thing for that kind of belief, but that's what they wanted, so fine with me also.

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:38:35 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
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What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:45:00 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
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What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
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It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:52:28 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
link to original post

What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
link to original post

It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.
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You mean like your standard that men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

This is an 80/20 issue. Thing is the 20 are like an HOA board. The are motivated to get their way while the 80 just want to live in peace. If you take time to pay attention women athletes are not part of the 20, they are in the 80. The 20 are activists who for some reason hate gender differences. So, same as the HOA passes rules most do not like they let the men compete where they should not.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 8:55:45 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
link to original post

What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
link to original post

It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.
link to original post

You mean like your standard that men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

This is an 80/20 issue. Thing is the 20 are like an HOA board. The are motivated to get their way while the 80 just want to live in peace. If you take time to pay attention women athletes are not part of the 20, they are in the 80. The 20 are activists who for some reason hate gender differences. So, same as the HOA passes rules most do not like they let the men compete where they should not.

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my standard is if people want that in their area yes. If they don't fine too. What's your problem with that?

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 9:05:09 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
link to original post

What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
link to original post

It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.
link to original post

You mean like your standard that men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

This is an 80/20 issue. Thing is the 20 are like an HOA board. The are motivated to get their way while the 80 just want to live in peace. If you take time to pay attention women athletes are not part of the 20, they are in the 80. The 20 are activists who for some reason hate gender differences. So, same as the HOA passes rules most do not like they let the men compete where they should not.

link to original post

my standard is if people want that in their area yes. If they don't fine too. What's your problem with that?
link to original post

My problem is the vast majority do NOT want men in women's sports but folks like yourself keep whining to let them play.

IOW, people DON'T want it, but you are not fine with that, even though you keep saying you are.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 9:09:26 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
link to original post

What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
link to original post

It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.
link to original post

You mean like your standard that men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

This is an 80/20 issue. Thing is the 20 are like an HOA board. The are motivated to get their way while the 80 just want to live in peace. If you take time to pay attention women athletes are not part of the 20, they are in the 80. The 20 are activists who for some reason hate gender differences. So, same as the HOA passes rules most do not like they let the men compete where they should not.

link to original post

my standard is if people want that in their area yes. If they don't fine too. What's your problem with that?
link to original post

My problem is the vast majority do NOT want men in women's sports but folks like yourself keep whining to let them play.

IOW, people DON'T want it, but you are not fine with that, even though you keep saying you are.
link to original post

Do you live in a town where 100% of the people believe in 100% of the laws and ordinances? Must every town have the same laws and ordinances as another town?

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 9:21:52 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
link to original post

What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
link to original post

It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.
link to original post

You mean like your standard that men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

This is an 80/20 issue. Thing is the 20 are like an HOA board. The are motivated to get their way while the 80 just want to live in peace. If you take time to pay attention women athletes are not part of the 20, they are in the 80. The 20 are activists who for some reason hate gender differences. So, same as the HOA passes rules most do not like they let the men compete where they should not.

link to original post

my standard is if people want that in their area yes. If they don't fine too. What's your problem with that?
link to original post

My problem is the vast majority do NOT want men in women's sports but folks like yourself keep whining to let them play.

IOW, people DON'T want it, but you are not fine with that, even though you keep saying you are.
link to original post

Do you live in a town where 100% of the people believe in 100% of the laws and ordinances? Must every town have the same laws and ordinances as another town?
link to original post

Deflect, deflect, deflect..........

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 9:44:15 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
link to original post

What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
link to original post

It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.
link to original post

You mean like your standard that men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

This is an 80/20 issue. Thing is the 20 are like an HOA board. The are motivated to get their way while the 80 just want to live in peace. If you take time to pay attention women athletes are not part of the 20, they are in the 80. The 20 are activists who for some reason hate gender differences. So, same as the HOA passes rules most do not like they let the men compete where they should not.

link to original post

my standard is if people want that in their area yes. If they don't fine too. What's your problem with that?
link to original post

My problem is the vast majority do NOT want men in women's sports but folks like yourself keep whining to let them play.

IOW, people DON'T want it, but you are not fine with that, even though you keep saying you are.
link to original post

Do you live in a town where 100% of the people believe in 100% of the laws and ordinances? Must every town have the same laws and ordinances as another town?
link to original post

Deflect, deflect, deflect..........
link to original post

Deflecting from what? Hey, if you want to morally rule over people, save your pennies, buy up some land and start your own town on your private property, then you can make your own kind of rules about how people need to act. I'll continue to live in America.

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 10:23:16 AM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
link to original post

What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
link to original post

It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.
link to original post

You mean like your standard that men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

This is an 80/20 issue. Thing is the 20 are like an HOA board. The are motivated to get their way while the 80 just want to live in peace. If you take time to pay attention women athletes are not part of the 20, they are in the 80. The 20 are activists who for some reason hate gender differences. So, same as the HOA passes rules most do not like they let the men compete where they should not.

link to original post

my standard is if people want that in their area yes. If they don't fine too. What's your problem with that?
link to original post

My problem is the vast majority do NOT want men in women's sports but folks like yourself keep whining to let them play.

IOW, people DON'T want it, but you are not fine with that, even though you keep saying you are.
link to original post

Do you live in a town where 100% of the people believe in 100% of the laws and ordinances? Must every town have the same laws and ordinances as another town?
link to original post

Deflect, deflect, deflect..........
link to original post

Deflecting from what? Hey, if you want to morally rule over people, save your pennies, buy up some land and start your own town on your private property, then you can make your own kind of rules about how people need to act. I'll continue to live in America.
link to original post

Deflecting from the fact that 80 of the population does not want men in women's sports. If you "live in America" you understand the concept. Thus you deflect.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 10:34:18 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: rxwine
There are some communities where boys and girls aren't even supposed to engage in any way. There are other communities where they may not have such prohibitions and maybe even create joint sports. If that's what they decide in each community, fine with me.
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What does this have to do with women's sports? But on your logic, we have decided we have men's and women's sports. So why are we having this discussion? By your standard here it is settled.
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It has to do with trying to enforce standards not everyone believes in.
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You mean like your standard that men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

This is an 80/20 issue. Thing is the 20 are like an HOA board. The are motivated to get their way while the 80 just want to live in peace. If you take time to pay attention women athletes are not part of the 20, they are in the 80. The 20 are activists who for some reason hate gender differences. So, same as the HOA passes rules most do not like they let the men compete where they should not.

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my standard is if people want that in their area yes. If they don't fine too. What's your problem with that?
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My problem is the vast majority do NOT want men in women's sports but folks like yourself keep whining to let them play.

IOW, people DON'T want it, but you are not fine with that, even though you keep saying you are.
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Do you live in a town where 100% of the people believe in 100% of the laws and ordinances? Must every town have the same laws and ordinances as another town?
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Deflect, deflect, deflect..........
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Deflecting from what? Hey, if you want to morally rule over people, save your pennies, buy up some land and start your own town on your private property, then you can make your own kind of rules about how people need to act. I'll continue to live in America.
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Deflecting from the fact that 80 of the population does not want men in women's sports. If you "live in America" you understand the concept. Thus you deflect.
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So what, Maybe you don't want to live in a Mormon community either so don't go to Utah and live in strict Mormon environment, but no reason to make everyone live the same way. Don't live with the Amish if you don't like that either. And so on.

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rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 10:41:35 AM permalink

As far as 80/20, Mormons are less than 2% of US population. Amish even less.

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AutomaticMonkey

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May 6th, 2025 at 1:29:17 PM permalink

Quote: rxwine

Deflecting from what? Hey, if you want to morally rule over people, save your pennies, buy up some land and start your own town on your private property, then you can make your own kind of rules about how people need to act. I'll continue to live in America.
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Where did we ever get this silly idea where the majority can not or should not force the minority to defer to its sensibilities?

The Constitution defines how far we can take that principle. There's nothing in there about a right to cross-dress and claim to be something you are not. These are people who would have gotten a good flogging in the town square in the days of James Madison.

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 1:45:31 PM permalink

Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: rxwine

Deflecting from what? Hey, if you want to morally rule over people, save your pennies, buy up some land and start your own town on your private property, then you can make your own kind of rules about how people need to act. I'll continue to live in America.
link to original post

Where did we ever get this silly idea where the majority can not or should not force the minority to defer to its sensibilities?

The Constitution defines how far we can take that principle. There's nothing in there about a right to cross-dress and claim to be something you are not. These are people who would have gotten a good flogging in the town square in the days of James Madison.
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Free speech. And,free expression is usually covered for more things than speech. But I have other arguments if you don't like that one. Of course, when someone enters a private space, they can tell the person to leave if they don't like how they look.

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DRich

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May 6th, 2025 at 2:26:29 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman

Rules do not change just because you can't play among the men.

Again, patently false. I think I know what you are trying to communicate, but there are definitely different rules in basketball for men and women.

You can't know everything, but you can know anything.

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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May 6th, 2025 at 2:38:08 PM permalink

Quote: billryan
I don't know much about women's sports. Outside of track and gymnastics, they don't appeal to me. Women's lacrosse is a joke, and I think most WNBA players would be hard pressed to make a decent boys' HS team.
Outside of roller derby, is there a women's sport that is a commercial success?
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You think Serena Williams wasn�t a �commercial success�?

I think you can also list women�s golf as a commercial success.

I�m not sure if �commercial success� can be quantified for women�s gymnastics, but I�ll just use the word success.

Women�s MMA is certainly a commercial success.

Michelle Wie and Annika Sorenstam did NOT embarrass themselves in their appearances in male tournaments. They played to their abilities, which was of course below that of the top male players.

AutomaticMonkey

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May 6th, 2025 at 2:40:19 PM permalink

Quote: rxwine
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: rxwine

Deflecting from what? Hey, if you want to morally rule over people, save your pennies, buy up some land and start your own town on your private property, then you can make your own kind of rules about how people need to act. I'll continue to live in America.
link to original post

Where did we ever get this silly idea where the majority can not or should not force the minority to defer to its sensibilities?

The Constitution defines how far we can take that principle. There's nothing in there about a right to cross-dress and claim to be something you are not. These are people who would have gotten a good flogging in the town square in the days of James Madison.
link to original post

Free speech. And,free expression is usually covered for more things than speech. But I have other arguments if you don't like that one. Of course, when someone enters a private space, they can tell the person to leave if they don't like how they look.
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The courts have ruled on this. There is no freedom of expression, other than verbal expression- speaking and writing. We can talk about it or advocate for one side or another all we want.

I am personally familiar with laws restraining personal freedom- I'm a nudist! Let me tell you my tales of woe and oppression about not being allowed to be nude anywhere I want.

Just kidding... there are no such tales, because a social nudist would never get nude in a place that wasn't intended for it and where 100% of the people present aren't cool with it. Because when you are nude among people who don't want you to be it takes on names other than social nudity; exhibitionism, indecent exposure, perversion, sex offense, things that are not at all complimentary. Antisocial nudity, I suppose.

Then we have the sadomasochists. Acts ranging from a little slap-and-tickle, to things that could be capital felonies in any other context. Very disturbing if you are not part of that world and sometimes even if you are. That's why it all takes place behind closed doors and with strict ensurance of consensuality.

Why should not these same fair standards be applied to all personal behaviors that are comparably outré?

rxwine

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May 6th, 2025 at 3:28:30 PM permalink

Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: rxwine
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: rxwine

Deflecting from what? Hey, if you want to morally rule over people, save your pennies, buy up some land and start your own town on your private property, then you can make your own kind of rules about how people need to act. I'll continue to live in America.
link to original post

Where did we ever get this silly idea where the majority can not or should not force the minority to defer to its sensibilities?

The Constitution defines how far we can take that principle. There's nothing in there about a right to cross-dress and claim to be something you are not. These are people who would have gotten a good flogging in the town square in the days of James Madison.
link to original post

Free speech. And,free expression is usually covered for more things than speech. But I have other arguments if you don't like that one. Of course, when someone enters a private space, they can tell the person to leave if they don't like how they look.
link to original post

The courts have ruled on this. There is no freedom of expression, other than verbal expression- speaking and writing. We can talk about it or advocate for one side or another all we want.

I am personally familiar with laws restraining personal freedom- I'm a nudist! Let me tell you my tales of woe and oppression about not being allowed to be nude anywhere I want.

Just kidding... there are no such tales, because a social nudist would never get nude in a place that wasn't intended for it and where 100% of the people present aren't cool with it. Because when you are nude among people who don't want you to be it takes on names other than social nudity; exhibitionism, indecent exposure, perversion, sex offense, things that are not at all complimentary. Antisocial nudity, I suppose.

Then we have the sadomasochists. Acts ranging from a little slap-and-tickle, to things that could be capital felonies in any other context. Very disturbing if you are not part of that world and sometimes even if you are. That's why it all takes place behind closed doors and with strict ensurance of consensuality.

Why should not these same fair standards be applied to all personal behaviors that are comparably outré?
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Nudity is a funny one. Once you require people to put a towel down where they sit, it's no longer about harm. Plenty of rape started with people with clothes on and plenty of lewd and lacivious behavior also occurred with clothes on. And hands are probably almost as dirty as everything but the butt hole and most people don't wear clean protective gloves.for their hands. So, it's more about preference of not seeing a bunch of ugly unfit people as seeing private parts I think.

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AZDuffman

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May 6th, 2025 at 3:44:18 PM permalink

Quote: SOOPOO
Quote: billryan
I don't know much about women's sports. Outside of track and gymnastics, they don't appeal to me. Women's lacrosse is a joke, and I think most WNBA players would be hard pressed to make a decent boys' HS team.
Outside of roller derby, is there a women's sport that is a commercial success?
link to original post

You think Serena Williams wasn�t a �commercial success�?

I think you can also list women�s golf as a commercial success.

I�m not sure if �commercial success� can be quantified for women�s gymnastics, but I�ll just use the word success.

Women�s MMA is certainly a commercial success.

Michelle Wie and Annika Sorenstam did NOT embarrass themselves in their appearances in male tournaments. They played to their abilities, which was of course below that of the top male players.
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Annika did embarrass herself when she played with the men. Top of the LPGA, missed the cut when she played with the men. Would have been as if Tiger Woods played in a different division and missed the cut. IOW, you can play to your abilities and still embarrass yourself.

The WNBA has not made a profit in almost 30 years and is on no path to do so.

Women's tennis and golf seem to have some niche fan base. I was at a LPGA event in Rochester, but only because I got in free< though to be fair I would not pay anything to see men's golf either. However, I think both ladies tennis and golf mostly cater to fans and sponsors who cannot afford the men's events.

Gymnastics and figure skating, women clearly outdraw men. Women's hockey seems to have gotten somewhere in USA and Canada. Put best I remember the statement at the last Olympics---"Nobody knows if the USA or Canada will win the Women's Hockey Gold but everyone knows the USA or Canada will win it." I haven't seen any women's hockey to comment on differing play.

I do prefer women's curling. That is about it. To be fair, I have lost interest in almost all sports, though.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

DRich

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May 6th, 2025 at 3:57:33 PM permalink

Quote: AutomaticMonkey
\

The courts have ruled on this. There is no freedom of expression, other than verbal expression- speaking and writing. We can talk about it or advocate for one side or another all we want.

I believe on multiple occasions it has been ruled that giving a cop the middle finger has been covered by freedom of expression.

You can't know everything, but you can know anything.

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

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May 6th, 2025 at 5:43:23 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman

Annika did embarrass herself when she played with the men. Top of the LPGA, missed the cut when she played with the men. Would have been as if Tiger Woods played in a different division and missed the cut. IOW, you can play to your abilities and still embarrass yourself.

In the pantheon of just plain stupid AZ posts, this one is top shelf. Do you think the half of men�s pro golfers that miss the cut embarrass themselves? And your Tiger Woods analogy is plain backwards. He would be playing in a LOWER division, while she was playing in a HIGHER division.

I just looked it up. She beat ELEVEN of the best male golfers in the world. She had much to be proud of. Nothing to be embarrassed about.

In golf, the pro events often have some players with little chance, like the local high school champion, or a way past his prime ex champion. They play to the best of their abilities. It�s not embarrassing not to be as good as Scottie Scheffler.

AutomaticMonkey

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May 6th, 2025 at 5:52:56 PM permalink

Quote: DRich
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
\

The courts have ruled on this. There is no freedom of expression, other than verbal expression- speaking and writing. We can talk about it or advocate for one side or another all we want.

I believe on multiple occasions it has been ruled that giving a cop the middle finger has been covered by freedom of expression.
link to original post

Sign language. That gesture represents words. Now if I walk up to a cop and draw back my fist, that gesture represents an action that is definitely not protected and there is going to be a different outcome, right?

Cops have a different set of standards when it comes to offense, because they are selected and trained to not be offended. They cannot be easily offended and still do their line of work. That's why it has been found in an obscenity or indecency case there has to be a private citizen complaining; it can't be just a cop who doesn't like it.

GenoDRPh

GenoDRPh

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May 6th, 2025 at 6:23:11 PM permalink

Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: DRich
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
\

The courts have ruled on this. There is no freedom of expression, other than verbal expression- speaking and writing. We can talk about it or advocate for one side or another all we want.

I believe on multiple occasions it has been ruled that giving a cop the middle finger has been covered by freedom of expression.
link to original post

Sign language. That gesture represents words. Now if I walk up to a cop and draw back my fist, that gesture represents an action that is definitely not protected and there is going to be a different outcome, right?

Cops have a different set of standards when it comes to offense, because they are selected and trained to not be offended. They cannot be easily offended and still do their line of work. That's why it has been found in an obscenity or indecency case there has to be a private citizen complaining; it can't be just a cop who doesn't like it.
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By your logic, can a US state pass a law banning men from wearing a dress or skirt in public? Can a US state pass a law preventing a male bagpiper from wearing a kilt?

AutomaticMonkey

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May 6th, 2025 at 6:55:57 PM permalink

Quote: GenoDRPh
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: DRich
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
\

The courts have ruled on this. There is no freedom of expression, other than verbal expression- speaking and writing. We can talk about it or advocate for one side or another all we want.

I believe on multiple occasions it has been ruled that giving a cop the middle finger has been covered by freedom of expression.
link to original post

Sign language. That gesture represents words. Now if I walk up to a cop and draw back my fist, that gesture represents an action that is definitely not protected and there is going to be a different outcome, right?

Cops have a different set of standards when it comes to offense, because they are selected and trained to not be offended. They cannot be easily offended and still do their line of work. That's why it has been found in an obscenity or indecency case there has to be a private citizen complaining; it can't be just a cop who doesn't like it.
link to original post

By your logic, can a US state pass a law banning men from wearing a dress or skirt in public? Can a US state pass a law preventing a male bagpiper from wearing a kilt?
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Absolutely, and there have been many such laws against transvestitism in the US. Adjacent to the laws against prostitution, sodomy, public lewdness etc. which cross-dressing was considered an element of.

Although, mostly enacted at a different time when dress standards were very different. Now, a girl in flannel shirt and jeans isn't trying to pass herself off as a cowboy, any more than a kilted piper is or was ever trying to look like a girl. Such a law today might be difficult to enforce for vagueness.

GenoDRPh

GenoDRPh

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May 6th, 2025 at 7:07:25 PM permalink

Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: GenoDRPh
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: DRich
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
\

The courts have ruled on this. There is no freedom of expression, other than verbal expression- speaking and writing. We can talk about it or advocate for one side or another all we want.

I believe on multiple occasions it has been ruled that giving a cop the middle finger has been covered by freedom of expression.
link to original post

Sign language. That gesture represents words. Now if I walk up to a cop and draw back my fist, that gesture represents an action that is definitely not protected and there is going to be a different outcome, right?

Cops have a different set of standards when it comes to offense, because they are selected and trained to not be offended. They cannot be easily offended and still do their line of work. That's why it has been found in an obscenity or indecency case there has to be a private citizen complaining; it can't be just a cop who doesn't like it.
link to original post

By your logic, can a US state pass a law banning men from wearing a dress or skirt in public? Can a US state pass a law preventing a male bagpiper from wearing a kilt?
link to original post

Absolutely, and there have been many such laws against transvestitism in the US. Adjacent to the laws against prostitution, sodomy, public lewdness etc. which cross-dressing was considered an element of.

Although, mostly enacted at a different time when dress standards were very different. Now, a girl in flannel shirt and jeans isn't trying to pass herself off as a cowboy, any more than a kilted piper is or was ever trying to look like a girl. Such a law today might be difficult to enforce for vagueness.
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Can you cite any such laws currently en force in the United States today, in 2025. Not on the books mind you but a law or laws that have been upheld as not in violation of the 1st Amendment or other such similar provisions in state constitutions?

AutomaticMonkey

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May 6th, 2025 at 7:47:16 PM permalink

Quote: GenoDRPh
Quote: AutomaticMonkey
Quote: GenoDRPh

By your logic, can a US state pass a law banning men from wearing a dress or skirt in public? Can a US state pass a law preventing a male bagpiper from wearing a kilt?
link to original post

Absolutely, and there have been many such laws against transvestitism in the US. Adjacent to the laws against prostitution, sodomy, public lewdness etc. which cross-dressing was considered an element of.

Although, mostly enacted at a different time when dress standards were very different. Now, a girl in flannel shirt and jeans isn't trying to pass herself off as a cowboy, any more than a kilted piper is or was ever trying to look like a girl. Such a law today might be difficult to enforce for vagueness.
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Can you cite any such laws currently en force in the United States today, in 2025. Not on the books mind you but a law or laws that have been upheld as not in violation of the 1st Amendment or other such similar provisions in state constitutions?
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Specifically to that, no there aren't any I'm aware of, but close enough are the anti-Klan acts in several states where the public wearing of the white hoods and robes was banned. I'm sure that has been tested. Unless it's in direct conflict with enumerated rights, just being provocative and offensive to the majority of the public is good enough reason to ban public behavior or display.

rxwine