Miscellaneous Discussion Thread II

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: odiousgambit

Homeless people generally hate the shelters, assholes abound, people steal, they're not safe ... lots of rules too, and you know what I'm saying with that

so concentration camps are the way to go? Keep smoking that stuff and you'll be homeless too
link to original post

Well of course they don't like the conditions in the shelters. But they are the reason for those conditions. When they complain, they remind me of the guy who sits in the non-smoking section to smoke, because the smoking section is too smoky.

If you look objectively at what leads people to living in those conditions, you'll find a lot of selfishness underlying it all. They wanted what they wanted when they wanted it, and didn't care who was harmed in the pursuit. Now they all have sob stories- yeah my job shut down, house got foreclosed, medical bills, my dog died, etc. but they just think they're making a fool out of you with those stories. In reality they liked their drugs, they liked their vices, nobody was going to get in their way because they're someone special, they're so worthy. Then they crapped all over people, stole, lied, acted just like they act towards each other in the shelters and on the street, until nobody wanted them around anymore. This attitude often carries over into their street comportment, when they get good and high and walk around like they are some kind of king, making demands, and visiting violence upon the impudent plebeians who fail to comply.

So in my opinion- yeah, concentration camps. Let them learn some humility, and the value of labor in improving one's conditions and freeing oneself from vice. For we weary of them, and seeing once great cities brought to their knees by fear of them.
link to original post

This post is spot on. I was about to write something very similar to it. The vast majority of homeless people are either stupid, lazy, but usually they're stupid lazy and drug addicted. And arrogant and entitled. Many of them think they're superior to us, I actually think it's more than many. I think most of them do. We're the suckers, we go to work everyday, we're stuck in the grind. They're living out there free and easy on handouts and staying stoned all the time. There will come a solution to this because we will get fed up. They have to be removed to someplace where they can all hang out together and not bother us. Because you're not going to change them, and their numbers are growing all the time. Obviously a number of them are mentally ill and I'm not talking about them because they certainly are not the majority. The majority of them are just waste of space drug abusers. They are professional victims, woe is me.

Ah, didn't even know they had these here. The camera attached to the bus focuses on the cars. Do you have this in your state?

In Florida, a school bus camera ticket is a violation issued to drivers who illegally pass a school bus that has its stop arm extended and flashing lights. The fine for this violation is $225. The ticket is mailed to the vehicle's registered owner, and the evidence is captured by the school bus camera.

It's more like 5 points out of 11 on your license and a $500 fine plus court costs etc. and possible prison time. Just stay off the roads when the school buses are out because they take advantage of people. Stay out of school zones so you don't get tickets for going over 15 mph. The penalties for driving aren't what they once were and they assume everybody is a rich scofflaw.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: odiousgambit

Homeless people generally hate the shelters, assholes abound, people steal, they're not safe ... lots of rules too, and you know what I'm saying with that

so concentration camps are the way to go? Keep smoking that stuff and you'll be homeless too
link to original post

Well of course they don't like the conditions in the shelters. But they are the reason for those conditions. When they complain, they remind me of the guy who sits in the non-smoking section to smoke, because the smoking section is too smoky.

If you look objectively at what leads people to living in those conditions, you'll find a lot of selfishness underlying it all. They wanted what they wanted when they wanted it, and didn't care who was harmed in the pursuit. Now they all have sob stories- yeah my job shut down, house got foreclosed, medical bills, my dog died, etc. but they just think they're making a fool out of you with those stories. In reality they liked their drugs, they liked their vices, nobody was going to get in their way because they're someone special, they're so worthy. Then they crapped all over people, stole, lied, acted just like they act towards each other in the shelters and on the street, until nobody wanted them around anymore. This attitude often carries over into their street comportment, when they get good and high and walk around like they are some kind of king, making demands, and visiting violence upon the impudent plebeians who fail to comply.

So in my opinion- yeah, concentration camps. Let them learn some humility, and the value of labor in improving one's conditions and freeing oneself from vice. For we weary of them, and seeing once great cities brought to their knees by fear of them.
link to original post

This post is spot on. I was about to write something very similar to it. The vast majority of homeless people are either stupid, lazy, but usually they're stupid lazy and drug addicted. And arrogant and entitled. Many of them think they're superior to us, I actually think it's more than many. I think most of them do. We're the suckers, we go to work everyday, we're stuck in the grind. They're living out there free and easy on handouts and staying stoned all the time. There will come a solution to this because we will get fed up. They have to be removed to someplace where they can all hang out together and not bother us. Because you're not going to change them, and their numbers are growing all the time. Obviously a number of them are mentally ill and I'm not talking about them because they certainly are not the majority. The majority of them are just waste of space drug abusers. They are professional victims, woe is me.
link to original post

Fear is dangerous. It creates an environment in which it is acceptable to treat those experiencing poverty and homelessness with anger and hate.
Afraid, angry and ignorant is a hell of a way to go through life.

Quote: billryan

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: odiousgambit

Homeless people generally hate the shelters, assholes abound, people steal, they're not safe ... lots of rules too, and you know what I'm saying with that

so concentration camps are the way to go? Keep smoking that stuff and you'll be homeless too
link to original post

Well of course they don't like the conditions in the shelters. But they are the reason for those conditions. When they complain, they remind me of the guy who sits in the non-smoking section to smoke, because the smoking section is too smoky.

If you look objectively at what leads people to living in those conditions, you'll find a lot of selfishness underlying it all. They wanted what they wanted when they wanted it, and didn't care who was harmed in the pursuit. Now they all have sob stories- yeah my job shut down, house got foreclosed, medical bills, my dog died, etc. but they just think they're making a fool out of you with those stories. In reality they liked their drugs, they liked their vices, nobody was going to get in their way because they're someone special, they're so worthy. Then they crapped all over people, stole, lied, acted just like they act towards each other in the shelters and on the street, until nobody wanted them around anymore. This attitude often carries over into their street comportment, when they get good and high and walk around like they are some kind of king, making demands, and visiting violence upon the impudent plebeians who fail to comply.

So in my opinion- yeah, concentration camps. Let them learn some humility, and the value of labor in improving one's conditions and freeing oneself from vice. For we weary of them, and seeing once great cities brought to their knees by fear of them.
link to original post

This post is spot on. I was about to write something very similar to it. The vast majority of homeless people are either stupid, lazy, but usually they're stupid lazy and drug addicted. And arrogant and entitled. Many of them think they're superior to us, I actually think it's more than many. I think most of them do. We're the suckers, we go to work everyday, we're stuck in the grind. They're living out there free and easy on handouts and staying stoned all the time. There will come a solution to this because we will get fed up. They have to be removed to someplace where they can all hang out together and not bother us. Because you're not going to change them, and their numbers are growing all the time. Obviously a number of them are mentally ill and I'm not talking about them because they certainly are not the majority. The majority of them are just waste of space drug abusers. They are professional victims, woe is me.
link to original post

Fear is dangerous. It creates an environment in which it is acceptable to treat those experiencing poverty and homelessness with anger and hate.
Afraid, angry and ignorant is a hell of a way to go through life.
link to original post

Lol! If you're so unafraid of all your home homeless friends down by the tracks why don't you have a few of them move in with you. See how long your personal belongings last. Put your good intentions where your mouth is.

Quote: billryan

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: odiousgambit

Homeless people generally hate the shelters, assholes abound, people steal, they're not safe ... lots of rules too, and you know what I'm saying with that

so concentration camps are the way to go? Keep smoking that stuff and you'll be homeless too
link to original post

Well of course they don't like the conditions in the shelters. But they are the reason for those conditions. When they complain, they remind me of the guy who sits in the non-smoking section to smoke, because the smoking section is too smoky.

If you look objectively at what leads people to living in those conditions, you'll find a lot of selfishness underlying it all. They wanted what they wanted when they wanted it, and didn't care who was harmed in the pursuit. Now they all have sob stories- yeah my job shut down, house got foreclosed, medical bills, my dog died, etc. but they just think they're making a fool out of you with those stories. In reality they liked their drugs, they liked their vices, nobody was going to get in their way because they're someone special, they're so worthy. Then they crapped all over people, stole, lied, acted just like they act towards each other in the shelters and on the street, until nobody wanted them around anymore. This attitude often carries over into their street comportment, when they get good and high and walk around like they are some kind of king, making demands, and visiting violence upon the impudent plebeians who fail to comply.

So in my opinion- yeah, concentration camps. Let them learn some humility, and the value of labor in improving one's conditions and freeing oneself from vice. For we weary of them, and seeing once great cities brought to their knees by fear of them.
link to original post

This post is spot on. I was about to write something very similar to it. The vast majority of homeless people are either stupid, lazy, but usually they're stupid lazy and drug addicted. And arrogant and entitled. Many of them think they're superior to us, I actually think it's more than many. I think most of them do. We're the suckers, we go to work everyday, we're stuck in the grind. They're living out there free and easy on handouts and staying stoned all the time. There will come a solution to this because we will get fed up. They have to be removed to someplace where they can all hang out together and not bother us. Because you're not going to change them, and their numbers are growing all the time. Obviously a number of them are mentally ill and I'm not talking about them because they certainly are not the majority. The majority of them are just waste of space drug abusers. They are professional victims, woe is me.
link to original post

Fear is dangerous. It creates an environment in which it is acceptable to treat those experiencing poverty and homelessness with anger and hate.
Afraid, angry and ignorant is a hell of a way to go through life.
link to original post

Oh, oh, oh, that classic male manipulative technique- "Do what I want you to do, or else you're a coward!" No that doesn't work.

People have anger and hatred towards the bums because of what they do. They steal, they destroy, they assault, and they befoul. I do not care why, as their victims do not care why. And I am quite certain, if that unfortunate day comes when you are pushed to the ground and are having your head bashed with a piece of broken cinder block by one of these people, the last thought on your mind (so to speak) will not be "Why?"

That you wish to help these people is not a character flaw and many would say it speaks well of your character. Have you done anything at all for the people they victimize? Cleaned up any of their mess from public and private areas? Gone into a store and offered to pay for what they have stolen? Protected anyone from their aggression? Anything that is humbling and quiet, and unlike a prince showering the crowd with largess from his carriage? If you don't want them to be met with anger and hatred perhaps repairing the very mundane reasons why people feel this way about them would be effective.

You are free to think and act as you choose.


I believe that nothing cures like the milk of human kindness, and I encourage others to try it. I was taught from an early age to operate out of love, not fear, and honestly sympathize for those who weren't.
I received my First Communion in Second Grade. It was a massive event in my life, and my class practiced for it seemingly endlessly.
The ceremony was part of a Mass that featured multiple songs, and we seemingly rehearsed them for hours daily. The music played during Communion is stuck in my mind as if it were captured on video. The chorus was pretty simple-
" Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. When I was hungry, you gave me to eat, when I was thirsty, you gave me to drink, now enter into the Hall of My Father."
I've been blessed in my life and find myself in a position to help those who are less fortunate or who have allowed their burdens to overwhelm them.

Trivia how many answers start with x? )1 what x is a kind of gas used in some neon lights? )2 what x is the happy hookers first name? )3 the one they finally got what x is a lake in Mexico noted for its floating gardens?

Ticked me off to not remember X.2, avianrandy.
Thanks. Now I'm in a mood.

Sorry brother.i actually knew the first one...no clue on the others. Host mentioned unusual to have an x on the game board and then they went through 2 question before they got a correct answer on the third one. Bill Cullen blockbusters. One of my favorite game show hosts...very charismatic

Quote: Dieter

Happy Hooker

I got "Redgrave", and then couldn't even make the jump to "Lynn", because that doesn't start with an X.

link to original post

Many a Jewish kid in my neighborhood claimed to have been one of her victims while on family vacation in Puerto Rico.

Quote: billryan

You are free to think and act as you choose.


I believe that nothing cures like the milk of human kindness, and I encourage others to try it. I was taught from an early age to operate out of love, not fear, and honestly sympathize for those who weren't.
I received my First Communion in Second Grade. It was a massive event in my life, and my class practiced for it seemingly endlessly.
The ceremony was part of a Mass that featured multiple songs, and we seemingly rehearsed them for hours daily. The music played during Communion is stuck in my mind as if it were captured on video. The chorus was pretty simple-
" Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. When I was hungry, you gave me to eat, when I was thirsty, you gave me to drink, now enter into the Hall of My Father."
I've been blessed in my life and find myself in a position to help those who are less fortunate or who have allowed their burdens to overwhelm them.
link to original post

I have exactly the same background as you. And I sung that exact same song, and it stuck with me as well, to the point of remembering the correct words.

When you were in second grade, in Catholic school, did you always think your teachers were kind? I didn't, They made me do homework, rather than watch my favorite cartoons and game shows. And the memorization, learning everything by rote, expecting everything to be spelled perfectly, show my work in math class, faster, faster, and stood up in front of the class and shamed if I don't get it right. Sit still, and have good penmanship. What boy is capable of sitting still and having good penmanship?

I don't know anyone who had this experience who thought they were being treated kindly at the time, yet in reality they were. That training made all kinds of other things possible for me, even though there was a little bit of suffering involved at a time when it didn't make any difference. We recognize that only now, as adults. Because we don't always know what is kind. We only know what makes us feel good. Sometimes we can get a good approximation of it from our own feelings, but other times we deceive ourselves. Ayn Rand had something to say about this, describing altruism as a very dangerous vice, as it allows you to do what makes you feel good while passing it off as in the best interest of someone else. People are very good at rationalizing things. So many men have touched their daughters "to make sure she knows she's pretty," or gotten their sons to commit a crime "to toughen him up," or cheated on their wives "to make me more like the man she fell in love with again."

Where the bums are concerned I cannot rationalize helping them to remain in this lifestyle in which they harm those around them, because then I am abetting the harm they do. This is why I would rather they be in concentration camps, because then if I go and visit to practice the virtues of the Gospel I am only helping the less fortunate and not helping them to be a plague on someone else.

I look back at the hours I wasted practicing penmanship and how my grades in it lowered my average and realize how stupid they were.
What successful person needed good penmanship? Did good penmanship ever get anyone a job? The same thing with learning Roman numerals. Have you ever needed to divide MMLV by CXIV? An hour or two a day wasted for eight years.. We'd have a week of learning a new math concept and then six weeks of performing exercises.

I chose to follow the path laid out by St. Francis. You seem to follow that of Ayn Rand. I've read her books and reject her thoughts.
Different strokes for different folks. Steve Ditko turned me onto Rand. After I read Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, someone recommended The Art of Selfishness, and I thought it was satire..
It's not what I want for my life, and I tend to associate with people with whom I have things in common..

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Have you done anything at all for the people they victimize? Cleaned up any of their mess from public and private areas? Gone into a store and offered to pay for what they have stolen? Protected anyone from their aggression? Anything that is humbling and quiet, and unlike a prince showering the crowd with largess from his carriage? If you don't want them to be met with anger and hatred perhaps repairing the very mundane reasons why people feel this way about them would be effective.
link to original post

Please, do gooders never do any of that stuff. You are exactly correct when you say they are the prince throwing coins into the crowd of beggars as they ride about the streets in their carriage. They never get out of their carriage and clean up the messes that the beggars leave. When I see a homeless person I'm seeing someone who exhausted every avenue he had until he arrived at living in a tent on a sidewalk. There's no one left to call that he hasn't ripped off, lied to, coerced, made empty promises to, ripped off twice, begged cried and whined and pleaded with to support him. He's a lazy no account society reject who finds it so much easier to float through life high as a kite than to do anything productive. If you try and help him you're just playing into his scenario, you're the sucker and he's the one sucking you in. Best to put them all in one place and let them fight among themselves instead of trying to drag all of us down to their level.

On April 28, 1945, World War II in Europe was wrapping up. Patton's Army was taking hundreds of thousands of prisoners as the German Army surrendered before they could be transferred to the Eastern Front.
It had been decided that the Russians would be allowed to take Berlin, and the American High Command didn't want to waste G.I.s' lives with the end in sight.
Then, a frantic phone call from a German officer changed everything and set off a truly bizarre rescue mission.
Hitler had confiscated the famed Lipizzaner Stallions early in the war and the German Officer heard that a squad of Nazi SS troops had been ordered to destroy the herd. The Russians were advancing, and Hitler feared they would use the horses for food. With no other option, the horse handlers decided to appeal to the Americans for help, and knowing Patton's love of horses, they appealed to him personally. The horses were deep behind enemy lines, and Patton had orders not to initiate offensive operations.
The horses were twenty miles behind the lines, and it was known that two German divisions were refitting nearby. No one was sure where the SS troops were, or if they were real.
A 325-man "reconnaissance patrol" breached the German lines with help from an artillery barrage and avoided any conflict on the way to the school. Once there, they hit the first obstacle.
It turned out they weren't just rescuing the ninety Stallions, but also over two hundred mares, many of which were carrying foals, and there were many other rare breeds.
While scrounging for transportation, they encountered a group of almost 200 Allied POWs whose guards had abandoned them. They happily joined in. While preparing the horses, a pack of Russian Cossacks appeared, wanting to buy some of them. They'd been partisans working against the Nazis but they hated the Soviets just as much. The Cossacks agreed to help in return fo safe passage and the German garrison decided they didn't want to explain this to the SS so they joined in as well. As if by magic, refugees who'd been living in the woods joind the expedition. The caravan had grown to almost 1000 men and 400 horses and had lost the advantage of surprise.
Before they could leave the farm, they were attacked by the arriving SS troops. A short but fierce firefight left several dead on both sides, but the Nazis withdrew, awaiting their main force. They soon returned, in larger numbers but suddenly withdrew when a platoon of Soviet tanks appeared. The Soviets took off after the retreating Nazis. This was one of two occasions when regular German Army troops fought against the Nazi SS.
Due to the lack of transportation, many of the raiders returned to the American line by horseback, and some of the horses were herded alongside them.
Disney made a movie in 1963 that is loosely based on this raid, and it was one of the inspirations for Kelly's Heroes.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Have you done anything at all for the people they victimize? Cleaned up any of their mess from public and private areas? Gone into a store and offered to pay for what they have stolen? Protected anyone from their aggression? Anything that is humbling and quiet, and unlike a prince showering the crowd with largess from his carriage? If you don't want them to be met with anger and hatred perhaps repairing the very mundane reasons why people feel this way about them would be effective.
link to original post

Please, do gooders never do any of that stuff. You are exactly correct when you say they are the prince throwing coins into the crowd of beggars as they ride about the streets in their carriage. They never get out of their carriage and clean up the messes that the beggars leave. When I see a homeless person I'm seeing someone who exhausted every avenue he had until he arrived at living in a tent on a sidewalk. There's no one left to call that he hasn't ripped off, lied to, coerced, made empty promises to, ripped off twice, begged cried and whined and pleaded with to support him. He's a lazy no account society reject who finds it so much easier to float through life high as a kite than to do anything productive. If you try and help him you're just playing into his scenario, you're the sucker and he's the one sucking you in. Best to put them all in one place and let them fight among themselves instead of trying to drag all of us down to their level.
link to original post

Do we really know when we are being do-gooders?

Here's a name you might remember: Edith Keeler. Remember her? She wasn't a real person, she was a Star Trek character played by Joan Collins. Dr. McCoy has an accident with drugs, goes crazy, goes back in time and prevents Edith from being killed by a car. But it turns out she is also an influential pacifist, and in the universe where she is not killed by a car her peace movement delays the entry of the US into World War II allowing the Nazis to win.

Now there's an example of two do-gooders; the pacifist who wants nothing but peace for the world, and the doctor who would never intentionally allow harm to come to a person. But the good both of them do ends up causing indescribable bad and suffering that they would have never intended or predicted.

That we can predict only the most proximate effects of our causes absolves us from the guilt of their long-term effects, and also deprives us of the glory. The science fiction device of a time machine illustrates this principle. But those of us who fight our battles at the blackjack table already knew this:

I take a hit. Unskilled player next to me loses. "Hey, you changed the flow of the cards!"

"Yes, yes I did. But I did not know to what effect. I changed the course of the next hand, every hand after that, and all hands dealt with those cards until they are replaced. Entropy will never be removed from them until they are retired and reconstituted into complete and ordered decks to be sold in the gift shop. Some hands will be better for us than if I had not hit, and some will be worse. It's a chance we take, and I am not sitting at this table because I am afraid to take chances." Then sometimes I will rib him, and a few hands later when he has a big win, smile and inform him that this was why I changed the flow of the cards.

So just as I would not call Dr. McCoy a bad man for pushing the nice lady out of the way of the car, even though this act will ultimately lead to my being ordered into a gas chamber, I am not prepared to call anyone a reckless fool for feeding the bums, based on my opinion of what the remote effects of that could be. All any of us can hope to know is the proximate effects of our actions, and if the proximate effect of feeding the bum is that one person feels better for one day, that is a good effect, and I cannot know what the street is going to look like a week later any more than I can determine what the cards on the table will be next shoe based on my hitting or not hitting. I would be no more reasonable than the fellow fretting about the flow of the cards if I think I can. I can only know the proximate effect of taking a hit, based on basic strategy and the count, and that effect is only an increased or decreased probability of winning that one hand.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Have you done anything at all for the people they victimize? Cleaned up any of their mess from public and private areas? Gone into a store and offered to pay for what they have stolen? Protected anyone from their aggression? Anything that is humbling and quiet, and unlike a prince showering the crowd with largess from his carriage? If you don't want them to be met with anger and hatred perhaps repairing the very mundane reasons why people feel this way about them would be effective.
link to original post

Please, do gooders never do any of that stuff. You are exactly correct when you say they are the prince throwing coins into the crowd of beggars as they ride about the streets in their carriage. They never get out of their carriage and clean up the messes that the beggars leave. When I see a homeless person I'm seeing someone who exhausted every avenue he had until he arrived at living in a tent on a sidewalk. There's no one left to call that he hasn't ripped off, lied to, coerced, made empty promises to, ripped off twice, begged cried and whined and pleaded with to support him. He's a lazy no account society reject who finds it so much easier to float through life high as a kite than to do anything productive. If you try and help him you're just playing into his scenario, you're the sucker and he's the one sucking you in. Best to put them all in one place and let them fight among themselves instead of trying to drag all of us down to their level.
link to original post

Regarding automatic monkey's post: I personally have intervened to protect people from aggressive begging and homeless people who just went nuts and attacked someone, and have been threatened myself multiple times. I don't have a rose-tinted view on this issue.

Bob: I think you are over-generalizing. Some homeless people are just bad: that would be unsurprising, they are humans. But not all. A lot of victims of abuse. Many are veterans who can't cope on the outside and/or have PTSD. Some are quite harmless and interesting to talk too. Not all use drugs or alcohol. Some of them would have ootential if given a shot-I'm thinking especially of an afro-caribbean gentleman who sells newspapers who has some of the best interpersonal sales skills I've ever seen. But no one is going to give them a shot, because no one gives a guy missing teeth a shot.

In most continental european countries homelessness barely exists and it is because of an effective social safety net. I tend to think if people chose that lifestyle that would not be the case.

Doing good mostly involves doing superficial good. I can't see all the possible universes resulting from my actions. So I try and do the best things I can and hope for the best.

Quote: Archvaldor1

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Have you done anything at all for the people they victimize? Cleaned up any of their mess from public and private areas? Gone into a store and offered to pay for what they have stolen? Protected anyone from their aggression? Anything that is humbling and quiet, and unlike a prince showering the crowd with largess from his carriage? If you don't want them to be met with anger and hatred perhaps repairing the very mundane reasons why people feel this way about them would be effective.
link to original post

Please, do gooders never do any of that stuff. You are exactly correct when you say they are the prince throwing coins into the crowd of beggars as they ride about the streets in their carriage. They never get out of their carriage and clean up the messes that the beggars leave. When I see a homeless person I'm seeing someone who exhausted every avenue he had until he arrived at living in a tent on a sidewalk. There's no one left to call that he hasn't ripped off, lied to, coerced, made empty promises to, ripped off twice, begged cried and whined and pleaded with to support him. He's a lazy no account society reject who finds it so much easier to float through life high as a kite than to do anything productive. If you try and help him you're just playing into his scenario, you're the sucker and he's the one sucking you in. Best to put them all in one place and let them fight among themselves instead of trying to drag all of us down to their level.
link to original post

Regarding automatic monkey's post: I personally have intervened to protect people from aggressive begging and homeless people who just went nuts and attacked someone, and have been threatened myself multiple times. I don't have a rose-tinted view on this issue.

Bob: I think you are over-generalizing. Some homeless people are just bad: that would be unsurprising, they are humans. But not all. A lot of victims of abuse. Many are veterans who can't cope on the outside and/or have PTSD. Some are quite harmless and interesting to talk too. Not all use drugs or alcohol. Some of them would have ootential if given a shot-I'm thinking especially of an afro-caribbean gentleman who sells newspapers who has some of the best interpersonal sales skills I've ever seen. But no one is going to give them a shot, because no one gives a guy missing teeth a shot.

In most continental european countries homelessness barely exists and it is because of an effective social safety net. I tend to think if people chose that lifestyle that would not be the case.

Doing good mostly involves doing superficial good. I can't see all the possible universes resulting from my actions. So I try and do the best things I can and hope for the best.
link to original post

Social workers who work at or with homeless centers and rescue centers are excellent at identifying which homeless people are salvageable - those who are not addicts, nor alcoholics nor oppressed by a major severe mental illness. And from what I've seen, they tend to concentrate their efforts on these potentially-salvageable people - those that have PTSD or emotional issues or whatever. Of course their efforts are not 100% successful, but they do get a good fraction of these salvageable people off the street eventually.

These social programs vary from state-to-state. Maybe Arizona doesn't have much of a social worker program - I have no idea. But for a significant majority of homeless people, I suspect that they are not readily salvageable. Personally, I prefer to focus my own charity and giving on people in my community that are struggling rather than those who have given up or who are hopelessly addicted or mentally ill.

I have no idea how Arizona's homeless outreach compares to other states, but I know it isn't enough. I know they are understaffed and there is a hiring freeze. I also understand that a contract that delivered a truckload of produce to the local food bank is suspended for the summer, and the food bank will now have to pay $300 to get the food delivered when it resumes.
The city claims there are fewer than 1,000 homeless people in the town, but a homeless rights group claims Tucson police responded to 300-plus bodies of homeless people. If both stats are correct, the death rate for the homeless is 30% a year. I doubt it is.
I wish I had better solutions, and I pray someone comes up with one soon. Until then, I'll continue to do what I can, with what I have, where I am.
The food kitchen I'm volunteering at has been around since 1979. It used to feed a few dozen people in the 80s. Now they prepare over 150 daily and often exceed 200. I'm amazed by the scale of the operation. They distribute more food at one breakfast than I have in months. All from donations.

Quote: billryan

I have no idea how Arizona's homeless outreach compares to other states, but I know it isn't enough. I know they are understaffed and there is a hiring freeze.

I always wondered why the homeless shelters didn't just hire the homeless. Seems like that could solve multiple problems.

Quote: DRich

Quote: billryan

I have no idea how Arizona's homeless outreach compares to other states, but I know it isn't enough. I know they are understaffed and there is a hiring freeze.

I always wondered why the homeless shelters didn't just hire the homeless. Seems like that could solve multiple problems.
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Why do you think the vast vast majority of them are homeless. They are unhireable for anything. They're addicted to drugs, they steal everything they can get their hands on, why would you want somebody like that working for you.

Quote: DRich

Quote: billryan

I have no idea how Arizona's homeless outreach compares to other states, but I know it isn't enough. I know they are understaffed and there is a hiring freeze.

I always wondered why the homeless shelters didn't just hire the homeless. Seems like that could solve multiple problems.
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Lots of reasons. One is that they hire only management and everyone else is a volunteer, in many cases.

A shelter also shares many of its characteristics with a prison, and while prisoners are hired to do menial work in the prison, the prison has a lot more control over them, e.g., they always know where a prisoner is, so if he doesn't show up for his job they can go pull him out of his cell. Not possible with the homeless; they do whatever they want and typically do not want to put themselves in service of another person.

Backwards people usually are adherents of zero-sum morality, where labor is a degradation and there is no such thing as an honest day's pay for an honest day's work, and there is no such thing a mutually beneficial transaction- if you're not screwing somebody in a transaction, they're screwing you.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Backwards people usually are adherents of zero-sum morality, where labor is a degradation and there is no such thing as an honest day's pay for an honest day's work, and there is no such thing a mutually beneficial transaction- if you're not screwing somebody in a transaction, they're screwing you.
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That's really good, I read that 4 or 5 times. Many many people, most commonly double digit IQ people, have the attitude that if they're not screwing you in a transaction they're getting screwed by you. When of course none of that is true, but they have to believe it is true because they want to screw you. You run into this attitude in prison all the time when people say they're not guilty and shouldn't be there. What they really mean is they are operating under some convoluted moral code where in their minds they were getting screwed so anything they did to the other person was okay in their minds. And they really don't understand why they have to go to prison for it.

I always thought this pearl was an original Teddy Roosevelt quote, but there seem to be earlier attributions.

I'll paraphrase it- I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care.

Le Bum Survival - Steal flowers from graveyard and sell in front of hospital.

Got that from a movie.

Dave Ramsey talks about living on rice and beans. For those in poverty in Latin America, that is an aspiration.
If you were born in El Salvador and are homeless in Tucson at eighteen, you've won the jackpot.

Quote: billryan

Dave Ramsey talks about living on rice and beans. For those in poverty in Latin America, that is an aspiration.
If you were born in El Salvador and are homeless in Tucson at eighteen, you've won the jackpot.
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Aspiration (1) the medical procedure of removing fluids or tissues from the body using suction, and (2) the act of inhaling something other than air, like food or liquid, into the lungs.

If you inhaled rice and beans into your lungs you would probably die.

I had a bit of bad news today, as a project I hoped would be under $2500 nearly doubled. I'm repiping my house and the price didn't include new fixtures, which added almost $1,000. Now, the floor around the water heater is rotten and needs to be replaced.
I sit down to open my packages and watch the Yankee game.
Grisham steps up and homers, Judge homers on the first pitch as does Ben Rice. Five pitches, three home runs. Two batters later a fourth home run. My water heater is forgotten.
In a good mood, I open my package and there are five prints I'd won at an auction when I put in a last-minute one dollar bid. They were poorly described and I'd already won other stuff so the shipping was free.
The first print is a color print from the 1904 St. Louis Expo and is rare as it is in full color. Most photos from that era are B&W.
The next three are ornate portraits of minor British royalty: the Earl of Salisbury, the Marquess of Halifax, and the Lieutenant-General of Ireland. They are on heavy linen and might be 18th-century
They are ornate portraits, and are offered on eBay from around $20 up to $400.
The last one is an incredible full-page illustration of Andrew Jackson, cut out of Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper, Jan 19, 1856.
I couldn't find another copy of this image on the internet, and I doubt many copies of that day's newspaper exist. I'm going to have this one framed and hang it in my den.

Quote: billryan

I had a bit of bad news today, as a project I hoped would be under $2500 nearly doubled. I'm repiping my house and the price didn't include new fixtures, which added almost $1,000. Now, the floor around the water heater is rotten and needs to be replaced.

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Make sure they put a drain pan underneath the new heater. That may help save the floor for the next time the heater corrodes through.
(Not really an issue if your water heater is on a concrete floor next to a floor drain.)

The contractor was surprised there was no pan. It was installed after I bought the house but the installer evidently went cheap
The floor under the heater is wood and then there is a crawlway .he propped it up with a steel milkcrate and some 2x4s.just in case

A pan isn't going to do much if a water heater fails. That's an awful lot of water.

The best reason to use a pan is to collect the water to trigger a shutoff. In a lot of places you are required to have an electronically actuated valve that is triggered by a water leak that shuts off the supply line. Putting the sensor in the pan will cause it to be exposed to enough water to shut it off more quickly.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Heater-Auto-Shutoff-Valve-FS3-4NPT-V4-Controller-Water-Damage-Prevention-20001/317000415

Quote: Dieter

Quote: billryan

I had a bit of bad news today, as a project I hoped would be under $2500 nearly doubled. I'm repiping my house and the price didn't include new fixtures, which added almost $1,000. Now, the floor around the water heater is rotten and needs to be replaced.

link to original post

Make sure they put a drain pan underneath the new heater. That may help save the floor for the next time the heater corrodes through.
(Not really an issue if your water heater is on a concrete floor next to a floor drain.)
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Never in my life have I seen a water heater on a wood floor. Of course I have not been in a lot of mobile homes, that's a totally alien lifestyle to me.

Quote: EvenBob

Never in my life have I seen a water heater on a wood floor. Of course I have not been in a lot of mobile homes, that's a totally alien lifestyle to me.
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I had a mobile for a while. It's really not a different lifestyle. But it's only a bargain if you are somewhat proficient with tools. When I moved into mine I replaced the water heater just because it looked old and there was no installation date written on it. It's a <$400 purchase usually.

Cut two pieces of copper tubing, remove gas line, remove flue, carry out old unit, move in new unit, resolder tubing, reattach gas line and flue.

In that park I had neighbors who didn't really understand this stuff. They only saw things disappearing and reappearing elsewhere, mysterious devices being used, large objects seeming to move effortlessly. Only one time did I have a disaster from a repair. There was a lady next door, older lady who lived alone, and she told me she had a problem with one of her doors. A screw had come out of one of the hinges and it was misaligned. So I took out my large box of fasteners, went over and found an appropriate replacement, and fixed it as good as new. She thanked me, and I told her "No problem at all! Call me any time if you need a screw."

She was terrified. I was mortified.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Dieter

Quote: billryan

I had a bit of bad news today, as a project I hoped would be under $2500 nearly doubled. I'm repiping my house and the price didn't include new fixtures, which added almost $1,000. Now, the floor around the water heater is rotten and needs to be replaced.

link to original post

Make sure they put a drain pan underneath the new heater. That may help save the floor for the next time the heater corrodes through.
(Not really an issue if your water heater is on a concrete floor next to a floor drain.)
link to original post

Never in my life have I seen a water heater on a wood floor. Of course I have not been in a lot of mobile homes, that's a totally alien lifestyle to me.
link to original post

It happens fairly regularly in places where basements aren't common. In Wisconsin (and Michigan...), I see it mostly in vacation cabins - the water heater is just in a corner of the kitchenette or bathroom. In mobile homes, there is often a closet only accessible from the outside that is barely big enough for a water heater. There is supposed to be a drain pan and a leak detector alarm, but discount handyman services occasionally fail to deliver premium quality workmanship.

In other areas (like Oklahoma), I'm told that the trends vary, but a utility closet near the laundry equipment is fairly common.

Get your anodes checked. If they're gone, your tank is rotting, and what would have been a $100 preventative job is about to hit $1000+.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Dieter

Quote: billryan

I had a bit of bad news today, as a project I hoped would be under $2500 nearly doubled. I'm repiping my house and the price didn't include new fixtures, which added almost $1,000. Now, the floor around the water heater is rotten and needs to be replaced.

link to original post

Make sure they put a drain pan underneath the new heater. That may help save the floor for the next time the heater corrodes through.
(Not really an issue if your water heater is on a concrete floor next to a floor drain.)
link to original post

Never in my life have I seen a water heater on a wood floor. Of course I have not been in a lot of mobile homes, that's a totally alien lifestyle to me.
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I once had an apartment that had one like that. It was one of those 5-10 gal jobs for small places and you could hardly get a shower without draining it. IIRC it was under the sink or in the back of a closet or something.

I'm not sure what size mine is, but it is enough for four people to take showers back to back with hot water to spare. I was going to opt for a smaller one, which was cheaper, but I thought about the resale value. Selling a two-bedroom/2 bath with an inadequate water heater might not be easy. The bigger one was only a few hundred dollars more.

Quote: billryan

I'm not sure what size mine is, but it is enough for four people to take showers back to back with hot water to spare. I was going to opt for a smaller one, which was cheaper, but I thought about the resale value. Selling a two-bedroom/2 bath with an inadequate water heater might not be easy. The bigger one was only a few hundred dollars more.
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Where you live you could hang a solar shower outside most of the time and run it in a window.

I have a similar one that I use when camping. I've thought of getting a second one as I like long showers, but I only use them three or four days a year. It's pretty ingenious, but a poor substitute for a nice waterfall shower.

The couple that manages the campground I frequent just posted this. They spent over 100,000 and waited ten months to get this.

Quote: billryan

The couple that manages the campground I frequent just posted this. They spent over 100,000 and waited ten months to get this.

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There are some real horror stories online about new RV purchase. I believe one was a million dollar rig.

I remember a story where the husband was an engineer, and while trying to get it fixed he went back to the area where they were assembling the new rigs. At that point he realized why the result was so poor.

You can buy good ones, but there are some expensive bad products out there.

The consensus among the RV community is to avoid anything built after Covid. Sales of new models jumped so much that quality took a backseat to quantity. They seem to have escaped the bottom of the labor pool.
Scott is retired Army and left a job with Border Patrol to take an equity position at the park as managing couple. Really nice people.

Quote: rxwine

There are some real horror stories online about new RV purchase.

Just remember, in general RV's do not qualify for Lemon Law when you buy one.

How do you feel when you hear a U.S. geography fact that just doesn't make sense to you so you have to look it up and it just confirms your own naivete?

A common one now that you hear somewhat regularly is that Reno Nevada is west of Los Angeles. When I heard that 40 years ago I didn't believe it.

Today I heard one that just didn't make sense when not looking at a map. Part of West Virginia is north of New York City. As always, skeptical me had to look it up.

Two happiest days in an RV owner's life: the day they buy it and the day they sell it.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Two happiest days in an RV owner's life: the day they buy it and the day they sell it.
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RV --- RUINS VACATIONS

Why we hike.

Two hikers in the Czech Republic came across an old iron box off the path in a forest. Lying on top were a bunch of old snuffboxes that appeared to be made of gold. Next were a bunch of necklaces and bracelets that also seemed to be made of gold, but what they found next was astonishing - 498 gold coins, dating from 1808 to 1915.
Most of the coins are from the Hungarian/Austrian Empire but there were French, Italian and Russian coins as well.
Who put it there is a mystery, as is how it evidently sat undiscovered along the path for years.
The gold value is around $300,000 but the collectability of some items may push the final price much higher.

Quote: billryan

Why we hike.

Two hikers in the Czech Republic came across an old iron box off the path in a forest. Lying on top were a bunch of old snuffboxes that appeared to be made of gold. Next were a bunch of necklaces and bracelets that also seemed to be made of gold, but what they found next was astonishing - 498 gold coins, dating from 1808 to 1915.
Most of the coins are from the Hungarian/Austrian Empire but there were French, Italian and Russian coins as well.
Who put it there is a mystery, as is how it evidently sat undiscovered along the path for years.
The gold value is around $300,000 but the collectability of some items may push the final price much higher.
link to original post

Gold & Greed: The Hunt for Fenn's Treasure
2025
https://www.netflix.com/watch/81674802?trackId=268410292 interesting watch


I plan on doing some panning and sluicing this summer.

Quote: billryan

Why we hike.

Two hikers in the Czech Republic came across an old iron box off the path in a forest. Lying on top were a bunch of old snuffboxes that appeared to be made of gold. Next were a bunch of necklaces and bracelets that also seemed to be made of gold, but what they found next was astonishing - 498 gold coins, dating from 1808 to 1915.
Most of the coins are from the Hungarian/Austrian Empire but there were French, Italian and Russian coins as well.
Who put it there is a mystery, as is how it evidently sat undiscovered along the path for years.
The gold value is around $300,000 but the collectability of some items may push the final price much higher.
link to original post

Maybe hidden from the Nazis?