Gandler
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September 28th, 2022 at 6:20:17 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Gandler

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

I legit want to know why movies set in ancient or medieval times use the word "Godspeed" when the word wasn't even invented until 1250 or 1300 AD...

Gene
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By that logic you may as well ask why movies set in ancient times use dialogue in English at all (before it was invented).

Or why movies set in the Medieval-Renaissance Era use modern English instead of English from the time.

The simple answer is modern audiences would rather dialogue and phrases that are understood.
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Why movies set in the Medieval-Renaissance Era have every character with perfect teeth? Because literally no one who lived in those time periods had perfect teeth that were supernaturally white.
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Oh absolutely, cosmetically you can take the argument even further, why do all women in such movies have perfectly shaved legs and other areas when that was not a practice (and in reality should be completely hair), etc.... Heck even facially shaved men were rare (more common in higher classes and military which granted most Medieval movies feature).

It comes back to modern taste.

Everyone is willing to sacrifice historicity for taste and entertainment, and people are very selective about what they choose to be offended by when it comes to historical inaccuracies.
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I'm okay with non-modern women in movies looking and grooming like modern women, In some cases it's appealing to the taste of the audience. In other cases it's practical - try and find actresses that don't have bare legs and axillas. I'm also okay with fantasy movies and TV shows having things out of place. GRR Martin has a good quote about why Tolkien has potatoes in Middle Earth and why Martin therefore has corn in Westeros, even though in the fictional time periods neither plant was known to those in those locals.

I'm also okay with movies set in non-modern times using modern languages. After all the intended audience is modern people who need to understand the darn thing. But, for the love of all that is cinematic, use only idioms and expressions that were known to the time period at issue. And that includes scientific knowledge as well.

Gene
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Here is a different example (more modern).

I started watching Chernobyl (HBO, 2019) a couple days ago (not technically a movie, but miniseries/show, so close enough). I am four episodes in, and highly recommend it (so far it has been excellent, obviously have not finished it, but I know the history so I don't care about spoilers).

This is a show set in 1980s Russia (Soviet Union), however, it is in English (mostly for main dialogue), and clearly American English (why not UK English since that is geographically closer?). This is "bizarre" (by logical standards) because background characters speak Russian to each other, writings on the set are in Russian, etc.... but the dialogue is in English. Why would the primary characters happen to speak English to each other in the 1980s Soviet Union while all of the background characters (often their higher-ups) are speaking Russian to each other in the background? Surely, they would be thought of as American spies? There are also some phrases that I am 95% sure were never used by 1980s Soviets, like "so God help us".

In the presence of military supervision would two scientists greet each other in Russian, and then proceed to discuss sensitive plans in English in 1980s Soviet Russia? I doubt it......

Does this bother me? Not at all. Its obvious that it was made for modern American audiences. But, pretty much every dialogue sequence could be nitpicked by this logic.
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Believe it or not, the majority of the Soviet population during the Soviet years were religious.

Gene.
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Oh I know, I can speak to a lot about religion in the Soviet Union and transition into today, but it would get far too political for here

But, during the Soviet Union, two Soviet scientists in front of the military would not use such a phrase, nor would they speak in English to each other in such a time.
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They spoke English because the show was produced for American TV. Would American audiences prefer the show-intended for them-with all Russian dialogue? TV and movies are history's interpreters, not its chroniclers.

Gene
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But, that is exactly my point, which is why its not fair be upset at a phrase that did not exist yet in a time period, when the whole language did not exist in that time period.
Dialogue is made for modern audiences with modern languages and modern phrases.
GenoDRPh
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September 28th, 2022 at 7:09:29 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Gandler

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: Gandler

Quote: GenoDRPh

I legit want to know why movies set in ancient or medieval times use the word "Godspeed" when the word wasn't even invented until 1250 or 1300 AD...

Gene
link to original post



By that logic you may as well ask why movies set in ancient times use dialogue in English at all (before it was invented).

Or why movies set in the Medieval-Renaissance Era use modern English instead of English from the time.

The simple answer is modern audiences would rather dialogue and phrases that are understood.
link to original post



Why movies set in the Medieval-Renaissance Era have every character with perfect teeth? Because literally no one who lived in those time periods had perfect teeth that were supernaturally white.
link to original post



Oh absolutely, cosmetically you can take the argument even further, why do all women in such movies have perfectly shaved legs and other areas when that was not a practice (and in reality should be completely hair), etc.... Heck even facially shaved men were rare (more common in higher classes and military which granted most Medieval movies feature).

It comes back to modern taste.

Everyone is willing to sacrifice historicity for taste and entertainment, and people are very selective about what they choose to be offended by when it comes to historical inaccuracies.
link to original post



I'm okay with non-modern women in movies looking and grooming like modern women, In some cases it's appealing to the taste of the audience. In other cases it's practical - try and find actresses that don't have bare legs and axillas. I'm also okay with fantasy movies and TV shows having things out of place. GRR Martin has a good quote about why Tolkien has potatoes in Middle Earth and why Martin therefore has corn in Westeros, even though in the fictional time periods neither plant was known to those in those locals.

I'm also okay with movies set in non-modern times using modern languages. After all the intended audience is modern people who need to understand the darn thing. But, for the love of all that is cinematic, use only idioms and expressions that were known to the time period at issue. And that includes scientific knowledge as well.

Gene
link to original post



Here is a different example (more modern).

I started watching Chernobyl (HBO, 2019) a couple days ago (not technically a movie, but miniseries/show, so close enough). I am four episodes in, and highly recommend it (so far it has been excellent, obviously have not finished it, but I know the history so I don't care about spoilers).

This is a show set in 1980s Russia (Soviet Union), however, it is in English (mostly for main dialogue), and clearly American English (why not UK English since that is geographically closer?). This is "bizarre" (by logical standards) because background characters speak Russian to each other, writings on the set are in Russian, etc.... but the dialogue is in English. Why would the primary characters happen to speak English to each other in the 1980s Soviet Union while all of the background characters (often their higher-ups) are speaking Russian to each other in the background? Surely, they would be thought of as American spies? There are also some phrases that I am 95% sure were never used by 1980s Soviets, like "so God help us".

In the presence of military supervision would two scientists greet each other in Russian, and then proceed to discuss sensitive plans in English in 1980s Soviet Russia? I doubt it......

Does this bother me? Not at all. Its obvious that it was made for modern American audiences. But, pretty much every dialogue sequence could be nitpicked by this logic.
link to original post



Believe it or not, the majority of the Soviet population during the Soviet years were religious.

Gene.
link to original post



Oh I know, I can speak to a lot about religion in the Soviet Union and transition into today, but it would get far too political for here

But, during the Soviet Union, two Soviet scientists in front of the military would not use such a phrase, nor would they speak in English to each other in such a time.
link to original post



They spoke English because the show was produced for American TV. Would American audiences prefer the show-intended for them-with all Russian dialogue? TV and movies are history's interpreters, not its chroniclers.

Gene
link to original post



But, that is exactly my point, which is why its not fair be upset at a phrase that did not exist yet in a time period, when the whole language did not exist in that time period.
Dialogue is made for modern audiences with modern languages and modern phrases.
link to original post

Let's just say I prefer scientific, literary and idiom accuracy without anachronisms or timeline inaccuracies. That's what bother's me. Using English in a movie set in a foreign country that doesn't use the native tongue of the realm doesn't bother me.

Gene
Dieter
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September 28th, 2022 at 7:59:43 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins

The movie tries to explain this away using Binary code as a universal computer language. But it wouldn't explain how he would hack one of their computers in a matter of hours with a crash landed spaceship from 50 years earlier, then connect to the mother ship server in a a few minutes, which would somehow still be utilizing that same network from 50 years ago??
link to original post



I assume - perhaps incorrectly - that refitting an entire invasion armada of ships while underway would be impractical, so they may have maintained some significant degree of compatibility and interoperation.

Unless there is some advantage to be gained, why upgrade a functional advanced technology, when the species is resource constrained?
May the cards fall in your favor.
AZDuffman
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September 29th, 2022 at 4:10:08 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

Quote: AZDuffman

Gas an <$0.809 was correct for 1989 though.
link to original post

I find this the most unbelievable scene in the whole movie! ;)



And you could still buy leaded gas!
link to original post



I am still a little surprised that made it in. Often they will just remove the prices on the sign, hoping nobody cares.

In "Smokey and the Bandit" there is a sign for diesel at IIRC $0.479!
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
GenoDRPh
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September 29th, 2022 at 6:47:50 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

The movie tries to explain this away using Binary code as a universal computer language. But it wouldn't explain how he would hack one of their computers in a matter of hours with a crash landed spaceship from 50 years earlier, then connect to the mother ship server in a a few minutes, which would somehow still be utilizing that same network from 50 years ago??
link to original post



I assume - perhaps incorrectly - that refitting an entire invasion armada of ships while underway would be impractical, so they may have maintained some significant degree of compatibility and interoperation.

Unless there is some advantage to be gained, why upgrade a functional advanced technology, when the species is resource constrained?
link to original post



The aliens used our own satellites to communicate with each alien ship, which means their communications technology is at least partially compatible with Earth's technology. That's how Goldblum's character discovered the countdown clock and was also able to upload the virus.

Gene
darkoz
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September 29th, 2022 at 9:04:37 AM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

The movie tries to explain this away using Binary code as a universal computer language. But it wouldn't explain how he would hack one of their computers in a matter of hours with a crash landed spaceship from 50 years earlier, then connect to the mother ship server in a a few minutes, which would somehow still be utilizing that same network from 50 years ago??
link to original post



I assume - perhaps incorrectly - that refitting an entire invasion armada of ships while underway would be impractical, so they may have maintained some significant degree of compatibility and interoperation.

Unless there is some advantage to be gained, why upgrade a functional advanced technology, when the species is resource constrained?
link to original post



The aliens used our own satellites to communicate with each alien ship, which means their communications technology is at least partially compatible with Earth's technology. That's how Goldblum's character discovered the countdown clock and was also able to upload the virus.

Gene
link to original post



You can't even get Android and iPhone technology to be compatible. Go figure!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
TigerWu
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September 29th, 2022 at 9:19:59 AM permalink
If the alien invasion fleet has been "on the road" for decades, their systems might not have been upgraded at all. Or maybe they saw no need to do any upgrading. If it ain't broke....
Dieter
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September 29th, 2022 at 9:30:11 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

If the alien invasion fleet has been "on the road" for decades, their systems might not have been upgraded at all. Or maybe they saw no need to do any upgrading. If it ain't broke....
link to original post



It probably helps that the original manufacturers aren't forcing incompatible software updates every Tuesday.
May the cards fall in your favor.
GenoDRPh
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September 29th, 2022 at 10:59:13 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: TigerWu

If the alien invasion fleet has been "on the road" for decades, their systems might not have been upgraded at all. Or maybe they saw no need to do any upgrading. If it ain't broke....
link to original post



It probably helps that the original manufacturers aren't forcing incompatible software updates every Tuesday.
link to original post



Maybe their hardware and software was end-of-life and it was too expensive to upgrade?

Gene
Dieter
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September 29th, 2022 at 11:22:38 AM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Dieter

Quote: TigerWu

If the alien invasion fleet has been "on the road" for decades, their systems might not have been upgraded at all. Or maybe they saw no need to do any upgrading. If it ain't broke....
link to original post



It probably helps that the original manufacturers aren't forcing incompatible software updates every Tuesday.
link to original post



Maybe their hardware and software was end-of-life and it was too expensive to upgrade?

Gene
link to original post



My experience talking with people (admittedly human) who built things that fly in space is that they want to make them so they work just about forever. They really hate the idea of having to go fix it because they screwed up.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AZDuffman
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September 29th, 2022 at 11:27:10 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter



My experience talking with people (admittedly human) who built things that fly in space is that they want to make them so they work just about forever. They really hate the idea of having to go fix it because they screwed up.
link to original post



If only they worked at Chrysler instead of NASA.......
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
EvenBob
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September 29th, 2022 at 1:38:00 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: Joeman

Quote: AZDuffman

Gas an <$0.809 was correct for 1989 though.
link to original post

I find this the most unbelievable scene in the whole movie! ;)



And you could still buy leaded gas!
link to original post



I am still a little surprised that made it in. Often they will just remove the prices on the sign, hoping nobody cares.

In "Smokey and the Bandit" there is a sign for diesel at IIRC $0.479!
link to original post



When I moved to California 1977 I was shocked down to my socks the gas was 68 cents a gallon because when I left Michigan a week before I was paying I think 45 cents a gallon. $0.23 difference was a lot in those days. You could still buy a carton of cigarettes for around $5
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AZDuffman
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September 29th, 2022 at 1:39:12 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: Joeman

Quote: AZDuffman

Gas an <$0.809 was correct for 1989 though.
link to original post

I find this the most unbelievable scene in the whole movie! ;)



And you could still buy leaded gas!
link to original post



I am still a little surprised that made it in. Often they will just remove the prices on the sign, hoping nobody cares.

In "Smokey and the Bandit" there is a sign for diesel at IIRC $0.479!
link to original post



When I moved to California 1977 I was shocked down to my socks the gas was 68 cents a gallon because when I left Michigan a week before I was paying I think 45 cents a gallon. $0.23 difference was a lot in those days. You could still buy a carton of cigarettes for around $5
link to original post



I am old enough to remember when the carton cost what the pack cost today!

And I never smoked!
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
7NeverWins
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September 29th, 2022 at 7:06:24 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

The movie tries to explain this away using Binary code as a universal computer language. But it wouldn't explain how he would hack one of their computers in a matter of hours with a crash landed spaceship from 50 years earlier, then connect to the mother ship server in a a few minutes, which would somehow still be utilizing that same network from 50 years ago??
link to original post



I assume - perhaps incorrectly - that refitting an entire invasion armada of ships while underway would be impractical, so they may have maintained some significant degree of compatibility and interoperation.

Unless there is some advantage to be gained, why upgrade a functional advanced technology, when the species is resource constrained?
link to original post



The aliens used our own satellites to communicate with each alien ship, which means their communications technology is at least partially compatible with Earth's technology. That's how Goldblum's character discovered the countdown clock and was also able to upload the virus.

Gene
link to original post



So He could just plug his laptop into the Alien spaceship using a good old USB or Ethernet cable? Sorry no dice, he ain't connecting a Windows 95 laptop to Alien spacecrafts with the technology at the time!

Maybe if he had a Mac Book!
7NeverWins
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September 29th, 2022 at 7:16:05 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

The movie tries to explain this away using Binary code as a universal computer language. But it wouldn't explain how he would hack one of their computers in a matter of hours with a crash landed spaceship from 50 years earlier, then connect to the mother ship server in a a few minutes, which would somehow still be utilizing that same network from 50 years ago??
link to original post



I assume - perhaps incorrectly - that refitting an entire invasion armada of ships while underway would be impractical, so they may have maintained some significant degree of compatibility and interoperation.

Unless there is some advantage to be gained, why upgrade a functional advanced technology, when the species is resource constrained?
link to original post



Consider the fact that most computers TODAY need to update software regularly on a monthly basis and most PCs don't last more than a few years before needing to be replaced.

Now imagine a computer from 1995 and how quickly they ceased to function properly.

Then go back another 50 years to envision the computers on those 1940 Alien Spaceships and how quickly they would burn out. So it's fairly safe to say, those computers, no matter who made them aren't lasting 50+ years without needing replacement for SOME reason.

You literally see the "Web master" sitting in the control room before they launch the Nuke at him and the computer screen Skull laughs at him. I'm guessing his sole job is to maintain and update those computers on all ships.
UP84
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September 29th, 2022 at 7:33:54 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

When I moved to California 1977 I was shocked down to my socks the gas was 68 cents a gallon because when I left Michigan a week before I was paying I think 45 cents a gallon. $0.23 difference was a lot in those days. You could still buy a carton of cigarettes for around $5
link to original post

Yeah sure, and those gallons of California gas could have taken you to:
- Lake Tahoe
- Golden Gate Bridge
- Mir, Sequoia, and Redwood National Forests
- Yosemite
- Big Sur
- Napa and Sonoma Valley
- Joshua Tree
- Death Valley
- Pacific Coast Highway
- LA
- San Francisco
- Santa Barbara
- San Diego

While in Michigan those gallons of cheaper gas could have taken you to:
- Lake Huron
- I75
- Detroit
- Flint
- Kalamazoo
Dieter
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September 29th, 2022 at 10:05:28 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins

Consider the fact that most computers TODAY need to update software regularly on a monthly basis and most PCs don't last more than a few years before needing to be replaced.

Now imagine a computer from 1995 and how quickly they ceased to function properly.

Then go back another 50 years to envision the computers on those 1940 Alien Spaceships and how quickly they would burn out. So it's fairly safe to say, those computers, no matter who made them aren't lasting 50+ years without needing replacement for SOME reason.

You literally see the "Web master" sitting in the control room before they launch the Nuke at him and the computer screen Skull laughs at him. I'm guessing his sole job is to maintain and update those computers on all ships.
link to original post



Voyager probes are still phoning home, as far as I know.
It would seem possible to optimize a solution for reliability instead of performance.

Through my anthropomorphic lens, I see the guy in the control room as a security guard by the front gate, checking ID badges and parking stickers as vehicles come back in.
May the cards fall in your favor.
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 9:30:43 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

Consider the fact that most computers TODAY need to update software regularly on a monthly basis and most PCs don't last more than a few years before needing to be replaced.

Now imagine a computer from 1995 and how quickly they ceased to function properly.

Then go back another 50 years to envision the computers on those 1940 Alien Spaceships and how quickly they would burn out. So it's fairly safe to say, those computers, no matter who made them aren't lasting 50+ years without needing replacement for SOME reason.

You literally see the "Web master" sitting in the control room before they launch the Nuke at him and the computer screen Skull laughs at him. I'm guessing his sole job is to maintain and update those computers on all ships.
link to original post



Voyager probes are still phoning home, as far as I know.
It would seem possible to optimize a solution for reliability instead of performance.

Through my anthropomorphic lens, I see the guy in the control room as a security guard by the front gate, checking ID badges and parking stickers as vehicles come back in.
link to original post



I see so NASA was making the spaceships and computer systems for the ALIENS in ID???

Looked to me like the Alien in the box was running diagnostics on the ship and monitoring the rest of the fleet, but then again you might know that he works for NASA as well right?
Dieter
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September 30th, 2022 at 9:57:26 AM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins

Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

Consider the fact that most computers TODAY need to update software regularly on a monthly basis and most PCs don't last more than a few years before needing to be replaced.

Now imagine a computer from 1995 and how quickly they ceased to function properly.

Then go back another 50 years to envision the computers on those 1940 Alien Spaceships and how quickly they would burn out. So it's fairly safe to say, those computers, no matter who made them aren't lasting 50+ years without needing replacement for SOME reason.

You literally see the "Web master" sitting in the control room before they launch the Nuke at him and the computer screen Skull laughs at him. I'm guessing his sole job is to maintain and update those computers on all ships.
link to original post



Voyager probes are still phoning home, as far as I know.
It would seem possible to optimize a solution for reliability instead of performance.

Through my anthropomorphic lens, I see the guy in the control room as a security guard by the front gate, checking ID badges and parking stickers as vehicles come back in.
link to original post



I see so NASA was making the spaceships and computer systems for the ALIENS in ID???

Looked to me like the Alien in the box was running diagnostics on the ship and monitoring the rest of the fleet, but then again you might know that he works for NASA as well right?
link to original post



I'm saying that the alien marauders left some of their technology here for us to analyze for a few years before the incident, and it apparently still worked once power was restored.

Our friendly neighborhood cable guy had a minute to try to figure something out and get his technology rigged into the scout ship's systems before he hit the Jolly Roger button.
May the cards fall in your favor.
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 11:15:45 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

Consider the fact that most computers TODAY need to update software regularly on a monthly basis and most PCs don't last more than a few years before needing to be replaced.

Now imagine a computer from 1995 and how quickly they ceased to function properly.

Then go back another 50 years to envision the computers on those 1940 Alien Spaceships and how quickly they would burn out. So it's fairly safe to say, those computers, no matter who made them aren't lasting 50+ years without needing replacement for SOME reason.

You literally see the "Web master" sitting in the control room before they launch the Nuke at him and the computer screen Skull laughs at him. I'm guessing his sole job is to maintain and update those computers on all ships.
link to original post



Voyager probes are still phoning home, as far as I know.
It would seem possible to optimize a solution for reliability instead of performance.

Through my anthropomorphic lens, I see the guy in the control room as a security guard by the front gate, checking ID badges and parking stickers as vehicles come back in.
link to original post



I see so NASA was making the spaceships and computer systems for the ALIENS in ID???

Looked to me like the Alien in the box was running diagnostics on the ship and monitoring the rest of the fleet, but then again you might know that he works for NASA as well right?
link to original post



I'm saying that the alien marauders left some of their technology here for us to analyze for a few years before the incident, and it apparently still worked once power was restored.

Our friendly neighborhood cable guy had a minute to try to figure something out and get his technology rigged into the scout ship's systems before he hit the Jolly Roger button.
link to original post



Oh so you wrote the script too? Funny they never said anything about reverse engineering the alien technology to further Human space travel. It sure is fun grasping at straws and making things up that never happened to save face!

Your logic is about as preposterous as Will Smith learning to fly an Alien spaceship with no prior experience in the vessel and simply "observing it" in the midst of an emotional dog fight for all of 2 minutes!
GenoDRPh
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September 30th, 2022 at 11:21:47 AM permalink
Um, we all know its science *fiction*, right?

Gene
TigerWu
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September 30th, 2022 at 11:28:03 AM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins



Oh so you wrote the script too? Funny they never said anything about reverse engineering the alien technology to further Human space travel. It sure is fun grasping at straws and making things up that never happened to save face!
link to original post



There is a deleted scene that literally explains exactly that.

Why it was cut from the movie is a mystery, because it seems like very important information.
darkoz
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September 30th, 2022 at 11:39:01 AM permalink
Ok, Peter Jackson King Kong.

Naomi Watts should have died of frostbite on top of the empire state building with nothing on but a flimsy night gown.

The temperature that high must have been 40 below especially with the wind chill factor.

And don't suggest it might have been a warm night!

King Kong was just ice skating in central park!

Do you know how cold it has to get in NYC for the pond in Central Park to freeze over so thick that an 80,000 pound gorilla can slide his big ass across it?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 11:56:22 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: 7NeverWins



Oh so you wrote the script too? Funny they never said anything about reverse engineering the alien technology to further Human space travel. It sure is fun grasping at straws and making things up that never happened to save face!
link to original post



There is a deleted scene that literally explains exactly that.

Why it was cut from the movie is a mystery, because it seems like very important information.
link to original post



And hence it is just that DELETED, non-essential to the overall movie and therefore non-canon. You can't include it after the fact, just like you can't include alternate endings. These were filmed/written IN CASE the movie went that route or nowadays to hide the actual ending from being leaked.

The movie did choose to have their leading scientist played by Data from Star Trek, state "you just have to get past their technology which I'm sorry to say is FAR more advanced." Implying they have NOT found out how to utilize it and only did so in THIS canon in the horribly boring sequel 20 years later! I doubt that Cable guy Goldblum was secretly working on this his whole life or miraculously figured it out in a matter of hours.

Maybe in a Michael Bay Transformers film that sort of logic flies, but a TRUE visionary like Roland Emmerich would NEVER make a hack movie with plot holes!!??!
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 11:57:57 AM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Um, we all know its science *fiction*, right?

Gene
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True, but that doesn't exclude it from having plot holes!
Dieter
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September 30th, 2022 at 12:06:41 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins

Oh so you wrote the script too? Funny they never said anything about reverse engineering the alien technology to further Human space travel. It sure is fun grasping at straws and making things up that never happened to save face!

Your logic is about as preposterous as Will Smith learning to fly an Alien spaceship with no prior experience in the vessel and simply "observing it" in the midst of an emotional dog fight for all of 2 minutes!
link to original post



Nope. I didn't write the script, and I didn't act in the film.

I recognize that not every civilization may favor planned obsolescence, and even with our limited capacity, humans have managed to make stuff that lasts longer than a few years.

The notion that the aliens are bipedal and about our size strikes me as odd.
May the cards fall in your favor.
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 12:20:45 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

Oh so you wrote the script too? Funny they never said anything about reverse engineering the alien technology to further Human space travel. It sure is fun grasping at straws and making things up that never happened to save face!

Your logic is about as preposterous as Will Smith learning to fly an Alien spaceship with no prior experience in the vessel and simply "observing it" in the midst of an emotional dog fight for all of 2 minutes!
link to original post



Nope. I didn't write the script, and I didn't act in the film.

I recognize that not every civilization may favor planned obsolescence, and even with our limited capacity, humans have managed to make stuff that lasts longer than a few years.

The notion that the aliens are bipedal and about our size strikes me as odd.
link to original post



President Bill Paxton literally says "They're like locusts, they consume every natural resource and move on." While I can't infer that applies to their use of all their electronic equipment as well, it would suggest that they aren't the most efficient civilization at rationing said resources and likely burn things out rather quickly.

But I'm sure your copy of the Novelization of this AFI classic film would be able to elaborate on that!
GenoDRPh
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September 30th, 2022 at 12:25:27 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

Oh so you wrote the script too? Funny they never said anything about reverse engineering the alien technology to further Human space travel. It sure is fun grasping at straws and making things up that never happened to save face!

Your logic is about as preposterous as Will Smith learning to fly an Alien spaceship with no prior experience in the vessel and simply "observing it" in the midst of an emotional dog fight for all of 2 minutes!
link to original post



Nope. I didn't write the script, and I didn't act in the film.

I recognize that not every civilization may favor planned obsolescence, and even with our limited capacity, humans have managed to make stuff that lasts longer than a few years.

The notion that the aliens are bipedal and about our size strikes me as odd.
link to original post



Form follows function. Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and a few others are the most common elements in the universe. Therefore it makes sense that alien sustainable life uses those elements to, well, sustain itself. As for bipedalism, could be that makes such organisms more survivable compared to their four legged friends-and predator threats. Intelligent aliens that kinda sorta look like us, to me, make sense as we would be made out of the same chemicals and under the same circumstances and environments.

And besides, if the aliens weren't bipedal and about our size, Capt, Hiller wouldn't be able to pilot the alien spacecraft!

Gene
Dieter
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September 30th, 2022 at 12:37:25 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Dieter

Quote: 7NeverWins

Oh so you wrote the script too? Funny they never said anything about reverse engineering the alien technology to further Human space travel. It sure is fun grasping at straws and making things up that never happened to save face!

Your logic is about as preposterous as Will Smith learning to fly an Alien spaceship with no prior experience in the vessel and simply "observing it" in the midst of an emotional dog fight for all of 2 minutes!
link to original post



Nope. I didn't write the script, and I didn't act in the film.

I recognize that not every civilization may favor planned obsolescence, and even with our limited capacity, humans have managed to make stuff that lasts longer than a few years.

The notion that the aliens are bipedal and about our size strikes me as odd.
link to original post



Form follows function. Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and a few others are the most common elements in the universe. Therefore it makes sense that alien sustainable life uses those elements to, well, sustain itself. As for bipedalism, could be that makes such organisms more survivable compared to their four legged friends-and predator threats. Intelligent aliens that kinda sorta look like us, to me, make sense as we would be made out of the same chemicals and under the same circumstances and environments.

And besides, if the aliens weren't bipedal and about our size, Capt, Hiller wouldn't be able to pilot the alien spacecraft!

Gene
link to original post



I totally understand some basic similarities.
If they didn't want resources that this planet has, they would have picked a different planet.

There are way more insects on this planet than bipeds; their survivability and.competitiveness for resources seems reasonably effective. Perhaps we think we're better due to a survivorship bias.

As a chubby midlife biped, I can think of a number of carnivorous quadrupeds that I doubt I could outcompete in some contests.
May the cards fall in your favor.
unJon
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September 30th, 2022 at 12:44:25 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: 7NeverWins



Oh so you wrote the script too? Funny they never said anything about reverse engineering the alien technology to further Human space travel. It sure is fun grasping at straws and making things up that never happened to save face!
link to original post



There is a deleted scene that literally explains exactly that.

Why it was cut from the movie is a mystery, because it seems like very important information.
link to original post



And hence it is just that DELETED, non-essential to the overall movie and therefore non-canon. You can't include it after the fact, just like you can't include alternate endings. These were filmed/written IN CASE the movie went that route or nowadays to hide the actual ending from being leaked.

The movie did choose to have their leading scientist played by Data from Star Trek, state "you just have to get past their technology which I'm sorry to say is FAR more advanced." Implying they have NOT found out how to utilize it and only did so in THIS canon in the horribly boring sequel 20 years later! I doubt that Cable guy Goldblum was secretly working on this his whole life or miraculously figured it out in a matter of hours.

Maybe in a Michael Bay Transformers film that sort of logic flies, but a TRUE visionary like Roland Emmerich would NEVER make a hack movie with plot holes!!??!
link to original post



This post is very foolish in that it does the very credulity straining logic twists that you accuse Dieter of doing. I do so hope it was intentional irony, because it was very well done. *slow clap*
Last edited by: unJon on Sep 30, 2022
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
TigerWu
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September 30th, 2022 at 12:48:25 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins


And hence it is just that DELETED, non-essential to the overall movie and therefore non-canon. You can't include it after the fact, just like you can't include alternate endings. These were filmed/written IN CASE the movie went that route or nowadays to hide the actual ending from being leaked.

The movie did choose to have their leading scientist played by Data from Star Trek, state "you just have to get past their technology which I'm sorry to say is FAR more advanced." Implying they have NOT found out how to utilize it and only did so in THIS canon in the horribly boring sequel 20 years later! I doubt that Cable guy Goldblum was secretly working on this his whole life or miraculously figured it out in a matter of hours.

Maybe in a Michael Bay Transformers film that sort of logic flies, but a TRUE visionary like Roland Emmerich would NEVER make a hack movie with plot holes!!??!
link to original post



I don't know, man, but you seem to be getting awfully upset about a 25-year-old big budget B-movie made by the same guy who did Universal Soldier, the Day After Tomorrow, and a Godzilla movie. We're not exactly talking high cinema here....LOL....
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 1:09:44 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: 7NeverWins


And hence it is just that DELETED, non-essential to the overall movie and therefore non-canon. You can't include it after the fact, just like you can't include alternate endings. These were filmed/written IN CASE the movie went that route or nowadays to hide the actual ending from being leaked.

The movie did choose to have their leading scientist played by Data from Star Trek, state "you just have to get past their technology which I'm sorry to say is FAR more advanced." Implying they have NOT found out how to utilize it and only did so in THIS canon in the horribly boring sequel 20 years later! I doubt that Cable guy Goldblum was secretly working on this his whole life or miraculously figured it out in a matter of hours.

Maybe in a Michael Bay Transformers film that sort of logic flies, but a TRUE visionary like Roland Emmerich would NEVER make a hack movie with plot holes!!??!
link to original post



I don't know, man, but you seem to be getting awfully upset about a 25-year-old big budget B-movie made by the same guy who did Universal Soldier, the Day After Tomorrow, and a Godzilla movie. We're not exactly talking high cinema here....LOL....
link to original post



Not upset at all, quite amused that your group of internet know-it-all types are so adamant to disprove something obvious based on conjecture. The thread is titled "Movie Plot Holes" and I've named one.

If you folks weren't so quick to argue, you might use that time to add to the thread and name one of your own! But rather your mentality of running new people off takes over and you prefer to do the former instead of the latter.

I could care less if you agree with me, but don't try and use scenes that were "supposed to make it" or loosely tied in to the plot as evidence when they wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Special Features on a DVD menu!
TigerWu
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September 30th, 2022 at 1:31:38 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins


Not upset at all, quite amused that your group of internet know-it-all types are so adamant to disprove something obvious based on conjecture. The thread is titled "Movie Plot Holes" and I've named one.

If you folks weren't so quick to argue, you might use that time to add to the thread and name one of your own! But rather your mentality of running new people off takes over and you prefer to do the former instead of the latter.

I could care less if you agree with me, but don't try and use scenes that were "supposed to make it" or loosely tied in to the plot as evidence when they wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Special Features on a DVD menu!
link to original post



LOL.... Dude....take a deep breath... relax....

No one is arguing with you. No one is trying to "run you off."

No one is saying the movie as released makes sense. It definitely has plot holes. The computer thing is a plot hole. We're simply pointing out that there is a deleted scene that would have explained it. That's it.

The computer thing is a plot hole. Period. There is a deleted scene that "de-plot-holes" it. Period. I'm not sure what else needs to be said, but you seem to be getting awfully worked up over this....LOL
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 2:05:47 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: 7NeverWins


Not upset at all, quite amused that your group of internet know-it-all types are so adamant to disprove something obvious based on conjecture. The thread is titled "Movie Plot Holes" and I've named one.

If you folks weren't so quick to argue, you might use that time to add to the thread and name one of your own! But rather your mentality of running new people off takes over and you prefer to do the former instead of the latter.

I could care less if you agree with me, but don't try and use scenes that were "supposed to make it" or loosely tied in to the plot as evidence when they wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Special Features on a DVD menu!
link to original post



LOL.... Dude....take a deep breath... relax....

No one is arguing with you. No one is trying to "run you off."

No one is saying the movie as released makes sense. It definitely has plot holes. The computer thing is a plot hole. We're simply pointing out that there is a deleted scene that would have explained it. That's it.

The computer thing is a plot hole. Period. There is a deleted scene that "de-plot-holes" it. Period. I'm not sure what else needs to be said, but you seem to be getting awfully worked up over this....LOL
link to original post



Says the guy who is "Laughing out loud" multiple times while typing? A tad overkill no? Probably just trying to mask that insecurity!

Again, deleted scenes are about as valid as alternate endings are. They can't be introduced AFTER the fact as proof that "well they meant to say this!" When the reality is, if they wanted to include it and felt it was pertinent to the movie, it would have made the cut.

That's a kin to me saying, the Alternate ending to (insert random movie) shows they MEANT to do that! But it's a conscious decision made to exclude it because it serves no purpose or furthers the story as written in any way.

In this case, it doesn't change the fact that the Pentagon, the CIA and Nasa couldn't figure out this "far advanced" Alien technology and somehow the random cable guy in NYC who rides a bicycle and beats his elderly father in chess while mulling over his failed marriage is the ONLY person on Earth who can magically plug his Windows 95 laptop into an Alien craft and hack into a Mother ship with little to no trouble at all?
GenoDRPh
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September 30th, 2022 at 2:18:32 PM permalink
Why is the computer thing a plot hole? The alien craft on Earth was dormant until the aliens showed up en masse and started transmitting a radio signal as a countdown to start the attack. They used our own satellites, using electromagnetic frequencies known to us. This means their communications were discoverable by us...which David Levinson did. He also discovered that the signal was a countdown timer. Knowing that the aliens used communications technology known to us, and that the signal awoke the dormant craft, David got to work-as good engineer would-analyzing the newly active craft and discovered the weakness or weaknessses that allowed him to create the virus. Since he already cracked the communications methods, it was relatively easy to create a method to upload the virus.

Gene
GenoDRPh
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September 30th, 2022 at 2:29:56 PM permalink
Let me know when insects-who have limited intelligence, are size-limited due to their anatomy and do not have prehensile extremities like hands, create electromagnetic telecommunications and space faring vessels. Heck, the octopuss is the only invertebrate that is known to use tools.

Humans weren't meant to live past age 45 or so. Become sexually mature, create little humans, raise said little humans until they themselves are sexually mature and can fend for themselves and create their own little humans, and then we start to die off more and more of one disease or affliction or another. Could be us chubby midlife bipeds are designed to be food for carnivorous quadrupeds, after we've outlived out usefulness? Nature's way of culling the herd!

Gene
gordonm888
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September 30th, 2022 at 2:34:17 PM permalink
Film writers screw up scenes with technology more often than not.

Examples:
People hack into the traffic lights to make them all turn green for their friends' getaway car.
In 5 seconds they hack into the pentagon and get a list of soldiers at a certain military base on a certain weekend.
et cetera

Writers make "being nerdy" a superpower and create action in films that makes no flippety-flop sense but that exists just to move the plot along.

Its true in Independence Day and in hundreds of TV shows and movies.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 2:34:25 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Why is the computer thing a plot hole? The alien craft on Earth was dormant until the aliens showed up en masse and started transmitting a radio signal as a countdown to start the attack. They used our own satellites, using electromagnetic frequencies known to us. This means their communications were discoverable by us...which David Levinson did. He also discovered that the signal was a countdown timer. Knowing that the aliens used communications technology known to us, and that the signal awoke the dormant craft, David got to work-as good engineer would-analyzing the newly active craft and discovered the weakness or weaknessses that allowed him to create the virus. Since he already cracked the communications methods, it was relatively easy to create a method to upload the virus.

Gene
link to original post




Incorrect, he took a binary code printout and decoded that it was a count down. He then reported that count down to the President and Sec. of Defense and was laughed at. He ran into his ex-wife, got drunk and upset while the best minds in the pentagon couldn't figure out how to bring the alien shield's down. He then simply had an epiphany while hungover from his Old Hebrew father, plugged a laptop into an alien spacecraft using a connecting cable that was magically transported down to him, the craft was inoperable for 50 years and had old components that had never been maintained, tested or updated.

He then has an Airforce pilot who never flew an aircraft out of the atmosphere, take him into outerspace without so much as a bump or slight amount of turbulence(when the motion sickness gag was established) in said 50+ year old Alien ship to conveniently dock with the mother ship, easily connect to the server without a slight delay and send over a magical virus that knew how disrupt all shields on all ships.

Yup, nothing strange about that all, perfectly logical!
GenoDRPh
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September 30th, 2022 at 2:52:54 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins

Quote: GenoDRPh

Why is the computer thing a plot hole? The alien craft on Earth was dormant until the aliens showed up en masse and started transmitting a radio signal as a countdown to start the attack. They used our own satellites, using electromagnetic frequencies known to us. This means their communications were discoverable by us...which David Levinson did. He also discovered that the signal was a countdown timer. Knowing that the aliens used communications technology known to us, and that the signal awoke the dormant craft, David got to work-as good engineer would-analyzing the newly active craft and discovered the weakness or weaknessses that allowed him to create the virus. Since he already cracked the communications methods, it was relatively easy to create a method to upload the virus.

Gene
link to original post




Incorrect, he took a binary code printout and decoded that it was a count down. He then reported that count down to the President and Sec. of Defense and was laughed at. He ran into his ex-wife, got drunk and upset while the best minds in the pentagon couldn't figure out how to bring the alien shield's down. He then simply had an epiphany while hungover from his Old Hebrew father, plugged a laptop into an alien spacecraft using a connecting cable that was magically transported down to him, the craft was inoperable for 50 years and had old components that had never been maintained, tested or updated.

He then has an Airforce pilot who never flew an aircraft out of the atmosphere, take him into outerspace without so much as a bump or slight amount of turbulence(when the motion sickness gag was established) in said 50+ year old Alien ship to conveniently dock with the mother ship, easily connect to the server without a slight delay and send over a magical virus that knew how disrupt all shields on all ships.

Yup, nothing strange about that all, perfectly logical!
link to original post



Works for me. I certainly enjoyed the movie. Anyway, I think you;re extrapolating things that weren't in the movie at all, or have other plausible explanations.

Gene
Dieter
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September 30th, 2022 at 3:04:34 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins

Incorrect, he took a binary code printout and decoded that it was a count down. He then reported that count down to the President and Sec. of Defense and was laughed at. He ran into his ex-wife, got drunk and upset while the best minds in the pentagon couldn't figure out how to bring the alien shield's down. He then simply had an epiphany while hungover from his Old Hebrew father, plugged a laptop into an alien spacecraft using a connecting cable that was magically transported down to him, the craft was inoperable for 50 years and had old components that had never been maintained, tested or updated.

He then has an Airforce pilot who never flew an aircraft out of the atmosphere, take him into outerspace without so much as a bump or slight amount of turbulence(when the motion sickness gag was established) in said 50+ year old Alien ship to conveniently dock with the mother ship, easily connect to the server without a slight delay and send over a magical virus that knew how disrupt all shields on all ships.

Yup, nothing strange about that all, perfectly logical!
link to original post



50 years old, give it power, it works?
This does not startle me. Numerous transistor radios and old calculators power right up with new batteries.

Is it really so great a leap in plausibility that a craft equipped with wireless remote charging, energy weapons, shields, and propulsion unknown to us might have some way to protect itself from turbulence?
May the cards fall in your favor.
7NeverWins
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September 30th, 2022 at 3:06:11 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: 7NeverWins

Quote: GenoDRPh

Why is the computer thing a plot hole? The alien craft on Earth was dormant until the aliens showed up en masse and started transmitting a radio signal as a countdown to start the attack. They used our own satellites, using electromagnetic frequencies known to us. This means their communications were discoverable by us...which David Levinson did. He also discovered that the signal was a countdown timer. Knowing that the aliens used communications technology known to us, and that the signal awoke the dormant craft, David got to work-as good engineer would-analyzing the newly active craft and discovered the weakness or weaknessses that allowed him to create the virus. Since he already cracked the communications methods, it was relatively easy to create a method to upload the virus.

Gene
link to original post




Incorrect, he took a binary code printout and decoded that it was a count down. He then reported that count down to the President and Sec. of Defense and was laughed at. He ran into his ex-wife, got drunk and upset while the best minds in the pentagon couldn't figure out how to bring the alien shield's down. He then simply had an epiphany while hungover from his Old Hebrew father, plugged a laptop into an alien spacecraft using a connecting cable that was magically transported down to him, the craft was inoperable for 50 years and had old components that had never been maintained, tested or updated.

He then has an Airforce pilot who never flew an aircraft out of the atmosphere, take him into outerspace without so much as a bump or slight amount of turbulence(when the motion sickness gag was established) in said 50+ year old Alien ship to conveniently dock with the mother ship, easily connect to the server without a slight delay and send over a magical virus that knew how disrupt all shields on all ships.

Yup, nothing strange about that all, perfectly logical!
link to original post



Works for me. I certainly enjoyed the movie. Anyway, I think you;re extrapolating things that weren't in the movie at all, or have other plausible explanations.

Gene
link to original post



No different than what you are doing by over simplifying complexities in technology with the excuse "well, he's just really smart!"

Agreed, it was an enjoyable movie and Goldblum's performance was probably the best part, even if it was somewhat similar to his character in Jurassic Park. Doesn't mean we can't pick apart things we enjoyed and call a spade, a spade!

Moving on, how about discussing Jurassic Park? Aside from the obvious genetic cloning inaccuracies and the fact that most of the "Dina-Sarrrrs" were not from the Jurassic Period at all, what are your thoughts on the Disappearing platform in the T-Rex enclosure?

Was it some sort of motion activated platform that came and went as the T-Rex approached and it simply malfunctioned? Or did they mess up and forget to explain why it was there when Rexy escaped and vanished when the Jeep fell down the same path?
Dieter
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September 30th, 2022 at 3:07:57 PM permalink
Quote: 7NeverWins

In this case, it doesn't change the fact that the Pentagon, the CIA and Nasa couldn't figure out this "far advanced" Alien technology and somehow the random cable guy in NYC who rides a bicycle and beats his elderly father in chess while mulling over his failed marriage is the ONLY person on Earth who can magically plug his Windows 95 laptop into an Alien craft and hack into a Mother ship with little to no trouble at all?
link to original post



I believe he clearly states that all cable guys can do this.
It was merely coincidence that he happened to be the one who did.
May the cards fall in your favor.
smoothgrh
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September 30th, 2022 at 5:17:24 PM permalink
While I've enjoyed the discussion thus far of all the examples of the ridiculousness of movies, I feel like most of what has been described merely falls into the category of "suspension of disbelief." For instance, surviving a harsh environment or manipulating alien technology seems unlikely, but the audience is expected to believe it could be done.

A "true" plot hole comes in when the characters are doing things that don't make sense in the context of the plot.

I just watched the Pitch Meeting for "The Tomorrow War" (a movie I doubt that I'd ever watch), and it seems to have many of the "true" plot holes, in addition to run-of-the-mill suspensions of disbelief.

So if you can ignore all those plot holes, enjoying the movie should be super easy, barely and inconvenience!
EvenBob
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September 30th, 2022 at 10:58:38 PM permalink
Quote: UP84


While in Michigan those gallons of cheaper gas could have taken you to:
- Lake Huron
- I75
- Detroit
- Flint
- Kalamazoo
link to original post



I live in West Michigan 40 miles from Lake Michigan and I never go to the eastern part of the state. Nobody goes to Kalamazoo unless they have to. Michigan is one of the biggest tourist destinations in the Midwest summer and winter. Even Ernest Hemingway and his family came here every summer on vacation. Now that it's October we will be invaded by thousands of out-of-state people going on color tours. It's already started in the upper peninsula.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Dieter
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October 1st, 2022 at 1:35:48 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I live in West Michigan 40 miles from Lake Michigan and I never go to the eastern part of the state. Nobody goes to Kalamazoo unless they have to. Michigan is one of the biggest tourist destinations in the Midwest summer and winter. Even Ernest Hemingway and his family came here every summer on vacation. Now that it's October we will be invaded by thousands of out-of-state people going on color tours. It's already started in the upper peninsula.
link to original post



I mostly agree with the assessment of Ka'zoo.

There are a lot of scenic tourist traps along the west coast, convenient to Chicagoans escaping for the weekend.



I always thought Climax missed an opportunity.
"Bring your wife to Climax on her honeymoon!" could be a great slogan, and could drive a lot of bed & breakfast traffic.
I'm guessing all the humorists are in Hell.
May the cards fall in your favor.
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